amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-30 TZANEEN 1 THOMAS NGOBENI AM 0719 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53514&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/990630_tza_990630tz.htm ON RESUMPTION MR MBANDAZAYO The next applicant Chairperson,is Thomas Ngobeni. THOMAS NGOBENI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Ngobeni,the affidavit which is in front of you, is also before the Honourable Committee,members of the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourselfand you abide by its contents? MR NGOBENI Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, that is the evidencefor the applicant. CHAIRPERSON The affidavit, Mr Van Rensberg,you have a copy and Ms Mtanga, that will be received as Exhibit C. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Mr Van Rensberg? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBERG MR NGOBENI Yes, I can tell you. MR VAN RENSBERG Please proceed. CHAIRPERSON If you can just tell what offencesyou are applying for amnesty, that is the question. MR NGOBENI It is murder, illegal possessionof firearm and ammunition and attempted robbery. MR VAN RENSBERG Can you tell us what evidencewas led in the criminal trial, that led to your conviction of attempted robbery? MR NGOBENI Can you repeat your question. MR VAN RENSBERG The question is can you justbriefly tell this Commission what evidence were led, was led, during the criminaltrial that led to your conviction on the count of attempted robbery? MR NGOBENI What I can remember on attemptedrobbery, we never gave any evidence because our aim was not to rob. MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, I am asking what evidencewas led from the State's side? MR NGOBENI They only told us that we arecharged with attempted robbery, but I never heard Mr Swanepoel talking aboutattempted robbery. CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBENI MR VAN RENSBERG MR NGOBENI Yes, that is correct. MR VAN RENSBERG But I gather from your previousstatement that you actually did not give evidence yourself, is that not correct? MR NGOBENI I don't understand which statementyou are talking about. MR VAN RENSBERG MR NGOBENI I don't understand whether youare talking about evidence in court given by myself? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think that is what MrVan Rensberg is asking, did you during your trial in court, give evidence yourself? MR NGOBENI Yes, I gave evidence, but theevidence I gave after I was arrested, some of those were coerced to make suchevidence. JUDGE KHAMPEPE MR NGOBENI Yes, after sentence, I gave evidencein mitigation of sentence. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. MR NGOBENI And I gave it wilfully. MR VAN RENSBERG Apart from giving evidencein mitigation, did you actually also give evidence in defence of yourself ornot, only in mitigation? MR NGOBENI I also gave some evidence beforewe were convicted, even before we went to, but the evidence that I gave is notthe same evidence that I gave in mitigation of sentence, so to say. MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, and the difference wasthat when you gave evidence in your own defence, you did not mention that youwere a member of APLA and that you attacked the farm for political reasons,is that not so? MR NGOBENI It is not correct, I explainedthat I was a member of APLA. MR VAN RENSBERG Let's not get confused, didyou explain to the Court the first time when you gave evidence on your own behalf,before you were found guilty, did you give evidence then that you were a memberof APLA? MR NGOBENI I don't know if - I forgottenbecause it is a long time ago, but I remember telling the Court, but I am notsure whether I didn't say, but I think I told the Court that I was a memberof APLA. MR VAN RENSBERG JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Van Rensberg, do you personallyhave instructions in relation to this point, if you put it to him, will yourclient also say something to that effect? MR VAN RENSBERG Perhaps I can just take specificinstructions on that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE MR VAN RENSBERG JUDGE KHAMPEPE You may proceed to do so. MR VAN RENSBERG MR NGOBENI MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, the question then thatremains to be answered is why didn't you if you now are frank and open and putall your cards on the table to spell out exactly what your political motiveswere at the time, why didn't you explain that in the court of law as well? MR NGOBENI It was very difficult that time,because of our experience how the political people were handled by the governmentof the National Party, so it was very much difficult for us if they could haveknown that we were members of APLA, they were going to treat us very badly,just like other people who were killed by the Security Police, more especiallyin prison. MR VAN RENSBERG Thank you Mr Chairperson,I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA No questions Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Judge Khampepe, do you have anyquestions? JUDGE KHAMPEPE No questions. CHAIRPERSON Adv Bosman, any questions? ADV BOSMAN I don't have any questions, thankyou Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ngobeni, that concludesyour testimony, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, I will only callone witness, Gen Fihla only on two specific points to give evidence, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR FIHLA Mbulelo Raymond. CHAIRPERSON Mbulelo? MR FIHLA Yes, Raymond Fihla. MBULELO RAYMOND FIHLA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO MR FIHLA I am presently with Defence Intelligence,I am part of the collection team under Major General Steenkamp. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committeeyour rank? MR FIHLA I am a Brigadier General by rank. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Fihla, can you tell theCommittee, before you became a member of the South African National DefenceForce, which of the non-statutory forces did you belong to? MR FIHLA I belonged to the Azanian Peoples'Liberation Army and I was a member of the High Command and at that time, Directorfor Military Intelligence. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you Gen Fihla tell theCommittee, whether do you know any of the applicants in this hearing? MR FIHLA MR MBANDAZAYO MR FIHLA MR MBANDAZAYO You mention that Lethlapa Mpahlela,former Director of Operations, and you said that when you talk about casualties,can you expand on that? MR FIHLA MR MBANDAZAYO It was also mentioned here,can you elaborate that it was mentioned that there were two, you also had twocertain Units within APLA, a Repossession Unit and an Offensive Unit, can youbriefly tell the Committee, whether the same Unit can do the same, can be involved- if the Offensive Unit can be involved in the Repossession Unit and the RepossessionUnit can be involved in the offensive operations? MR FIHLA MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, that is the evidenceI wanted to lead in this aspect from Gen Fihla, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBERG MR FIHLA MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, let's put it this way,you would definitely not expect them to leave it there, is it not? MR FIHLA MR VAN RENSBERG Okay, let's narrow it down,it was definitely not against the orders of the attackers in that specific instance,to have taken guns and cash if the opportunity arose? MR FIHLA MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, but if we talk aboutthe general attitude of the High Command towards such a thing, it would nothave been seen as totally strange if they would have taken the guns and thecash? MR FIHLA MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, and you as High Commanddid not have a serious problem with that? MR FIHLA We had a problem with that. MR VAN RENSBERG Did you ever discipline thosemembers that took money or guns when they were supposed to kill people? MR FIHLA MR VAN RENSBERG MR FIHLA MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, if I can refer you tothe statement of the first applicant, Mr Thobejane. CHAIRPERSON Exhibit A? MR VAN RENSBERG MR MBANDAZAYO Sorry Chairperson, just a correctionthere, I think there it was a typographical error, it should be South AfricanDefence Force. MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, (b). MR MBANDAZAYO MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, I don't think I willhave a problem with that amendment, it clearly refers in (b) to members of theSouth African Defence Force and then MR FIHLA Partly yes, but our understandingwas that the farmers who formed the first line of defence through the CommandoUnit system and so on. MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, and it was general knowledgethat farmers are armed? MR FIHLA Yes. MR VAN RENSBERG So with that knowledge ifI interpret your evidence correctly, you say that it was APLA's policy or instructionsthat in fact, in spite of the fact that they attacked armed farmers, if theycome across guns, they should leave it there and not disarm the farmers becauseit is not part of that Unit's responsibility, is that your evidence? CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBERG It should be totally separate. CHAIRPERSON Just rephrase the question. MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON Before I put that, was I incorrectin what I said? MR FIHLA You are correct, that is what Isaid. MR VAN RENSBERG MR FIHLA Unfortunately I did not see theCourt ruling and I am not too sure if that ruling was based on what, so I wouldn'tcommit myself on that one. MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON I said I think it was the 16th,I wasn't sure of the date. JUDGE KHAMPEPE That is correct. MR FIHLA It is correct, the 16th. MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, I just want to confirmthat, is that in fact the correct date that we are talking about, 16th of January1994? MR FIHLA I am not too sure about the date,but it was in January 1994. MR VAN RENSBERG Have you as part, or at leastformer part of APLA's High Command, what steps have you taken to make sure thatyour cadres on the ground today, has received that orders? MR FIHLA CHAIRPERSON General, APLA, does it stillexist? MR FIHLA APLA still exists in as far as integrationis concerned. CHAIRPERSON But it doesn't have its formalstructures in place, etc? MR FIHLA No, that structure is now part andparcel of the Defence Force. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR FIHLA But within the Defence Force, westill remain an entity to make sure that everything that pertains to APLA isaddressed. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You no longer have the Offensive,the Repossession and the other Units? MR FIHLA Not at all, we are part and parcelof the government structures now, members of the Defence Force. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. MR VAN RENSBERG MR FIHLA We made a lot of effort, even wewent to an extent of visiting some of the members who were in prison as wellincluding the applicants themselves, I think I have been in contact with thefirst applicant as well, even as late as when was it, last week, if I am notmistaken, so we have made an effort to make sure that we get into contact withall former APLA members wherever they are. MR VAN RENSBERG Are you saying that you,yourself, gave the order to the first applicant that the war is over now? MR FIHLA I didn't, because I was not directlyresponsible for him. MR VAN RENSBERG If I understand your evidencecorrectly, you said you never had any knowledge of this specific attack thatwe are talking about, until after it had already happened? MR FIHLA Yes. MR VAN RENSBERG That definitely was not thecase with Mr Mpahlela, is that not so, he knew about the attack? MR FIHLA MR VAN RENSBERG I see, so Mr Lethlapa Mpahleladid know about this attack? MR FIHLA He did know about the attack yes,because he gave the authority to go ahead. MR VAN RENSBERG Do you know if Mr Mpahlelahas made application for amnesty? MR FIHLA I am not too sure whether he hasfinally did it for this one specifically but I know that he did apply for anumber of other operations were he was directly involved, but in terms of thisone specifically, I am not too sure. MR VAN RENSBERG Do you know what positionMr Mpahlela is holding at the moment? MR FIHLA Mr Mpahlela has not integrated,he is in the PAC. MR VAN RENSBERG Is he a politician, stilla politician? MR FIHLA Yes, but he doesn't hold any postwithin the PAC. MR VAN RENSBERG MR FIHLA I did make an application for amnestyand it was turned down. MR VAN RENSBERG NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA No questions, Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, do you have anyre-examination? MR MBANDAZAYO None Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Judge Khampepe, do you have anyquestions? JUDGE KHAMPEPE No questions. CHAIRPERSON Adv Bosman? ADV BOSMAN No questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you General, that concludesyour testimony, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Mr Van Rensberg? MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON We could have the evidence nowif possible, thank you. MR VAN RENSBERG MR SWANEPOEL ... on the Ganula smallholdings. MR VAN RENSBERG All right, let us start,on the 27th of April 1993, APLA launched an attack on your farm, is that correct? MR SWANEPOEL It was the 28th of April 1993. MR VAN RENSBERG 28th of April, could youplease tell the Commission what happened from that morning when you got up? MR SWANEPOEL MR VAN RENSBERG So were shots fired fromoutside into the bedroom? MR SWANEPOEL Yes, one narrowly missed myleg by about 100 millimetres and went into the wardrobe and one missed my headby about 50 millimetres and went into the wall. MR VAN RENSBERG Did you then summon the Policeafter that? MR SWANEPOEL MR VAN RENSBERG Earlier today we heard evidencethat the applicants were of the opinion that your wife was actually busy summoninghelp by telephone, can you respond to that? MR SWANEPOEL There is no phone in the bedroomand I didn't also have a mobile phone. MR VAN RENSBERG At the time the shot wasfired which hit Mrs Swanepoel, was she armed? MR SWANEPOEL Yes, she had her pistol in herhand, there was only one round in the chamber. MR VAN RENSBERG The evidence thus far haspointed out that Mrs Swanepoel shot at the attackers? MR SWANEPOEL No, that could not have beenbecause I was actually between her and the attackers in the room, in the doorto the bedroom. MR VAN RENSBERG The evidence of Mr Thobejanewas that you locked yourself in the bedroom and that he couldn't open the doorand that is also contained in the affidavit which was handed in as ExhibitA, could you respond to that? MR SWANEPOEL MR VAN RENSBERG Do you know who it was whofired the shot at your wife? MR SWANEPOEL I think, I am assuming it wasthe man with the pistol because there was a cartridge, a bullet, the cartridgeof that, was found in the house. MR VAN RENSBERG So that must have been thedeceased Modau? MR SWANEPOEL Yes. MR VAN RENSBERG You have already said thatyou are a chicken farmer, what was in the safe at that stage, at the stage whenthe attack on your house was carried out? MR SWANEPOEL Weapons and cash. MR VAN RENSBERG What kind of weapons andhow much cash? MR SWANEPOEL I had three long rifles andabout R15 000 in cash. MR VAN RENSBERG Did you have the impressionthat the attackers had forced you into the bedroom? MR SWANEPOEL Yes, because the person hadpushed the pistol into my back and had led me to the room like that. MR VAN RENSBERG Please tell the Commissionwhat is your view as to why they did this? MR SWANEPOEL I can only imagine that theywanted to commit a robbery because if they wanted to kill me, why didn't theydo that earlier? MR VAN RENSBERG Were any words uttered byany of the attackers, did they say for instance that they were looking for weaponsor cash? MR SWANEPOEL No. MR VAN RENSBERG Was there anything whichhad prevented or would have prevented the attackers from killing you if thatwas their intention? MR SWANEPOEL MR VAN RENSBERG So, if I make the correctinference from your evidence, you agree with the finding of the Criminal Courtthat they were also guilty of an attempted robbery? MR SWANEPOEL Yes. MR VAN RENSBERG And it is largely as a resultof your evidence and the surrounding circumstances on the basis of which theCriminal Court came to such a finding? MR SWANEPOEL Yes. MR VAN RENSBERG You heard and it also appearsfrom the affidavits of specifically the first applicant and also his evidenceand also the other statements forming part of the Bundle, that the attackershad certain information that your home was the regular meeting point for rightwing people, people who had right wing political convictions in the first placeand secondly that you were a member of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging, AfrikanerResistance Movement and also that you didn't like black people, what do yousay about this? MR SWANEPOEL MR VAN RENSBERG Let's talk about the effectthat this attack had on your business, could you tell us? MR SWANEPOEL I had to cancel my order, thenext order of chickens immediately because I was alone and I had to make allthe arrangements for the funeral and everything and from then onwards, my salesjust declined because black people told me that they were now scared, afterwhat had happened and since then, my business actually plummeted by about half. MR VAN RENSBERG You actually suffered financialloss as a result of this? MR SWANEPOEL Yes. MR VAN RENSBERG At the time of the attack,did you still have children at school and in your care? MR SWANEPOEL Yes, I had a son who was instandard 9, he was at boarding school in Tzaneen. MR VAN RENSBERG Could you perhaps tell uswhat the effect was of wife's death on this son of yours? MR SWANEPOEL He blamed me, he blamed me fornot stopping these people, he was very close to his mother, he was the youngestchild still at home and that evening, he slit his wrists and two years later,also on the 28th of April, he took his own life. MR VAN RENSBERG Would one then be correctin inferring that your son could never actually deal with this attack? MR SWANEPOEL No, he never could. CHAIRPERSON Mr Swanepoel, would you liketo have a short break? MR SWANEPOEL It is all right. MR VAN RENSBERG MR SWANEPOEL MR VAN RENSBERG Do I understand you correctlyif you say that you don't believe that the only motivation for the attack onyourself as a target was as the applicants had testified, that it was purelyfor political reasons? MR SWANEPOEL No, I believe that. MR VAN RENSBERG Is there anything that youwould like to add to your evidence? MR SWANEPOEL MR VAN RENSBERG Is that information givento you by the Security Police? MR SWANEPOEL Yes. MR VAN RENSBERG Do you know this Mr JamesonBaloyi? MR SWANEPOEL No, not at all. MR VAN RENSBERG You heard the evidence beforethe Commission that Jameson Baloyi was one of the people who gave shelter tosome of the attackers? MR SWANEPOEL Yes. MR VAN RENSBERG What is your reaction tothat and what is your attitude towards Mr Baloyi's threat? MR SWANEPOEL One thing I can't understandis why has it never been mentioned in any case, if this man can utter such athreat and this is known the Police, I can't understand what would stop himfrom carrying this threat or his activities. MR VAN RENSBERG MR SWANEPOEL MR VAN RENSBERG You were present during thecriminal trial of the applicants after you had testified, is that correct? MR SWANEPOEL Yes. MR VAN RENSBERG MR SWANEPOEL MR VAN RENSBERG What is the inference thatyou draw from that? MR SWANEPOEL I say it wasn't politicallyinspired, it was murder and robbery. MR VAN RENSBERG Thank you Chair, no furtherquestions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON Do you have any cross-examinationMr Mbandazayo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO ADV BOSMAN Mr Swanepoel, Mr Mbandazayo isputting it to you that during the defence case they denied that they were everinvolved in this case and he asks whether you agree with that? MR SWANEPOEL With the attack that was launched? ADV BOSMAN MR SWANEPOEL In the first part, well thatdealt with their detention and how they had been assaulted, that is what thefirst part dealt with. ADV BOSMAN So you agree that it was onlyduring mitigation of sentence that they conceded that they had been involved? MR SWANEPOEL Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO MR SWANEPOEL Yes, I presume so. MR MBANDAZAYO MR SWANEPOEL Yes, there was no attempt, butwhat I was saying once they get amnesty and they are out, won't they carry onwith the act that they were busy with? MR MBANDAZAYO You have heard what they saidbefore the Committee, that what they did was politically motivated and thatnow they are part and parcel of the new dispensation and that the organisationto which they belong, which is part of the government and also APLA has integrated,is not that enough to allay your fears? MR SWANEPOEL No, not for me. MR MBANDAZAYO I have no further questionsChairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No questions Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Van Rensberg? MR VAN RENSBERG No questions, thank you MrChairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN RENSBERG No further evidence willbe led, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, have you got anysubmissions to make? MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Yes, because I think on the evidencebefore us, we are certainly not in a position to find that it was frequentedby right right-wingers, particularly in the light of Mr Swanepoel's evidencewho says he wasn't politically affiliated. MR MBANDAZAYO ADV BOSMAN Mr Mbandazayo, I think the questionis whether all of these discrepancies are of a material nature. MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON What you are saying is thesediscrepancies, none of them can lead one to deduce that the applicants wereplaying down any role that they might have played? MR MBANDAZAYO Exactly Chairperson, becauseit remains ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And you are saying if he wasarmed with the pistol and then said he was shot with an AK47, which was foundto be incorrect, then one could arrive at the conclusion that he intentionallymade that statement to protect or lessen his liability, but that is not thecase with these discrepancies? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON On both versions it seems clearthat the bullet was fired from a pistol and that Modau had the pistol? MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBERG IN ARGUMENT CHAIRPERSON It wouldn't have been a defence,would it? MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON I think what is quite clear,what must have happened at the trial was they first stated, from the answergiven by Mr Swanepoel, that they weren't there, they denied that they took partin the robbery? MR VAN RENSBERG Yes. CHAIRPERSON The whole first portion of thetrial up to conviction was relating to what seemed probably voluntary assaultsrelating to confessions and so they were then endeavouring not to get convicted,it is very common in very many criminal cases, I am sure you are aware of it,then as soon as they are convicted, they raise the political motivation? MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, that I have to concede. CHAIRPERSON In mitigation of sentence. MR VAN RENSBERG I have to concede, exceptto say that it, if they did raise the defence of political motivation, thatwould have perhaps cleared them on the charge of attempted robbery. JUDGE KHAMPEPE No, but if they had admittedto having committed any of the offences at all, because once you admit on theattempted robbery, then you've got to admit on the other offences as well, soif they had made any admission, they wouldn't have been able to escape criminalliability, don't you agree? MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, I agree with that, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So once they were convicted,they were left with no option but then to try in mitigation of sentence andcome out with the political nature of what they had now been convicted of. MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, I have to concede thatthat is a possibility, but the other possibility is of course that that factwas only dreamt up afterwards and it was put in their heads afterwards, afterthey had been convicted? JUDGE KHAMPEPE MR VAN RENSBERG Yes. CHAIRPERSON Also it gets, I suppose one couldwrite an article on it, but not knowing what the evidence was at that trial,a group of people go into a house armed with guns, shoot people, a person getskilled, they get arrested, they get charged with murder, attempted murder, attemptedrobbery, they get convicted of murder and attempted murder and attempted robbery,now what - if I am robbing you and I hit you over the head and take your wallet,I don't get convicted of assaulting you and of robbery, because the hittingover the head is part of the robbery. MR VAN RENSBERG Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now wasn't the whole attack onthe farmhouse, part of the robbery, in other words was that attempted robbery,is it not a type of duplication of charges? MR VAN RENSBERG Of conviction? ADV BOSMAN Mr Van Rensberg, I just want toadd this to what my two colleagues have said, if you look at the totality ofthe evidence, surely the fact that they had Chinese stick grenades, the natureof the weapons that they had with them and the evidence of Gen Fihla, if youlook at all that, surely that is certainly not inconsistent with the fact thatthey were political activists and if you accept that they were political activists,would you then still argue strongly that this defence or rather the facts raisedin mitigation, are not consistent ... MR VAN RENSBERG JUDGE KHAMPEPE MR VAN RENSBERG Well, at the time he wasat least harbouring and hiding these assailants which was an offence at thetime. JUDGE KHAMPEPE MR VAN RENSBERG JUDGE KHAMPEPE Isn't it included under "etc"? CHAIRPERSON No, it is not in 9. JUDGE KHAMPEPE MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON But he doesn't apply for attemptedrobbery? JUDGE KHAMPEPE He is not applying. MR VAN RENSBERG Yes, that is so. CHAIRPERSON I mean and when you questionedhim on it, he said that well, there wasn't any robbery, they never had any intentionetc, but my impression is well, he hasn't applied for it. MR VAN RENSBERG JUDGE KHAMPEPE That has nothing to do withthe acts for which amnesty is being sought for by the applicant, Mr Thobejane. MR VAN RENSBERG CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA Chairperson, I will leave thismatter in your hands. CHAIRPERSON Any reply Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO IN REPLY CHAIRPERSON MR MBANDAZAYO I am coming up to that point,others have put armed robbery. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO JUDGE KHAMPEPE MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON HEARING ADJOURNS