amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-07-14 JOHANNESBURG 3 OF RESUMED HEARING ITHUMELENG JOHN DUBE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53538&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99071215_jhb_990714jh.htm CHAIRPERSON ... to the Ellis Park incident. The Committee and the legal advisors are all as before. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR WILLS Chairperson, I think where we'd got to on the last occasion was the completion of Mr Dumakude's application. There are no further witnesses in support of his application. I had exercised my right to re-examine the first two applicants, having waived in respect of Mr Shoke and having recalled Mr Matshididi. So that really is as far as Mr Dumakude is concerned. I thought it might be best if we dispose of the question of Mr Shoke. I'm not sure whether Mr Richard wants to recall him or not. Otherwise I presume we're in the hands of ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Dube. MR WILLS Mr Dube, indeed. CHAIRPERSON I have an idea Mr Richard indicated he didn't want to. MR RICHARD ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Very well, we'll now proceed with Mr Dube's application. MR RICHARD Chairperson, since yesterday I've had access to some of the police dockets and I've had an opportunity to firstly, prepare a bundle of understandable photographs and I would suggest I hand it in as exhibit - I think that would be Exhibit D. The last exhibit was the timing of the limpet mines. That was. I would like to just put it into the record that due to cost restraints, as it's colour copies, it was only practical to prepare one set of copies. CHAIRPERSON We are obliged to you for having prepared any, thank you. B was the vehicles, what was C? MR RICHARD C was the thing to do with the limpet mine, the table. The single sheet. CHAIRPERSON And D was the ...(intervention) MR RICHARD D is the statement of Zeelie. D is Zeelie, correct. CHAIRPERSON Now this is E. MR RICHARD Ja. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes, it should be E. CHAIRPERSON Yes, D is Zeelie's affidavit. MR RICHARD Correct. Then E is a scale - sorry, F, is a scale plan drawn by the South African Police immediately after the incident. CHAIRPERSON Is that the one we've had in various pieces? MR RICHARD Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR RICHARD Then G is an extract from the Beeld. I believe the 3rd of July - sorry, the 5th of July 1988, and then the Rapport photograph of the scene that afternoon. CHAIRPERSON H. MR RICHARD H. I have exhibited and displayed what I've handed in to Ms Cambanis and Mr van den Berg. CHAIRPERSON ... they want to look further, they can come and have a look. MS CAMBANIS We confirm that we have had access, thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Right. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Dube. He is here ready to be sworn in. ITHUMELENG JOHN DUBE (sworn states) MR KOOPEDI May we then proceed, Chairperson? ADV SANDI Your full names please, Mr Dube. Can you put that on record. MR DUBE Ithumeleng John Dube. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Mr Dube, is it correct that you are a co-applicant in this matter? MR DUBE Yes, that's correct. MR KOOPEDI Is it also correct that although you were not present during the first sitting of this hearing, you have familiarised yourself with those proceedings? MR DUBE Yes, I have. MR KOOPEDI Now is it also correct that you were a member of this unit and further that you were the second in command of this unit? MR DUBE Yes, that's correct. MR KOOPEDI Your co-applicant, the first one to testify, Harold Matshididi, has told this Honourable Committee that ...(end of side B of tape) MR KOOPEDI ... at Ellis Park stadium, is that correct? MR DUBE Yes, that's correct. MR KOOPEDI Let's quickly move to the events of Friday the 1st of July 1988. On this day, did you meet with any of your co-applicants? MR DUBE Yes it is true, we met, the four of us and we discussed about the operation, the Ellis Park operation. We agreed that we were supposed to go and do the reconnaissance on Friday. We left for Ellis Park stadium, we did the reconnaissance, the four of us. MR KOOPEDI What happened after the reconnaissance? MR DUBE We went back to Diepkloof. We agreed on a certain time to meet each other the next day or the following day. MR KOOPEDI Okay. The following day. There is evidence before this Honourable Committee that you were present in the morning when the gas cylinder's, clock battery, car battery, were purchased downtown, Johannesburg and thereafter that you all returned to Diepkloof. Is that correct? MR DUBE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now let's get to the stage when the bomb was being assembled. Where were you and what was your role, if any? MR DUBE As I've already explained, we discussed about this. The commander, Dumakude said myself and Shoke, we must be security. As they were busy preparing the car bomb, we were supposed to secure and to make sure that they are safe. That was the part I took on that day in Diepkloof. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now two vehicles were used to carry out this operation, in which vehicle were you? MR DUBE I was in a kombi which was driven by Mr Shoke. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Briefly explain how this operation was carried out and in particular your role. MR DUBE What happened on Saturday the 2nd of July, we were the escort - we, the members who were in the kombi, we were escorting the BMW which had a bomb. Matshididi and Dumakude were in the BMW. When we arrived at Ellis Park, we parked both cars. I was left inside the car. The three of them left, they went to do their final reconnaissance. The reason I was left behind was because I was supposed to guard the car which had the explosives. This was nearby Ellis Park, not closer. I think it was near the place where newspapers are sold. MR KOOPEDI After your co-applicants had gone for that final reconnaissance, did they come back? And if they did, what happened? MR DUBE They came back, the three of them. Myself and Shoke, we boarded the kombi. They took the BMW to go and park it. We went to the Checkers because we agreed that we were going to meet there after they've left the car with the bomb. MR KOOPEDI And what happened while you were at Checkers? Did anything happen? Did they come back, what happened? MR DUBE We waited for them. After minutes I heard an explosion. I couldn't see them at that time. I don't remember how long it took, but I think it was after 10 to 15 minutes - or, after 10 to 15 minutes, that's when I only saw them. After 10 to 15 minutes the explosion went off. That is when I saw them. Then they came to the car, we went to Diepkloof. MR KOOPEDI No inasfar as this application is concerned, are you satisfied that you have fully disclosed all the material facts to this Honourable Committee? MR DUBE Everything I have said it's according to my knowledge and the role which I took. Whatever I've remembered I've said and I am satisfied. MR KOOPEDI Now do you think this action was politically motivated? MR DUBE Yes, it was politically motivated. I would like to explain further why I'm saying so. As I've already mentioned before, that we discussed about this operation and the importance. We wanted to send a message, more especially we wanted to send a message to the white people of the country. We wanted them to know that we need their participation, we needed them to do something because they were the ones who were voting for the previous government and the government survived because of them. MR KOOPEDI Now did you benefit anything financially from this operation? MR DUBE What we were doing, we were not doing it to benefit financially. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that concludes the evidence-in-chief of this applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Cambanis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Mr Dube, do you confirm the commander, Mr Dumakude's evidence that Mr Shoke and Mr Matshididi can best be described as foot-soldiers of the unit, who were obliged to follow the orders of the commander, namely Mr Dumakude? MR DUBE Yes, it is true. MS CAMBANIS And when the instruction was given regarding Ellis Park, is it correct that they would have understood this operation to be in line with MK and ANC policy? MR DUBE Yes, it is so because we discussed about this, myself and Dumakude, and then that's when we informed the two. I explained to them why we needed to do that operation. MS CAMBANIS And is it also correct that it was discussed that civilian, that deaths should be avoided as far as possible? MR DUBE Yes, it is true, we did explain that we were going to try and avoid killing of the civilians. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Dube, in a general situation where Mr Dumakude was not present, who was in charge of the unit? MR DUBE Myself. MR VAN DEN BERG And to whom did you have to report in respect of the activities of the unit? MR DUBE My immediate commander was Dumakude, but we had a chain of command. There were other people whom I would report to them, if Mr Dumakude was out of reach. MR VAN DEN BERG And is it correct that your reporting structure was through the subordinate command in Botswana? MR DUBE Yes, it is so. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG MR RICHARD Mr Dube, when you say on that Friday "us", was that all four of you? That was Mr Dumakude, you, Mr Shoke and Mr Matshididi. - went down to Ellis Park. MR DUBE Yes, I said so, I meant the four of us. MR RICHARD Now for how long had this cell, this unit, been in existence, of the four of you - the three of you, sorry. MR DUBE I would like to explain that Dumakude came to join us because he had specific instructions. The other comrade, if I'm not making a mistake I think I met them in January 1988. MR RICHARD So you formed this particular cell in 1988, is that your answer? MR DUBE I'm referring to the three of us, myself, Shoke and Matshididi. MR RICHARD Now you heard Mr Dumakude's evidence yesterday that he was in contact with you, how often was he in contact with you, between January and July? MR DUBE I was in contact with Mr Dumakude while he was in Botswana. Inside the country we contacted each other in June. MR RICHARD Now when did Mr Dumakude first discuss the plan of this bomb with you, was it that week, some weeks before? MR DUBE I wouldn't like to put the time because I would be making a mistake. I think it was in June, but I don't remember when. MR RICHARD Now what did Mr Dumakude say to you about this plan? Tell us what his plan was. MR DUBE What he said to me is that we were supposed to do another mission. I asked him as to what mission and he explained to me that the Ellis Stadium operation. Then we talked about that. He didn't come to me and issue an order, we discussed about this, both of us. MR RICHARD Now when you discussed, what did you discuss? MR DUBE We were discussing things about how to conduct the operation to make sure that we are not going to hurt innocent civilians. We didn't want to injure or kill civilians. We wanted to take precautions as to avoid the killing or the injuring of civilians. MR RICHARD Now what precautions did you discuss taking? MR DUBE The first precaution we considered was as to the time. We wanted to make sure that we were going to explode that bomb in a certain time whereby we will avoid the injuring of innocent people. MR RICHARD Now what time was that that you discussed? MR RICHARD We also discussed about the direction of charges. MR RICHARD Now what time did you discuss letting off the bomb? MR DUBE We agreed on 5 o'clock. MR RICHARD Why did you choose precisely 5 o'clock? MR DUBE The reason we chose 5 o'clock, it was because we knew that at that time the game will be still on and the people will be still inside the stadium before they leave the stadium. We wanted the bomb to explode before ...(intervention) MR RICHARD Chair, may I request another set of earphones, I've got that pair which disappears and fades out. Thank you. On what basis did you work out 5 o'clock ...(indistinct) a time when the game would still be on? How did you come to that opinion? MR DUBE We knew that usually the games they finish just before 5 o'clock. That's why we ...(break in sound) MR RICHARD You knew games finished just before 5 o'clock, how did you find that piece of information out? MR DUBE We gathered the information that 5 o'clock the game will be still on. That's why we decided to explode the bomb before - I mean at 5 o'clock, because we gathered the information that the game will be still on at that time. MR RICHARD How did you gather that information? From where did you get the information? MR DUBE What I did personally myself, I made a research myself as to - from the newspapers to check what time the rugby matches usually start and what time they usually they finish. MR RICHARD So you were fully aware that - as you've heard various witnesses say, that rugby matches end more-or-less at 5 o'clock. Is that your answer? MR DUBE No, I didn't say that, you are saying so. What I'm saying is that we chose 5 o'clock because we knew that the game will be still on at that time, therefore people won't be outside. This is what I said. MR RICHARD Now tell me, where was the equipment to make the bomb stored, where did you get it from? MR DUBE I would like you to explain as to what you're talking about when you say where did we put the equipment. I don't understand there. MR RICHARD We know from yesterday's evidence, that many, at least more than tow limpet mines were put in the boot, together with explosives, together with the gas bottles. We know where the gas bottles were got, but where did you keep and store the limpet mines and the explosives? MR DUBE From what I remember, it's that comrade Dumakude had hidden them in a certain base. I don't know where in Diepkloof, but he had them or he hid them. MR RICHARD We know that you assembled the bomb that day, did you have to go and fetch the ingredients or were they all at the same place? MR DUBE You are referring to two different things. The material which we were going to use we fetched them before, then batteries and the gas were bought on Saturday. The reason we brought the material before the gas and the battery, we wanted to test as to if they were going to work. MR RICHARD Right. That is the ingredient that I'm talking about, the explosives and the limpet mines. Who fetched them, did you fetch them from wherever they were? MR DUBE We were all together. MR RICHARD How many limpet mines were there? MR DUBE I will be lying if I give you a number, I don't remember. MR RICHARD Were they in a box or were they loose? MR DUBE I do not remember very well. MR RICHARD Did you see them? MR DUBE I think I said before, we were testing them if they were still usable, therefore I saw them. MR RICHARD Where did you see them? At the place you'd manufactured and assembled the bomb, or somewhere else? MR DUBE I said they were fetched before. It was a week. I don't remember a day precisely, but they were fetched and they were tested. MR RICHARD How did you test them? MR DUBE For instance when one fetched a limpet mine from a DLB, there is a possibility that it is no longer usable and also we were checking the electrical detonator, if they were still usable. To check on things like whether they were not - have been eaten by worms. MR RICHARD Now while the bomb was being put together, where would - you were standing watch. How far away from the car where the bomb was being assembled were you? MR DUBE I don't remember the distance, but I was a little bit further away from them, but I could see them. MR RICHARD Could you see what they were doing? MR DUBE As I've already mentioned that I was a little bit further away from them, I couldn't see exactly as to what they were doing, but I could see them. MR RICHARD How long did they take to assemble the bomb? MR DUBE No, I do not remember. MR RICHARD However, you were aware of what was going into the bomb because there were those three ingredients, the gas cylinders, the explosives and the limpet mines. MR DUBE Yes, it is true, I knew exactly the ingredients and I knew what they were doing. MR RICHARD Now did you ever receive any explosives training? MR DUBE Yes, it is true. MR RICHARD Did you know how to assemble the car bomb yourself? MR DUBE Yes, it is true. MR RICHARD So at the time when it was being assembled, it's true to say you knew it was going to be a big bomb. MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD Now where I'm still not quite clear is, where were you exactly when the bomb went off? Were you at the Checkers already or still getting there? MR DUBE When the bomb exploded I was inside the car, I was with Mr Shoke, in front of the Checkers at Hillbrow. This is the place where we said we were going to meet, all of us. MR RICHARD Now if I understand you correctly, and please forgive me if I'm wrong, you had driven Mr Shoke from the place where the newspapers were sold, to Checkers. Did you go directly there, without stopping? MR DUBE Yes, we had agreed, we planned this, that me and Mr Shoke were going to drive to Checkers. MR RICHARD How long did it take you? MR DUBE I do not remember, but it was a very few minutes. You see I will have a problem if you ask me about time, because I don't remember very well about the minutes, but I know that we've taken a few minutes. MR RICHARD So then - who was with you when you heard the bomb go off? MR DUBE I think I've already mentioned that I was with Mr Shoke. MR RICHARD And no-one else was with you then? MR DUBE I will repeat again. I was with Mr Shoke. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now was that at precisely 5 o'clock or a little before or a little after, when you heard the bang? MR DUBE What was in my mind at that time, I was worried because I couldn't see Dumakude and Matshididi. This was worrying me, this was the first thing in my mind. Therefore, I didn't look at the time, because I was worried about these two. MR RICHARD Why were you worried? MR DUBE Since I wasn't seeing them in my mind, I was hoping that the bomb didn't explode before they could leave the car. I was worried about them, that they are safe, or their safety. MR RICHARD Did you wear a watch at the time? MR DUBE No, I didn't have a watch. MR RICHARD Were you aware that 5 o'clock had come and gone and the bomb hadn't gone off? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, this witness has just said he didn't have a watch, I fail to see how he could have been aware that 5 o'clock had come. CHAIRPERSON Lot's of cars have clocks in them. MR RICHARD Were you aware that 5 o'clock had come and gone and the bomb hadn't gone off? MR DUBE What I knew is that the bomb was supposed to explode at 5 o'clock. This is the only think I knew. I only knew that it was supposed to go off at 5 o'clock. MR RICHARD Now was there a radio or a clock in your car, in the kombi? MR DUBE Yes, the radio was there, but I do not remember if the watch was there and if it was working because I just didn't consider looking at the watch. MR RICHARD Were you listening to the radio? MR DUBE Usually in operations like this when your partners are not with you, some things you just do not care about, what's in your mind is the safety and the security of your partners. I'm trying to say I didn't take notice whether I was listening to a radio or whatever I was. In my mind the only thing which was there was my partners who were still missing. MR RICHARD Very well. Now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But wouldn't it have been very helpful to listen to the report on the radio about the match, and you would have immediately heard if the bomb went off early or if it had gone ...? MR DUBE Where we were one could hear the noise from the stadium, you could tell that the game was still on. That I do remember. MR RICHARD Now when you were guarding the car with the bomb in it down the road, what did you have with you to assist you guarding? Were you armed or did you have any weapons with you? MR DUBE Let me ask, when you said when we were guarding, where are you referring? Do you mean at Diepkloof or Ellis Park? MR RICHARD At Ellis Park, near where the papers were sold. MR DUBE I think I did mention that I was the only one who was guarding the car and I was not armed. MR RICHARD Now how would you have controlled the direction of the explosion, what would you have done to make it directional, as opposed to random? MR DUBE I would like you to repeat the question, it is not clear to me. MR RICHARD You said you discussed it with Mr Dumakude that you would take steps to minimise damage and you discussed the direction that the bomb would go off, is that not what you said? MR DUBE Yes, I do remember that. MR RICHARD Now in what way would you control the direction that the bomb went off? What did you do to do that? You said you know explosives. MR DUBE From what Mr Dumakude and myself had discussed, we said the bomb - the direction in which the explosion should go, should be downwards rather than the sides because if we wanted to kill people, we would have taken the car or we would have driven the car inside the stadium. We would have taken the car where many civilians were, but we didn't want that, we took the car to a place where there were no many people and the direction was actually directed to go downwards. MR RICHARD I'm going to show to you a picture of the car after it was blown up. You will agree that the bomb completely disintegrated the car? It's a new one. Do you agree with my statement? I hand in the - it will be Exhibit ... - Mr Dube, you've seen the picture, do you agree that the bomb was totally destroyed - the car was totally destroyed by the bomb? MR DUBE Yes, it is true. MR RICHARD Did you expect that to happen? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, may I intervene at this stage. This picture that has been shown to the applicant, it's indeed true it's a new one. I believe we've all not seen it. I also notice that it is not part of the bundle, it's also not part of what we conceded to as being you know, something admissible in terms of damage to property. It is headed "John Vorster Plein - MR1745/6/88" I imagine that would be the case number. And if you look at the documents that we have here, we have a different MR number, it's MR47 and it's of the 7th month, not the 6th month of 1988, and it's from GP(?). All the documents we're dealing with are from the GP Police Station and this is labelled John Vorster Square. I am not sure where my learned friend got this, and I would rather have a situation where you know, the value of these pictures are discussed before they are put to witnesses and that we should all have an opportunity to look at them before they are brought there, otherwise we are going to waste a lot of time unnecessarily. MR RICHARD ...(indistinct) I will deal with another picture, picture number 11, which is part of the bundle. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR RICHARD It was one of the pictures, numerous pictures in the police docket. Did you expect the car to be blown up in that manner, Mr Dube? MR DUBE Yes. MR KOOPEDI This picture number 11, could you tell us where in the bundle that picture is? MR RICHARD Page 59. MR KOOPEDI I would ask my learned friend to repeat his question, I missed it also. MR RICHARD I had the witness look at picture number 11, which is at page 59 of the bundle papers, at the top, and my question was, did you expect the bomb to have that affect on the motor car and his answer was yes. MR KOOPEDI I would ask clarity on which motor car were you referring to? MR RICHARD The BMW. MR KOOPEDI I hope my learned friend is also aware that the car on picture 11 is not the BMW, it's in fact a Tredia. MR RICHARD ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct). Sorry. If you are interested in the photograph that you handed in, which was objected to, the top photograph appears to be almost identical to photograph number 6 in the bundle. MR RICHARD It does, Chairperson. Well then I would refer to page 56, the bottom photograph 6. Nonetheless I'm going to exhibit that page of the bundle, page 56, photograph 6 and I'll ask the same question, Mr Dube. Did you expect the bomb to have that affect on any motorcar, whichever motorcar it is? MR DUBE I will answer this question this way. When there is an explosion there are damages nearby because there are shockwaves as well, which are caused by the explosion. MR RICHARD So you expected the car to blow up, the car with the bomb in it. MR DUBE Yes, I've already answered you. MR RICHARD And where would the pieces of car go? MR DUBE As I've already explained, that whenever there's an explosion there will be flying pieces nearby. MR RICHARD And what would happen to the gas in the canisters? The gas bottles. MR DUBE First of all the reason one put a gas is for the fact that you want the sound of the blast to be louder. MR RICHARD Would the gas catch fire or do nothing? What would the gas do? MR DUBE There will be a loud sound. There will be a blast and sometimes there would be a fire and sometimes there won't be a fire. MR RICHARD Are you aware that of the injuries the two deceased in this matter suffered were severe burns to the point where they were unrecognisable as male or female, according to the post-mortem report? One of the documents in the bundle. MR DUBE I didn't see the, but I read about this on the newspapers. MR RICHARD Did you foresee that that might happen? MR DUBE I would like you to repeat your question. MR RICHARD What do you think would happen to anybody who is ..(end of side A of tape) MR DUBE ... as I've already mentioned that our aim was not to injure or to kill anyone. MR RICHARD ...(indistinct). Amongst the other people that you reported to in your chain of command, besides Mr Dumakude, can you give us a couple of names? Who else did you report to, who else did you take instructions from? MR KOOPEDI About what if I may ask? Through you Chairperson. MR RICHARD About MK activities and operations. MR DUBE I did explain that comrade Dumakude was my immediate commander. I was taking orders from him and also I would simply report to the chain of commanders in Botswana, the ...(indistinct) staff in Botswana. MR RICHARD Now if I understand it correctly, Mr Dumakude was your immediate commander and you would report to him, but sometimes he would not be available. Who else would you report to? MR DUBE There was comrade Vuss. MR RICHARD What is Vuss' proper name? MR DUBE I do not know. MR RICHARD And any others? MR DUBE There was also comrade Difo in Botswana. ADV SANDI Sorry, I did not get the name, what was the name? Lefu? MR DUBE Difo. MR RICHARD Why in the last hearing where I cross-examined you, did you say that comrade Hein Grosskopf was a person to whom you reported? MR DUBE If you remember very well, I told you that I reported to him when I was in Lusaka and he was also in Lusaka, but now I'm referring about incidents when I was in South Africa and he was back in Lusaka. MR RICHARD My last proposition and then I conclude. It's in that hearing I understood that your chain of command was such that you had to report to Mr Grosskopf, not to Mr Dumakude. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, this witness has just explained that he would have reported to Grosskopf if he was in Lusaka, if he was in South Africa or in Botswana, he would report to the other people. CHAIRPERSON As I understand the evidence, and please correct me, Mr Dumakude only came along to certain special operations and when he came he would be in charge of that operation, but he was not part of your normal chain of command. Is that correct? MR DUBE I am not clear there, would you please repeat that, clarify that for me. CHAIRPERSON As I understood, Mr Dumakude was in charge of special operations, that he would come to South Africa to form a special operation, he would then go back. He was not part of the normal chain of command for people in Diepkloof to report to, all their ordinary reports. MR DUBE Yes, I will say that as well. MR RICHARD I don't believe I have any further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD ADV PRIOR I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR ADV SANDI No questions, Chair. DR TSOTSI Mr Dube, did I understand you to say that you had no intention of killing people and if you had had that intention, you would have driven the car with the bomb into the stadium, to the Ellis stadium. Is that correct? MR DUBE Yes, it is so. DR TSOTSI In actual fact, would you have been able to drive a car into the stadium, in view of the fact that there's surveillance by the Security Police? Do you think that you would have a way of getting the car into the stadium? In the circumstances. MR DUBE Yes, we would have tried and I think we would have succeeded. DR TSOTSI Yes. Was the only method by which you could destroy, kill, civilians? We had this case of the Johannesburg, this application for the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court and there the evidence was that in order to attract the police the idea was to kill as many policemen as possible. In order to effect that purpose a small limpet mine was detonated close to where the main bomb was in order to attract the police to come because they would come and cordon off the place and then when they were there, the main bomb was exploded, killing several ...(indistinct). Couldn't something like that have been used in this case? I mean, if you wanted to kill as many people as possible, could that have been used, or something similar to that? That is detonating a limpet mine in order to attract the police or the people ...(intervention) MR DUBE Yes, it is so. DR TSOTSI Right. You know about that operation? The Johannesburg Magistrates Court operation. You were not involved in that were you? MR DUBE I read about it in the newspapers. DR TSOTSI So do you still say that your intention was not to kill civilians when you ... MR DUBE Yes, our aim was not to kill innocent civilians. DR TSOTSI But did you foresee a possibility of some civilians being killed? What I'm trying to - yes go on. MR DUBE Maybe I need to say this. Most of the time, no matter how much precautions one takes, when you're going to use explosives there is a possibility that there will be people injured in that place. I don't deny that. There is that possibility that one or two people will be injured whenever one uses explosives. CHAIRPERSON There are two matters I would like to ask you about. The first is, if you were determined not to kill anyone, why was the bomb timed to go off at the time the match ended? MR DUBE What I've already explained here is that what we knew was that the bomb was going to explode before the game could finish, because we thought that the game was still on at that time. And as I've already explained, when I heard the explosion while I was waiting outside the Checkers, I could hear the loud noise from the stadium that the game was still on. CHAIRPERSON That is contrary to a lot of evidence we have heard from other witnesses. You say when you heard the explosion outside Checkers, you could hear that the game was still on. Is that what you have just said? MR DUBE What I'm saying is that while I was waiting outside the Checkers I could hear that the game was still on, even the time when I heard the explosion. This is my recollection now, that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That the game was still on? MR DUBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON But why not set the bomb to go off half an hour before the game was due to end? I mean, everybody would have been safely sitting in the stadium, nobody would have come out early to get their cars to get away. MR DUBE I would like to explain this, that according to our plan, we chose 5 o'clock, that it will be before the game was over and we agreed about this, Mr Dumakude and the rest of us. CHAIRPERSON You see if you'd made proper enquiries you would have discovered that the game was supposed to finish at five minutes to five. It started at three thirty, it's forty minutes each way and a five minute interval. MR DUBE As I've already explained that we did everything according to our plan and we thought that at 5 o'clock the game would be still on, therefore the bomb was supposed to explode at five. CHAIRPERSON But you must have known that it would have been the dying minutes of the game if it was still on at five, if you had taken any trouble to check times as you say you did. MR DUBE As I've already explained that I tried my best, I bought newspapers, I read about rugby games and I discovered that normally 5 o'clock the game is still on, the rugby game. CHAIRPERSON Well I don't know where you discovered that, Mr Dube, because it is not correct. You can give no other explanation as to why you chose this time, 5 o'clock, rather than an earlier time? MR DUBE The first thing I've mentioned is that we had a commander and he was giving us orders, we agreed on a certain time, I tried my best to buy newspapers and I read and I discovered or I found out that at 5 o'clock the rugby game is still on. This is another information which I brought to the group when we were discussing about the plan of the operation. CHAIRPERSON But it was still - if you had discovered anything, you would have discovered that was the end of the game. If you were so determined not to injure any innocent people, why not give yourself a larger time margin? MR DUBE I've already explained that we were doing everything according to your plan. The reason we wanted to explode the bomb at 5 o'clock is because we thought the game would be still on at that time. ADV SANDI Mr Dube, just explain this. You say you were reading from newspapers about rugby games that were going to be taking place, but did they say exactly on this day what time that particular game was going to come to an end? MR DUBE I was doing my own research as to find out usually what time do the rugby games start and finish, not specifically about the game, the big game we are talking about today. CHAIRPERSON My impression is there was some advertisement in one of these volumes about the game. MR RICHARD ...(microphone not on). ADV SANDI Could you not get the information about this particular - the game on this particular day at Ellis Park, could you not get that information? MR DUBE About the Ellis Park game, the specific game, I don't remember very well. I think some of my co-applicants tried and found out more information about that, but what I did was to research more about rugby games. ADV SANDI These rugby games you were reading about from the newspapers, where did they take place, also at Ellis Park? MR DUBE I was reading the newspapers, mainly rugby games, not specifically Ellis Park, but all rugby games. ADV SANDI Were you able to get any information about Ellis Park rugby games, what time they finished? MR DUBE This happened a long time ago and I have a problem now, I will find myself putting myself in a very difficult position. I will mix facts because it happened a long time ago and I wouldn't be sure if I'm answering the question whether I'm answering it appropriate or referring to another incident. This is what I can say so far. ADV SANDI But in any case, do you accept as of today that the information you had that by 5 o'clock the game would still be carrying on, that information was incorrect? Do you accept that? MR DUBE It is difficult for me to comment about this and today when I'm giving testimony about what I heard and what I've seen I said I was parked outside Checkers and from that distance I could hear the noise, the loud noise coming from the stadium and also I could hear the bomb exploding. ADV SANDI Thank you. DR TSOTSI Are you sure you didn't hear the noise after the explosion? Because there must have been noise after the explosion. MR DUBE I heard the noise before the explosion. ADV SANDI But are you not saying even after the explosion there was still a noise from the - where was this noise from? MR DUBE Would you please repeat your question. ADV SANDI Did you say even after the explosion there was still a noise, where was this noise coming from? MR DUBE I didn't say that. ADV SANDI Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-exam, Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ...(indistinct) MR KOOPEDI That will be the case for the applicant, we're calling no other witnesses, Chairperson, thank you. ADV PRIOR Well that concludes the evidence unless there's anything else. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, there is just one aspect. I've been handed a letter to deliver to you. It's self-explanatory. Unfortunately it was not closed, so I had the liberty to look at it. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps I should read it into the record. It is on paper headed: "African National Congress - Secretary-General's Office", addressed to me at the Amnesty Committee, JISS Centre, Mayfair "Dear Judge Wilson, ELLIS PARK STADIUM CAR BOMB AMNESTY APPLICATION It has been brought to our attention that the ANC, in its written submissions to the TRC, did not in unambiguous terms acknowledge the Ellis Park car bomb as an ANC operation. In the written submission, we only stated that the details about this operation will be contained in the amnesty application of the applicants who are now before you. After thorough consultation and research, we are satisfied that the Ellis Park Stadium car bomb explosion on the 2nd of July 1988, was an ANC operation carried out by the MK members who are now before you. We regret this late acknowledgement, but we hope it will assist you and your fellow Committee Members in your deliberations. Yours faithfully, Signed: KAGALEMA MOHLANHLA SECRETARY-GENERAL" If any of you wish to see it, I have it available, copies could be made. ADV PRIOR Yes, we accept that that is written, but my concern is what weight or what status does it have, or what weight can it have. CHAIRPERSON If you wish to make any enquiries, Mr Prior, you're at liberty to do so. I think the time has come to adjourn for the day in any event. ADV PRIOR I'd hate for it to be innovated to a status and argument, which it does not have. CHAIRPERSON Then enquiries can be made as to whether the gentleman who wrote it is prepared to come and give evidence before us tomorrow morning, or that someone will do so. ADV PRIOR Yes. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I see it's close to the end of the day and possibly we can - in any event, we intended to argue the matter. It will have to stand over till tomorrow in any event. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock? MS CAMBANIS That is fine. CHAIRPERSON 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS