amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-07-15 THOHOYANDOU 3 MR MUDAU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53533&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99071214_tho_990714th.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mudau, what language would you prefer to use? MR MUDAU Chief Venda. CHAIRPERSON Very well, have you any objects to the taking of the oath? MR MUDAU No objection. PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mudau, you are also an applicant in this matter and you have signed an affidavit. If you look at the last page that there is a signature appearing thereon, is that your signature? MR MUDAU Yes, it's mine. MR NDOU Do you agree that this affidavit may be handed in as your evidence? MR MUDAU Yes, I agree. MR NDOU Is there anything that you wish to add to the affidavit? MR MUDAU No. MR NDOU That is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Is there anything you would like to amend in this affidavit? MR NDOU (Indistinct), we're satisfied, I've consulted with him, we're quite satisfied. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, the first two affidavits, is it not possible to rectify them in the meantime, that these Deponents can go the police station now to...(intervention) MR NDOU And have them stamped? CHAIRPERSON Whatever, you rectify - there are problems in it and I...(intervention) MR NDOU We'll definitely do so. CHAIRPERSON Well here, you had better take the...(intervention) MR NDOU Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou. MR NDOU Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON The Committee is in agreement that every page must also be initialled by the Commissioner of Oaths. I see Mudau's one is not...(intervention) MR NDOU Okay. CHAIRPERSON Or Rerani also. MR NDOU Oh, let me hand in the ones that have been - apparently they were skipping others, these ones have been done, like the one I have. ADV SIGODI The Commissioner of Oaths. CHAIRPERSON The Commissioner of Oaths. ADV SIGODI (Indistinct). CHAIRPERSON These have been done but the Commissioner of Oaths must also initial it. MR NDOU Okay. CHAIRPERSON Can't they do it with - is Rerani next? MR NDOU Yes. CHAIRPERSON The person that is going to run down to the police station better wait till these two are finished or whoever. Then while you are arguing, they can go see to this. Yes, Mr Van Rensburg? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Mudau, do you know what a petrol bomb is? MR MUDAU Yes, I know. MR VAN RENSBURG Is it not so that on the day that the deceased was killed, you were in possession of a petrol bomb? MR MUDAU Yes, I was having it. MR VAN RENSBURG I have no further questions to this witness, your worship, on the basis that the allegations as far as these pertain to his motivation for the attack on that day is at this stage still in dispute. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON I haven't had a chance to read these documents but has he conceded that he was in possession of a petrol bomb? MR VAN RENSBURG It was in fact one of the facts found during the criminal trial. CHAIRPERSON But I'm talking in his affidavit? MR VAN RENSBURG No. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you say in your affidavit that you were in possession of a petrol bomb? MR MUDAU I might have just left it out. CHAIRPERSON Not might, you did. I'm asking why. MR MUDAU Maybe I didn't think about it properly. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) whether you wanted to make any amendments or add anything, why didn't you then do that? MR MUDAU I didn't think about it. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) petrol bomb? MR MUDAU I threw that petrol bomb over the house. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR MUDAU It was on that day of the (indistinct). CHAIRPERSON Yes, why? Why did you throw it at the house? MR MUDAU I was burning the house. CHAIRPERSON There was no decision to do that, wasn't there? You went there with a petrol bomb. MR MUDAU It was by the time when the deceased was starting to fight with the people. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) to fetch a petrol bomb. MR MUDAU I don't know if people are in the know of what is a petrol bomb, can I be allowed to explain? CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) what a petrol bomb is. I know it for years. The point of the matter is all I'm asking you is on your way to the deceased's house, were you in possession of a petrol bomb or did you only go fetch it after you arrived there? MR MUDAU It was in my possession? CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) went there? MR MUDAU Yes. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct). MR MUDAU About 12h00. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) intend to do with this petrol bomb? MR MUDAU I was just having it. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) what? People don't carry petrol bombs for nothing. MR MUDAU It was just because something that I was used in holding it. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) you serious, don't talk nonsense to us. Why were you in possession of a petrol bomb? MR MUDAU I was suspected that maybe on our arrival there, after negotiating, if the deceased did not understand, then if a fight broke, then I will throw it in the house. CHAIRPERSON Now why are we suffering to get that kind of answer? It's a perfectly understandable answer that, instead of coming to tell me that you carry it because you're used to carrying petrol bombs. I've yet to see people carrying petrol bombs like they carry packets of sweets or money or knives. MR MUDAU I apologise for that. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) help your case when you say things like that. So you in particular knew there was a possibility and I must say you have come closest to the reality and probabilities. You knew that he was likely to resist and therefor you had this petrol bomb with you, just in case, correct? MR MUDAU Yes, it's correct. CHAIRPERSON And you foresaw the possibility that if that happens, he can die. Not so? MR MUDAU That didn't come to my mind. CHAIRPERSON Okay, but when they started throwing stones and you would throw the petrol bomb, it must have crossed your mind 'He can die now' not so? MR MUDAU Yes, the fight was now serious. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, did I ask you if you wanted to ask any questions? MS PATEL No, you didn't honourable Chairperson but, I don't, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou, do you have any re-examination? MR NDOU No, none. ADV SIGODI No questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED