amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-15 EAST LONDON 2 XOLINI TYALI AM7998/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53477&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99061418_eln_990615el.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Obose who is the next witness? MR OBOSE Thank you Mr Chairman. The next witness Mr Chairman is Mr X Tyali. His application is at pages 65 to 71 of the paginated bundle. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Obose. XOLINI TYALI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Obose. MR OBOSE Thank you, Mr Chairman. EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE Mr Tyali, you are a policeman. Where are you stationed? MR TYALI Yes. I am stationed at Zwelitsha. MR OBOSE Are you familiar with the events of that date, 22nd March and the 23rd as related by the witnesses before you, applicants before you? MR TYALI Yes, that is correct. MR OBOSE Do you confirm basically what these applicants have said with regard to those incidents, those that you know of? MR TYALI Yes, that is correct. MR OBOSE Just very briefly, did you attend this meeting yourself? MR TYALI Yes, I attended the meeting on that day. I was at Tech, I was in class. I was called to leave the students and go to the meeting at the hall. We did as we were told. MR OBOSE Could you enter inside the hall or were you outside? MR TYALI I was outside the hall. I was sitting under the tree in the shade. MR OBOSE Were you able to follow the proceedings? MR TYALI Yes, I could follow the procedure because a loud speaker was used. MR OBOSE Did you in any way participate in the goings on on that day, or evening? MR TYALI Yes, I took part later because it was announced that because Capt Sawuti was implicated or affected, they said anyone who had a key or a car, he must go and fetch Capt Sawuti in his house and I left with Nqinana because he was the one who had a key to a car and I occupied a passenger seat. Commander Toto and ...(indistinct) they drove another car and we went to his house. MR OBOSE Roughly what time was this? MR TYALI If my memory serves me well, I think it was between 10 and 11 in the night. MR OBOSE Was he assaulted, pointed with firearms etc? MR TYALI I do not remember seeing him being assaulted. We did not assault him. We did not even point him with guns but what was done to him, we requested his firearm to be with us on our way to the college. MR OBOSE When you got to the college, what happened? MR TYALI We put him in and he went up to join the other officers who were on the podium and then I remained inside the hall thereafter. MR OBOSE How was the mood in the hall when you got back? MR TYALI The police were singing freedom songs, there was a large number of policemen, there was noise inside the hall. MR OBOSE And in the morning when you got to the hall first, was there already singing or not? MR TYALI They were still singing even in the morning. MR OBOSE In the morning? MR TYALI They were singing freedom songs. MR OBOSE Thank you, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE CHAIRPERSON Any questions Mr Nompozolo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO Mr Tyali, what was the reason for you and other policemen to fetch Mr Sawuti? MR TYALI It was announced through the loudspeaker that anyone with the car keys should go and fetch Serg Sawuti and Serg Nqinana, the one who was with me, had the keys and he knew where Serg Sawuti's house was situated, and we got into the car. MR NOMPOZOLO Now you did not have the keys, you did not know where he stays, why did you have to go and fetch him? MR TYALI The reason for me to leave, it is because Nqinana requested me. I actually, I left with him because we were together and he had a key. I was not forced to go with him, but the only thing is that we were always together at that particular time. MR NOMPOZOLO And why was it necessary for two cars to fetch him? MR TYALI The second car that was driven by Serg Kamana followed us. Perhaps they were just interested because we were just on our way to his house, but when we got out of the gate we just saw them following us. MR NOMPOZOLO When you fetched Mr Sawuti did you know that Brig Gqozo had already resigned or stepped down? MR TYALI We had heard about that. We heard that Brig Gqozo had stepped down. We got that information from the other police who were in the hall. MR NOMPOZOLO Do you know who gave instructions that Mr Sawuti should be fetched? MR TYALI Different people were using this loudspeaker, the microphone, I cannot remember who exactly issued that instruction, but we just heard that. MR NOMPOZOLO Am I correct to say you did not know for what purpose was Mr Sawuti fetched? MR TYALI As I was outside, sitting outside, we could hear what was being discussed in the hall. The issue was about money squandering and a person who was talking mentioned Serg Sawuti's name and it was said that someone who's got the car keys should go and fetch Serg Sawuti. MR NOMPOZOLO So your understanding when you fetched Capt Sawuti was that he must have misappropriated funds? MR TYALI It came that way and I was in the car of someone who was sent to do that, to fetch him, that is what I heard. We heard that he was also implicated. MR NOMPOZOLO What did come to your mind when you fetched him? Did you want him to account for the money or did you want him to be arrested? MR TYALI It is because his name was mentioned and the instruction was issued to go and fetch him so that he could come and answer for himself. MR NOMPOZOLO So his presence there according to you, was to answer to the allegations but not to join the broader police forum which was there, for any other purpose other than to answer the allegations? MR TYALI As it is already mentioned that the meeting was to remove Brig Gqozo, but because it was late in the night there were other issues that were affecting police that were discussed, that is where this one was mentioned. MR NOMPOZOLO These were police grievances which had nothing to do with politics. Is it correct? MR TYALI Those are the matters that came up in the hall, but the purpose of the meeting itself was to remove Brig Gqozo, but there were other matters that came up that were actually troubling the police. MR NOMPOZOLO When did you get to know that the meeting, the purpose of the meeting was to remove Brig Gqozo? MR TYALI I got to know that when I was inside the hall when someone told me that Brig Gqozo is to be removed. But when I went there I knew nothing. Even the police at the police meeting, I was in class when I saw the vans approaching the hall. I was busy dealing with students and I was called. We were told to leave everything and go to the hall as Gen Nqoya wanted to see the police there. MR NOMPOZOLO When did it come, exactly what time did it come to your knowledge that the purpose was to remove Brig Gqozo? MR TYALI When I saw the soldiers coming at the gate. When the soldiers came I was at the gate and they got in and they said they heard that the aim was to remove Brig Gqozo and they were also on the side of the police. We opened for them to get inside and they also safeguarded the place, that is when I got that information. MR NOMPOZOLO Before that what did you think was the purpose of the meeting? MR TYALI As I've explained that when I came the police were already there and Gen Nqoya was not there and I heard that he said he was coming back. I heard that he is the one who called the police. This issue of removing Brig Gqozo, I got that information from these soldiers. MR NOMPOZOLO Had those soldiers not told you, you wouldn't have known? MR TYALI I am certain that if I did ask the people who were there, I would get that information in time, but I did not ask. MR NOMPOZOLO When you fetched Mr Sawuti at his house, you were not fetching him for the purpose of removing Brig Gqozo. Am I correct? MR TYALI I had already heard from the soldiers that the aim was to remove Brig Gqozo and now the police were telling the people to go and - telling anyone who had the car keys to go and fetch Mr Sawuti and that was in connection with maladministration of funds. MR NOMPOZOLO Yes, therefore you confirm that it was not to remove Brig Gqozo. When Mr Sawuti was fetched, the purpose was not to remove Brig Gqozo, not so? It was for him to answer about misappropriation of funds. MR TYALI Will you please repeat the question Sir? MR NOMPOZOLO When Mr Sawuti was fetched from his house the purpose was not to remove Brig Gqozo, it was for him, that is for Mr Sawuti to answer about misappropriation of funds. To account for the misappropriation of funds. MR TYALI I can say yes because whoever was announcing that he said anyone with the car keys should go and fetch Capt Sawuti because his name was implicated among the people who were maladministering the funds, that is when I got out. MR NOMPOZOLO And when you accompanied whoever went there, your aim was not to arrest Mr Sawuti for misappropriation of funds, it was to kidnap him, take him to the police college to join other police officers who were already held hostage there? MR TYALI When we went to fetch Capt Sawuti we were told to come and fetch him because he was supposed to come and answer for himself as the implicated person and when we got into his house we told him so. MR NOMPOZOLO And is it correct that you knocked in his house on the windows and on the door and you were shouting at his house that he is a thief, that he has misappropriated funds? MR TYALI It that did happen, I am asking for forgiveness but all I know is that we knocked nicely at the door and his brother opened the door and we talked to him and he told us to wait for him at the lounge, he was busy dressing up and then he finished and then he told us to go. If he says we knocked at the windows shouting at him saying that he was a thief, I apologise for that, but I do not remember seeing that happening. MR NOMPOZOLO What did you say when you met him in his house? What did you say to him? What was the reason for you to be there? MR TYALI When this young man opened the door we asked for Capt Sawuti and this young man went to call him and then he inquired what was the visit about. We told him that we were requested to go and fetch him because his name was implicated among the persons who had maladministered funds and he told us that he wanted to go and dress up and he came back. When we got into the car we requested his firearm to be with us, not to be with him. And then we took him to the hall and he joined the other officers on the podium. MR NOMPOZOLO Why did you request his firearm? What was the purpose? Was it to disarm him or was it to say that he's not fit to possess a service firearm? MR TYALI We don't know what would come to his mind as a person who was implicated in this problem of squandering funds, perhaps he would shoot at us, that is why we requested - I'm not also saying that the firearm was not safe with him. MR NOMPOZOLO You were armed yourselves, all of you who were there, is that not so? MR TYALI Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO You were armed with R5's, with R4's and with side arms, is it not so? MR TYALI No we did not have the R5's, we had only pistols. MR NOMPOZOLO You did take out your firearms at his house and your tone was not as calm as it is today when you were addressing him. MR TYALI If he says that we did that to him, we apologise for that although we did not talk to him roughly. We were even chatting in the car and he even told us that he did not squander any funds and there was no chaos or squabble in the car, but if he says we did that, we ill-handled him, I am so sorry. MR NOMPOZOLO And when you went to his house, your purpose was to kidnap him, that is take him against his will. You were not going to leave his house without him, even if he didn't want to go with you. MR TYALI Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO And when you were doing that you did not have any political motive on your mind to achieve. MR TYALI The aim of taking these officers into the college was to remove Brig Gqozo first of all, but when the police were discussing, the issue of funds came up and you were obliged to call the people who were implicated because that was not a very nice thing. MR NOMPOZOLO Am I correct to say, you are saying the purpose was to remove Brig Gqozo and you are saying that because others are saying that, otherwise you don't have anything to support your statement. MR TYALI I can support my statement because I never heard the police singing toyi-toyi songs before in the government buildings. I have never seen such behaviour, the behaviour that I witnessed on that particular day, that is why I am saying today that their aim was really to remove Brig Gqozo. MR NOMPOZOLO But you were not part and parcel of those policemen, because one you were at the gate and all you were doing you were doing whatever is required to be done otherwise your mind was not set to do what the other policemen were doing because you were not part of the decision-making about those police. I mean you were not part of the decision-making by those policemen and moreover you were never informed by the police that they want to remove Brig Gqozo. MR TYALI I was not at the gate as such but I would go to the gate and come back next to the hall. Fortunately when I was at the gate the soldiers came in, the soldiers who said they were coming to join the group of people who said they wanted to remove Brig Gqozo. I got that information from them. I went back to the hall as we were told that the security should be tight. MR NOMPOZOLO Mr Chairman, may I be corrected, I don't want to put what was not said to the applicant. My understanding from Mr Mfene was that the six soldiers who arrived there, they were sent by Brig Gqozo to inquire what was happening there. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well are we talking about the same soldiers? Mr Mfene was talking about soldiers who came and wanted to find out what was going on and they left and Mfene and the others were left with some doubts, some suspicion and that's why they went to arm themselves but Mr Tyali is talking about soldiers who came there and who joined the police and who had said look the whole purpose is to get rid of Gqozo, so I'm not sure whether we're talking about the same soldiers. Did you want to put to him what Mr Mfene said about his soldiers, because his soldiers seem to have left and this African soldier seemed to have joined. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chairman. May I just converse the point? The soldiers who told you that the purpose was to - that they also wanted to topple Mr Gqozo, did those soldiers leave the college? MR TYALI They did not leave the college, instead they came and joined the part of the security at the college, they became part of the security. MR NOMPOZOLO Now, you were never informed by the police that they want to remove Mr Gqozo, not so? MR TYALI I did not get that information from the people who were at the stage who were giving the other police microphones, I got that from the soldiers and I later got that as a rumour from the other people. No one told me directly that the aim was to make Gqozo to step down. MR NOMPOZOLO And would you concede that you unlawfully took Mr Sawuti from his house? MR TYALI Yes, that is correct, Sir. MR NOMPOZOLO Would you also concede that had you not fetched Mr Sawuti from his house, he wouldn't have been held as a hostage at Bisho? MR TYALI Yes, that is correct, Sir. MR NOMPOZOLO Would you also concede that Mr Sawuti could have been killed because you didn't know what was happening inside the hall, you didn't know what was the plan to bring them, could have been killed or whatever, something could have happened to him inside the hall? MR TYALI He would not be killed because he was not alone. Not unless something else would be directed to him as an individual, but he was safe in the hall because the security was tight. MR NOMPOZOLO Would you also concede that when Mr Sawuti was fetched, already Brig Gqozo had announced his resignation? MR TYALI Yes I heard that. MR NOMPOZOLO Would you also concede that the act of fetching Mr Sawuti and keeping him as a hostage, was a criminal act which had nothing to do with politics? MR TYALI Capt Sawuti, we did not fetch him forcefully, if there is anything that implies that, I apologise for that, but we took him nicely and we were even chatting in the car, there was no problem, even today we still chat nicely with him. If he thought that we took him in a rough manner or we manhandled him, I apologise for that. MR NOMPOZOLO My instructions are to the contrary, Mr Chairman. My instructions are that from his home in front of his children you humiliated him by saying he's a thief and he has misappropriated funds and then you manhandled him into the car pointed with firearms, up to the stage where he was taken into the hall wherein, inside the hall he was asked about money and to state his c v and all that. Now, I am instructed that you are not disclosing the truth before the Commission. What are you saying to that? MR TYALI That is why I am saying if he says that we acted in that manner, I would like to apologise for that, but all I can remember is that we requested his firearm while in the car, we did not disarm him in his house. When we were in the car we requested for his firearm and there was no wrestling and we never humiliated him in front of his children. If he says we did that I am so sorry. MR NOMPOZOLO Sir, is it not correct that when you left the hall to fetch Mr Sawuti, already there were some officers who were in the hall who were being humiliated by other junior officers? MR TYALI Yes, people would be questioned about allegations about funds, people would be told to answer or respond whatever they know about the monies. Perhaps that person would mention someone else's name and they would ask anyone who has got the car to go and fetch that particular person to come and answer for himself. That was what was happening. MR NOMPOZOLO And is it correct that when you left the premises of the hall to fetch Mr Sawuti you were in a very joyous mood because it was your turn as junior officers to question them? You were excited about it. MR TYALI Yes, that is correct, because the situation that the police were in on that particular day, they were a bit rough, they were angry or rather rough because they had complained and at the same time they wanted to remove Brig Gqozo, the most important thing was to remove Brig Gqozo from what I saw, because I have never seen the police singing and ululating freedom songs in the government building. MR NOMPOZOLO Is it correct that when you arrived at Mr Sawuti's house you wanted to show him that although he is a senior officer, you were above him on that day? MR TYALI I can say yes because if he refused to go with us on that particular time we were going to force him to go with us. MR NOMPOZOLO Would you then agree with me that your answers are consistent with what he is saying that you forcefully removed him from his house against his will? MR TYALI Although we were not prepared to leave him behind if there was some resistance, but on that particular time he was willing, he went back to the house to dress up and we went back to the car. If he said we manhandled him I apologise for that because I don't remember seeing that. MR NOMPOZOLO Now other than Mr Sawuti, who else did you fetch? That is who else were you, personally, involved when he was fetched? MR TYALI The other person that we went to fetch was a certain brigadier who was staying in some rural area, Brig Kondo, the one that we went to fetch at his house. MR NOMPOZOLO Who else? MR TYALI The other one that we looked for and we couldn't find him was Brig Suys. He was not in his house. MR NOMPOZOLO Is it correct that when you fetched these people, you realised then that what you were doing was unlawful. As a result, subsequently you decided to ask for amnesty? MR TYALI Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO And is it correct that you decided to ask for amnesty irrespective of whether what you were doing was political or not? Your criteria has not been that it was political. MR TYALI I disagree with you if you say it was not political because I've already said that the main aim was to remove Brig Gqozo, so we would hold some senior officers so that Gqozo could go down. MR NOMPOZOLO At that stage you did not know that that was the plan, you yourself, I'm talking about you as an individual. You did not know that the plan was to take the senior officers so that Brig Gqozo can step down. MR TYALI MR NOMPOZOLO But when you went to fetch Sawuti and others, Brig Gqozo had already resigned. Hence I'm saying you knew at that time what you were doing was unlawful and just a criminal act. MR TYALI Yes, I heard that he had resigned, but that's a rumour that I got but someone announced that, someone attached to the mike that someone should go and fetch this Serg Sawuti because he was also implicated. MR NOMPOZOLO As a policeman then and now, you knew and you know even now that if you associate yourself with a criminal act then you have to suffer the consequences, MR TYALI Yes, that is correct. That is why I am here today to ask for amnesty. MR NOMPOZOLO And when you went to the hall on the 22nd and when you left the hall on the 23rd you did not have - you were not politically aligned to any political organisation. Am I correct? MR TYALI I can say that is not true because at the time I was already a Popcru member. Popcru that is a Cosatu affiliate under the umbrella of the ANC. MR NOMPOZOLO Anyway, when you were fetching Capt Sawuti and others, you were not sent by Popcru to do so, not so? MR TYALI The people who were in front, people like Serg Nkwenkwe, Peteni and Mfene, I knew that they were Popcru members and even when this was happening it was apparent that this was the action that was taken by the members of the organisation, so I disagree with you when you say that I was not sent by Popcru to go and fetch Capt Sawuti, and even the freedom songs that were sung there, it was obvious to anyone that these people belong to some organisation. MR NOMPOZOLO At that stage you could differentiate between which is political and something which is not political. MR TYALI Will you please repeat the question? MR NOMPOZOLO On the 22nd and the 23rd of March 1994 you could differentiate between what is political and what is not political? MR TYALI Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO And anybody who had stolen money, that is not political, it has never been political. It is just a criminal act. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean, the perpetrator? MR NOMPOZOLO The perpetrator yes. Let's put it like this Mr Chairman, like Mr Sawuti, the fact that there was an allegation that he has stolen money, that was not political. CHAIRPERSON But assuming he had stolen the money, Mr Sawuti's theft of the money are you saying is not political? MR NOMPOZOLO Yes, that's what I'm saying. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now do you want him to comment on that? MR NOMPOZOLO Yes, that he knew that time that the action of stealing money by Mr Sawuti was not a political action. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but what has it got to do with his application, what Sawuti has done and whether Sawuti was actuated by a political motive or not, how does that fit into this? MR NOMPOZOLO Because Mr Chairman, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Isn't Sawuti's motive totally irrelevant to this application? MR NOMPOZOLO Yes Mr Chairman, but what Sawuti has done was the cause for them to go and take Sawuti, therefore what Sawuti had done had nothing to do with politics, therefore what they were doing was not politically related. CHAIRPERSON Well that's a different question. I would have thought that what Sawuti's motive was is totally irrelevant to this application. What their motive was in confronting Sawuti, would obviously be relevant to this inquiry here before us. MR NOMPOZOLO I was driving to that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, why don't you put that to him? Why don't you leave out Sawuti's motive because that doesn't seem to be relevant at all? Why don't you ask him what their motive was, whether their motive was political or not? MR NOMPOZOLO Actually, Mr Chairman, I wanted to put it to him what their motive was because we are saying that it was not political. The fact that Sawuti might have stolen money is not political. CHAIRPERSON Yes well you might have dealt with that before, but why don't you ask him directly whether their motive in confronting Sawuti was political or not? MR NOMPOZOLO Because Mr Chairman, once I put it like the Chair is suggesting, all what the witness is going to say is going to go right round and give a lengthy answer whereas I am getting to a point where I'm going to put it to him that the fact that Sawuti has stolen money for argument sake does not amount to a political related action from their side to go and fetch him. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now that is exactly what I'm saying. Why don't you put it to him? Why don't you then put it to him that your case is that their conduct in confronting Sawuti, was not political? MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR NOMPOZOLO Now, even Mr Tyali, even if we can take your case and say indeed Sawuti had misappropriated funds, but by going to him and confronting him about that is not politically motivated, or political related. Am I correct? DR TSOTSI Isn't what is or is not political going to be determined by the Committee? MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you. That is so but the problem is that I have to put it to him, so that he can answer to that. DR TSOTSI Yes you have put it to him that what he did was not political. He says it was political. What further can we do now? You are cross-examining now, it would be in order to show that in fact the action was political, isn't that right - was not political? MR NOMPOZOLO To show that it was not political. DR TSOTSI Yes, but I'm saying the Committee has to determine whether or not an act is political. It is not the witness that has got to determine that aspect of the matter. MR NOMPOZOLO I had thought that it's my duty to elicit on behalf of my client that what they did was not political. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but what my colleague is putting to you is that it's really argument. You're putting argument to the witness. The witness, his case as I understand it seems to be that they were acting with a political motive. You're saying they were not. There's obviously a dispute between the two of you and as my colleague puts it to you, that is something that the panel will have to decide on eventually so it doesn't take your case any further to put what is really a matter of argument to the witness. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chair. Now, lastly Mr Tyali, is it correct that you were not part of the decision-making that Brig Gqozo will be removed on that day, you as an individual? MR TYALI MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nompozolo. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO CHAIRPERSON Ms Collett any questions? MS COLLETT No Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA Just a few. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Tyali you have just said that when you heard that the intention of that meeting was to remove Brig Gqozo, you got excited. When you heard that he has in fact resigned, when you heard it during the night that Brig Gqozo had resigned, did you believe that? MR TYALI I never believed that because it came to me as a rumour. I only believed it when I heard it over the news in my house and I heard that Brig Gqozo said he has resigned. MR MAPOMA When was it that you heard in your house? MR TYALI The following day. MR MAPOMA Now when you went to fetch Mr Sawuti and others, is it correct that you were still not in the belief that he has in fact resigned? MR TYALI I heard that as a rumour from the people who said they got that from him. I couldn't believe that and I didn't go there to fetch Mr Sawuti because Brig Gqozo had resigned, but I was doing that per instruction. MR MAPOMA Now this probing which was being made about the embezzlement of money and corruption, to your understanding, did it have anything to do with Brig Gqozo? MR TYALI Sir, as I've already said, the main objective there was to remove Brig Gqozo but it just happened that some work related issues were discussed in that meeting. Issues that just came and the police were interested in knowing how far did the case go, that is when we were told to go and fetch the people who were implicated. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Has the panel got any questions? ADV BOSMAN No questions thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination? MR OBOSE Yes, just one point Mr Chairman. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE Mr Tyali, I just want you to explain about the guarding of the premises. As far as you could establish at what stage were these premises guarded or from what stage, that is the police college? MR TYALI Sir you want to know on that particular day, or the normal procedure because there are two things here. On that particular day the police were on guard and the students who were training to be police were removed and they were taken to the bungalows, only the police assisted the soldiers because there was a rumour that the stability unit and S A D F would come and attack the police at the college. I am not sure if your question is answered. MR OBOSE Now when this news was received that Brig Gqozo has told some members that he has stepped down, I would imagine that this was related to the people in the hall and the general mood in the hall was it one of say oh thank you, we can now go home, we're happy, or was there some feeling that we should still remain until further notice? MR TYALI According to what I saw, the mood did not change but we continued collecting all the officers. There was no change in the mood and no-one said we must go home because Brig Gqozo had stepped down, but it was made mention, the fact that he would be addressing the people in the stadium the following day. I think that is why the police had to remain there because they were so much interested in seeing him addressing the people at the stadium. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Obose. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tyali, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED