amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-21 DURBAN 1 ROY BONGUMUSA CELE AM4495/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53491&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99062124_dbn_990621db.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Molohlanye, we are in your hands. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson, I would now like to call Roy Cele, the next applicant. Roy Cele seeks amnesty for public violence, the assault on Dudu Ngcobo and the murder of Mzibeni Amos Cele. CHAIRPERSON Mr Roy Cele, are you prepared to take the oath? ROY BONGUMUSA CELE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated, you have been sworn in. Mr Molohlanye, I see that we have again an Exhibit which is the supplementary affidavit of Mr Roy Cele. Do you wish to hand this up as an Exhibit and it will be Exhibit B? MR MOLOHLANYE Correctly so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cele, do you have a copy of your affidavit that has been handed up to us as Exhibit B? Mr Molohlanye? MR MOLOHLANYE No Your Honour, I still have to give him one. We are not short, I am now perplexed by the situation because I tried to make enough copies, but now I don't know what happened to it. I apologise for that waste of time. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) Mr Cele, is that the affidavit that you have attested on the 16th of - when was this attested to, you don't have a date here? MR MOLOHLANYE It was attested to today, I am sorry to have not put the date, today. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) I see here you have it as an affidavit, this is in fact a statement? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes, I would like to apologise on that point, I met the other members of the Committee and then I alluded to them that they have not been commissioned and we will just call them statements, not affidavits as they appear. CHAIRPERSON You should have proceeded I think, to simply scratch out affidavit, just indicate a statement and I hope the record will also indicate in respect of Exhibit A, that Exhibit is not an affidavit, but a statement. Mr Cele, this is the statement that you have signed this morning? MR R.B. CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You are familiar with the contents contained in the statement? MR R.B. CELE Yes, I am. CHAIRPERSON You have read and you understand what is contained therein? MR R.B. CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MALAN Sorry, may I just make sure, having read and understand, do you confirm all the contents of that statement, is the statement correct? MR R.B. CELE Yes, it is true. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR MOLOHLANYE For the record Mr Cele, can you please give us your full names? MR R.B. CELE Roy Bongumusa Cele. MR MOLOHLANYE You were a member of the ANC, weren't you Mr Cele? MR R.B. CELE Yes. MR MOLOHLANYE Can you please briefly give us the history of your area, how was it like? CHAIRPERSON Mr Molohlanye, it would appear that we are dealing with incidents that are quite related to the ones already testified to be Mr Thulani Percival Cele. With regard to the history of Manyaseni, we are now quite familiar with that, he doesn't need to lead that kind of evidence. You may proceed directly to the incident concerned. MR MOLOHLANYE As the Committee wishes. The day of the incident is contained in paragraph 9 of the statement, Exhibit B. Mr Cele, can you tell the Committee what happened on the 28th of December 1989? MR MALAN Aren't you jumping it now? Didn't you say he is also applying for the public violence and for the assault on Dudu Ngcobo which is dealt with in paragraph, at least the preceding paragraphs? I don't think it is necessary for him to lead all the evidence again, if you want to refer him to the first applicant's evidence and ask whether he is in agreement with that, you can then deal with it on that basis. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Honourable Member. Roy, were you present at the meeting where a decision was taken to go and fetch the people at Mr Amos Cele? MR R.B. CELE Yes, I was present at that meeting. MR MOLOHLANYE Is it correct that you went from Mr Muandla's house to Cele's house? MR R.B. CELE That is correct. MR MOLOHLANYE What role did you play when you arrived at Amos Cele's house? MR R.B. CELE When we arrived at Mr Cele, we took everybody who had been present in the house and proceeded to the "People's Court" in Gangala. ADV DE JAGER Did you take the women people too? MR R.B. CELE In fact the women requested ourselves that they should also go, but we had gone there with the intention of removing the people from Umlazi. MR MALAN Do you know why they requested to come along, to be taken along? MR R.B. CELE Although I cannot be certain, I think they wanted to know or find out what was going to happen to these people. MR MALAN Did they agree that these people were to be taken away or did they resist? Did they advise you not to take the people? MR R.B. CELE They tried to resist, but because of a large number of people who were present, they did not succeed. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. We understand that questions were asked from these people at Gangala. Did you ask any questions? MR R.B. CELE Yes, I did ask a question. MR MOLOHLANYE Can you please inform the Committee? MR R.B. CELE I asked them if they were aware of what channels they were supposed to follow as people who had come from one area, entering another area. I discovered that they did not have any information with regards thereto. MR MOLOHLANYE What happened after these people were questioned? MR MALAN Sorry, won't you just follow that up and make it clear to us, what channels are we talking about? MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Honourable Member. To repeat the question, your response was that the people, those from Umlazi, you asked them what channels or how they came to your area and then you discovered that they did not have any channels in the area, is that so? MR MALAN No, the question was did you ask questions, he said yes, you said please inform the Committee and he said I asked them whether they were aware of the channels when entering one area from another and discovered that they did not have any information. Maybe I should follow this up. What channels are you referring to Mr Cele? MR R.B. CELE As they were coming from a different area, Umlazi, they were supposed to communicate with the people who were leaders in the area. MR MALAN Which people are you talking about? MR R.B. CELE I am referring to these people from Umlazi. MR MALAN Who were the leaders that they should communicate with and how should they do it? Tell us about these channels of communication that you talk about. MR R.B. CELE I am trying to explain that as people who had come for a specific reason, they were supposed to contact the leaders in the community. CHAIRPERSON How would they have known what channels to follow, were these channels public knowledge? How did you expect them to know that there were certain channels that had to be followed in your area? MR R.B. CELE If they were ANC people, they would have known because everybody in the ANC knew that if you move from an area to another, that is how you communicate through those channels. CHAIRPERSON If they were there for their own personal problems and not for ANC related activities, would they still have been expected to have known about those channels? Suppose they were not even affiliated to the ANC at all? MR R.B. CELE What problems are you referring to? CHAIRPERSON In this case it was a death related incident, a member of one of the groups had passed away, Mr Martin Ngcobo, did you still expect them to follow certain channels in order to pursue the issue relating to the death of a relative? MR R.B. CELE As people who were searching for body parts, relative's body parts, they were supposed to communicate that with the people in the area so that it will be known that that is what they had come for, they did not come there to attack. ADV DE JAGER But didn't they stand across the previous witness' house and shouted at him that they wanted the parts, the hand or the body parts of Martin? MR R.B. CELE I say this because when we questioned them, that is what they told us that they had come to fetch the body parts. CHAIRPERSON We know that. These questions are emanating from the evidence you have just led that you expected them to follow certain channels. ADV DE JAGER The previous witness was the leader, so the people stood there, outside, calling on him, listen, we have come to fetch, or we want the hand of Martin and they should have asked it from him, because he is the leader in that area. You said he should communicate with the leadership, the channels? MR R.B. CELE That act of shouting was not really communicating with him, because they could have done it properly. What they did, they insulted him, they also shouted. What they should have done was to come to his home, approach him in a proper manner and discussed the matter with him. That was not how they were supposed to do it. ADV DE JAGER But weren't they prevented by the community from coming to his home, they were on their way to his home and then they were prevented from coming to him? MR R.B. CELE It was their attitude, the utterances that they had made, they had specifically said that they had come to fetch these from Thulani. If they had come in a proper way and said that they wanted to communicate with Thulani, they would have done so, but the community's reaction was because of their attitude. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Is it your evidence therefore, I know we actually are taking Mr Molohlanye's action here, he should be presenting his evidence in chief, but are you suggesting that because they did not follow your expected line of communication, the community became angry and reacted in the manner they did, simply because they did not follow a particular procedure that you expected them to have followed? MR R.B. CELE No, that was not the reason why the community became annoyed. I was just explaining this with regards to the question that I asked them. I asked them if they had tried to communicate with the community through the correct channels and they said no, they had not. CHAIRPERSON Mr Molohlanye, the ball is in your court, sir. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. You asked the questions and other members of your community asked these people. What happened after that questioning? MR R.B. CELE We discovered that their intention of being in the area was to attack and then a decision was taken that they should be lashed. MR MOLOHLANYE Who took the decision, were you part of the decision makers? MR R.B. CELE Yes, I was present. The entire community was present. The structure stepped aside and they decided on how many lashes should be administered. MR MOLOHLANYE Did you administer any lashes after the structure had met and come up with the sentence? MR R.B. CELE Yes, I did. MR MOLOHLANYE After punishing these people, what happened? MR R.B. CELE After they had been lashed, they were informed that they should leave the area. They then requested to go via Mr Amos Cele's home to collect their belongings. After they had left to go to Mr Cele's house, comrades from Amadiqwe arrived in a kombi. They found that at that spot where the tribunal had been held, some people had left the spot, but there were some still remaining. MR MOLOHLANYE Can I interrupt, according to the last witness, these people were sjamboked and thereafter Dudu was fetched. Do you have any knowledge of that or was she part of the people, the group when they were punished? MR R.B. CELE Dudu was not present when the first group was fetched. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose Mr Molohlanye? Won't you canvass exactly, he is applying for amnesty for public violence, what is it that he personally did? You seem to be moving away now from that act and we are getting on to another act without having canvassed the fact fully in respect of that. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. Dudu was fetched, did you administer any punishment on Dudu? CHAIRPERSON Before Dudu was fetched, what did he do? What did he do to the people that were questioned prior to Dudu being fetched? MR MOLOHLANYE I think I have already asked him the question and then he mentioned, he made it clear that he also administered the slashing and the lashing, the beating of the people. CHAIRPERSON Yes, to who, how many? We need details in respect there of. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. You are saying you were also part of the people who administered the lashing on the group, how many people did you assault yourself? MR R.B. CELE I do not remember exactly, I just remember Bonny as well as another dark guy from Umlazi, who had been wearing jeans. MR MOLOHLANYE You don't remember how many strokes you gave to Bonny or the other guy? MR R.B. CELE No, I cannot remember because a lot of people partook in the lashing of those people. There were about 600 people present. You would give them a lash and give the sjambok to another person until they had received their number that had been decided upon. CHAIRPERSON How long did this lashing last in terms of seconds or minutes, can you estimate? MR R.B. CELE I cannot recall how long it took. I cannot recall. CHAIRPERSON How many people were lashed by this large group of 600 people? MR R.B. CELE Although I cannot remember correctly, but I think there were seven males and another two females, Zodwa and Nana. CHAIRPERSON Why did you administer any lashes to Zodwa and Nana? MR R.B. CELE I did not take part in lashing them. CHAIRPERSON You were part of a group were you not? MR R.B. CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And a decision had been taken to administer lashes on all those people who were at the hill, is it not so? MR R.B. CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now on what basis did you decide to administer lashes on the two women who had voluntarily accompanied the other persons, the seven males you have alluded to? MR R.B. CELE The reason why they were lashed was their behaviour , they showed disrespect for the meeting. They were disrespectful, disturbing the proceedings as well as trying to defend their brother and these other people. CHAIRPERSON Was that the only reason a decision was taken to administer lashes as far as they are concerned? MR R.B. CELE Yes, indeed, that was the reason. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. After Dudu was fetched, did you administer any lashes on her? MR R.B. CELE No, I did not. MR MOLOHLANYE So, after Dudu was punished, as you said earlier, a kombi from Amadiqwe arrived. MR MALAN Sorry, may we just get back to the Dudu - what was your involvement, why do you apply for the amnesty for the assault on Dudu, what was your role, only participating in the decision? I don't think you have led that evidence? MR MOLOHLANYE Honourable Member, I think we are applying for that participation because he was acting in concert, he was part of the decision making to the beating and assaulting of Dudu. MR MALAN Exactly, but what was his role? Can you canvass his role in that act, acting in concert to the full please. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We must highlight that we haven't as yet heard any facts with regard to the decision, that he was party to the decision that said Dudu must be assaulted. I don't have any such evidence before me. It is actually the other way, the decision was to kill her, so you haven't led evidence with regard to him having participated in any decision that said Dudu must be assaulted, even if he didn't physically participate in the assault itself. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. Can you please, Mr Cele, Roy, just tell the Committee what made the people or part of the group to go and fetch Dudu? CHAIRPERSON Was there a decision taken in respect of Dudu after you had administered lashes on the members which were at the hills? MR R.B. CELE Yes, a decision was taken to fetch her. CHAIRPERSON And what were you to do after fetching her? MR R.B. CELE Some questions were to be put to her as she allegedly was the person who was going to identify or point out the person who had Martin's body parts. CHAIRPERSON Was that the only decision that was taken in respect of Dudu, that you had to go down, collect her with a view to questioning her? MR R.B. CELE Yes, as well as for the reason that she was also from that area, Umlazi, having come with these people who were in the area to attack. CHAIRPERSON Did you take any decision at that stage that she had to be assaulted in the same manner, or in a different manner as the other people had been assaulted by administration of some strokes as people like Zodwa and Nana? MR R.B. CELE A decision was taken that she should be given 200 lashes. CHAIRPERSON When was that decision taken, by whom? MR R.B. CELE It was taken after she had been fetched from the house. CHAIRPERSON Where were you at that stage, were you in the group that took a decision to administer 200 lashes on her? MR R.B. CELE I was present at the "People's Court". CHAIRPERSON Was this decision taken after she had been fetched from her hiding place as Amos Cele's house? MR R.B. CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And taken up to the hills where you usually held your "Courts", to a place that has been referred to as the "People's Court"? MR R.B. CELE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what role did you have in her assault? MR R.B. CELE I was one of the people who consented that she should be given those 200 lashes because of her role. CHAIRPERSON Did you take part physically in the administration of those lashes on her? MR R.B. CELE No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Why did you not participate? MR R.B. CELE There were too many people who were standing in the queue to administer lashes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. So by the time 200 lashes had been administered on her, you had not had your chance? MR R.B. CELE As I mentioned before, there were about 600 people there, I was too far away. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, Mr Molohlanye? MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. Mr Cele, what happened after Dudu was assaulted? Can you please in detail tell the Committee? MR R.B. CELE They were ordered to go fetch their belongings and leave the area. MR MALAN No the question is not, the question is what happened after Dudu had been assaulted. In terms of your affidavit, the other group, the males plus the two females, Nana and Zodwa, they were earlier sjamboked and sent away, then only was the decision taken to go and fetch Dudu. You sent for her, she was found under the bed, she was brought to the Court and then there was a decision to give her 200 lashes, there was this long queue that you talked about and then Dudu was sjamboked. The question is what happened then, by then the other group had long left, they were long ordered to leave the area. MR R.B. CELE Dudu was told exactly the same thing that had been told to the people, that she should leave the area. MR MALAN Right, but this was now only Dudu that was told, and this was much later? MR R.B. CELE Although I cannot remember correctly, but I think yes, she was alone at the time. MR MALAN Sorry for interrupting you, but this really becomes important to my understanding of the situation. Maybe - let me allow you to pursue first this what happened after Dudu's sjamboking. MR MOLOHLANYE Mr Cele, you are saying that Dudu was told to leave the area. What happened in that process while she was leaving? MR R.B. CELE As she was leaving, on her way to Mr Cele's house, I think she was just about half way through there, a kombi approached and the people who were in the kombi enquired about what was happening with regards to the people who had come to attack the area. They were informed that they had been punished and instructed to leave the area, but were still around, they hadn't left the area already. MR MALAN I missed that last part of the translation. They were told what, this is to the Interpreter? They were told that the people had left the area already or not left? INTERPRETER Not left the area already. They were informed that the people had been punished and ordered to leave the area, but that they had not as yet left. MR MOLOHLANYE Please proceed Mr Cele. MR R.B. CELE The comrades from Amadiqwe disapproved of that punishment, that they should just be let loose. They regarded them as a serious threat, they said that they could return later to attack. MR MALAN May I just take you back to why were the comrades told that the group that were originally sjamboked, had not yet left? Why did you tell them that they had not yet left, how did you know that? MR R.B. CELE From the spot where we were standing, it is possible to see a person leaving the area, you are able to see the bus stop, so you would have been able to see a person boarding a bus. MR MALAN You were at the trial and you recall, and I am simply referring to the judgement, that Ernest said that he had left boarding the bus, he was not chased away, he left on the bus? INTERPRETER Please repeat that. MR MALAN In your trial, Ernest gave evidence that he boarded a bus and left on the bus after having been ordered to leave the area? MR R.B. CELE What I can explain or comment on that is that the evidence that was presented in court, was incorrect. They were just trying to make sure that we received a harsh sentence, but the evidence was not true. CHAIRPERSON But surely Mr Cele, you are a very large group of 600 persons, you wouldn't be in a position to see who is coming and who is going out in the Cele family? It is just probable that Ernest might have been the only person to have boarded the bus whilst the others were still preparing their way to leave and that you did not see him leaving? It is possible that some of these events might have escaped you because I am sure much was happening around you for you to have been able to watch the movement of each and every person that you had punished as to whether he had left the Cele home or not at the time when the kombi arrived? MR R.B. CELE From the spot where we were standing, it was possible to see a person going to the bus stop, boarding a bus. Before they left that house, the comrades of Amadiqwe arrived and told us that we have made a mistake to let them go and then from there, a group of people went to that house and that is when these people fled. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. What happened after this Amadiqwe comrades have mentioned that they did not agree with your decision? MR R.B. CELE A decision was taken that this people should be killed. That was when the last group of people rushed to Amos Cele's house and these people then fled. MR MOLOHLANYE Sorry to interrupt, you said a decision was taken to kill them. Where you part of that decision? MR R.B. CELE Yes, I was part. I was present. CHAIRPERSON By whom in particular was that decision taken? MR R.B. CELE I can say that every member of the structure consented to the killing of those people. CHAIRPERSON By every member, who are you referring to, can you give us the names? MR R.B. CELE I am referring to myself, Thulani Cele, Bongani Khumalo, Thami Mthembu, Nhlanhleni Makhaya. CHAIRPERSON Nhlanhla Makhaya? MR R.B. CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was Nhlanhla Makhaya in your structure, I thought he was not in your structure, from the evidence led by Mr Thulani Cele, I thought Nhlanhla Makhaya was in fact the leader of the ANC at Gangala? MR R.B. CELE Yes, he was. I am referring to that structure, a special structure that had been set up specifically for this reason. CHAIRPERSON Which structure are you referring to? What ad hoc structure are you referring to, was there another structure established other than the structure that we know to have existed at Manyaseni? MR R.B. CELE I am referring to the same structure that Mr Thulani Cele spoke about. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but the evidence, if I recall the evidence of Thulani Cele, Nhlanhla was the leader of the ANC at Gangala and did not belong to your structure? MR R.B. CELE Nhlanhla was part of the structure because we co-operated, we had actually amalgamated because criminal activities were carried out at both Gangala as well as our areas. CHAIRPERSON When did your structure and his, amalgamate? MR R.B. CELE It happened long before this incident. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I want to know when, a month, a week, a day before this incident? MR R.B. CELE It was set up before the incident. CHAIRPERSON Was it immediately before in terms of weeks, in terms of months, we need an approximation? MR R.B. CELE If I am not mistaken, it could have been two months, but I am not certain. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. The structure took a decision to kill these people of which you were part and what happened after the decision? MR R.B. CELE This large group of people then rushed to that house to kill the people. When they saw this, they fled the house and dispersed, running in different directions. CHAIRPERSON There is one aspect that is a little troubling that you may be able to clear without any further delay. In your statement, you have referred to a decision having been taken and that decision was to the effect that Amos Cele's house should be attacked and your statement does not allude to a decision having been taken to kill the people that you had administered lashes upon. Can you explain why that important aspect of your evidence was left out in your statement and only this decision was alluded to in your statement? I draw your attention to paragraph 8 of your own statement. You say "... it was then decided that Amos Cele's house should be attacked." You did not state that the decision taken was to kill the persons concerned, but you only referred to the attack on the house of Amos Cele. MR R.B. CELE As I have explained, the decision to kill those people came later and it had not been decided in that meeting. It came from this other people. It was ... CHAIRPERSON May I interrupt you, I am sorry to do that because I don't think we are on the same page, I understand that. What I want to know is why in your statement you did not refer to that decision, you only referred to a decision having been taken with regard to attacking Amos Cele's house. Your statement did not refer to the decision to kill the persons concerned. MR R.B. CELE There might have been a mistake that was committed, this incident took place a long time ago. CHAIRPERSON When was the statement made, Mr Cele, was this statement not made today? MR R.B. CELE No, I did not make it today. CHAIRPERSON When was the statement made? MR R.B. CELE I think it was last week. CHAIRPERSON And you were not recollecting the events better last week? Yes? MR R.B. CELE I did explain that what I am explaining here, is what I remember. As I am explaining, that decision was taken that they should be killed because they posed a threat. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that, I just wanted to know why you omitted to include that decision in this statement, which would be a far much more important decision to include in the statement? MR R.B. CELE I thought it had been included that we scattered, chasing after this people. CHAIRPERSON That has been included, but what has not been included is the fact that you took a decision to kill the people concerned, that is not included in your statement and that is an important decision to have been omitted. Instead you only included a decision which was to attack Mr Amos Cele's house, you see there is a difference between a decision to attack a house and a decision to kill people, if you read the statement. MR R.B. CELE We were going to attack people who were in Amos Cele's house. CHAIRPERSON Did that include Mr Cele himself? MR R.B. CELE No, Mr Cele was not present. CHAIRPERSON When you took the decision to kill whoever would be in Mr Cele's house, did you include Mr Cele in your decision? MR R.B. CELE We intended to kill the people from Umlazi as well as Bonny Cele. CHAIRPERSON Was it your intention also to include Amos Cele as the owner of the kraal where these people had been harboured? MR R.B. CELE He would have not suffered because of that action of harbouring these dangerous people. CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting that your decision extended also to killing Mr Amos Cele, yes or no? MR R.B. CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. So these people, group of people from Mr Cele's house, ran away in different directions, did you try to pursue any of them or did you according to the earlier evidence, some of you were left behind to burn the house. Were you part of those who were at the house or did you pursue any of the people who were running out of the house? MR R.B. CELE I chased after the people who had been fleeing because they ran in different directions, so I was part of that group who chased after this people. MR MOLOHLANYE Who did you chase? MR R.B. CELE I and my group chased after Bonny Cele. MR MOLOHLANYE Did you find him or did you catch up with him? MR R.B. CELE No, he outran us. MR MOLOHLANYE So what did you do after that? MR R.B. CELE We then returned back. MR MOLOHLANYE Proceed. MR R.B. CELE We then came upon Dudu, she was laying at the bus stop, Manyaseni bus stop, she was already dead. We were then informed that one group, some people from our group, had been responsible for killing her, that those had been the people who had been chasing after her. MR MOLOHLANYE Are you telling this Committee that you were not part of the people who physically assaulted Dudu and ... CHAIRPERSON No, that is not his evidence Mr Molohlanye. He definitely participated in assaulting Dudu, that is his evidence. What he is saying is that he was not present, he didn't witness anything that led to Dudu being killed. By the time he came back, he discovered that the other group had killed Dudu. At least that is what he was told when he came back. When he came back and found her laying at Manyaseni bus stop. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. Then what happened after you found Dudu laying at the bus stop, Mr Cele? MR R.B. CELE We then dispersed, went to our respective homes. MR MOLOHLANYE Can you please tell us what happened on the 28th of December, the same year, that is 1989? MR MALAN Just before you move on to the next incident. You, the group, after you went back to Amos Cele's house, can you just say to us, did you stop over there when you got to the house? MR R.B. CELE No. MR MALAN: Can I take you to your paragraph 8 on the statement that you made. I take you to this part which begins, it is the fourth line from the end of paragraph 8 - "... it was then decided that Amos Cele's house should be attacked." Can you see that? MR R.B. CELE Yes. MR MALAN: "... all the people in the house ran away into different directions and the house was burnt." Is that correct? MR R.B. CELE Yes, the house was burnt. MR MALAN: "... so we were divided into groups, trying to pursue these people." Is that correct? MR R.B. CELE Yes, we did divide ourselves into different groups. MR MALAN Okay, so the house was burnt? MR R.B. CELE The house was already burning at the time. MR MALAN Yes, that is right, the house was burning, then you divided into different groups, you decided you would go looking for the people? MR R.B. CELE I would explain it this way. When we arrived to Mr Cele's home, they came out of the house, fleeing. Some people from our group, remained and burnt the house whilst others chased after the people who had been running away. MR MALAN Okay, did you remain behind or did you chase at that stage? MR R.B. CELE I was amongst the people who had been chasing the group. MR MALAN Was the house already burning then when you made chase? MR R.B. CELE Yes, the house was burning at the time. MR MALAN So clearly you stopped at the house and the house was set alight, you were there when the house was set alight? MR R.B. CELE There was no time to stop. Everything happened quickly, there would have been no time to stop. When we reached the yard, others started burning the house, others chasing after these people. MR MALAN Yes, but please Mr Cele, I am asking you about your movements, did you stop at the house or did you run passed the house? MR R.B. CELE I ran passed the house. MR MALAN So you weren't divided into groups, you just ran, you followed somebody that was running away, nobody divided you into a group? MR R.B. CELE No, we were not divided into groups, but people just ran after those individuals, there was no person who was dividing us into groups. MR MALAN Yes, and if I hear you correctly, you were pursuing Bonny? MR R.B. CELE Yes. MR MALAN Did you see him? MR R.B. CELE Yes, I did. I knew what clothing he had on. MR MALAN And he outran you? MR R.B. CELE Yes. MR MALAN Was anybody else with you pursuing him, or were you on your own? MR R.B. CELE There were many people. MR MALAN And he outran all of you? MR R.B. CELE Yes, he did. MR MALAN Okay. Then you were pursuing Bonny and Thulani gave us evidence that he was pursuing Dudu. MR R.B. CELE He must have been amongst that group who were chasing after Dudu. MR MALAN Yes, now I want to know who pursued the other members, did you see any of the other members of this group that were sjamboked, that you ordered out of the area? MR R.B. CELE They ran in different directions, I did not see what was going on with regards to the others. I was just chasing after this person. MR MALAN You saw a lot of people running in different directions, my question is did you see any of those specific members? Those individuals that you had just ordered out of the area? I am telling you why I am asking this, I find it very difficult to understand that these seven individuals plus two women, are being sjamboked, they are being ordered out of the area, then they leave, they ask for permission to just pick up their belongings at Amos Cele's house, which they are granted, from where they are to leave the area. Nobody escorts them, they just leave. At that stage, a decision is taken to fetch Dudu, people go down to Dudu's place, back up the hill, there is again a tribunal, a decision that she be lashed 200 cuts, there is a long queue, then Dudu goes back and she is ordered out of the area, then the kombi arrives. Now really some time must have lapsed by now and you are telling me that all the people are still in Amos Cele's house? I find it very difficult to understand, especially also because those pursued were only Dudu and Bonny, that we have direct evidence of, people involved in the pursuit. Also in terms of the criminal trial, we have the evidence on record of Ernest that he had earlier left by bus, having been ordered out of the area. I am asking you again, did you see Ernest running from Amos Cele's house with Dudu and Bonny? MR R.B. CELE Yes, I did see him. MR MALAN Who else did you see, did you see all of them running out of the house? MR R.B. CELE There were many of them who came out of the house and they scattered in different directions. They had not as yet gone to board the bus, I am not certain whether they had been waiting for Dudu or not and as I explained before, it was just after Dudu had been sjamboked that these comrades arrived from Amadiqwe. MR MALAN Okay, I don't think I am going to get more clarity, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Mr Molohlanye. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. Mr Cele, as I did earlier, can you please tell this Committee what happened on the 28th of December 1989? MR R.B. CELE On the 28th of December, because there had been survivals of the incident of the 25th, no one felt safe. We did not sleep at our homes. My family had left, I was the only person remaining. On that evening, it was already dark, I heard people approaching my home. I assumed that they must be comrades because we were at that time patrolling the area because of the situation. Before I could communicate or contact these people, I heard gunshots. I was standing, leaning against a big tree. When I heard these gunshots I returned fire, because I had a firearm in my possession. Immediately thereafter comrades from the area came, wanting to know what was going on. When they enquired I informed them that there were people who had just fired shots at me and they were chased. As explained before, it was dark, we chased after these people and managed to get hold of just one of them. Myself and Bongani then shot this person and thereafter we dispersed. On the following day, it was discovered that Amos Cele had been amongst that group of people. In fact it was Amos Cele who had been shot. MR MOLOHLANYE After that incident, what happened? Sorry to interrupt, you mentioned that you pursued these people and one of them tried to hide himself. What did you do to this person, you said we shot him. Did you take any part in the actual shooting of the person? MR R.B. CELE Yes, I did shoot at that person. CHAIRPERSON Yes. It was a singular not a plural, that he shot at the person? MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Chairperson. Can you please tell us what happened after that incident? MR R.B. CELE After the incident on the 28th? MR MOLOHLANYE Yes? MR R.B. CELE After that person had been shot, the Police had been looking for me and I was arrested in January, I think it was on the 16th of January. MR MOLOHLANYE Thank you Mr Cele, I have no further questions as far as your statement. CHAIRPERSON You must thank us, not thank your witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE ADV DE JAGER Just enquire, Mr Amos Cele, how old was he? MR R.B. CELE I cannot be certain. ADV DE JAGER Is he a family of yours? MR R.B. CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Your grandfather? MR R.B. CELE My father. ADV DE JAGER Your father? MR R.B. CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER And you have no idea how old he was, was he a man in the 70's already or what age roundabout? MR R.B. CELE He might have been around 65 or 50 something, I am not sure. ADV DE JAGER So you in fact killed your own father? MR R.B. CELE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Did you realise it at any time before the next day, while chasing the people, did you realise that you were chasing your father? MR R.B. CELE No, it was too dark, because it was in the evening. We were just chasing the people who were attacking me at home, therefore I didn't see as to who they were. ADV DE JAGER Those people attacking you at your home, you didn't know who it was, whether it was criminals or whether they were politically related? MR R.B. CELE I knew that there were political violence or conflict in the nearby areas, therefore we stayed knowing very well that we were going to be attacked any time, we just didn't know when. Therefore we stayed, knowing very well or armed that in case it happened that we are being attacked, we defend ourselves. ADV DE JAGER The first gunshots, you thought it was in fact comrades shooting? You didn't expect it would be IFP people shooting at you? You gave evidence and said you thought it was the comrades shooting? MR R.B. CELE No, I didn't say so. I wouldn't think that they were comrades shooting at me because comrades knew that they were not supposed to shoot at me. ADV DE JAGER Yes, I don't say shooting at you, but when you heard the shots, your evidence was that you thought it may be comrades shooting, unless I have it completely wrong? MR R.B. CELE No, I didn't say so. I didn't say that I thought that it was comrades shooting. I said I thought they were comrades and I started speaking to them, that is when they started shooting. ADV DE JAGER I see. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, I note that the time is five o'clock and I want to assume that you have a few questions to put to Mr Roy Cele, which will be longer than five minutes. However, if your questions are going to be shorter than that, I will suggest that you proceed to put whatever questions you have for Mr Cele, if you contemplate your questions being longer than five minutes, I would direct that we adjourn today's proceedings to enable Mr Cele to retire and to be taken into Correctional Services protective custody. I have actually ran foul of not observing and respecting the difficulties under which Correctional Services are working, by keeping these hearings until too late. I am mindful of the fact that they need to go back for various and other logistical reasons. Do you think you will be longer than five minutes? MS THABETHE I will Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON In that case, we will adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. MS THABETHE As the Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON Will that be convenient, I am now directing this at members of Correctional Services, will nine o'clock be a convenient time for you to be here? We would expect you to be here before nine o'clock, thank you. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. MR MOLOHLANYE As the Committee pleases. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS