amntrans AMNESTY COMMITTEE 1999-06-21 DURBAN 1 THULANI PERCIVAL CELE AM4501/96 PUBLIC VIOLENCE AND MURDER OF DUDU NGCOBO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53490&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99062124_dbn_990621db.htm CHAIRPERSON This is the first day of the Truth and Reconciliation's Amnesty Committee sitting, here in Durban. This Committee will be sitting for the whole week to hear various applications. The first applicant or applicants, there are two, will be Mr Thulani Percival Cele and Roy Bongumusa Cele. Before we proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce the members of the panel, starting with myself. I am Judge Sisi Khampepe. On my right hand side is Mr Wynand Malan, on my left hand side, Adv Chris de Jager, SC. Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair, my name is Ms Thabile Thabethe, I am working for the TRC, I am the Evidence Leader, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Is there anyone who is representing the applicants in these applications? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes Chairperson, I am Konki Molohlanye, I am representing the applicant in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Mr Molohlanye, are we in a position to commence? MR MOLOHLANYE Certainly Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may do so. Before you proceed Mr Molohlanye, have we advised the members of the public which channels to tune into to be able to follow these proceedings? Zulu will be channel 3 and English will be channel 2. Anyone who needs assistance, Joe will be there to give a hand. Just show up your hand and he will come to your assistance. Mr Molohlanye, you may proceed to call your first witness. MR MOLOHLANYE My first applicant is Mr Thulani Percival Cele. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cele, would you like to take an oath? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Please rise to take the oath. THULANI PERCIVAL CELE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated, you have been sworn in. You may proceed Mr Molohlanye. EXAMINATION BY MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. Mr Applicant, can you for the record, give us your full name? MR CELE Thulani Percival Cele. MR MOLOHLANYE Thulani, I would like for you to start where the whole problem began. I know you understand what you are here for and can you please lead the Committee or bring to the Committee what happened in your area? CHAIRPERSON Mr Molohlanye, are we to take it that the document before us that is headed "Affidavit", you intend to use and you would like to request that it be handed up to this Committee as an Exhibit? MR MOLOHLANYE I would like to apologise Chairperson. I certainly would like this affidavit to be used as evidence. CHAIRPERSON Let the record show then, that will be Exhibit A, that being the affidavit of Thulani Percival Cele. Are you going to lead him on the affidavit, that is Exhibit A before us? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Can Mr Cele read English? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Would it not be better if you gave him a copy? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes, I will certainly do so, Chairperson. You may proceed Mr Cele. CHAIRPERSON Won't you just repeat the question that you put to Mr Cele? MR MOLOHLANYE Before you come to that, Mr Cele, may you briefly tell us how was your area during those years? MR CELE The area in which I was residing, had been peaceful, but there were other neighbouring areas where there was political conflict, that is between the ANC and the IFP. That is not including the area that I was residing in. MR MOLOHLANYE Mr Cele, then can you proceed to the affidavit and read all that is there. MR CELE With regards to the charges that I was convicted for? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes, I would like you to start as the Committee wishes to, that you start reading from the first paragraph. CHAIRPERSON We don't want him, Mr Molohlanye, to read. You are here to conduct his application as a legal representative. You know the requirements of the Act, you know the pertinent evidence he must lead before us in order to satisfy us, that he qualifies for amnesty. We will read the affidavit as you proceed with your evidence. Will you lead him in chief by putting questions. We expect you to lead him in chief by putting questions to him, in that way he will give much more pointed evidence. MR MALAN Just before you proceed, may I just ask, Mr Cele, have you read the affidavit that you have signed? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN You know and understand what is in there? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN And do you again affirm it here to be true and correct? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN You can take it that this is before us and if you would lead him on the (indistinct), I will appreciate it. MR MOLOHLANYE Thulani, which political affiliation were you in 1989? MR CELE The ANC. MR MOLOHLANYE What position did you hold in the organisation, were you just a member or a leader? MR CELE I was a leader in my area. MR MOLOHLANYE Please tell us, were you elected or were you just nominated? MR CELE We had discussed the matter, that is the residents of the area and the structure was formed and I was elected to lead that structure. MR MOLOHLANYE In this structure, who was also in the structure, were you alone? MR CELE There were five of us. MR MOLOHLANYE Can you please give us the names of the other five members? CHAIRPERSON You may lead him on this. You may actually read out their names and ask him if he confirms the people you stated belonged to the structure that he has referred to. MR MOLOHLANYE In the structure, the other members were Bongumusa, Thami Mthembu, Nhlanhleni Makhaya, is that right Mr - oh, I left out Bongani Khumalo. MR CELE That is true. MR MOLOHLANYE Can you please tell us why was this Committee formed? MR CELE There were some events taking place although the political conflict had not as yet reached the area, but there were criminal activities taking place, people were robbed in the streets and people actually robbed houses. The people responsible for these acts were the AmaSenora. We then met and discussed this matter as ANC members and decided on electing marshals who would be responsible for safeguarding the area. MR MOLOHLANYE Please tell us, during that time as you said, there were no fighting in your area, so what was the main purpose of the structure which you formed as the members of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Unless you want him to state something differently, hasn't he just responded to the same question, the intention was to defend the community against the many criminal acts which were prevalent and committed by a gang called AmaSenora? MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson, for that. What else did you discuss in the meeting with the community? MR CELE We discussed various issues for example developmental issues because there was a scarcity of resources as well as the fact that we needed people to defend the area because people were robbed of their possessions like TV sets which they would be robbed of during the night. Therefore our intention of forming that structure, was to make sure that we defend that community. Another factor is that our area had members from different organisations, but there was no friction amongst the members, therefore we also wanted to keep the peace in our area, we did not want to see a situation that was happening in other areas, the political fighting happening in our area as well. MR MOLOHLANYE Mr Cele, so you are saying that you formed the structure to guard the area. Can you please tell the Committee what would have happened to a person found guilty of any offence or committing crime in your area? MR CELE That person would appear and be convicted for that crime. MR MOLOHLANYE After the conviction ... CHAIRPERSON May I interpose, that person would appear before your structure? MR CELE Yes, that person would appear before our structure and the structure would decide his fate. He or she would be convicted to a number of strokes or lashes and the structure would decide just how many. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. After the meeting you had and the structure that was formed for marshalling the area, how was crime after that in your area? MR CELE The rate of crime deceased. The incidents of crime or criminal acts would only take place when the criminals knew that most people would be at work, away at work, they did not commit these criminal activities in the evenings when people were at home. MR MOLOHLANYE So Mr Cele, as we now heard the background of your area, can you please tell the Committee what led to your arrest and conviction in this and what ultimately led you to appear in front of the Committee? MR CELE With regards to my arrest, around December 1989 some people came to attack me in my area. They suspected me of having killed Martin Ngcobo who had been living in the area, although he was not born and bred in the area. I heard that some people had arrived. MR MOLOHLANYE Sorry to interrupt you, can you please give us a date when these people came to your area? ADV DE JAGER We understand that it is a long time ago, you could even lead him on the date. I don't think that would be disputed. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Advocate. Please proceed. MR CELE If I am not mistaken these people arrived on the 24th of December and I heard about their arrival in the evening of the 24th. MR MOLOHLANYE Proceed sir. MR CELE On the following day, which was Christmas day, I discovered that indeed these people were present although I was not certain if they had really come to attack me. The rumour that I heard was that they had come to attack me, that would have been a revenge attack for the death of Martin Ngcobo. My family then decided to send a message to these people, or rather she sent the message to Martin's mother and requested to see her. Martin's mother, that is Diana Cele, came to my home. MR MOLOHLANYE I am sorry to interrupt you Mr Cele, it is not Martin's mother, it is Martin's girlfriend's mother? MR CELE Yes. MR MOLOHLANYE Please proceed. MR CELE Nococanya Cele, Martin's girlfriend, also came. MR MOLOHLANYE What happened? MR CELE When they came to my home, they were asked if they had any knowledge about the people who were alleged to have come to attack me for the death of Martin. MR MOLOHLANYE What was their response to that? What was their response to that? MR CELE They said that they did not know anything about it. MR MOLOHLANYE After the meeting that you had between both families, what happened? MR CELE They said they had no knowledge with regards to these people, just what their business was, and thereafter we dispersed and they returned home and we also remained at our house. At that time, there were also people, neighbours, who had also noticed the presence of these people because these individuals were actually making a lot of noise where they were residing at the time. MR MOLOHLANYE Sorry, you are saying they were shouting. What were they saying when they were shouting and making a noise? MR CELE What I heard distinctly when I went outside, it was not very far from my home, they wanted to know from the group that I was in, who was Thulani and I showed myself. Although I could not see the person quite clearly, he said to me he was coming. He said that he was coming and he was going to get Martin's hand. CHAIRPERSON Was this a female or a male? MR CELE It was a male. CHAIRPERSON How many people were there, you are referring to people having shouted at you and having asked who was Thulani. How many people were there who were making such enquiries? MR CELE There were quite a few, they were at Amos' house and there were people standing around there, children. CHAIRPERSON Can you estimate the number, would you say a few, would approximate three, four, five or more than five persons? MR CELE I think if I include everybody who was at that house, they could have been more than 10. CHAIRPERSON Did this include Diana Cele? MR CELE No, she was not there, she was at her home at that time. CHAIRPERSON And the 10 persons, were they all unknown to you? MR CELE I only knew the people whose home they were residing in, but of the people who had come, I didn't know anyone. CHAIRPERSON How many people were unknown to you in that group? MR CELE It was difficult to estimate because they would not all come out simultaneously, they would emerge one person or two persons at a time. I only saw them together when we went to a meeting. CHAIRPERSON You have referred to a group of 10 persons. I want to know from that group, how many people were unknown to you? MR CELE As I mentioned before, that number included the people or the members of the household, but I could not really estimate just how many these unknown persons were because they were not all there in the yard, they would come out a person at a time, or two people at a time, but they were not all together. CHAIRPERSON Later on you were able to know who exactly you knew and who you didn't know. How many people were unknown to you at the time when you escorted these people to the hills? MR CELE There were six boys that I found as well as one female, whom I only saw when I was quite close to them. I knew this female. CHAIRPERSON You may go back to your examination in chief, Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. You said you were standing outside and you heard these people shouting. With whom were you standing, were you alone? MR CELE I was not alone. There were neighbours who were also standing outside on my yard. MR MOLOHLANYE Can you tell us what happened after that, on the same date, on the 25th of December 1989? MR CELE I waited, waiting for them to arrive, but they did not turn up on that day. MR MOLOHLANYE Were you alone waiting for them or did you have any company? MR CELE There were many of us. There were other residents of the area present. MR MOLOHLANYE You waited with these people overnight or did they leave at any time on the 25th? MR CELE We all waited until the following day. MR MOLOHLANYE When did they leave your house? MR CELE They left on the following day, about mid-morning. MR MOLOHLANYE What happened after that, Mr Cele? MR CELE After they had left, and it was only myself and my family remaining and my family were all females, these people then came to my home, the very same people who had been in that house. They were all male and amongst them I only knew Bunu. CHAIRPERSON How many were they? MR CELE I think they were about seven. CHAIRPERSON And you say amongst the seven persons, you only knew one person by the name of Bunu? MR CELE Yes, that is the only person that I saw. CHAIRPERSON Yes? Proceed and then what happened? MR CELE As they left that house, coming towards my home, there was a noise that erupted, people from other houses started shouting. MR MOLOHLANYE Did they finally make it to your house? MR CELE No, they did not enter the house. They were coming along the road, but a lot of people came out running, out of their houses because my family and myself also came out of the house. The females ran away and I proceeded towards Muandla's house, which was about ... MR MOLOHLANYE You said some people ... CHAIRPERSON I didn't get the translation. Where was Muandla's house? The translation didn't come through? INTERPRETER The applicant said the house was above theirs. CHAIRPERSON Muandla's house was above the applicant's house? INTERPRETER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MOLOHLANYE So you say people came, people from the area came when they heard the women from your house screaming. What did they do? MR CELE There were a lot of people who came running and this group could not then enter the house, they just took another route away from my house. Eventually they returned to Amos' place where they were residing. MR MOLOHLANYE So you were still at Muandla's house? With whom were you there? MR CELE As I was still at Muandla's house, a lot of people came to that house, that is people from the neighbourhood and some of my comrades. We all converged at that house. MR MOLOHLANYE Only people from your area were at Muandla's house? MR CELE At that time, it was just the residents, neighbours who could, who had witnessed and could hear what was happening. As they were still standing there, we were also a bit confused. As we were still standing there, some people from a neighbouring area arrived. There were many of them, I do not know how the message got to them or how they came to our area, but they were coming from Gangala. MR MOLOHLANYE You were at Muandla's house, what were you doing there, just standing? MR CELE We were standing around, discussing this matter, still deliberating on what to do. It was not easy for me to go back home at that time. Muandla's house was level to the house in which these people were residing. As we were still standing there, talking, this group of people from Gangala then approached. They approached and passed Amos' house and proceeded to the house in which I was standing, that was Muandla's place. MR MOLOHLANYE What did you decide after discussing this matter with the community and after the arrival of this Gangala people? MR CELE A decision was taken to approach this people so that we find out who they are and what their purpose of coming into the area was. We then left and went to Amos' house where these people were. MR MOLOHLANYE Please proceed. MR CELE As we got there, the house was surrounded. Some people went into the house and these people were removed from the house. We proceeded to that spot where we usually held our tribunals. ADV DE JAGER Kindly, you say we went to this house, but you were the elected leader, did you take a leading part in going to the house and entering the house and getting the people out of the house? MR CELE As I explained before, people from a neighbouring area came and their leader, Nhlanhleni Makhaya, enquired from me as to what was going on and I explained the situation to him. Then they suggested that we go and approach these people so that we find out the facts from them. That was when we went to that house and we found them in the house, removed them and took them to that spot. MR MOLOHLANYE What happened at the place where you used to hold your meetings? MR CELE That is where we questioned them about their identity and the purpose of their visit, what they were going to do. We then learnt that they were from Umlazi and from what they explained, they said they had come to get Martin's hand. Apparently when the body of Martin was found, a hand had been missing and they had been told that I had that hand. MR MOLOHLANYE Did you ask them who told them that you killed Martin or who alleged that you killed Martin? MR CELE Yes, I did ask them. They explained that they personally did not have information, but they had been approached by Amos and Nococanya who had informed them that I had killed Martin. MR MOLOHLANYE You said you asked them what their political organisation was, what answer did they give you? MR CELE At the time, I was not the person who was questioning them but I do remember that they were questioned on that aspect. Some indicated that they were not affiliated to any political organisation and some said they belonged to the IFP, and one of them said he was an ANC member. I think Ernest was Martin's brother. He was further questioned on the ANC and from his answers it became clear that he did not have any knowledge with regards to the ANC. MR MOLOHLANYE What happened to these people after the questioning? CHAIRPERSON May I interpose before you proceed? What was the purpose of questioning these people about their political affiliation? MR CELE The reason for that was because of the circumstances. We had expected that if there was a person who was concerned about Martin's death, we would have expected that person to go to Martin's house, but when we questioned Martin's family or the people that he had been living with, they denied any knowledge of these people. That was why we questioned them because we also suspected that they may have been members of AmaSenora or members of the IFP. We wanted to know as to why they had been there, maybe they were using Martin's death just as an excuse to attack the people in the community or if they had been really sent to revenge Martin's death. CHAIRPERSON Who was doing the questioning? MR CELE There was Nhlanhleni Makhaya, he posed the questions although there were other people who also posed questions. I, myself, also asked some questions. CHAIRPERSON What questions did you personally ask? MR CELE I asked them if they had found Martin's hand, what would they have done thereafter. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and what was the response thereto? MR CELE They said they would have just taken the hand and returned home. CHAIRPERSON Nhlanhleni Makhaya is the leader of Gangala Youth League of the ANC? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You were not a member of Gangala Youth League? MR CELE No, these are just neighbouring areas but later on, we joined forces and worked in collaboration with one another because if there were people who were safeguarding our area, they would also do so at Gangala and vice versa. CHAIRPERSON As at the 25th of December, you were not a member of Gangala Youth League? MR CELE No, I was not. I belonged to Manyaseni. CHAIRPERSON As at the 25th of December, was there some kind of co-operation between Gangala Youth League and the structure in which you were a leader, Emayaseni? MR CELE Yes, there was. CHAIRPERSON What kind of collaboration do you have? Did you have co-operation? MR CELE Prior to the 25th, there was co-operation because the people who committed these criminal acts, did not demarcate just where they attacked, but they would rob any house, be it in my area or in Gangala, such that when we heard of these acts, regardless of where they were committed, we would all go and investigate. Even if I was away at work, I would be assured that Nhlanhleni would also keep an eye on my area. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, thank you Mr Molohlanye. You may proceed. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. You said you questioned these people and what happened after questioning? MR CELE After that questioning, after we had learnt that the purpose of their arrival was to attack, because we also found some firearms on them, we then held a separate discussion to discuss what to do with them. MR MOLOHLANYE What decision did you come up with? MR CELE The decision was taken to attack them so that they do not repeat what they had done. It was also decided that the people or the family that had been hosting them, should also be attacked, particularly their son so that they do not in future, fetch people from other areas to come and attack us in our area. MR MALAN Sorry for interrupting, I think you are losing me. I heard you say that on questioning they said that they came to look for the hand of Martin. MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN And that you specifically asked them, had they found the hand, what would they have done and they said they would take it home? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN So where did you learn that they came to attack? I didn't hear you say anything that they told you that they came to attack. MR CELE We deduced this from the questions that we asked them as well as the fact that they were armed. Another factor that influenced me to think so is because Martin had been buried for a very long time, such that there was not really any expectation from them to find a hand ... (tape ends) ... it was early in December. MR MALAN If this happened still in December, why would they be looking for a hand? MR CELE The amount of time that had lapsed between then, was long. MR MALAN Were you armed? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN What arms did you find on them, what weapons did you find on this group? MR CELE Firearms, three firearms. MR MALAN When you went to take them out of Amos' house, did they not show their arms, did they not try to defend themselves? MR CELE No, they did not attempt to do so because when we arrived there, we surrounded the entire house, it was not easy for them, it would not have been easy for them to do so. MR MALAN When they first approached you to your house, from where the women ran away and your an away, they didn't show their arms then, they didn't show their firearms then? MR CELE No, they were asking me questions, they were not very close to me because they were standing at Amos' house and I was at my home. MR MALAN But if they really wanted to attack you, why would they not have taken out their firearms there and attacked you there at your house when you were alone with only the women? MR CELE I do not know. Maybe they did not know just who was present in my home. CHAIRPERSON But hasn't it been your evidence that as they were approaching towards your home and the women in your house, fled when seeing these people approaching from a distance, people in the neighbourhood then came and these people were stopped from getting into your house because of a large number of neighbours who came in towards your house, when they saw these people coming towards you? MR CELE Yes, I did say so. MR MALAN How far is Amos' house from Muandla's house? MR CELE It is not very far. If you shout, if you call out to somebody there, they would be able to hear you if you are shouting. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Mr Chairperson. You took a decision and then these people were sjamboked, how many strokes did they get? MR CELE 300 strokes. MR MOLOHLANYE 300 for males or for both genders? MR CELE The males were lashed 300 strokes, the females were given only 50 lashes, expect for Dudu who was lashed for 200 strokes. MR MOLOHLANYE Dudu was present at the time that these people were punished? CHAIRPERSON That is not his evidence, shouldn't you put a question which would not be leading, or not even leading, confusing him, because that has not been his evidence. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was Dudu present when you administered the punishment of 300 strokes initially on the approximate seven persons that you took up to the hills in the place that you called "The People's Court"? MR CELE Initially when the house was surrounded and these people were taken away, she was not there, but she was later present. That is after some people went back and found her there at the house. CHAIRPERSON That is quite apparent from the contents of paragraph 14 of your affidavit, is that not so, that you found Dudu later on, hiding under the bed after the other persons had been punished? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. So, you told us that Dudu was sjamboked 200 strokes. What happened after that? MR CELE Dudu was the last person to be sjamboked and she was told to pack her stuff and leave the area, never to return. MR MOLOHLANYE Please proceed. CHAIRPERSON Who was giving such instructions, can you be more specific? Was it yourself or was this Nhlanhleni Makhaya? MR CELE I am the person who said so. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and what happened thereafter? MR CELE She left thereafter. MR MOLOHLANYE Proceed, after she left, what happened? MR CELE The people that she had been with, had left Amos' house. A car approached and there were comrades in this car. MR MOLOHLANYE The comrades were from Amadiqwe, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Isn't that leading? Why should you lead him, that is not so innocuous. Where were these comrades from? MR CELE They were from Amadiqwe. There may have been some who were not from the Amadiqwe area itself, but from a neighbouring area. CHAIRPERSON Did you know them? MR CELE I did know some and some I did not know. CHAIRPERSON How did you know that they were from Amadiqwe? MR CELE I knew, the people that I knew, I knew them from Amadiqwe. CHAIRPERSON How many were they? MR CELE It is not easy for me to remember just how many there were, but there were many of them, they were travelling in a kombi. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What did they do on arrival? MR CELE They enquired just what decisions had been made because when they arrived, the people who had been sjamboked were no longer there. CHAIRPERSON How did they know that a decision had been made at all? MR CELE When they arrived, people were dispersing, returning to their homes. They met us along the way, that is when they asked us just what had been going on, what decisions had been taken from that rumour that they heard that there were people who had come to the area to attack. CHAIRPERSON How did they know that people had come to the area to attack? MR CELE I do not know who had contacted them. I was not even expecting them, I just saw them arriving there. CHAIRPERSON Around what time was it when they arrived there? MR CELE It is not easy to remember, but they arrived after everything had taken place, they were the last to arrive. CHAIRPERSON Can you approximate, I know it is difficult for you to do so, but is it possible for you to approximate as to how long it took you to get the persons from Cele's house, march them up to the hills where you usually held your "People's Court", administer the lashes, go down to look for Dudu, find her, administer some lashes on her and tell her to leave, how long did that take? Do you think it could have taken a few minutes or it took some few hours? MR CELE It must have been hours. CHAIRPERSON How far is Amadiqwe from your place which is Manyaseni? MR CELE It is not that far. If I can estimate, I will say from where we are now, it is from here to Durban station. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You may proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. When they arrived, what decision did you take with these comrades from Amadiqwe? MR CELE When the comrades arrived, they didn't agree with the decision we had taken. They said we were not supposed to just slash them and let them go because now we are giving them a reason to go and attack us. That was the decision we were taught that we were supposed to kill them, not to slash them or stroke them. MR MOLOHLANYE What did you do after that? MR CELE That is when we left, we went straight to Mr Amos' house. MR MOLOHLANYE Can you proceed and tell us what happened at Amos' house and thereafter? MR CELE When we went to Mr Amos' house, we were not walking but we were running. The people who were there, they ran away. When we arrived there, since there was no one, we burnt down the house. The people who were there, had already left and the people whom I saw there were children, they were playing outside. We tried to chase the people who were running and they were not running to the same direction. We couldn't get hold of the males, the only person we got hold of, was Dudu. MR MOLOHLANYE Were you present when she was caught? MR CELE Yes, I was. MR MOLOHLANYE What happened to her after she was caught, will you please tell the Committee? ADV DE JAGER Just a moment please, could I just get clarity here. That was after Dudu had been lashed, had received 200 strokes? MR CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER So she couldn't run at that stage or could she? MR CELE She tried, but then she didn't have enough strength because she was a female and the males were chasing her. Other people who were slashed 300, they could run away and they did succeed in running away, but she couldn't because she was a female and the males were chasing her. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Molohlanye? MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. You said you caught Dudu, what happened after that? MR CELE She was beaten up, it was in the street. She was beaten up to death. That is where she died. MR MOLOHLANYE How was she beaten? MR CELE Some were kicking her, some were beating her, some were throwing stones on her, I think the stones actually killed her. MR MOLOHLANYE What was your role during that? MR CELE I also threw a stone. MR MOLOHLANYE So you were involved in the beating and kicking of her, of Dudu? MR CELE The only thing I did, I took a big stone and I threw it on her. I didn't kick her. MR MALAN Will you please look at the last sentence of paragraph 14? You say there right at the bottom "... I also joined in kicking and beating her with stones until she died." Do you see that? MR CELE Yes, I do. MR MALAN Do you remember that I asked you whether you had read the statement? MR CELE Yes, I do remember. MR MALAN And I asked you whether everything was true and correct and I think you said yes? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN Now, did you kick her or did you not kick her? MR CELE No, I didn't kick her. I took a stone because I wanted something to finish her quicker. When I arrived there, so was already laying down and I took a big stone and I threw it on her. Others kicked her. MR MALAN Were you not pursuing Dudu when you ran after these people, did you not say you followed the group who pursued Dudu? If I can explain, if I understood you correctly you were splitting up in different groups, pursuing these people running away. I understood you to say you were following Dudu, I may be mistaken? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. When the people left Amos' house, there were many and they were running towards one direction but, because there was a sugar cane or sugar field, some of them ran into the sugar field. MR MALAN Where did you run? MR CELE I ran to the road. First I proceeded in chasing Bunu, but then Dudu was running on the street and not into the sugar cane, then I ran towards Dudu, I joined the group which was chasing Dudu. MR MALAN Did you catch Dudu? Did you get hold of Dudu, did you catch her? MR CELE We didn't arrive there and catch her or hold her, what happened is that once she was there, that is when we started throwing stones and some of them kicked her. There was no time for us to hold her or to actually grab her, once we arrived there, we threw stones and we started kicking her, she fell down. MR MALAN And you threw only one big stone, you said? MR CELE I tried the small stones, but then one thing I know or one thing which was profound is that I took a big one when she was laying down, and then I threw it on her. MR MALAN Did you throw, you first threw some small stones, is that what you are saying? What was your part, you need to tell us unfortunately. How many stones did you throw at her? MR CELE It is not easy for me to actually count the stones, we were too many and too many people were throwing stones. The reason I took a bigger stone is because I thought that we were going to hit each other with the small stones and I took a bigger stone and then I threw it on her. MR MALAN How big was this stone, can you point us, can you show us with your hands? INTERPRETER He is actually showing the size of the stone. MR MALAN I would say that is about 30 cm's in diameter. Was it a round stone? MR CELE No, it wasn't a round stone, the shape is not as round, but we can say it is almost round, but not round. CHAIRPERSON Do you recall the evidence that was led by one of the Policemen at your criminal trial in which the stone was described, would you say it was, the stone that you threw at Dudu, that was described during your criminal trial, the big stone that was discovered next to her body? MR CELE Yes, I can agree. CHAIRPERSON And that was the biggest stone that was amongst the other stones, discovered around her? MR CELE Yes, I can agree with that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV DE JAGER Where did you hit her with this big stone, what part of her body? MR CELE Her head. ADV DE JAGER And did the stone crush her head? MR CELE I am not sure, I just threw the stone. CHAIRPERSON But the simple question is the stone that you threw at her, you threw it on her head? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MALAN Can you just explain to me, I find it difficult to understand that the other people apparently six of them that got the lashes, they were also in Amos' house when you went running to the house, they fled from Amos' house, is that correct? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN And they each had just received 300 lashes? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN And you were quite a large group of able young men, pursuing these would-be attackers that were now fleeing? MR CELE Yes. Let me just explain there, as I have already explained, I said after we slashed these people, we allowed them to go back and some of us, our group, we started dispersing and then later, when they saw that we were running back to Bunu's house, that is when others came back, not all the group. MR MALAN No, but at least the people, the comrades from Amadiqwe were with you? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN And some other people from your comrades that were involved in the lashing and in the court, the tribunal, your neighbours, there were quite a number of people present. Who ran towards Amos' house after the people from Amadiqwe arrived? MR CELE Many. I was one of those people, but we were many. MR MALAN And six people fled from the house, plus Dudu, but you couldn't catch any of the six? MR CELE No, we didn't catch them, they ran away. MR MALAN After you had lashed them, why did you allow them to go back to Amos' house if they were not from the area, why didn't you show them out of the area? MR CELE They did request that they needed to go to Amos' house because they left their clothes or their belongings there. CHAIRPERSON And that initially you were quite satisfied to leave matters as they were, to give them lashes and to let them go and to give them a warning never to come back to your area again, is that not so? It was only when the group, the comrades from Amadiqwe came in and told you that it was not wise to simply let them leave the area, but that you had to kill them, that you then decided that they should be killed? That is how I understood your evidence, is it not so? MR CELE Yes, that is so. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MALAN Sorry, why did Dudu have to be killed because Dudu was from the area or not? Was Dudu also from another area? MR CELE She came with them. She was the one who was supposed to show them me, because they didn't know me and she knew me. MR MALAN All right, sorry then, can you just explain to me how did she know you? MR CELE Dudu was Martin's sister, she did come to visit the area before and left. MR MALAN Did she visit often? MR CELE She never used to frequent, but she would come and visit the area, even my place, she would come to my place. ADV DE JAGER Wasn't she the sister of Martin? MR CELE Yes, she was Martin's sister. ADV DE JAGER And didn't she call out at you and asked for the hand of her brother? MR CELE No, she didn't. A male person shouted for Martin's hand, not her. CHAIRPERSON You are however, aware that evidence was led during your criminal trial to the effect that it was Dudu who called out, asking for her brother's arm and that during your criminal trial you maintained that it was not a female voice, but a male voice that called out. You still stand by that version you gave during the criminal trial, that it was a male voice and not a female voice? MR CELE Yes, I still stand that it was a male voice. MR MALAN When these comrades from Amadiqwe arrived, they came in a kombi you said and there were many of them? MR CELE Yes, a full load of a kombi. MR MALAN Did they alight from the kombi, did they get out of the kombi? MR CELE They alighted the kombi. MR MALAN And did you stand at the kombi and tell them at the kombi what happened? Was there a meeting with them? MR CELE They alighted the kombi and they came to us and we met with them, that is when they started questioning us and we explained everything to them. MR MALAN And you stood at that place where they met up with you, where they said you should have killed the people, not lashed them only? MR CELE Yes, I was present there. MR MALAN How did the decision, how was the decision taken to attack Amos Cele's house? MR CELE At that time, while we were standing there discussing, that is when we took the decision, because what they explained to us, we realised that what they are saying, was true, that if we let these people go freely, they are still a danger to us, they will come and attack us later and we also realised that they were still at Amos' house, they hadn't left. MR MALAN When was Amos' house burnt, before Dudu was killed or after Dudu was killed? MR CELE Before Dudu was killed. When we ran towards Amos' house, and when these people who were there, fled away and when we tried to chase those who fled away from Amos' house, those who remained at Amos' house, that is when they burnt Amos' house. MR MALAN Did you take part in the burning of Amos' house? MR CELE No, I was chasing those who fled Amos' house and those who remained behind, they are the ones who burnt down Amos' house. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Molohlanye, we request your indulgence, we deviated a bit from - you were still leading your evidence in chief. You may proceed to do so. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you very much, Chairperson. You told the Committee that Dudu was kicked and you threw a big stone on her head. What happened after that? MR CELE We left her there and no one was arrested at that time. We realised that we didn't catch the others who also ran away, we decided that we were supposed to hold a meeting the following week, we all went to our respective homes. MR MOLOHLANYE Mr Cele, in your affidavit, paragraph 15, there is a last statement that you made. Do you still hold that statement that you made in this affidavit? MR CELE What I know or whatever I took part on, it ends here, but when we were in a criminal court, I found out that I was told that I was also involved in other crimes, which I didn't take part. I don't know of the other incidents or crimes which were committed after. For instance Amos' murder, I didn't take any part, I was told that I was involved, but I wasn't there when he was murdered. ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly explain to me, you were the Chairperson of this Association that you founded there to protect the people? MR CELE No, I wasn't a Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Oh, but you were the leader of the group you formed? MR CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Your function as a leader, did you also sit in on the Court who would sentence people? MR CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Were you ever present at a Court meeting where it was decided that Amos should be killed? MR CELE No, I wasn't. ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether there was a meeting who decided that Amos should be killed? MR CELE No, I didn't know of any meeting because Amos was killed immediately after Dudu's murder. The situation at the time in our area, was so bad that Police were always there, were always around. ADV DE JAGER That day when you decided that Dudu should be killed, you also decided that the other people involved with her, should be killed? MR CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Was Amos one of the group of people that should have been killed on that day? MR CELE No, Amos didn't run away and we didn't take a decision to kill Amos. ADV DE JAGER Afterwards, after you had heard about Amos being killed, what was your attitude about his killing? MR CELE If you could please repeat this for me. ADV DE JAGER Do you think that it was a correct thing to kill Dudu at that stage, not now, at that stage, did you think that Dudu should be killed? MR CELE Yes, at that time, at that stage I thought it was a correct thing to do. ADV DE JAGER Right, now at that stage, was it the correct thing to kill Amos also? MR CELE No, I didn't see that as a correct thing. ADV DE JAGER Right, thank you. CHAIRPERSON May I with your indulgence Mr Molohlanye, I am getting a little confused with your evidence, Mr Cele, and this is really meant to assist you, I hope you understand that. Let me encapsulate your evidence as I comprehend it thus far. You have this meeting which happens at the hills where you usually held your "People's Courts", you decide to administer some lashes on the group that you had with you at that time, which did not include Dudu. You proceed to impose a sentence and you proceed to meet out punishment on that group of people who you estimated to be approximately seven. You then decide that Dudu must be located, you go back to the house, you search the house, you find Dudu hiding under the bed, you take her up to the hills where you again impose a sentence of 200 lashes on her and proceed to administer that sentence. At about that time, the comrades from Amadiqwe arrive in a kombi, they then give you some kind of wisdom about the decision that you had earlier on taken, and you then agree that these persons should not only be assaulted as you had already done, but that they should be killed and not only the people who were from outside your area, but those who assisted them which would mean Amos Cele and the people who were staying at his house. You agree with that decision, as a result of which you go to Amos Cele's house, precisely to carry out the decision that you have now taken jointly with the comrades from Amadiqwe and that is no longer to allow these people to leave, but to kill them and kill those people who had harboured them, that would be Amos Cele and his people. This is how I have been understanding your evidence. As it turned out, Amos Cele is not in the house and these people see you coming and they start dispersing in different directions. You then split into various groups, the others remain behind and they burn down Amos Cele's house. It is quite obvious to me the way I understand your evidence, that you had decided to kill these persons as advised by the comrades from Amadiqwe and that would include Mr Cele, Mr Amos Cele? Is that not so? MR CELE No, that is not so. The people from Amadiqwe, they only told us that we should kill the people who came to the area. We didn't even look for Amos, in fact when we arrived from Amos' house, the females were there and they were playing, even the kids were there. We didn't go after them, even though we had given or administered some strokes to them. We only chased the people who were not from the area. CHAIRPERSON In that case, I have not understood your evidence and I will request you to come back to this aspect which I consider quite essential to your case, to your application. What decision was actually taken with the comrades from Amadiqwe with regard to those people to whom you had administered lashes because you had administered lashes not only to people who were outsiders, you had administered lashes even to those people who were not from Umlazi. MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What decision was then taken by the comrades from ... (tape ends) ... repeat that evidence, it is very important, we have to understand you properly on that aspect of your evidence. MR CELE The comrade from Amadiqwe said to us we were wrong in just administering strokes to these people because we are allowing them to go back and arm themselves and come back and attack us. The easy way was for us to go after them and kill them. When we left there, we went to Amos' place in order to kill only the people who came from Umlazi. Things like burning down Amos' house, we didn't take any decision about that, but people who were there, who went there to attack the people from Umlazi at Amos' house, decided there and there to burn down his house, but the decision was not taken by us and the people from Amadiqwe. CHAIRPERSON So those who then burnt Amos Cele's house, did so outside the decision that was taken in conjunction with the comrades from Amadiqwe, is that what you are saying? The burning of Amos Cele's house was not part of the decision taken? MR CELE Yes, that is true. The decision wasn't taken there, but it was a usual thing at that time that when someone was going to be fetched somewhere, in a certain house, the house was going to be burnt, this was a usual thing, this used to occur all the time. So people just decided there and there to burn down the house, not that the comrades from Amadiqwe came with the idea. CHAIRPERSON Confine your response to questions pointedly put to you, I am not asking you about what used to happen. I want to know about the decision that was taken. It wasn't decided to burn Amos Cele's house, that wasn't the decision that you took jointly with the comrades from Amadiqwe? Yes or no? MR CELE No, we didn't take that decision, the only decision which was taken was that to kill the people who came from outside the area. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so how them do you state in your affidavit that you decided that the house should be attacked, because that appears in your affidavit, paragraph 14, line 5? Let me read it out to you, you state then it was decided, maybe I should start one line up "... then as they were leaving ..." you are now talking about these persons to whom you have just administered some lashes - "... a kombi with comrades from Amadiqwe arrived who were not satisfied with the sentence. Then it was decided that Amos Cele ..." I suppose it should have been Amos Cele's house ... "... should be attacked." Are you saying that portion of your evidence is incorrect because that is how it stands and that is how I comprehend it, that this was your decision? MR CELE Yes, we didn't talk about burning Amos' house, we only decided that we were going to attack his house and take the people who came there, or the people he had harboured in his house. CHAIRPERSON What did you literally mean by attacking his house? MR CELE We were going to look for the people who were in his house, because they were together with Bunu, that is Amos' son, because he was the one who was involved with these people. CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting that it was your intention also to kill Bunu because, is it Bunu or Bonny? MR CELE Bonny. CHAIRPERSON Bonny, yes, I think it has been incorrectly translated as Bunu, Bonny, are you saying therefore that it was your decision to kill Bonny as well? MR CELE Yes, he was going to be killed because the Amadiqwe comrades did ask who was with the people who came to attack us and we told them that they were with Bonny. CHAIRPERSON Was it your intention to kill Bonny or not? MR CELE If we did find Bonny, we were going to kill him because he was the one who came with these people from outside. CHAIRPERSON Were you not aggrieved by the fact that, you obviously were aggrieved by the fact that Bonny was there with these people whom you thought had come to attack you? You were aggrieved by that? MR CELE Yes, I didn't like the idea. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Were you therefore also not aggrieved by the fact that Amos Cele had dared to accommodate these people in his house? MR CELE No, at Mr Amos' house, there were many houses. There was also Bonny's house and these people were actually harboured at Bonny's house, not the main house which was Bonny's father's house, or Mr Amos' house. They were not from the main house, Mr Amos', they were from Bonny's, the outside house. CHAIRPERSON So far as you were concerned, you were happy that they should be inside the main kraal of Amos Cele as long as they didn't come from the main house, even though this was his kraal, you were happy with that? MR CELE The truth is I didn't like that, but I knew that if Bonny wasn't there at Mr Amos' house, there were not going to be people who will come and attack us, because Amos was an old man, but the reason they were there, it was because of Bonny. CHAIRPERSON Yes. How do you explain then the anger of the other people who were with you, who then decided to burn not Bonny's house but Amos Cele's house? MR CELE That wasn't the correct thing to do. CHAIRPERSON Mr Molohlanye, you may proceed. MR MOLOHLANYE So my last question was, do you still hold the statement Mr Cele, the last one in paragraph 15? MR CELE Yes, I do. MR MOLOHLANYE If so, thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Molohlanye. Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions to put to Mr Cele? MS THABETHE Madam Chair, I do but before I pose any questions, I would like to ask for a ten minute adjournment, there are a few issues I need to clarify before I proceed with my cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON You have in chambers indicated to the Committee that the relatives of the deceased and the victims, were present and that it was their intention to oppose this application? MS THABETHE That is correct Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON And you now seek an opportunity to consult with them with regard to the evidence tendered by Mr Cele before you can proceed to put questions to Mr Cele? MS THABETHE That is correct Madam Chair, I have consulted with them, but there are a few issues I need to clarify. CHAIRPERSON I think we will take a lunch adjournment, and we will reconvene at half past one. Will that be sufficient for you to consult and still have something to eat as well as the relatives and the objectors? MS THABETHE Yes, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON We will convene and start at half past one. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON I know that the applicant is five minutes late. Next time, please ensure that before the Committee moves in, the applicant is already seated. MR MOLOHLANYE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We must try to keep to time. If we are not going to do that, then we will not finish. MR MOLOHLANYE I apologise Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I want to simply note that we take a robust view to not commencing timeously, because of such unnecessary delays. Let them not re-occur. MS THABETHE As the Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, we adjourned when you were to commence with your cross-examination of Mr Cele. THULANI PERCIVAL CELE (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, thank you Ms Thabethe. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Cele, with regard to the family of Amos Cele or let me be more precise, with regard to Amos Cele, are you related to him in any way? MR CELE Yes. MS THABETHE Is it correct that he is your grandfather? MR CELE Yes. MS THABETHE You have also stated in your evidence earlier on that at this area, in particular, at Manyaseni, there was no political fighting, is that correct? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE Coming back to the incident firstly which happened on the 25th of December 1989, you in your evidence, you indicated that you were informed that there were people in the area who had come to attack you, is that correct, would I be right in putting it this way? MR CELE That is correct. MS THABETHE Exactly who had told you that these people came to attack you? MR CELE A small boy from the area, his name is Beko. CHAIRPERSON Won't you spell that for us? The name of the person who told you? MS THABETHE Can you spell that? MR CELE Beko. MS THABETHE Buko? MR CELE Beko. CHAIRPERSON Beko? CHAIRPERSON Is that his first name or his last name? MR CELE I only know him as Beko. CHAIRPERSON How old was this man? MS THABETHE There seems to be a problem with the sound with the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Can you hear me now? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON If you can just put down what you are holding on your hands, you will hear much better. Now can you hear me? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON How old was Beko? MR CELE I am not certain as to how old he was, but he was a small boy, young boy, but we were playing soccer with him. CHAIRPERSON Would you say he was approximately 15 years or younger than 15? MR CELE Yes, approximately 15 or younger. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Did you ask Beko where he got this from, this information from? MR CELE When I first heard about this, I didn't believe that that was the truth, I only believed that it was the truth when I saw the people. MS THABETHE I will leave that question for now, even though... CHAIRPERSON Don't leave it, won't you just for completeness sake round it up. When were you told by Beko that certain people wanted to kill you, when was this? MR CELE On the 24th. CHAIRPERSON And where was this, was this at your house? MR CELE At home. CHAIRPERSON Did he indicate who wanted to kill you? MR CELE No, he only told me that there were people who arrived and he heard that they arrived here to kill me because they wanted to pay revenge on Martin's death. CHAIRPERSON Where was Beko staying at that time? MR CELE At Manyaseni. CHAIRPERSON Was he staying with the Cele's? MR CELE No, he was staying at his home. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair, maybe I should follow up my question. My question was did he tell you how he got to know of the fact that these people were looking for you, that was my question? Where did he hear this from? MR CELE No, he didn't tell me and also I didn't ask him. MS THABETHE In your statement on paragraph 8, you say "... the house belonged to Amos Cele who was an IFP member." How do you know this? MR CELE I knew that because sometimes IFP supporters would come to Amos' house. Even IFP meetings will sometimes be held at his house. MS THABETHE My instructions, Mr Cele, are that Amos Cele did not belong to any political organisation, what is your response to that? MR CELE I deny that because I have full information that he was a supporter of a member of the IFP, but there was no conflict between us. MS THABETHE Is it your evidence, am I understanding you correctly if you say the fact that he was an IFP member, was not a source of any dispute in your area, is that what you are saying? MR CELE The time I am referring at, at the time, in that area, there were no conflicts but there were conflicts in the neighbouring areas. MS THABETHE I will take that answer to be yes, there was no problem with the fact that you saw him as an IFP member, even though I have been instructed that he was not an IFP member. Do you want to say anything on that? MR CELE At the time, I have never experienced any or I have never seen any conflict between him and others. MS THABETHE You also state in your statement that you called on Nococanya who was staying with the deceased, Martin Ngcobo and you asked them who the people who had visited Amos Cele's house were and their response was that they didn't know who these people were, do you remember saying that? MR CELE I didn't call Nococanya, I personally. CHAIRPERSON I don't think that is what is being put to you, what is being put to you is that you had a discussion with Nococanya and her mother Diana, yes Diana? MR CELE Yes, I did speak with them. MS THABETHE And according to your evidence they responded that they didn't know what these people wanted. Is that correct? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE According to my instructions Mr Cele, apparently they told you that these people were Martin Ngcobo's relatives who had come to see Martin Ngcobo's three month old baby and who had also come to find out whether they could find the other parts that were missing in his body. What is your response to that? MR CELE No, I wasn't told about this. MS THABETHE Did you know that Martin was staying with Nococanya? MR CELE Yes, I knew that. MS THABETHE Did you know that they had a three month old baby? MR CELE Even though I didn't know the months of the baby, but I knew that they had a baby together. MS THABETHE Did you know that the people who had come to Amos Cele's house were related to Martin Ngcobo? MR CELE No, I didn't know that. MS THABETHE Who did you think these ... ADV DE JAGER Sorry, did Dudu, the deceased come with them or was she staying at your place, in your vicinity, your area? MR CELE If you could please repeat that question. ADV DE JAGER Didn't Dudu come with the people from Umlazi? MR CELE Yes, she came with them. ADV DE JAGER And you knew she was the sister of the deceased, Martin? MR CELE Yes, I know that. But at the time when I had a conversation with Nococanya, Diana and Simon, I didn't know that the people from Umlazi came with Dudu. MS THABETHE Thank you. I just wanted to make a follow up of the question that I have asked, you are saying you never knew who these people were before you spoke to Nococanya, is that your evidence? MR CELE No, I didn't know that. The only thing I knew is that there were people, I was told that there were people who came to pay revenge on Martin's death and that is why I asked Nococanya because I knew that Nococanya was related to Martin or was a wife or Martin. I wanted relatives to explain if they have any idea about these people who came, but then I didn't know who they were. MS THABETHE Mr Cele, do you know or did you know that Nococanya is Amos Cele's daughter? MR CELE Yes. MS THABETHE So was it strange to you if these people came to Nococanya's father's house instead of coming to her house, was that strange to you? MR CELE Nococanya is also my relative, even though we are staying in different houses. MS THABETHE My question is was it strange that they came to Amos, they arrived in Amos Cele's house instead of Nococanya's house bearing in mind that Nococanya was Amos Cele's daughter? My question is was there anything strange? MR CELE I don't quite understand your question, I would like you to clarify. CHAIRPERSON May I just explain. What is being asked of you is whether you found it peculiar that the people who allegedly came from Umlazi had gone to Nococanya's place instead of going to - had gone to Amos Cele's house instead of going to Nococanya's house? MR CELE Yes, it was strange to me that why if they came to pay revenge, they came to Amos Cele's house, not from Nococanya's house. CHAIRPERSON You don't seem to be responding pointedly to the question. You have now introduced another element, now just try and confine your answers to what is being put to you without having to elaborate because in doing so, you are also confusing your own evidence. Was there anything strange when these persons came to Amos Cele's house and not to Nococanya's house? Yes, if you think there was, and then you may proceed to elaborate why you thought it was strange. MR CELE I have never seen these people to that area, this was my first time to see these people. Dudu was the one who usually comes to the area to visit, but the place she would visit was Nococanya's, not Amos' place. MS THABETHE Mr Cele, I put it to you that since there were five people who had come from Umlazi, and they had come to Nococanya's home or Nococanya's father's home, there was nothing strange about that, what is your response? CHAIRPERSON Hasn't he just responded to that, Ms Thabethe? He says it was strange because Dudu used to visit Nococanya and not Amos Cele, you can take it no further than that, I think. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. You have also mentioned on paragraph 9, Mr Cele, that there were people standing outside and they were shouting that they wanted Martin's hand or arm. MR CELE Yes. MS THABETHE How many people were shouting that, can you remember? MR CELE I cannot remember how many people, but there were a few people who were outside. MS THABETHE Were they just shouting or were they shouting at you? MR CELE They were just shouting to the direction of my house and I wasn't the only one who was at my house, my other sisters were there as well. They said a lot, but what I can remember is what they have directed to me, they asked me specific, that is what I can remember. MS THABETHE My next question was going to be, I guess I should ask that question, how did you know that these comments that they wanted Martin's hand and arm, were directed to you? MR CELE They asked me who was Thulani and I said I was Thulani and they said they are coming to fetch Martin's hand. MS THABETHE My instructions Mr Cele, are that there is no such incident that happened. The only thing that happened is Dudu Ngcobo did mention the fact that they were looking for Martin's hand or arm, whilst she was standing outside Amos Cele's home which happened to be next to yours, and that is how you heard about this comment, but it was not directed to you. What is your comment to that? MR CELE I don't know about that. MS THABETHE In your evidence you have stated that the reason why you took these people into the hill where they were sjamboked, it is because they were people who came to attack your house? Do you remember that evidence? MR CELE You mean us taking them to the hill? MS THABETHE Maybe I should read what you say in paragraph 10. You say "... on the 26th of December, we waited for them, myself, Roy and my other friends. All my friends left at 11.00 am, then these people saw an opportunity and came towards my house." My instructions are that no such incident occurred, what is your comment to that? MR CELE To me it is still exactly what I have stated. CHAIRPERSON I think what is being asked of you is, why did you wait for them to attack you and you had to wait in the company as you have alleged at paragraph 10 of Roy Cele and your other friends on the 26th of December? Have they given or made any suggestion that they would be attacking you, I think that is what is being asked of you? MR CELE This is after I heard that the reason they came there, they came to pay revenge on Martin's death and that is why my friends stayed with me, because they realised that I was alone and if they were to leave me alone, I was going to be easily attacked, therefore they stayed with me until late and the next morning, they decided to go back to their respective homes to bed and eat, that is when they started shouting or approaching my house. CHAIRPERSON Do you recall that when you were giving your evidence in chief, you intimated that you became aware that these persons had come to attack you around the 24th and that is when they arrived, on the evening of the 24th? No, I will correct myself, because as I am putting it to you, I am reading my note "... they arrived on the evening of the 24th and we discovered that or there was a rumour that they had come to launch some revenge attacks for Martin's death on the 25th of December." That was the ambit of your evidence in relation to this point. My question is, and I need clarity from you, when you heard on the 25th about this rumour that these persons had come to launch retaliatory attacks for Martin's death, what made you believe that that attack would be launched on the 26th because your friends came to keep you company on the 26th and not on the 25th? How did you know that the attacks were going to be launched on a particular day? MR CELE No, my friends didn't come on the 26th, I was with them all along. On the 26th in the morning, that is when they left. I was with them the previous night. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I note I have made an error. You have intimated to that extent at paragraph 9 and 10. You may proceed Ms Thabethe, that was an error on my part. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. On paragraph 12 of your statement you say "... after gathering it was decided that these people should be fetched and questioned about their presence in the area." My question to you is when you took the people who were in that house, for questioning, you also took the people belonging to this family, not only the people who had come into this house, who were outsiders, why did you do that? MR CELE We didn't take very member of the family, we took the people who came to Amos' house and we also took Bonny. The female from Amos' house, they volunteered to come, we didn't call them, they came on their own. MS THABETHE I must say Mr Cele, I find that very strange. You were armed, isn't it when you came to Amos Cele's house? MR CELE Yes, we were armed. MS THABETHE You were a group of, a large number of people, males, isn't that correct? MR CELE Yes, there were also females amongst us. MS THABETHE But it was predominantly males, is that so? MR CELE Yes. MS THABETHE Now your evidence is that you only took Bonny Cele and the other girls followed voluntarily after people who were well armed and predominantly male? I find that very strange to comprehend. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, do you have evidence or instructions to the contrary? MS THABETHE Yes Madam. CHAIRPERSON If you do, won't you just put it to him? MS THABETHE I put it to you Mr Cele that the females who were in that house, were forced out of that house into the hills for questioning, by yourselves because you were armed. What is your comment to that? MR CELE No, that is not true. CHAIRPERSON What you are saying is that it was not your intention to take women, the local women, to your "People's Court", is that what you are saying, they came of their own volition? MR CELE When we left and approached Mr Amos' house, we were looking for the people who were armed and that is why we surrounded his house, because we were basically looking for the people who were armed, who were at Mr Amos' house. CHAIRPERSON If that is so, can you explain to this Committee why then you proceeded to impose a sentence on the people who had voluntarily come to that "People's Court", because in your evidence in chief, you yourself stated that you imposed a sentence, 50 strokes had to be administered on those women? MR CELE When we arrived there and when they were there, they were present there, when they were questioned, they were answering and they were also giving up their ideas and also, they didn't want Bunu to be part of what we were going to do there to these people who came from Umlazi. They didn't want us to punish Bonny, they wanted us to punish only the people who came from Umlazi, but then we didn't want to punish only those people, we wanted to punish them together with Bonny because that was the reason for them to be there. That is why we ended up punishing those females as well. The only person who we went and fetched who was a female, was Nococanya because we wanted to question Nococanya. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Ms Thabethe. We are obviously having regard to your earlier evidence with regard to why you punished these women, we however will not belabour this proceedings by putting what you initially said in your evidence in chief, which is contrary to what you are saying now. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Earlier on in your evidence, you had stated that when you took these people up in the hill for questioning, you questioned them on their political affiliation, do you remember saying that? MR CELE Yes, I do. MS THABETHE Why did you do that? MR CELE As I have already explained that we already suspected because of the way they came to the area, and the people whom they came to their house, or the relatives they came to them, denied and the person whom was closer to them, was Bonny, who was running away because he was involved in other incidents. CHAIRPERSON How did you know that Bonny was closer to these people? MR CELE One could see because they were with Bonny. They were one group and in those days, it was easy to identify because people belonging to an ANC organisation, will be together all the time, and IFP will be together, and people will easily know if you are an ANC or IFP. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but these persons were coming there for the first time, is that not so, that is your evidence? You only knew Dudu out of the whole lot, you did not know the others, so how would you have known that they are a close association with Bonny? Just by that encounter? MR CELE No, I am not referring to the group who just came to that area for the first time. I am talking about the Senora's, the people who used to go to people's houses and ... (tape ends) ... but people from the community, they knew who they were. CHAIRPERSON But Ms Thabethe is not questioning you about any other persons other than the ones that you thought came from Umlazi and were there to kill you, those are the person which you are being questioned about and only those persons. How did you know that those persons had a close association with Bonny? That is your earlier evidence? MR CELE They were together with Bonny on that day, even on the day when they came to my house, they were with Bonny. CHAIRPERSON Proceed, Ms Thabethe? ADV DE JAGER MR CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Was she an IFP member? Beauty? MR CELE No, I don't have any idea about that. ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether Martin was an IFP member? MR CELE No, he just came to the area, I didn't know him very well at that time. ADV DE JAGER What as the trouble between you and Martin? MR CELE There was no trouble or any problem between me and Martin. ADV DE JAGER Wasn't there trouble about money? MR CELE There was a long time ago, before his death and in fact, on his death, it was already been resolved. ADV DE JAGER What was this trouble about? MR CELE He had my money, I am not sure whether he lost it or he just didn't want to give me back my money. Then there was a problem and I decided to go and approach Nococanya and explained to her about the money and I was paid this money, but it wasn't Martin, it was Diana who paid me back. ADV DE JAGER So Martin refused to pay you the money back that he owed you? MR CELE No, he didn't refuse. ADV DE JAGER Well, Diana paid it to you, not Martin? MR CELE Yes, Diana paid it. ADV DE JAGER How did Martin get hold of this money of yours? MR CELE Martin took my bag, it was on a Friday. He took it like he was playing. It is a bag, not a bag where you put money, the one which we used to put money was inside that bag, that big bag. ADV DE JAGER So you and Martin knew each other for a long time? MR CELE No, not a long time. ADV DE JAGER Well, at least - when was this money taken, you have known him since then or did you know him before that? MR CELE I have known him before he took my bag. ADV DE JAGER That was almost a year before or six months before he was killed? MR CELE What are you referring to? ADV DE JAGER When he took the money, it was more than, it was 11 months before he had been killed, he took this money roundabout February, wasn't it, January? MR CELE Yes, we can say that even though I am not sure, but it is the same year, it was in 1989. ADV DE JAGER So you have known him at least for at least 11 months, but maybe even a year earlier, maybe two years almost? MR CELE When the incident of the money occurred, he just came to the area. When he arrived at the area, we were there, we were the first people he came to know. ADV DE JAGER Yes, right. Okay, now I just want to put it to you that you have known him for at least a year before he died. MR CELE Yes, I can agree with that. ADV DE JAGER And I have asked you whether he was an IFP member, he stayed in that area of yours for at least a year? MR CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER So do you know whether he was an IFP member or not? MR CELE No, I don't have any idea when it comes to his political affiliation, I never actually paid attention on his affiliation, because he would come to the area and then leave and then come. ADV DE JAGER Dudu stayed in the area, was she an IFP member? MR CELE Dudu never stayed in the area. ADV DE JAGER MR CELE I never used to see Dudu in any political meetings whether IFP or ANC. ADV DE JAGER MR CELE Yes, I am referring. ADV DE JAGER Her name was Beauty, isn't that so? MR CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Now was she an IFP member? MR CELE No, I didn't know. ADV DE JAGER Didn't you tell us that in your area the people of the two parties were flocking together, they visited each other and you knew, it was obvious to which party you would belong? MR CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER And to which party, with whom did she associated, with the IFP's or the ANC's? MR CELE As I have already explained that we will know how a person or what political organisation a person belonged, by associating with other people who were in that organisation, but with Beauty, she was working outside the area and sometimes she would stay wherever she is working and come back weekends and she never associated with people from any political organisation. ADV DE JAGER And Martin's death had nothing to do with politics as far as you know, there was no rumour that he was killed because he belonged to a certain political party? MR CELE No, I didn't hear any rumour. ADV DE JAGER And these people coming from Umlazi, they didn't accuse you or the ANC that you had killed Martin because he was a political opponent? MR CELE All I know is that they accused me of his death and as to what reason they had in order to accuse me of Martin's death, I don't know. ADV DE JAGER Now the deceased in this case, Dudu, the woman that you had killed with the stone, throwing the stone at her head, there is no dispute now, we are talking about her now, did she belong to the IFP? MR CELE At the time, I didn't have full information about her political affiliation. ADV DE JAGER So why did you kill her, it was no political reasons then? MR CELE The reason she was killed is because she brought the people who came from Umlazi to the area to actually point at me or us. ADV DE JAGER So the only reason why you killed her was because she came with the people from Umlazi? MR CELE The aim was to kill all of them, the only reason she was the only one killed, is because she couldn't run faster, but the aim was to kill all of them. It was so unfortunate that she couldn't run faster than the others, because the decision was taken that the reason they came, they came because they wanted to kill. ADV DE JAGER Who did they want to kill, you? MR CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER And for what reason did they want to kill you? MR CELE I don't know, I think they can explain this much better than me, what I did ask them is that why they came from Umlazi to my area. ADV DE JAGER Yes, and what did they say? MR CELE They said Amos and Nococanya came and told them that they knew the person who had Martin's hand. ADV DE JAGER Sorry for interrupting. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Cele, you gave evidence and you have just given evidence again that the family of Martin Ngcobo was told by Nococanya and Amos Cele that they could get their hand from you. MR CELE Yes. MS THABETHE My instructions, Mr Cele, are that this is not true. Further, my instructions are that it is true that Kanyo or Beauty and Amos Cele went to Umlazi looking for Martin Ngcobo because he had been missing for two days or more and they went to Umlazi to look for him and they did not find him and they came back to Inanda. It is not true that they had told the family of Martin Ngcobo that the arm and the leg could be found at Inanda, because at that stage when they went to Umlazi, they did not know that Martin Ngcobo had died. Do you have any comment on what I have just said? MR CELE I do not have any information whether what they are saying is true or not, but I was told by those people who came from Umlazi that Amos and Nococanya came and told them that they could find Martin's hand. MS THABETHE Where and when did they tell you this? MR CELE When we were questioning them at the meeting, when we were questioning them about why they came and how they came. MS THABETHE My instructions with regard to the questioning in the hills are that the question you asked as who told them that you had killed Martin Ngcobo, that is the question you asked them and not all the other questions that you have stated that you asked. What is your comment to that? MR CELE Who said so? MS THABETHE It is my instructions Mr Cele, can you answer the question. Did you ask who they had got it from that you had killed Martin Ngcobo at the hill, or didn't you? CHAIRPERSON The people that you questioned during the "People's Court" proceedings? MR CELE No, that is not true. MS THABETHE You also stated in your evidence that at the hill you found arms from the people you were questioning. Do you remember that evidence? MR CELE Yes, I do remember that. MS THABETHE From whom did you get these arms? MR CELE One came from Bonny, the other one came from Ernest and the third one from one, a very light in complexion guy who had a perm in his head, I don't remember his name. MS THABETHE Whereabouts in their bodies did you get these firearms? MR CELE The one I took from Bonny, he had hidden it here as he is pointing, in front of his pants. MS THABETHE Do you remember in your evidence you said that you asked Ernest Ngcobo whether he belonged to the ANC or IFP and he said he belonged to the ANC? MR CELE Yes, I do remember. MS THABETHE My question to you is why was he beaten if he belonged to the ANC, you also belonged to the ANC? MR CELE My problem was that they were attacking and we realised that he was just saying that because they were attacking and he realised that we caught them and we asked them simple questions which one will know if one is an ANC member. MS THABETHE Where had they attacked? MR CELE Who? MS THABETHE Ernest Ngcobo? MR CELE They came to attack there, to attack me. CHAIRPERSON If you did not believe anything that Ernest Ngcobo said about his political affiliations, what was the import of even putting the question to any of them, knowing that they will say anything to save their skin? What purpose were you seeking to serve in having to put questions of political affiliation to people that you knew, they will say anything? MR CELE I never took a decision on my own, we took decisions as a group. If the group decided that we were going to do this, that is what we will go. The organisation and the community decided that we should take them to the "People's Court" and ask them questions so that we found out whether the people came really to attack or they just came because of the vacation or the December vacation. CHAIRPERSON You as the leader of the structure at Manyaseni, did you not have any kind of influence with regard to the mood and how things were being conducted by the group on that particular day? MR CELE Yes, as a leader, I will say something, but to a certain extent like for instance, I did say that the females shouldn't be sjamboked like the males, because they didn't do so much. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean by saying the females shouldn't be sjamboked equally like males, because they hadn't done much? What have they done if there was anything at all that they had done? Had they done anything? MR CELE They were not respecting the group, even the way they were talking to the group, they were not respecting the group. I think that is the reason why the group ended up sjamboking them. Because in that area, even drinking alcohol as a female or swearing at someone, or going out with two men, was a crime in that area. As a female, you do not talk to males, the way they talked to this group and this is why the group decided that they should be sjamboked. That is why I had to ask for them to be sjamboked less than the males. CHAIRPERSON Let me get clarity without belabouring this point, the reason why you took a decision to punish the women was because of their behaviour during the questioning of the people who were from outside Manyaseni? Would I be correct in summarising your evidence in that fashion? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON In that case, it had nothing to do with politics? MR CELE I personally perceived this as a political act because if they didn't behave the way they did, they were not going to be sjamboked. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you are talking now about women, the reason why you punished them was because of their moral behaviour, because women are supposed to behave in a particular fashion and they didn't conform to the expected behaviour of women, it wasn't because of their political activism? MR CELE Yes, but the people who were involved, more especially the decision makers, decided that females shouldn't behave the way they did. They way they were speaking to the group, the group decided that it was unacceptable for them, for the females to speak to them that way, so they decided that they were a problem. CHAIRPERSON Let's not dilly-dally on this point, it is a very simple issue. The punishment you meted out on those women, was because of their behaviour, not because of the fact that they had done anything politically to you? It was not because of their political activities, but it was because of their behaviour during your questioning of the people who were coming from Umlazi? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair, coming to the attack on Dudu Ngcobo, my instructions are that when you came down to look for Dudu Ngcobo, you with other people, went into the house of Amos Cele and you only found Zodwa Cele in the house. What is your comment to that, your response to that? MR CELE I did not quite get that. MS THABETHE When you went into the house, there was only Zodwa Cele in the house? MR CELE When we were looking for Dudu? MS THABETHE Yes? MR CELE I cannot remember correctly. MS THABETHE Further that you questioned her about the whereabouts of Dudu and you also pressed a bushknife and you assaulted her, what is your response to that? MR CELE I have no knowledge thereof. What I do remember is that the only reason we went to fetch her is because she was the only person absent. MS THABETHE Maybe I have confused you, I am not talking about the incident where you went to fetch Dudu from the house and you took her up to the mountain, I am not talking about that incident. CHAIRPERSON I think you have not been clear yourself, Ms Thabethe, when you put questions. The first question that you put to him, won't you just make it quite clear that you are now talking about the incident after Dudu had been sjamboked and had been allowed to leave and that he thereafter, later after having allowed her to leave, went inside, that he, himself, went inside the house looking for Dudu and only found Zodwa Cele in the house. MS THABETHE I am indebted to you Madam Chair. That is the question, I don't know whether you want me to repeat it? CHAIRPERSON You understood how it was rephrased that question, after you had administered the 200 lashes on Dudu Ngcobo and had allowed her to go back and had instructed her to leave the area, you later went inside Amos Cele's house whereat you found a lady by the name of Zodwa Cele. You then questioned Zodwa Cele and asked about the whereabouts of Dudu Ngcobo. MR CELE That is not correct. CHAIRPERSON And that you further assaulted her in the process of questioning her about the whereabouts of Dudu Ngcobo? MR CELE That is not correct. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Further my instructions Mr Cele, are that you proceeded to run after Dudu and you not only killed her, you not only beat her or stoned her, but you also used bushknives to kill her. What is your response to that? CHAIRPERSON Do you mean he used a bushknife? MS THABETHE Yes, Madam Chair. MR CELE No, that did not take place. MS THABETHE Are you saying it never happened or are you saying you never bushed her, but she was bushed by somebody else? CHAIRPERSON Are you saying the evidence will show that Mr Cele stabbed Dudu Ngcobo with a bushknife, that is the evidence you will lead? MS THABETHE Yes, Madam Chair. MR CELE That I stabbed her? CHAIRPERSON Yes, using a bushknife? MR CELE No, never used a bushknife, nobody used a bushknife. MS THABETHE My other question to you Mr Cele is exactly on what grounds was a decision to kill Dudu Ngcobo, reached? MR CELE The decision was not taken merely specifically about Dudu, but with regards to everyone who had come. CHAIRPERSON Won't you come again for my sake, Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE On what grounds was a decision reached to kill Dudu Ngcobo? MR MALAN Sorry Ms Thabethe, but was the evidence not that they were counselled by this group of people, the comrades, who arrived in the kombi, not simply to lash people because they would be able to mobilise and take revenge, and that they should be killed? Wasn't that his evidence? And that they acted upon that counsel? MS THABETHE That was the evidence Member of the Committee, but what I am asking is what were the grounds for reaching such a decision? CHAIRPERSON Maybe you want to rephrase your question because as it stands, it is going to elicit the same kind of evidence which has already been adduced before this Committee that the reason why they killed Ms Dudu Ngcobo was because of the advice given by the groups of comrades from Amadiqwe. If you put your question in that way, that is the evidence that we will get, which evidence we already have, unless obviously you want to find out why. MS THABETHE I am indebted to you Members of the Committee, maybe I should go back a bit on my instructions. Mr Cele, let me start here with regard to the people of Amadiqwe, my instructions are that the people of Amadiqwe were fetched by one of your people to come into your area, what is your comment to that? CHAIRPERSON When you say the people, are you still referring to the same people that we know from the evidence led before us, as comrades? MS THABETHE Yes, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Maybe we should stick to the word comrades, so that we don't get confused. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair, I will repeat my question. According to my instruction, the comrades who eventually advised you to kill Dudu Ngcobo, were actually fetched by one of your people, I am just looking for his name here, Madam Chair, if you could bear with me, by Qwazi, who is your half-brother. MR CELE I would deny that because when all of this occurred Qwazi was with me. MS THABETHE My instructions further are that Qwazi went to fetch the comrades from Amadiqwe, using taxi's, and he was actually seen coming back with the comrades in two taxi's and they also had containers filled with petrol. Do you have any comment on that? MR CELE That is not correct. MS THABETHE My next question is, when you met the comrades according to your evidence, you met the comrades, isn't it, after you had given lashes to the victims, exactly what did you tell the comrades about what had taken place? MR CELE I told them everything that had happened. MS THABETHE The fact that you were suspected of killing Martin and the fact that you had taken the people from Amos Cele's house to question them about that, would I be correct to say that? MR CELE What they wanted to know was the purpose of these persons' presence. MS THABETHE Yes, what I am asking you is, did you tell them it is because they suspected you of killing Martin Ngcobo and as a result, you decided to question them and lashes were given out or lashes were, they were beaten? Is that what you explained to the comrades? MR CELE Through you Chairperson, ... MS THABETHE And then after explaining this, they said no, these people should be killed? MR MALAN Ms Thabethe, just a second, you are losing us because the Interpreter started to give the answer after your first question, when what came to us is what they wanted to know and then you kept on talking, so I would appreciate it if you would follow the interpretation in order to allow us to follow what is going on. May I get back to the original question there where Ms Thabethe interrupted the answers through not listening to the interpretation. You were asked whether you told these comrades everything about the suspicion that these people had, that you killed Martin, the questioning around what followed after the accusation of you being involved in Martin's death? Did you tell all of this to the comrades? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN Then you started to say what they wanted to know, what did the comrades then want to know from you? MR CELE They wanted to know what decisions were taken with regards to these people. MR MALAN Sorry for interrupting now, but didn't you tell them when you told them that they came there, they called on you for Martin's arm, they were suspicious that you were responsible for Martin's death, that you questioned the people about their political affiliation, didn't you tell them about having sjamboked them? MR CELE I did inform them. MR MALAN So why did they ask again about the decision? MR CELE They questioned me, they asked me as we were talking, as we were discussing and they were not satisfied with the decision or with the steps that were taken against these people. MR MALAN What was their interest and why could they be satisfied or not satisfied if they were not from your area? MR CELE They had just come because we were all comrades. At that time there was co-operation and we used to assist one another in whatever way. MR MALAN No please, didn't you tell us earlier that at the time of this incident, there was no co-operation yet? That was your evidence and you said specifically that came later. MR MOLOHLANYE Through you Chairperson, in the evidence in chief, it was made clear by the applicant that the co-operation had already started before the incidents in Manyaseni area. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MALAN My apology, I will check my notes. CHAIRPERSON I recall that. I am a little disturbed by your response to questions being put to you from the bench. I had earlier on understood the gist of your evidence in relation to the comrades from Amadiqwe to have been that they knew already about what was happening by the time they came to that place? I recall this because I think I questioned you on this and because I was questioning you, I was not taking notes. But this is what I seem to recall having asked you how they knew about this whole incident and you said you don't know how they knew, somebody must have told them, but by the time they reached where you were, they already were abreast with the situation. I am now a little troubled by your now recent evidence which seems to suggest that they were actually brought up to speed by the information that you furnished to them. Do you get my problem? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now can you comment on the problem I have? MR CELE As I explained before, I did not know who had fetched them or how they came to this area but the moment that they arrived, it became clear that they did have knowledge of what was going on, but they wanted to know from us just what was going on at the time and what we were doing about it. That was when they disapproved of our decision to just sjambok and let these people go, because they felt that it was wrong that they had come from so far a place to attack us and then we just let them go. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. With regard to the killing of Amos Cele ... CHAIRPERSON Before you leave, are you leaving this point because if you are, I would like to interpose again, just put one question of clarity which actually is a follow up from what the Member of my Committee has put to you. What exact authority was enjoyed by the comrades of Amadiqwe on the activities of your structure? MR CELE They did not have any authority, but as comrades involved in different areas, we were at different levels. Some people were more experienced than others. CHAIRPERSON Was it usual for your structure to not just give advice, but to give overriding decisions in other structures outside your area? Like would you have come with the same decision on issues affecting the comrades at Amadiqwe? MR CELE It could have been possible, the usual policy was that if there were problems in an area, there would be persons or comrades from other areas who would be requested to come and assist depending on how serious the matter was. When they arrived, they already knew that there were people who had come to attack the area. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. ... (tape ends) ... MR CELE: I only learnt of it later. MS THABETHE Is it correct that he was petrol bombed or petrol was sprayed on top of his body and he was burnt? CHAIRPERSON Are you asking him to give a hearsay evidence? MS THABETHE I will withdraw the question then, Madam Chair. My last question to you Mr Cele is ... MR MALAN I think you may phrase that question in a different way, did anyone tell you how Amos Cele was killed? MR CELE I only heard that he was dead, but with regards to how he was killed, nobody explained to me. MR MALAN And you never asked? MR CELE At that time, there was no specific person that I could have asked because I heard about it when I arrived home in the evening. MR MALAN I understood or I understand that Amos Cele was your grandfather? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN Your grandfather dies and you don't ask how he came to his death? MR CELE He did not reside at the area at the time of his death, his house had already been burnt. MR MALAN When was he killed? CHAIRPERSON On the 28th. MR MALAN On the 28th, three days later? MR CELE Yes, I think so. MR MALAN Thank you. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair, I think something arose out of the applicant's evidence that I would like to follow up. You have stated that he wasn't staying at his house any more because his house was burnt down. My instructions are that there was one house, there was one hut that remained and actually Amos Cele stayed in that house and when he was killed, he was taken out of that hut. Would you know anything about this? MR CELE No, I do not have any knowledge thereof. MS THABETHE Would you dispute this that when the house was burnt, not all the huts were burnt, there was one hut ... MR MALAN Ms Thabethe, we really can't follow because you are not following the interpretation and we don't get the answers. You follow up and the Interpreter is not interpreting to us, please if you will follow the interpretation too. MS THABETHE I apologise Honourable member of the Committee. Where would you like me to begin? MR MALAN The question was put to you that the instructions are that Amos stayed in the one house in the kraal that was not burnt, he was taken out of that house and killed. The question was put, would you dispute that, we haven't heard your answer. MR CELE I do not have any knowledge thereof. All that I know is that the house was burnt and nobody remained there. MR MALAN I understood you earlier to say that your house was next to Amos' house, the place where you lived? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN In the same kraal, the same area? MR CELE It is not the same kraal, but opposite. MR MALAN But you did not see him in his kraal, for the next three days, you never saw him again? MR CELE No, I did not. MR MALAN Thank you. MS THABETHE My last question to you Mr Cele is, was it necessary to kill Dudu Ngcobo and Amos Cele? MR MALAN I think he already on Amos said that he did not believe that he should have been killed, that it was wrong. MS THABETHE I will rephrase my question then, was it necessary to kill Dudu Ngcobo? MR CELE On that day or ... CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, shouldn't you rephrase that question so as to assist this Committee to reach a just and equitable decision, having regard to the requirements of the Act which speaks to one having to determine whether an act is an act associated with a political objective, pertinently, whether any political objective was achieved or what political objective would have been achieved through the killing of Dudu Ngcobo? MS THABETHE I will try Madam Chair. Mr Cele, in your evidence you have given that Dudu Ngcobo was killed because the comrades had given an order that she be killed. My question to you is, why was it necessary or was it necessary, to kill Dudu Ngcobo in your opinion? MR CELE Yes. MS THABETHE Why? MR CELE Because she had been with the people who had come to attack, the decision to kill them, did not limit itself to Dudu, but to everybody else who had been in the area to attack. MS THABETHE What was political about that? MR CELE Our intention was to eliminate or to drive away the people who had come to attack our area, such that they would be unable to return and do the same thing. MS THABETHE And by killing Dudu Ngcobo, did you achieve this objective? MR CELE Please repeat that. MS THABETHE By killing Dudu Ngcobo, did you achieve that objective? MR CELE At that time, I did not know whether these people had come in collusion or under her intentions, but all I can say is that the plan to kill her, was not limited just to Dudu, but to everybody else. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe. Mr Molohlanye, do you have any re-examination? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes Chairperson, I have only one question. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may do your re-examination. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLOHLANYE You said comrades from Amadiqwe came to your area, is that so? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MR MOLOHLANYE Amadiqwe, is that a neighbouring area or is it a place far from Manyaseni? MR CELE It is a neighbouring area, I can walk from Manyaseni to Amadiqwe on foot. CHAIRPERSON Actually, when he was giving his evidence in chief, he estimated that it would be a distance of from here to Durban station, unfortunately we are not familiar with this place ourselves, and we would need to get an approximation. Can Ms Thabethe and yourself assist this Committee by estimating how far that is? MS THABETHE Approximately four kilometres. MR MALAN May I just follow up on this, asking how long would it take you to walk from where you lived, to Amadiqwe? MR CELE I cannot be certain, but if I were to walk casually, it would take me about 45 minutes to an hour. MR MALAN Thank you. MR MOLOHLANYE So, Amadiqwe was not very far from Manyaseni as you made us to understand, it was one of the surrounding areas around your area? MR CELE Yes, it was one of the neighbouring areas. MR MOLOHLANYE In your examination in chief, you mentioned that there were already fights between the IFP and ANC members in the surrounding areas? CHAIRPERSON But not in Manyaseni? MR CELE Yes, there were political killings. CHAIRPERSON Mr Molohlanye, I hope you bear in mind his evidence because it was quite crystal clear that there was no political conflict at Manyaseni which is his area, but that there were some political conflicts in the other neighbouring areas, but not at Manyaseni which is where this incident took place. MR MOLOHLANYE Yes Chairperson. What I wanted to know from the applicant is whether in Amadiqwe, were there any such political uprisings, that means fights between IFP and the ANC? CHAIRPERSON What bearing it has in relation to the offences for which he is seeking amnesty, I fail to understand, but I will allow the re-examination. MR MOLOHLANYE Please answer the question Mr Cele. MR CELE The relationship between these two organisations in neighbouring areas, was very poor, to such an extent that one group would be driven out of the area. With regards to Amadiqwe, the IFP was driven out and they all left to live at Mzyasafi. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Malan, do you have any questions to put to Mr Cele? MR MALAN Please Chair. I just want to have clarity on this, earlier in your - I am not sure whether it was under cross-examination - you said that you were told that Amos and Nococanya told the people that they could find the hand and arm with you. Is my note correct, the hand or arm, that you had it? In other words the inference that I draw is that you were told that Amos and Nococanya informed them that you killed Martin? Is that correct, were you so informed? CHAIRPERSON It was in cross-examination? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN If Amos was indeed party to accusing you, why would it have been wrong to kill Amos? Shouldn't he then also have been killed? MR CELE I was asked, I was asked when Dudu was killed, did I see it or was it correct for Amos to be killed as well. MR MALAN Yes, I think you said no, it was wrong for Amos to be killed? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN But yet Amos accused you of having killed Martin? Wasn't that your evidence in cross-examination? MR CELE At that time, when we questioned them, we started with Diana and Nococanya and they denied knowledge of these people. When that information came that Amos and Nococanya had allegedly told these people that they could find this with me, it then became very unclear as to what was going on. MR MALAN If I may just put a few questions to summarise for my own understanding, your evidence is that you have no knowledge of Martin or Nococanya having been members of the IFP, you have no such knowledge? MR CELE That is true. MR MALAN As far as you were concerned, they were not of the opposition group? They were not the enemy? MR CELE Whose enemy? MR MALAN The ANC's enemy? MR CELE I did not know anything with regards to Nococanya. MR MALAN Then the second piece of information is that you were told that this group which Dudu brought, Dudu was Martin's sister, and according to you Dudu shouted asking you for Martin's arm, that this group wanted to attack you? Is that correct? MR CELE I did not say that Dudu shouted. MR MALAN Well, sorry, but the group came and the group shouted to you that they wanted the arm. The information was that this group came to revenge Martin's death and accusing you, wanting to attack and kill you, that was your information, is that correct? MR CELE Yes, when they asked who was Thulani and I showed myself, the person who then directed himself to me said he was coming to fetch Martin's hand. MR MALAN Yes. But there was no indication that this was a reprisal from the IFP on ANC, politics at that stage, did not enter the question? It was simply a group led by Martin's sister, brought there by Martin's sister, that you say wanted revenge for Martin's death and accusing you? MR CELE At that time, I regarded it as a political matter because if they had really come with regards to Martin's issue, they would have been at Nococanya's place, but they were instead at a house which I knew to belong to people who were IFP members. MR MALAN These IFP members, was that Amos? You say Amos was an IFP member? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN And he was your grandfather? MR CELE Yes, he was. MR MALAN And he lived in the same area where Nococanya lived? MR CELE Yes, but not the same kraal. MR MALAN Yes. But it was quiet, there was no conflict, so he had no conflict agenda, Amos was not looking for fights with the ANC? MR CELE At that time, before this incident, there was no violence in the area. Although there was such violence in neighbouring areas. MR MALAN But in that area there was no political conflict? MR CELE At the time, no. MR MALAN This group of five, the marshals of which you were elected leader, that group also constituted the Court, the tribunal? You were also the tribunal, is that correct? MR CELE I was not a marshall. MR MALAN But you patrolled, this group of five that you told us about of which you were the leader, you were patrolling the area and you were responsible for the safety of the people and to keep the criminals at bay, you had the "People's Court" up the hills and you were, this Court, this tribunal, you referred to it as a tribunal? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN Was that Court or tribunal Chaired by yourself as the leader of this group? MR CELE No. MR MALAN Who was the Chairperson of this tribunal? MR CELE The Chairperson was elected at that particular time. Anybody who was present, would Chair such a tribunal, but after all the discussions, it was the committee, the structure that made a decision. CHAIRPERSON What you are basically saying is that the tribunal which has been alluded to by my colleague and which you have testified to as having been a "People's Court", would be Chaired by different people on different occasions, there wasn't a standing committee which would be responsible for conducting proceedings? This is how I understood the "People's Court" to be operating myself? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but that you belonged to a structure to which you were a leader, you were a leader, of which you were a leader? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN That is where I am still confused, because I understood you to be taking these people up the hills to the place where you said you usually conducted the "People's Court"? Is that correct? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN Also at this place, you put certain questions to these people? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN Who else put questions to these people? MR CELE There were many people who asked questions, I would just like to explain, on the day of this incident, this was the first occurrence, it was unlike any other meeting we had had before. As they were being asked questions, some people were even impatient with the process of questioning them, because people were not sure whether these were IFP or Senora's who had come to commence their activities again. There were many questions that were put to them. MR MALAN Who decided the punishment? MR CELE It was the structure. MR MALAN That structure, is that structure the structure that you were the leader of? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON May I on a point of clarity, when you say the structure, are you talking about the "People's Court" or are you talking about something else as having been responsible for taking a decision of what kind of punishment to meet out to the people who appeared before you? MR CELE I am referring to the people who made the decision, that is the group who would step aside after all the questions had been asked and they would make a decision on what punishment should be meted out. CHAIRPERSON Would that be the structure of which you were the leader? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN You see, that is really what I understood you to have been saying to us, broadly people were asking questions, but the tribunal, the people making the decision, was the same structure that you were the leader of? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN Your evidence is that for some reason, and I am still not sure why, you believed that this was an IFP group who came with some political motive against the ANC, for some reason you were convinced that this was not really merely a reprisal from Martin's sister and his friends or relatives, based on their suspicion that you killed Martin? MR CELE Yes. MR MALAN Can you tell me why you are satisfied that it was not some kind of mission of Martin's relatives and friends to firstly get the true facts about Martin's death and if getting it, to avenge his death? MR CELE The reason that I was not convinced is that Martin was not born and bred in that area, his only connection to the area was through Nococanya and when we questioned Nococanya and her family, they denied knowledge of this people and we also realised that these people were not even staying with Nococanya, they were staying at another home. Another factor is that Martin had been buried for quite a while, and these people only came at that time. If they had been, indeed been concerned with Martin's death, they could have come earlier than that. MR MALAN Why did they then come? Why did they ask about Martin's arm? MR CELE I do not know. As far as I am concerned, they had just come to launch an attack and they used Martin's death as an excuse, because they had already been caught, we had caught them. MR MALAN Sorry, and the attack, just to get the picture clear, this attack is now mounted by seven people of which one is Dudu, a woman, coming to an area where there is basically no political support to support them in such an attack. Seven people come to attack you within a whole community, or attacking the community, apparently not you? Let me withdraw that question, let me try and ask it differently. Did you believe that they wanted to attack the community or attack you? MR CELE I believed that they were out to attack me. MR MALAN Then, just lastly, why? MR CELE I thought that they had their own personal agenda's. I am certain they also knew that I was an ANC member, who was a leader. MR MALAN But who has never been involved in any violence at that stage? MR CELE There was no violence in my area, only in the neighbouring areas. When people from other areas came maybe to seek assistance from my area, they would approach me. It was obvious that I was the leader. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Adv De Jager, do you have any questions to put to Mr Cele? ADV DE JAGER No questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cele, to your knowledge, to which political organisation did Bonny belong? MR CELE As far as I know, I usually saw him with AmaSenora. CHAIRPERSON What is AmaSenora, did they belong to any publicly known political organisation? MR CELE They were affiliated to the IFP, but AmaSenora were a criminal gang. CHAIRPERSON Now, who in Amos Cele's house, was an IFP member? MR CELE Amos. CHAIRPERSON Was he occupying any particular office? MR CELE I do not know, but I would see him in the company of high ranking Officials in the IFP. CHAIRPERSON When you say high ranking Officials within the IFP, what are you referring to? MR CELE I am referring to people who were leaders in the area, IFP leaders just as I was an ANC leader in the community, that is how I knew them. CHAIRPERSON He was associating with the leadership, the local leadership of the IFP in the area? Is that what you are saying? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who was the Chairperson of the IFP in the area? MR CELE I did not know exactly who held what position, but I knew that they were in leadership positions because sometimes other IFP leaders from surrounding areas would come and they would approach them. CHAIRPERSON Were you aware of Martin's death when it happened? Martin Ngcobo's death? MR CELE No, I only heard about it when I returned from work, that he had been killed. CHAIRPERSON When did you first become aware of his death? MR CELE I first became aware on the day when his body was discovered, that is when I returned from work, on that day. CHAIRPERSON Approximately how many days or weeks before the visit by Dudu Ngcobo and her companions? A week, two weeks? MR CELE It could have been two to three weeks. CHAIRPERSON Were you aware at any given state before the visit by Dudu Ngcobo and her companions of Martin Ngcobo's funeral having taken place? MR CELE I knew that the funeral had taken place. CHAIRPERSON How did you know that? MR CELE The people from Nococanya's home are my relatives. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you. Mr Molohlanye, I've got to make sure that - Mr Molohlanye, emanating from the questions from the bench, do you have any re-examination that you intend doing on your witness? MR MOLOHLANYE No questions Madam Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE CHAIRPERSON That being so, is that the applicant's case? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes Your Worship. CHAIRPERSON Do you intend to call any further witnesses in support of this applicant's application? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes, I would like to call only one person who in connection with the death of Amos Cele. CHAIRPERSON That is an applicant. I am talking about this applicant, in support of Mr Thulani Cele's application, do you intend to call any witnesses to support his application? MR MOLOHLANYE No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cele, you are hereby excused. ADV DE JAGER Can you just tell us, you are applying for amnesty in respect of, is it only the murder of Dudu? MR MOLOHLANYE No, Honourable member, I am applying for amnesty for the public violence. CHAIRPERSON The way I understand the issues that you are applying for are two acts, that is the public violence as well as the killing of Dudu Ngcobo. Those are the only two acts for which Mr Thulani Cele seeks amnesty? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes, those are the two grounds because on other ones, the death of Martin and Amos Cele, he still holds it as I said that he was not involved. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) You are applying in respect of two acts, not grounds. Mr Cele, we have already excused you, you may step down, unless of course there is something that you wish to say which your Counsel has omitted to give an indication to us that you would like to say. MR CELE I just wanted to explain that I seek amnesty for the murder of Dudu as well as public violence. But I would also request the Committee to look into the other matters because I am also serving a sentence with regards to them, although I was not part of them. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cele, prior to the commencement of these proceedings, we held discussions with both our Evidence Leader, Ms Thabethe and your lawyer, Mr Molohlanye because we were perturbed that your amnesty application was only with regard to the two acts that have again been confirmed by your lawyer to be based on. We are assured by Mr Molohlanye that the position has been (indistinct) explained to you, what the effect of the amnesty is and what the requirements thereof are. We were assured further that you understood that if you do not apply for amnesty as you have done because you deny guilt in respect of the killing of both Martin Ngcobo and Mr Amos Cele, that this Committee would then not have any jurisdiction at all to hear any of those acts for which you are not seeking amnesty. We were assured by Mr Molohlanye that this had been explained to you and that you comprehended the situation quite well. We were particularly concerned because we knew that at the time of applying for amnesty, you were not legally represented and we wanted to make sure that this was brought to your knowledge even before we commenced proceedings to hear your application. As you have been undoubtedly informed by Mr Molohlanye, this is not a Court of Appeal, this is a very extraordinary and unique process where we only hear offenders who are admitting to having committed offences for which they seek amnesty and for which they allege that there was political motivation and which of course at the end of the day, we must be satisfied that indeed those offences were politically related. Your request that this Committee should do something in respect of the offences for which you were convicted and sentenced involving the killing of Mr Martin Ngcobo and Amos Cele, you must be aware sir that we are in no position to do anything about that. We had hoped that that position had been made crystal clear by Mr Molohlanye. MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, I don't know what your direction will be to this Committee. We would propose that we proceed to hear evidence of the second applicant in respect of the killing of Amos Cele before you can lead your witnesses in respect of both applicants. I think that will expedite matters better, than if we were to give you an opportunity now to lead the evidence of the objectors in respect of the offences for which Mr Thulani Cele seeks amnesty. Are you in agreement with that procedure? MS THABETHE Yes Madam Chair.