amntrans AMNESTY COMMITTEE 1999-06-28 PRETORIA 1 MOHAPI LAZARUS SELAMOLELA AM5419/97 SIMELANE MATTER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53509&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99062830_pre_990628pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Good afternoon, we are about to start the proceedings. Before we do so, can we just apologise for the delay in starting the proceedings. The initial delay related to the fact that some of the persons who are key to the proceedings, had some pre-existing commitments that we couldn't renegotiate, we have in fact arranged to proceed with this matter not so long ago, we have postponed sine die and as we indicated at that time, it is fairly difficult to get an opportunity on our schedule where we could get the same panel together, so all of this have been arranged at fairly shorter notice than normal and for that purpose, we had to accommodate some pre-existing commitments. Unfortunately we have encountered a further logistical problem in the course of the morning, in the sense that we had a difficulty in getting an appropriate Interpreter present at the proceedings. We have in fact managed to secure the assistance and the attendance of an Interpreter that had to be fetched elsewhere and brought to the venue here. So unfortunately we have not been able to start as we had indicated and we must apologise to everybody for any inconvenience that resulted from that delay. Just for the record, it is Monday the 28th of June 1999, we are continuing with the amnesty application of Coetzee and Others and we are dealing with the incident relating to Simelane. The panel and the appearances are as had been indicated earlier on the record and we had progressed to the point where Mr Lamey was presenting the cases of those applicants whom he represent. If I have it, it would be the matter of Mr Selamolela that would still remain. Would that be correct Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY Yes, that is correct Mr Chairman, yes. CHAIRPERSON So we will then hear the application of Mohapi Lazarus Selamolela and the reference number that I have is 5419/97. Yes, Mr Lamey, do you want your client to be sworn in or is there anything else that you wanted to put on record? MR LAMEY Yes Mr Chairman, before we proceed, I did indicate previously in chambers to the Committee that as the evidence unfolded, especially of Mr Veyi, that I at a certain stage - a moment was encountered at a certain stage during the proceedings, that I had to consider my position. Mr Chairman, I have reconsidered and I have also discussed it with Mr Selamolela and also had an opportunity to again peruse the evidence and also especially what has emanated from re-examination and Mr Chairman, at this stage, I don't foresee any potential conflict of interest between them and as I stated, as I have stated also that I have also discussed it with Mr Selamolela and it is also his wish that I further represent him for purposes of his application. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much Mr Lamey, we have noted that. Is there anything else that you want to raise, or do you want us to administer the oath to your client? MR LAMEY You can proceed with the oath, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Selamolela, can you hear the translation? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Are your full names Mohapi Lazarus Selamolela? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct. MOHAPI LAZARUS SELAMOLELA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Lamey? EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, before I start, I just want to point out that as in the case of Mr Veyi as well as Mr Mkhonza, the other applicants that I represent in this instance and there was also an initial amnesty application, I am instructed that was submitted during December 1996 and in which relating to the questions in Form 1 relating to the political objective and the nature and particulars, there was also reference to an annexure being a statement that Mr Selamolela made. At that stage, he did not have legal representation and it was, this first amnesty application was channelled I am instructed via the office of the Attorney General, to the Amnesty Committee. In this instance, I don't have any signed copy of that first application, but I have managed to obtain a statement which Mr Selamolela made to an Investigating Officer and which was purportedly signed under oath before Andrew Gordon Leask on 11-02-1996 relating to the Simelane incident. I have given my learned friend, Mr Visser, a copy of that statement, Mr Chairman. In view of the fact that the supplemented application which is part of the Bundle of page 560, relating to the Simelane incident, 560 to 570 and which was signed before I think the second cut off date of May 1997, I submit Mr Chairman, that this application as contained in the Bundle is really the one that will be relied upon. I can just say that as far as the nature and particulars is concerned as under question 9(a)(iv), what has been stated in the previous statement as far as I recollect, merely been incorporated into his amnesty application. ADV DE JAGER Mr Lamey, for what exactly is he applying? MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, he is applying for amnesty relating, if I can just, with his involvement and participation with the kidnapping and then Mr Chairman, there is a statement in so far as - and he says he also applies for amnesty for any other offence or delict which may be inferred from the facts. Now, the verbal evidence will also reflect that he is also applying amnesty for a certain degree of participation in the assault. ADV DE JAGER Yes, but isn't he applying for bombings too? MR LAMEY Yes. There is, I see in the Bundle, a reference to explosions at power stations in Johannesburg in which he is also an applicant, although that incident is not, I believe, before this panel as an incident to be heard, but he is also an applicant relating to that, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but for the purposes of our hearing here, the application that we are seized with, relates to the Simelane matter? MR LAMEY Yes, yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we've got that Mr Lamey and then your client's application appears on pages 560 to 573 of the Bundle, would that be right? MR LAMEY Yes Mr Chairman, that would also include then the other incident of the explosions at power stations. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LAMEY As far as the Simelane incident is concerned, up to 570. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Very well, yes, you may proceed. MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Selamolela, do you have your supplemented application before you, Form 1, which has been paginated at the right hand, page 560 to 570, relating to the Simelane incident, is that correct? Mr Selamolela, could you just have a look at that copy before you, have you signed it before a Commissioner of Oaths, do you confirm the correctness thereof, subject to what you will also further testify in oral evidence, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Now, is it correct if you have a look on page 561 that you joined the South African Police in September 1976? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY And that you became a member of the Security Police and you were a member of the Security Police between the period 1981 to 1993, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Mr Selamolela, is it correct that you have since retired from the South African Police, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY When did you retire? MR SELAMOLELA On the 31st of October 1998. MR LAMEY That is October last year? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Could you just have a look at your Force number there, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, it is correct. MR LAMEY Can you just tell the Committee for what reason did you retire from the South African Police? MR SELAMOLELA The Doctor stated that it is post-traumatic stress. MR LAMEY Did you retire as a result of medical reasons relating to post-traumatic stress? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, I have before me three reports of two, one of a Psychologist and two of a Psychiatrist which I beg leave to hand up. I believe that we are busy with Exhibits E at this stage, Exhibit EE I believe from my learned friends. CHAIRPERSON Is it EE? MR LAMEY Yes. CHAIRPERSON And is it one report, how many reports have you got? MR LAMEY There are three reports, may I beg leave to hand them up to you Mr Chairman, and then we can number them, decide which one is going to be number what? CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you. MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, my attention is just drawn by the Interpreter ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, so there is an extra copy for the Interpreters, very well. Mr Lamey, the sequence that we have it here, the first one is Dr J.J. Grove? MR LAMEY Yes, Mr Chairman, may we mark that report Exhibit EE!. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LAMEY Then the second one is of Dr J.P. Verster, EE2. CHAIRPERSON EE2? MR LAMEY And then there is one of a Clinical Psychologist, Russel Matthews, which I suggest EE3. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we have marked them as such. MR LAMEY Mr Selamolela, do you confirm that you have consulted these Medical Practitioners who have drafted these reports on your condition? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY They have described the nature of your condition in these reports and especially also that Dr Grove states that he has found that you have problems with your memory as well as your concentration abilities, and as well as Mr Matthews, is that also how you experience it? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Is it also correct that you are experiencing problems relating to sleeplessness and what is also referred to in the report? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY In the reports in general, your condition are related to your experiences as a member of the Police, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Mr Selamolela, could you just go to page 565, there is a short introduction about your background in becoming a member of the South African Police and then specifically also the Security Police, do you confirm what is stated n page 565 and 566, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Now, is it correct that during 1983 you were a member of specifically the Security Branch? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY At Soweto, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY And under the command of Mr Coetzee, who has been also an applicant in this hearing? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY You have referred to him as Colonel Coetzee, is that the last rank that you knew he had or what was his rank in 1983, can you remember? MR SELAMOLELA He was a Warrant Officer. MR LAMEY What was your rank in 1983? MR SELAMOLELA I was a Constable. MR LAMEY And what was your rank when you retired from the South African Police in 1998? MR SELAMOLELA An Inspector sir. MR LAMEY And in the old days, what was the equivalent rank of that of Inspector? MR SELAMOLELA Warrant Officer. MR LAMEY During 1983, we now come to your application relating to the particulars of the Simelane incident, Mr Selamolela. What specific Unit were you attached to at that stage in the Security Branch, Soweto? MR SELAMOLELA It was the Intelligence Unit within the Security Branch. MR LAMEY Did you know Scotch or Dan or Normal Mkhonza at that stage? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, I did know him. MR LAMEY What was his function at that point? MR SELAMOLELA He was an Undercover agent. MR LAMEY By Undercover agent, do you mean that he was a member of the Police who was working under cover and who has infiltrated the ANC, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY And what - where has he infiltrated the ANC, in which area? MR SELAMOLELA In Swaziland Chairperson. MR LAMEY Now, can you recall before the arrest or kidnapping of the lady Simelane, did you receive any instructions? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, Scotch informed me that he received instructions from Swaziland that he should go and meet somebody in Carlton Centre. MR LAMEY So Scotch informed you that he was to meet someone at the Carlton Centre, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA I was instructed by Warrant Officer Coetzee that I should go to Carlton Centre and Scotch also informed me that he was going to meet somebody in Carlton Centre. MR LAMEY Did Scotch tell you who he was going to meet? MR SELAMOLELA He told me, but he did not give me the identity of that person. MR LAMEY Did he tell you whether it is going to be a lady or a man that he is going to meet? MR SELAMOLELA He said he was going to meet a woman. MR LAMEY Okay. What did you understand from this, can I understand you this, did you understand that this meeting was sort of just a social meeting or was it, had it to do with his work? MR SELAMOLELA I understood that it was work related. MR LAMEY Did you understand that it was also related to his undercover work that he had to meet this person? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, I understood it that way. MR LAMEY What, can you recall what instructions did Coetzee give you? MR SELAMOLELA Warrant Officer Coetzee informed me that I should go to Carlton Centre and Scotch is coming there to meet somebody there, so I should conduct observations. MR LAMEY Were you instructed to keep observation? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct. I don't remember as to whether they were going to meet at Juicy Lucy or a certain place, then we should follow them to the basement. MR LAMEY Okay, you say in paragraph 1, can you just page to page 566, you say "... as far as I remember the following persons were also there," then you list Colonel Coetzee, Pretorius, Matiba, Sergeant Radebe and then in paragraph 2 you say - "... it is also possible that Safuthi and Mong were also there." If you, when you say there, what are you referring to? MR SELAMOLELA I meant that they were present at Carlton Centre. MR LAMEY Now, there has been evidence by Mr Coetzee to the effect that there was a meeting, a prior meeting, if I could just get to that specifically, Mr Chairman, it is Exhibit T, paragraph 10. Mr Coetzee testified there was a meeting at the Police flats at Custodum Norwood, that is now prior to the arrest or kidnapping of Simelane and he said that there were certain members present at that meeting. He said that certain information was given during that meeting about an MK person who was under way to the RSA, and that she had certain instructions from the leading element of MK in Swaziland, relating to the identification of targets and inland MK operators. Could you say, could you comment whether you were present at such a meeting? MR SELAMOLELA I was not present in that meeting. MR LAMEY When Coetzee gave you the instructions, can you recall, was she alone when he gave you the instructions, where was it, can you recall where it was when you received the instructions? MR SELAMOLELA I was alone, he phoned me telephonically and he told me that at four o'clock I should be at Carlton Centre. MR LAMEY You say he informed you telephonically, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether he informed you the same day of the same event, when the events took place at the Carlton Centre, was it before that? MR SELAMOLELA It was on the same day when we went to Carlton Centre, he informed me earlier. MR LAMEY Right, and then did you go to the Carlton Centre as instructed? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, I proceeded to Carlton Centre. MR LAMEY When you went to the Carlton Centre, did you apart from what Scotch had told you, that he was going to meet a lady and apart from the instruction that Coetzee gave you that you must observe there, did you know what was planned or what was going to take place at the Carlton Centre? MR SELAMOLELA I did not know what was going to happen or what was planned. MR LAMEY Now, what did you do at the Carlton Centre, you yourself, did you see other members there and what transpired there at the Carlton Centre? MR SELAMOLELA That woman appeared, then she went to Scotch then they sat on the table, around the table. MR LAMEY Yes. MR VISSER Sorry Mr Chairman, I don't know if it is only mine, but I have a beeping noise on my earphones and every time the beep comes on, the words that the Interpreter is speaking, are lost. I heard nothing of the last answer, I am not sure whether it is only mine or whether that is a common problem? CHAIRPERSON Yes, mine has a bit of a disturbance, a slight disturbance in the background, but I didn't have that interruption that you have. Perhaps try another set. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Can you just repeat that, the last answer. INTERPRETER The woman appeared and then she met Scotch and then they sat around the table. MR LAMEY Where were you when you saw this? MR SELAMOLELA I was present in that fast food restaurant. MR LAMEY And then what transpired further? MR SELAMOLELA Scotch talked to that particular lady, after they drank a glass of juice, they did not waste time, they descended to the basement. Then I followed them. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I enquire from my learned friend, Mr Lamey, whether there is any particular reason why we don't refer to the people as we are used to them, by their names. We are used to Mkhonza, now this part of this record is now going to refer to as Scotch, if anyone else along the line should want to read this record, it is going to be very confusing. CHAIRPERSON Yes, perhaps it would help Mr Lamey. I must confess that you know, some of the names I also have a bit of a difficulty to place where they fit into the picture, so perhaps it is a good idea to, if you are able to, just to stick to those names that these people have been referred to previously, so Scotch should be? MR LAMEY Okay, Mr Chairman, I take the point, I will just ask Mr Selamolela then. Mr Selamolela, I know that you, Scotch that you refer to, that is Mr Norman Mkhonza who has also been an applicant, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY I know that you know him as Scotch and you have referred in your application to him as Scotch and you also know him by that name, but for the record here, would you just, when you refer to Scotch, would you just refer then to Mr Mkhonza or Mr Norman Mkhonza? MR SELAMOLELA I will do so. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAMEY Could you just continue then from there on, what happened after he had the drink with this lady in the restaurant? MR SELAMOLELA Ms Simelane and Norman Mkhonza descended to the basement to Norman's car. MR LAMEY Before that happened, did you also see other members of your Unit or the Security Police around in the vicinity? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, I saw them. MR LAMEY What happened then further after Normal Mkhonza or Mkhonza and this lady went to the basement? MR SELAMOLELA When they used the "hyser" to the basement, Warrant Officer Coetzee and Sergeant Radebe they took the lady and put her in the boot, but I don't know who got hold of Mr Mkhonza at that particular time. MR LAMEY Was, if you say you don't know who got hold of him, but was there also something that happened to Mr Mkhonza? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, they got hold of him. It was sort of a false or a fake arrest. MR LAMEY Then what happened further? MR SELAMOLELA Sergeant Radebe and together with Ms Simelane were put in the boot of Warrant Officer Coetzee, then we followed them to Norwood, we went to, we proceeded to Norwood Married Quarters. MR LAMEY Did you have your own vehicle in which you followed or how did it happen? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, I was driving my own car. MR LAMEY Can you recall this grabbing at the Carlton Centre, what - can you recall what time of the day was it? MR SELAMOLELA It was in the afternoon, between four o'clock and five o'clock. MR LAMEY Right, and you then proceeded to the Married Quarters at Norwood? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY I take it that was Police Married Quarters? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY And what transpired then further there? MR SELAMOLELA When we arrived at Norwood, we parked our cars at the back, there was a parking area at the back. Then Warrant Officer told us that he would be back. MR LAMEY And what transpired further that day? MR SELAMOLELA At dusk Warrant Officer Coetzee took a car and put it next to the second flat, then they took him either to the 10th or 11th floor, that is where the Security Police were working. MR LAMEY What transpired then there? MR SELAMOLELA It was at night, then Warrant Officer Coetzee and Sergeant Pretorius started with the interrogation. MR LAMEY Now, and can you recall what topics were discussed during the interrogation? MR SELAMOLELA They were asking as whether she was military trained and what was her purpose in South Africa. MR LAMEY Was she assaulted at that point in time? MR SELAMOLELA On the particular day when she was detained at Norwood flats, nobody assaulted her. MR LAMEY This is now the first day of ... MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE Just let's get this right, you were saying you did not see anybody assault her, not that nobody assaulted her, you did not see anybody assault her? MR SELAMOLELA On the first day, I did not see anybody assaulting her. MR LAMEY Okay. Now, did you - can I just ask you this, you have previously testified initially that you were instructed to observe what was taking place at the Carlton Centre, but you did not know really what was going to happen. Now at some point in time during that day, this person was now taken there from the Carlton Centre, was this - and you have also referred to it in your application, paragraph "arrested", did it appear to you that this arrest was a normal arrest at a certain stage, or was there something which was not usual or normal about this arrest? MR SELAMOLELA I thought the arrest was not usual. MR LAMEY And why do you say that? MR SELAMOLELA Because when she was arrested, she was not taken to the Police station, therefore we did not follow the right procedure of arrest because we could have taken her to the Police station and lay a charge there. MR LAMEY Can you - did you sleep over that first night at Norwood or what happened, did you leave at a certain stage? MR SELAMOLELA I left late at night, that is around 12 o'clock. MR LAMEY Where did you sleep? MR SELAMOLELA I went home. MR LAMEY Can you say, when you left, whether other members remained behind with her? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, there were some who were left. MR LAMEY Sorry the interpretation said that some left, I don't... INTERPRETER Were left behind. MR LAMEY Oh, I see. After that first night, did you at any stage attend again there at Norwood Police Quarters? MR SELAMOLELA I returned again, I don't know as to whether it was the following day or a day, or two days after, but I remember that I did return. MR LAMEY Can you recall when you returned there, well, wee you instructed to return there or how did it happen that you returned there? MR SELAMOLELA I was instructed to return to the Married Quarters. MR LAMEY During that stage, were you also involved with other work, apart from this incident? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY What kind of other word were you also busy with? MR SELAMOLELA It was involving the collecting of reports from the informers and to make sure that they do attend the meetings. MR LAMEY Okay, You testified that you can't recall whether it was the day thereafter or a further day thereafter that you attended there again at Norwood, is that correct? Was it during the afternoon or can you recall during what time of the day did you then again attend at Norwood? MR SELAMOLELA I don't remember, but I would say it was during the day and again, I did not sleep at Norwood, I went home to sleep. MR LAMEY So you did not sleep there? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY This second time that you attended there at the Norwood Quarters, did you witness anything relating to the physical appearance of this lady, Simelane? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, there is something I observed. MR LAMEY What did you observe? MR SELAMOLELA I observed that she was assaulted because her face was swollen and her lips were broken. MR LAMEY Sorry, the translation was now that her lips were broken, what do you mean by that? MR SELAMOLELA Her lower lip was cut. MR LAMEY Can you recall that second time that you went there at Norwood, how long did you attend there? MR SELAMOLELA May you please repeat the question. MR LAMEY The second time that you now attended at the Norwood Quarters, when you saw that she had injuries, how long did you stay there, can you recall that? MR SELAMOLELA I do not remember well, I went there late and then again I went back home to sleep. MR LAMEY Now, did you yourself, the second time did you yourself, personally, witness any assaults? MR SELAMOLELA I did not observe anybody assaulting her. MR LAMEY All right, and yourself, did you participate in any assaults on her at Norwood? MR SELAMOLELA I did not take part at Norwood. MR LAMEY You say in your application that you gathered that she was assaulted because of the injuries that you observed on her, is that correct, her swollen face and you have also now testified about the lip that was cut? Is that what made you assume that she was assaulted? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct, because at the time when she was arrested, she wasn't swollen. MR LAMEY Was there a change in clothing, a difference in clothing at Norwood, what I mean difference, a difference between the clothing that she had when she was arrested and any other clothing? MR SELAMOLELA When I returned for the second time, she was wearing a brown overall. MR LAMEY Do you know or can you comment whether she was interrogated at the time when you went there the second time? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, she was interrogated. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether you went to Norwood after that second time or can you recall how many times you went to Norwood? MR SELAMOLELA I went on two occasions, I was present on the first time and then when I returned, that is the only time I went to Norwood. ADV DE JAGER Mr Lamey, you said she was interrogated, was it in his presence? MR LAMEY Maybe let me just clarify that, the second time that you visited Norwood, was she interrogated in your presence, meaning asked questions and so on, I am not referring now to assaults? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, for the first time and second time when she was interrogated, I was present. MR LAMEY Okay. Now, right you say you recall that you were there on two occasions, at Norwood. After that, what happened then further? MR SELAMOLELA After that, I received a message together with Sergeant Veyi ... MR LAMEY Sorry, I omitted to ask you something still at Norwood, during the time there at Norwood, can I ask you was Mr Veyi, can you recall whether he was there on the first occasion that you were there or on the second occasion? MR SELAMOLELA I will say he was present on the second occasion if I remember well. MR LAMEY Did some of the members, other members - let's refer to them the black members, did they sleep over there at Norwood? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, they were working on shifts, so there were those who were sleeping on the first day and those who would sleep on the next day. MR LAMEY Okay, sorry I interrupted you. Then, now after this, your visits there at Norwood, or your attendance at Norwood Quarters, what happened further? MR SELAMOLELA She was taken to a farm in Northum. MR LAMEY Can you recall with who did you go there? MR SELAMOLELA I was together with Sergeant Veyi because we received an instruction that we should go to Northum Police station, then they would find us there. MR LAMEY Who gave you the instruction to go to Northum Police station? MR SELAMOLELA Warrant Officer Coetzee gave me the instruction. MR LAMEY And then what transpired then further there? MR SELAMOLELA When we arrived at the Police station, I don't remember who came to collect us at the Police station, then we proceeded to the farm where Ms Simelane was held. MR LAMEY Can I ask you, can you give an indication how according to your own memory or estimation, how long was she kept at Norwood? MR SELAMOLELA I would say it was approximately a week. MR LAMEY And when you arrived at this farm in Northum, was she already there or did she arrive the same day as you arrived there or how did it happen? MR SELAMOLELA I don't know when she arrived there, but when we arrived, she was already there. MR LAMEY Can you tell me how long, when you went there first to this farm in Northum, did you have to sleep over there? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, we slept over there. MR LAMEY Can you recall on this first occasion that you visited this farm where she was kept, how long did you stay there? MR SELAMOLELA For the first time, we stayed three to four days, that is for the first time. MR LAMEY So your first visit on the farm, you stayed there three to four days and you slept over there, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY And when you left there after the three to four days that you slept there, were you relieved by anyone else, by other members? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Can you remember - where was she kept on this farm? ADV DE JAGER Mr Lamey, while you are there, could you perhaps give us the names who relieved him and who were with him on the farm? MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman, can you recall at all Mr Selamolela of the members that slept over with you during your first visit to the farm, who were they? Can you remember any of them and if so, who were they? MR SELAMOLELA During the first visit it was myself and Sergeant Veyi and Warrant Officer Coetzee and Sergeant Pretorius and Sergeant Matiba, together with Sergeant Radebe. ADV GCABASHE I missed the last bit, are you saying that Sergeant Matiba and Radebe relieved you or are you saying that they were with you the first time you slept there for about three to four nights? MR SELAMOLELA When we arrived at the farm, I don't remember whom we found, but the person who was there was Warrant Officer Coetzee and Warrant Officer Pretorius, myself and Sergeant Veyi, we slept together those three to four days with Sergeant Radebe and Matiba. I don't know as to whether Sergeant Matiba returned with us, but the one I remember well as to the point that he returned with us, is Sergeant Radebe. MR LAMEY Can you recall at all whether Coetzee and Pretorius slept over there? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, they slept at that farm. MR LAMEY Could there also have been other members that during those three to four days that you stayed there at the first occasion, could there also have been other members that you can't now recall specifically? MR SELAMOLELA That is possible because we were many. MR LAMEY Can you recall with whom did you return after you slept there on the first occasion? MR SELAMOLELA I returned with Sergeant Veyi. ADV GCABASHE And Sergeant Radebe? MR SELAMOLELA He stayed behind, I only left with Sergeant Veyi. I don't know as to whether he left after we had left. MR LAMEY Is it correct Mr Selamolela, is it a correct assumption from my part to say that ... ADV DE JAGER Mr Lamey, I think there may be a misunderstanding, I think that is why my colleague asked this question, because just a moment before he said something "Radebe returned with us", could you just clarify that? MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman, yes. I also thought that I heard that Mr Chairman. Just to get clarity on this Mr Selamolela, I know it is a long time ago and you are asked to recall and you must tell if you can't recall specifically, but can you recall about Radebe, after you slept there on the first occasion, three to four nights, did he return with you back to Soweto or did he remain behind or what is the situation? MR SELAMOLELA I don't know as to whether he remained behind, I left with Sergeant Veyi, I don't know as to whether he left and came back. MR LAMEY And Matiba, can you recall anything about him? MR SELAMOLELA I don't know as to whether we left him behind or when we were off duty, he was also off duty. I can't remember. ADV GCABASHE Again, then just clarify, when you went up to Northum, were you alone in your motor vehicle with Mr Veyi? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, I was only with Sergeant Veyi when we went to Northum for the first time. ADV GCABASHE And of the black Officers, you found Mr Matiba and Mr Radebe at the farm? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MR LAMEY Okay, what was the purpose of you going with Veyi to the farm at Northum? MR SELAMOLELA I thought we were going to help with security and the interpretation because she was guarded 24 hours. MR LAMEY Sorry, the translation was security, but I have heard you using the word "guard" yourself, is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, I meant to put guard. MR LAMEY Mr Selamolela, can you recall how many times did you visit, on how many occasions did you visit the farm at Northum? MR SELAMOLELA I went on two occasions, I went during the first week and then I went on the fourth week. MR LAMEY You say the second occasion was during the fourth week? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY How long did you stay there on the second occasion? MR SELAMOLELA I don't remember well, it may happen that we stayed for a week or four days. MR LAMEY Four days to a week? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Can you recall at all on the second occasion when you went there, with whom did you go there? Did you go with anybody in particular and return with that same person that you went there, or how did it work? MR SELAMOLELA It may happen that I went together with Sergeant Veyi and then again I returned with him. MR LAMEY Also on the second occasion? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Now, is it possible that the other members that stayed there during the time that you stayed at Northum, in both occasions, were not always the same, in other words there were different people, different black members at different times at this farm in Northum? MR SELAMOLELA May you please repeat your question. MR LAMEY Were there different black members on the occasions that you visited the farm, or spent time on the farm, in other words did the people, the black members come and go and relieved in shifts so to speak? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct, they would come and leave because we were many. MR LAMEY Is it possible that Mr Veyi was there on more than two occasions than you? MR SELAMOLELA That may be possible. ADV GCABASHE But tell me, how would you know who was at the farm when you were back in Johannesburg? Is this something you discussed, just give me an idea as to how you would know what was going on at the farm? MR SELAMOLELA Those who would be left, they would be relieving us then I would be able to notice the identity of the people who would remain behind. ADV GCABASHE Yes, but you were away for a long period between your first and your second visit, now how would you know how many shifts there had been in the four weeks that you were away or the three weeks that you were away from the farm, just help me there? MR SELAMOLELA I would put it this way, when I went for the first time, there were Police Officers who were there, black Police Officers and then when I went for the second time, I found a certain group there, though I am not able to remember the identity of those. ADV GCABASHE The question really is in part, let's use Mr Veyi as an example, how would you know that he had been there on more than two occasions, you are certain of two because you were with him, but how would you know that he had been there on more than two occasions? MR SELAMOLELA If he was not at work or in the office, I would assume that he was at the farm, then if he was present at the office, I would know that he was not at the farm. MR LAMEY Mr Selamolela, in other words, you returned back to base and your office at Soweto, is that correct, after you had been the farm? Is that correct? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And back at the branch in Soweto, you would then also learn that some other people are going, coming and going to the farm and back? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct, yes. MR LAMEY Just to get back to one aspect, can you remember where on this particular farm, in what circumstances was she kept at the farm? MR SELAMOLELA There was an outside room at the farm, which was not far from the main house, she was kept in that outside room and then she was cuffed on the legs, and then she was wearing an overall. MR LAMEY All right, let us just take it step by step in the occasions that you visited there, and if you can't put a certain aspect in terms of one of a certain occasion that you were there, you must please say so. On the first occasion that you were there, was she wearing this brown overall? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct, she wore that from Norwood and then she went down with it. MR LAMEY And how - was she cuffed at all? MR SELAMOLELA She was cuffed on the legs and at times she would be handcuffed. MR LAMEY Was she most of the time then cuffed on her legs and on certain times, also the hands? Is that what you are saying? MR SELAMOLELA At all times she was handcuffed and cuffed on the legs, but when she was interrogated, they would loosen the cuffs on the hands and then she was always cuffed on the legs. MR LAMEY Is this on the first occasion or on both occasions? MR SELAMOLELA Both these occasions. MR LAMEY On the first occasion that you went there, was she interrogated in your presence? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Who, can you recall who led the interrogation? MR SELAMOLELA Warrant Officer Coetzee. MR LAMEY On your visit to Northum, did you learn more about this person that was now kidnapped from the Carlton Centre, as to what she was doing and from who did you learn it? MR SELAMOLELA Warrant Officer Coetzee informed us that Ms Simelane is a trained cadre and then she was on a mission in South Africa. ADV GCABASHE Yes, Mr Lamey, just clarify this for us, when did he tell you this, I am not too sure about this? MR LAMEY When did you learn this for the first time? MR SELAMOLELA He informed us at Norwood and again, he repeated that at the farm in Northum. MR LAMEY Okay, now can you recall on the first occasion in Northum, in general, what was the interrogation about? What information was wanted from Ms Simelane? MR SELAMOLELA Warrant Officer Coetzee was asking her about members of MK who were trained and who were now in South Africa and about her mission and about the arms inside the country. ADV DE JAGER The last - the "umps" in the country? INTERPRETER Arms. ADV DE JAGER Arms? MR LAMEY Was she - did she cooperate in divulging the information or what transpired? MR SELAMOLELA She denied that she did not know anything. ADV GCABASHE Can you say that again. MR SELAMOLELA She denied and said that she did not know anything. MR LAMEY During this interrogation, did you witness any assaults on her? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, she was assaulted whilst she was interrogated. MR LAMEY And I am talking about specifically, if you can recall on the first occasion, if you can't distinguish on the first or second occasion, you must please say so, but on the first occasion, can you recall how she was assaulted? MR SELAMOLELA They would use a hood on the head and then they would use electric shocks. MR LAMEY A hood on the head, sorry, I ... ADV DE JAGER Was it a bag that they used on her head? MR SELAMOLELA It is a bag like the money bag used at the bank. MR LAMEY What was the purpose of using the bag? MR SELAMOLELA It was used because she was saying she was not trained, therefore they would put, they would suffocate her with that bag. MR LAMEY All right, and what else did you witness, what form of assaults did you witness, that you can recall? MR SELAMOLELA And then again she was kicked, then she was hit with fists and she was kicked. MR LAMEY Did you assist in any manner during the interrogation and if you assisted, in what way did you assist, I am talking about specifically the interrogation part? MR SELAMOLELA There would be a time when I would grab her when she was screaming, or again I would put the bag while she was assaulted. MR LAMEY Did you put the bag on alone or how did it happen? Who came forward with the bag, who had the bag with him? MR SELAMOLELA Warrant Officer Coetzee. MR LAMEY Would you take the bag from him and put it over her head or how did it happen? MR SELAMOLELA Coetzee would inform, would instruct me to put the bag on her head, so that I would suffocate her. Then somebody would grab her legs and somebody would grab her hands. MR LAMEY Then, do I take it that in other occasions you assisted by holding her while she was assaulted by other members? MR SELAMOLELA That is correct. MR LAMEY Did you yourself, I am talking about you personally, did you administer any kick or other, participated in other ways that you have described? MR SELAMOLELA I did not assault her in any way other than putting the bag on her head and holding her. MR LAMEY Okay, now, during this first period that you stayed at Northum, apart from what you have mentioned, the hitting and the kicking and the bag, can you recall on this first occasion any other form of torture or assault that was used? MR SELAMOLELA At the time when she looked like losing her breath, Warrant Officer Coetzee would instruct Radebe to put her in the little dam. ADV GCABASHE You - to put her into the dam or to throw her into the dam? MR SELAMOLELA He would throw her in the dam, holding her overall. He would put her head in the dam and take her out again, but he was not throwing her and leaving her. MR LAMEY What kind of dam was it? MR SELAMOLELA It was built with iron, iron zinc. ADV GCABASHE Corrugated iron. INTERPRETER Corrugated iron, yes. MR LAMEY You have already told us the way, is there any other way that you can recall on the first period that you stayed there in the manner that she was assaulted? MR SELAMOLELA I think I have stated all methods of assault. MR LAMEY Now, what would happen with her during the assaults, did she suffer injuries and what generally happened with her as a result of these assaults? MR SELAMOLELA Her face was scary because it was swollen, it was round, she had blue eyes, red eyes and then she was not able to walk because she was injured by the cuffs and she was not able to walk. And then her lip or her lips were cut. MR LAMEY Now, in consultation one, if you can just go to paragraph 6, a certain sentence in paragraph 6 was discussed with you where you say "... it was my first experience of someone being assaulted by the Security Police." I just want you to clarify that at this stage, was it your first experience of assaults or what did you want to convey here? MR SELAMOLELA I was saying it was my first experience to observe a person being tortured in that way. MR LAMEY Did you previously experience a certain measure of assault on a detainee before this incident? MR SELAMOLELA I don't remember as to whether it was the first time, it was before this incident or after this incident, but this was the first of its kind. MR LAMEY If you say it was the first of its kind, what really do you mean by that? MR SELAMOLELA This one was severe. MR LAMEY Now, the second time you have testified you visited the farm during the fourth week ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Lamey, before you go there, can you just explain to us, the electric shocks, electrical shocks that you referred to, just give us details of that. What was actually done to Ms Simelane? MR SELAMOLELA It was a machine which was operated through batteries, if I remember well, it was a small machine. It was smaller than a half a loaf and it was operated with batteries, it had two cables and then it was wounded. Then they would put the cables on her neck, then they would wind, Warrant Officer Coetzee would wind this machine, then she would scream at that time, because she was choking. ADV GCABASHE Again I wasn't sure if the cables were on the legs or on the neck? INTERPRETER It was on the neck. CHAIRPERSON You say that she would scream. When would she scream? MR SELAMOLELA She would scream when she was assaulted and then again when she was electrocuted. CHAIRPERSON At what point would she scream? Would it be when he was winding up the machine or when he was putting on the cables, connecting the cables to her neck or when, at what stage, what would make her scream? MR SELAMOLELA Because of the shocks from that machine, then at that particular time when she experiences those shocks, she would start screaming. CHAIRPERSON When does the machine work, when does it shock you? Is it when it is being wound up or at what stage, how does one make or cause the machine to administer shocks to a person? MR SELAMOLELA You would experience the shocks immediately when the machine is wound. CHAIRPERSON Was this done a number of times on this first occasion or was it only done once to her, can you give us some idea? MR SELAMOLELA The electric, that machine was used once. I don't know whether as to whether it was for the first occasion or during the second occasion, but it was used once in the particular occasion. ADV DE JAGER Sorry, could you just explain, you said it was used once on a particular occasion, you can't remember the first or second, could you kindly explain was it used on the first occasion as well as on the second occasion or was it used only once, but you can't remember on which occasion? MR SELAMOLELA I do not remember as to whether it was the first occasion or the second occasion, but it was used once in my presence. CHAIRPERSON Was it used after she had denied that she knows anything about the topics that she was interrogated about? MR SELAMOLELA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Lamey, have you got any further questions arising from this particular, before you get to the second incident, second occasion, I am sorry. MR LAMEY No Mr Chairman, I am on the point to start, I don't have any questions on this, I think this aspect has been covered thank you. Will this be a convenient stage to adjourn Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I assume that it will take you a while to take through the rest of the evidence in chief? MR LAMEY Yes, I've still got some questions to ask, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, under those circumstances, we will adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene in this venue, tomorrow morning at half past nine. We are adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS