amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-23 DURBAN 3 PHAZIMANI NCISHANE AM5638/97 MURDER OF AMOS CELE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53495&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99062124_dbn_990623db.htm CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, what is the position now? Which application do we proceed to hear? MS THABETHE Madame Chair, we're going to proceed to hear the application of Themba Mshini Ngcobo and Phazimani Ncishane. CHAIRPERSON Is the legal representative of Mr Ncishane here? MS THABETHE Yes Madame Chair, she is. Sorry Madame Chair, can I say something? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE With regard to the previous matter, it was indicated to me that the victim's next-of-kin for Mr Cele are here so I would like you to recommend them for R & R if you do grant or refuse amnesty. CHAIRPERSON As you are aware, Ms Thabethe, whenever we make a decision we are required in terms of the Act, the Promotion of National Unity Act 34 of 1995 as amended to give an opinion with regard to whether we think they should be victims in terms of Section 26 and if we are of that opinion, we are required in terms of the Act to make a recommendation that they be referred to the Committee on reparation and rehabilitation in terms of Section 26 for determination as victims and that is what we'll do when we do this decision. MS THABETHE Thank you Madame Chair. CHAIRPERSON I know that Ms Loonat is still comfortably seated downstairs. We would like you to come up. Will you be comfortable sitting next to Ms Thabethe or would you like to sit next to your colleague, Mr Molohlanye? Yes, will we make an arrangement for one extra seat to be brought next to Ms Thabethe? Unfortunately we only have two tables so maybe you should share Ms Thabethe's table rather than Mr Molohlanye because he will also be sitting with his client. I know that we are not logistically ready for this matter, we need to have an extra set of microphones for Ms Loonat and her client. I will therefore adjourn these proceedings for two minutes just to allow the technicians to arrange. Will two minutes be okay, Peter? Peter, will two minutes be sufficient? Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) to hear the application of Mr Themba Mshini Ngcobo, application number 7803/97 and Phazimani Joe Ncishane, application number 5638/97. Will the legal representatives appearing on behalf of the two applicants kindly state their names for the record? MS LOONAT Madame Chair, my name is Serina Loonat and I'm appearing on behalf of Mr Phazimani Joe Ncishane. Thank you. MR MOLOHLANYE Madame Chair, I am Konki Molohlanye and I'm appearing on behalf of Themba Mshini Ngcobo. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. For the evidence leader, Ms Thabethe. Ms Loonat? MS LOONAT Madame Chair, I don't think mine is functioning can I just swop with somebody please? There's no sound at all, there's just a hissing sound. I beg your pardon, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Loonat, are you in a position to commence? MS LOONAT Yes Madame Chair, thank you. CHAIRPERSON You may do so. MS LOONAT Madame Chair could I call my client to sit beside me please? Would that be possible? CHAIRPERSON That is appropriate. Mr Ncishane you can sit next to your attorney. Mr Ngcobo, you can also be seated next to your attorney. PHAZIMANI JOE NCISHANE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT Madame Chair, may I commence? CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Ms Loonat. MS LOONAT My learned colleagues, this morning I am appearing on behalf of Mr Ncishane who is applying for amnesty for the murder of one Samson Mpumelelo Phewa and Amos Cele on the 20th July 1991. At this point I would also like to apply for amnesty for robbery which was committed at the same time as part of the Act. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON And this robbery arises out of the same incident? MS LOONAT Yes Madame Chair, it arose at the same time. CHAIRPERSON Your application is granted. MS LOONAT Thank you Madame Chair. Further, could I just at this point bring to the attention of the Committee Members that there are some inconsistencies in this and the reason for that is my client is totally illiterate and he had to rely on his prisoner friends to write for him so it's not from want of not telling the truth but it's just come across the wrong way. One particular one is on page 26, for example, of the bundle. Number 11(a) where he says "We were not ordered by anyone in this act of attacking each other." That is incorrect, there was actually an instruction. We shall come to that in the course of the evidence. Thank you. Mr Ncishane, please tell the Honourable Members of this Committee how old you are now? MR NCISHANE I'm 40 years. MS LOONAT Are you married? MR NCISHANE Yes I'm married. MR MALAN Sorry, if 40 years is correct then the I.D. number is wrong. MS LOONAT He is 48 Mr Malan. Are you married? MR NCISHANE Yes I am. MS LOONAT Do you have any children? MR NCISHANE Yes. MS LOONAT Please tell us what happened to your wife and children? MR NCISHANE When I was arrested everything was destroyed. My wife informed me that she ...(intervention) MS LOONAT Sorry, I can't hear anything. CHAIRPERSON Peter, it would appear that Ms Loonat is experiencing some technical problems with her headphones. MS LOONAT Can the interpreter say something? INTERPRETER Which language, English? MS LOONAT English, yes. INTERPRETER Can you hear me? CHAIRPERSON Yes we can hear her quite well, the translators can be heard. MS LOONAT I apologise Madame Chair. Mr Ncishane, please tell me what happened to your wife and children? INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR NCISHANE My wife informed me that she had started living with another man since I've been arrested. MS LOONAT So in fact they have deserted you? MR NCISHANE Yes. MS LOONAT Do you have a fixed address Mr Ncishane? MR NCISHANE No I resided in an informal settlement. MS LOONAT Which party do you associate yourself with? MR NCISHANE The ANC. MS LOONAT Do you have proof of membership? MR NCISHANE I did have a membership card but my house was burnt down and so was the card. MS LOONAT What was your status in the hierarchy of the ANC party? MR NCISHANE I was a marshall. MS LOONAT What is a marshall, Mr Ncishane? MR NCISHANE A marshall would be responsible for checking the area and finding out what the situation looks like in the area. Thereafter we go back and report back to the other comrades. MS LOONAT How often did you meet with your ANC members in order to do this marshalling? MR NCISHANE We met many times. MS LOONAT Only a weekly basis, daily basis? ADV DE JAGER I don't think it's disputed that he is a member and I don't know whether it's even disputed that he acted as a member of the ANC in this ongoing battle so as far as I could see we've got this affidavit which you've presented, perhaps you should hand it in as an Exhibit now and then continue to extract facts of the incident? MS LOONAT Thank you Mr de Jager. Is everybody in receipt of the supplementary affidavit which I would refer to? MR MALAN It has been given to us, shall we refer to it as Exhibit A? MS LOONAT Thank you. On the 20th July 1991 you were together with other ANC members. You participated in a vicious crime that resulted in the death of two people. Do you know these two people? MR NCISHANE I knew of them. MS LOONAT Who instructed you to commit this killing? MR NCISHANE It was our commander, Mr Gumede. MS LOONAT He is also the co-accused? Please tell the Committee Members who these people are, the two men that you killed, what do you know about them? MR NCISHANE It Mavundla and somebody whose name I've forgotten. MS LOONAT And did they belong to any political party or were they personal friends of yours or acquaintances? MR NCISHANE They were IFP members. MS LOONAT Please tell the Members of the Committee why you committed this heinous crime? CHAIRPERSON Hasn't he done that, isn't his evidence that he was instructed by his commander? Is there anything else that you want him to lead before us? Before you answer that Mr Ncishane? MS LOONAT No Madame Chair thank you. When you committed these offences, were you in possession of a firearm? I know I say this in my supplementary affidavit, should I not refer to it Madame Chair? Okay. Please tell the Committee Members if you own a firearm? MR NCISHANE Yes I did have a firearm but I did not carry it on that particular day. I had a home made firearm. MS LOONAT A home made firearm is an unlicensed firearm, do you still - you're not in possession of it any more and you weren't - sorry, I'll put that question again. On the day of the attack, did you take your firearm with you? MR NCISHANE No, I only carried a stick. MS LOONAT So how are you responsible for the death of the two men concerned? MR NCISHANE I assaulted one of them. I ran away with regards to the other one. CHAIRPERSON Which one? Did you assault Mavundla or the other person's whose identity is unknown to you? MR NCISHANE Mavundla? CHAIRPERSON Yes, how did you assault him? MR NCISHANE I assaulted him with my stick. MS LOONAT Why did you assault him with your stick? What was the purpose? MR NCISHANE They had shot at him and he would not fall down. MS LOONAT Who is they that had shot at him? MR NCISHANE My co-accused seated across me, Themba Ngcobo as well as My Boy Mavuso. MS LOONAT So he did not fall down so you hit with your knobkierie. Please carry on? CHAIRPERSON Sorry Ms Loonat. How many times did they shoot him? MR NCISHANE I heard two shots and then I heard another shot, a third shot. CHAIRPERSON Who fired the first shots? MR NCISHANE It was My Boy but I did not see where he hit him. MS LOONAT What time of the day was this? MR NCISHANE It was about 8 in the morning. ADV DE JAGER And you believed that this man was protected by muti that's why you hit him with a knobkierie? MR NCISHANE Yes that is correct. MS LOONAT What did you do after that? MR NCISHANE Thereafter one of us said the soldiers were coming and then we fled the area, fled the spot. MS LOONAT At this point two men had been shot, is that correct? MR NCISHANE Yes, I do not know the other man's name. MS LOONAT Do you know if they were dead before you left the scene? MR NCISHANE I could not see. MS LOONAT You said that your instructions were to kill the two gentlemen. How could assaulting him with a knobkierie achieve that? CHAIRPERSON I didn't get your question, would you please repeat? MS LOONAT Madame Chair, I was asking my client that his instructions from his commander was to kill the two gentlemen concerned, both IFP members, however my client assaulted him with a knobkierie. I wanted to know how did he think he was going to achieve what he set out to do with just a ...(indistinct) in his hand. MR NCISHANE That was a weapon that I knew how to use and that is what I carried. I was not familiar with a firearm, that is why I decided to carry that stick on that day. ADV DE JAGER And that was a deadly weapon, it was a heavy weapon that could kill people, isn't that so? MR NCISHANE It was a knobkierie. ADV DE JAGER Yes and you wanted to kill him because you've been instructed to kill him? MR NCISHANE If we had not been told that the police were coming we would have killed him. ADV DE JAGER And you considered them to be your political enemy? MR NCISHANE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. MS LOONAT Could you not have gone to the police to sort out your problems? MR NCISHANE We could not go to the police because the police in that area collaborated with IFP. MS LOONAT What proof have you of that? MR NCISHANE I am telling the truth, that was the case, they were ZP, kwaZulu Police. CHAIRPERSON That is the perception that you held in your area as ANC members, is it not? MR NCISHANE Yes we used to see them. CHAIRPERSON Yes but that is what you believed as ANC members, you don't need to have proof to that effect, it was perceived that the police were collaborating with the IFP in certain quarters of kwaZulu Natal? MR NCISHANE Yes that is correct. MR MALAN Sorry Ms Loonat, just for my clarification, why should he have gone to the police? What's the purpose of the question? MS LOONAT It appears that they took the law into their own hands and I was trying to find out if there was perhaps another way that they could have eradicated these faction fightings and asking the police for assistance. CHAIRPERSON It wasn't faction fighting was it, Ms Loonat? These were political conflicts. MS LOONAT I beg your pardon, the political attacks. CHAIRPERSON Chain of attacks and counter-attacks by and between the two political organisations or members of the two political organisations? MS LOONAT That is correct, Madame Chair, I beg your pardon. MR MALAN Was any evidence introduced that I missed that he had knowledge of any crimes committed by any of these two members, these two persons killed, the two victims, for which purpose he was suspected to go to the police? CHAIRPERSON In short, we don't think the questions you are leading are relevant because you must always bear in mind what is already before us. What is before us is that here is a person who is acting on instructions of a commander, to go and kill people that he has been told are his political opponents? MS LOONAT I beg your pardon. Mr Ncishane, when you sat with Mr Ngcobo, having these meetings as an ANC supporter, what was actually discussed, what was actually happening to you at the time, what were your sufferings or what were you suffering at the time? CHAIRPERSON Do you mean him personally as an individual because you are going to elicit all kinds of evidence from him that might not be pertinent to his amnesty application. You're not trying to ascertain the kind of evidence that will shed more light about whether there were political conflicts in the area and in that case ask a pointed question so that you can elicit a pointed response. MS LOONAT Thank you Madame Chair. Mr Ncishane, you did say that you're experiencing problems with the IFP members at the time. I just need to go back a little bit, Madame Chair. ADV DE JAGER I think we've agreed that it was common cause at that stage that there was an ongoing war between the two political factions, I think that's - unless there's something specific that you want to add to it, because I don't think it's disputed I think it's common cause that at that stage there was an ongoing war. He was a martial, he was instructed to go and kill these people in an operation of at that stage in this war. So I'm satisfied as far as that is concerned that he acted against a political opponent in a situation of war in the conflicts of the past. MS LOONAT Okay, may I just lead my client into why he left his employment which leads up to when he got his instructions to the killing. CHAIRPERSON But is that relevant? ADV DE JAGER Ja is it relevant to whether he was employed or not? Sorry. CHAIRPERSON Is that really relevant, efficiently relevant to what seems to be the crux and the ambit of your application which is that he's applying for amnesty on the basis that he was acting on instructions by Mr Ngcobo who is a commander, unless of course it is going to be disputed that Mr Ngcobo was a commander of Mr Ncishane? He's acting on instructions? MS LOONAT Yes Madame Chair, he was acting on instructions but he had reached - there was, as you'll accept a lot of raids, ANC/IFP but my client at this point, the first time that he ever did any criminal act in his life gave up his employment in order now to stay at home and look after his area, taking commands as a martial or whatever his status was in order to protect him and that is when the instruction came about for the common purpose. CHAIRPERSON Well you seem to be quite persistent in your wanting to lead that kind of evidence. We want to simply indicate to you that as far as we are concerned, unless there is a different version, we accept the fact that Mr Ngcobo - I mean Mr Ncishane, was acting under instructions of his commander Mr Themba Ngcobo and that seems to be sufficient for us to be able to apply the requirements of the Act whether he should be granted amnesty or not. Obviously there is another element of full disclosure, if you so wish however to persist in presenting that kind of evidence you are the person who is leading his evidence in chief, you may proceed to do so. Just don't waste too ...(intervention) MS LOONAT Thank you Madame Chair, I accept that you'll understand that there was a common purpose and that he has made full disclosure as far as he is concerned. He can only add ...(intervention) MS LOONAT You may proceed and lead the kind of evidence that you want to present to us with regard to why he lost his employment and there's probably something that you want to present to us that we are unaware of but if you do so, please just be quick because we don't think it is the kind of evidence that will assist us greatly in coming to a determination as to whether he qualifies for amnesty or not because your evidence, the ambit of the evidence is that he was acting under instructions. MS LOONAT Madame Chair, I'll go on, I won't proceed on that one, I just wish to ask ...(intervention) MR MALAN Will you please press the red button? MS LOONAT Sorry. Mr Ncishane, how do you feel about the crimes which you committed, how do you feel about it today? MR NCISHANE I'm feeling very bad now for what I did to these people. MS LOONAT What would you like to say to the victims' families if they are present? MR NCISHANE I beg for their forgiveness for what I did. I beg them to forgive me. It is something I will never do again. MS LOONAT So you would like to reconcile with the IFP members, of all parties? MR NCISHANE Yes. MS LOONAT Madame Chair, I have nothing further. CHAIRPERSON There is one aspect that you have omitted to deal with, Ms Loonat, and that's the act of robbery. No evidence has been led in respect of it. MS LOONAT Mr Ncishane, when you committed - when you went out to kill the two IFP members, why did you rob them and what did you rob them of? MR NCISHANE They were robbed of a wallet which had R30. We took the money because we wanted to buy ammunition. It was a wallet and a watch and the wallet contained R30. MS LOONAT Was this part of your instructions from your commander? MR NCISHANE I will say yes because we wanted to buy ammunition, we did not have enough ammunition. MS LOONAT Thank you Mr Ncishane. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT ADV DE JAGER Did you take the money? MR NCISHANE It's Mr Ngcobo who took the money. ADV DE JAGER You don't know what he did with it? MR NCISHANE I do not know what he did with it. CHAIRPERSON Now you are applying for robbery and you've only mentioned having robbed one of the deceased of a wallet which contained an amount of R30. Did you personally take anything from any of the deceased on that occasion? MR NCISHANE No. CHAIRPERSON Did you not take a wristwatch? MR NCISHANE I did not. CHAIRPERSON Do you recall that there was evidence in this regard by one of your co-accused, Mr Makatini, during your criminal trial? Do you recall that Mr Makatini said something to the effect that you had taken a wristwatch from one of the deceased? Do you recall that? MR NCISHANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You dispute that? MR NCISHANE I do not dispute that because of the length of time that has passed while I was in prison, I've forgotten some of the things. CHAIRPERSON Yes, no I'm all that I'm saying is would you agree with what was said by Makatini, was Makatini correct or was Makatini not telling the truth when he said you took a wristwatch? Was Mr Makatini mistaken that you had taken a wristwatch? MR NCISHANE I do not remember. CHAIRPERSON Now the robber that you are - for which you seek amnesty is that of the wallet which contained an amount of approximately R30, is that you are applying for amnesty when you say you robbed? MR NCISHANE I seek amnesty for the political crime that I committed as well as for everything that happened around the crime. MR MALAN May I ask him, Ms Loonat, according to the documents before us and the copy of the judgement, there seems not to be a finding or conviction on the robbery charges. MS LOONAT I stand to be corrected but I got the distinct impression that he was charged and was sentenced accordingly for robbery? MR MALAN Well if you will look on page 79 of the bundle at the bottom "Accused No 2, you will rise on count 1, on count 3. Ten years and ten years. Then accused 3, on count 1, 15 years, count 3, 15 years." But the robbery charges are listed on counts 2 and 4 and there's not reference to it in the judgement, the judgement on sentence? So I'm not sure that for some reason that's not within our knowledge? MS LOONAT There's no conviction, I beg your pardon, because I obviously misread it because I thought he was also convicted for robbery. CHAIRPERSON He wasn't but he's free to make it. MS LOONAT Ja he couldn't remember very well what happened because as I said in the supplement affidavit he has been effected and he wasn't quite sure but he wanted to come with full disclosure and because it was common purpose and the instruction was to steal cash towards, he felt that he should ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON There was a statement by a certain Mr Makatini to that effect, whether that was true or not obviously he has not been included in the judgement because there was no conviction. MR MALAN May I Chair, with your permission, on page 78 of the judgement of the bundle, the judgement on sentence, the first paragraph there summarises what happens, talks about the three of them, the co-accused, moving as a small band of armed men through an accepted Inkatha area and the first person that had come to be shot at was the witness Zondo and there was fire opened. He wasn't charged but it seems to me like one act. Shouldn't that be disclosed? Did that happen? Maybe I should put that directly to Mr Ncishane. Do you know a person called Zondo that gave evidence at the trial that said you shot at him? MR NCISHANE No I do not remember that person well. MR MALAN Well if you follow through, don't you remember him well or don't you remember him at all? Did you shoot at another person on the way to killing Cele and Mavundla? MR NCISHANE There is one person that we called and he was in a group of four and three of them ran away and that is the person that we shot. MR MALAN Then the summary here indicates to me and this is just my difficulty, that you were walking through an Inkatha area, the area where you killed these people was an Inkatha area, is that correct? MR NCISHANE No, the area was divided by a road and we were on the side of the ANC, we were not walking along an IFP area but we did cross the road and went into the IFP area. MR MALAN Yes, that's exactly what the summary says, you walked into the IFP area, then you opened fire on the witness there, Zondo. Then it continues to say that a certain Cele was on his way to the shop, that you confronted him and asked him about his political affiliations, that he said that he was the member of Inkatha and that you then shot him. Can you remember that? MR NCISHANE Yes. MR MALAN Did you stop Cele and ask him whether he was Inkatha or what his political affiliations were? MR NCISHANE Yes. MR MALAN And then you proceeded to go to another place where you took Mr Mavundla from a friends home, apparently not even his own home, you took him from another person's home, is that correct? MR NCISHANE Yes that is correct. That is when I ran away. MR MALAN After you had killed him? MR NCISHANE One of us, my boys, shot at him. Thereafter I ran away and whilst I was fleeing I heard another shot. I think Themba Ngcobo was the person who was shooting at him at the time, killing him. MR MALAN Why did you run away? MR NCISHANE I saw IFP members approaching from above and they were shooting and because I was not armed with a firearm, I just had a knobkierie, I ran away. MR MALAN When did your commander, Mr Themba Ngcobo, when did he instruct you to go and kill these people, where did it happen? Where did you receive your instructions? MR NCISHANE We were in an ANC area where we used to camp, it's Malukazi. MR MALAN Did he tell you you were to go and kill? MR NCISHANE He told us that whoever we meet we must shoot at them. MR MALAN So it was an instruction to go and look for IFP members to kill them. They weren't identified in advance, is that your evidence? MR NCISHANE Yes. MR MALAN Now, so these people were simply unfortunate that you got to them or did you have any knowledge that they were in a battle with you, these particular persons that you killed? MR NCISHANE It is not true that we were just going to shoot at the two of them but we intended to go to their camp but unfortunately for that person we met him as he was going to some house. MR MALAN Right, so just to get it clear then, the instruction was not to go and kill specific individuals, the instruction was to cross over into the IFP area, looking for IFP people to kill them and for you to accompany Ngcobo, is that correct? MR NCISHANE Yes I will say so. MR MALAN Now just the last question, just tell me in which way was Mr Ngcobo your commander, what was his authority, where did he get his authority from? MR NCISHANE He was elected by the ANC community, people like Gumede. MR MALAN And what was he elected to? MR NCISHANE He was told that he was going to be commander of the people, that he was going to be under him and he was also informed as to what they would do and how to deploy them. ADV DE JAGER Was he to organise the marshalls for the protection, was he the commander of the marshalls or what commander was he? MR NCISHANE I will say that he was the commander of those ANC people who would be coming along to look for our opponents. MR MALAN Were you part of those who elected him? MR NCISHANE No, but I was present. MR MALAN What did - you referred to the robbery for which you don't apply but I think it links onto the possible motive of the killing. From both the deceased you took wristwatches and wallets or money according to the evidence introduced at the trial. You say you can't dispute that but you have recollection only of the one? Did I understand you correctly? MR NCISHANE Yes. MR MALAN Now on page 67 of the judgement - of the bundle, right at the bottom, this is now after the wallet and the wristwatch had been taken from Mavundla and this is quoted from a statement made by your co-accused - what's his name? Sorry? Myboy Mavusa, according to a statement made by him, said that you went and you bought with the money four quarts of Castle beer and you all drank that, can you recall that? Did Themba buy you beer? MR NCISHANE I don't consume alcohol, I was not there went they bought that liquor. MR MALAN So they alone - do you have knowledge that they went to consume liquor or don't you have any knowledge of that? MR NCISHANE I don't know anything about that, I have no knowledge of what happened to the money. MR MALAN Okay, thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Mr Molohlanye, do you have any questions to put to Mr Ncishane? MR MOLOHLANYE No, I don't have any questions. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE No questions, Madame Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ncishane, will you therefore say a mistake was made when your affidavit was drawn up and attested to by you? Particularly at paragraph 6 where you state that the instructions were to kill specific persons and that what in fact happened was that you were instructed to kill - to launch an indiscriminate attack on IFP persons? MR NCISHANE Yes I would agree with that. CHAIRPERSON And when was such an instruction given by Mr Ngcobo, was it given on that particular day on which these attacks were carried out? MR NCISHANE He gave the order on the very same day that we launched the attack. CHAIRPERSON Yes and was Mr Cele killed at a different place from when Mr Mavundla was killed? MR NCISHANE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr Mavundla killed in a particular house? MR NCISHANE I would say that is correct because one person was killed near his house. CHAIRPERSON Was he killed inside the house? MR NCISHANE Outside the house. CHAIRPERSON I'm talking about Mr Mavundla, you say he was killed outside the house? MR NCISHANE Yes they were killed outside. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ncishane, you may step down. Ms Loonat? Do you propose to call any witness in support of Mr Ncishane's application? MS LOONAT No Madame Chair I don't, thank you. CHAIRPERSON You close your case? MS LOONAT Thank you Madame Chair. WITNESS EXCUSED