amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-07-20 PRETORIA 7 THABELO JOHANNES MBELO AM3785/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53551&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99071923_pre_990720pt.htm ON RESUMPTION MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, it appears that Mr Williams has lost his client along the way. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Mbelo going to be called next? MR WILLIAMS That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I wonder if you wouldn't mind just stepping down and just see if you can see him perhaps, Mr Williams, he might be standing in the front, soaking in some sun or something like that. MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, Mr Lamey has also just gone in search for Christopher Mosiane. Chairperson, just for the record again, Simon Radebe, that is the other last applicant, he won't be testifying today because he had undergone an eye operation, and he was supposed to be here but Adv Hattingh informed me that he will be here tomorrow morning. MR HATTINGH He was in fact here Mr Chairman, but he is not feeling very well, he's got pain in his eyes and I asked him, told him that we probably wouldn't reach him today on the assumption that we have Mr Mbelo and Mosiane and Mr Pienaar and ... CHAIRPERSON That is a reasonable assumption. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT Please stand. MR WILLIAMS Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Mbelo will testify in Tswana. MR MBELO Chairperson, I apologise for wasting time, it is because of the situation. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Mbelo. THABELO JOHANNES MBELO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS Thank you. On what channel is the translation? INTERPRETER Channel 3, Tswana is on channel 3. MR WILLIAMS Thank you, Mr Mbelo, do you confirm your amnesty application as set out in Bundle 1(c) starting on page 640 and ending on page 657? MR MBELO I do. MR WILLIAMS Do you wish to have those portions incorporated into your testimony? MR MBELO Yes, that is correct. MR WILLIAMS Mr Chairman, Mr Mbelo is complaining he cannot pick up the translation. CHAIRPERSON Can you just check his channel, it should be on number 3, is it? Channel 4? MR MBELO I think we finally can start now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR WILLIAMS Thank you Mr Chairman. Is it correct that you are applying for amnesty for the abduction and torture of Japie Maponya as well as for whatever offences may be inferred from the facts on which you base your application? Is that correct? MR MBELO That is correct. MR WILLIAMS Do you confirm that you, Almond Nofemela and Mr Nzimande abducted Mr Japie Maponya as he left his work on the 25th of September 1985? MR MBELO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, was it the 24th or the 25th? MR WILLIAMS The 25th. CHAIRPERSON The 25th? MR WILLIAMS Do you also confirm that you took part in the assault on Mr Maponya at Vlakplaas? MR MBELO That is correct. MR WILLIAMS Is it correct that you received an order to that effect, in other words you received an order that you must participate in the abduction and questioning and assault of Mr Maponya? MR MBELO That is correct. MR WILLIAMS And the purpose of this mission would be to obtain information regarding the whereabouts of the brother of Mr Japie Maponya, namely Oderele Maponya? MR MBELO That is correct. MR WILLIAMS Now on page 654, paragraph 12, you indicated that Warrant Officer Nortje gave the instructions, are you one hundred percent certain that he was the person who ordered you? MR MBELO It may be him, but I don't remember well as to whether it was him or somebody. MR WILLIAMS Is it possible that it could have been Mr De Kock or even Mr Nofemela who relayed instructions to you? MR MBELO As I have already stated that I don't remember well, it may be one of them. MR WILLIAMS At the trial of Mr De Kock you also testified that Mr Nortje was the one who gave you the orders, can you explain to the Committee why were you under the, or why did you give testimony to that effect? MR MBELO It is because of the month when we were in Josini, my leader in that month was Mr Nortje. MR WILLIAMS Is it correct that you don't have a clear recollection of who exactly gave you the order, but you infer from the fact that Mr Nortje was your Team Leader, that he was the one who gave you the specific instruction? MR MBELO Yes, that is correct. MR WILLIAMS Now, is it correct that in respect of certain minor details, you differ from Mr Nofemela's account of events, for example Mr Nofemela in the Bundle says that you were the person who drove the vehicle, whereas you in fact in your statement say that Mr Nofemela drove the vehicle; Mr Nofemela says that you possessed a photo of Japie, you again say that you had a photo of Oderele; Mr Nofemela says that Mr Maponya climbed into the car out of his own accord without being forced, you in turn say that a measure of force was used. To what do you ascribe these minor differences and accounts? MR MBELO I think that is where I am able to remember the incident, because those things happened 14 years back. Some of the details maybe slipped my mind, or I did not see them. That is why we differ, I am not telling I am telling the truth or he is not telling the truth because one of us may have forgotten some of the details. MR WILLIAMS Yes, I heard the Translator saying that you are not saying that you are not telling the truth or Mr Nofemela is not telling the truth, is that in fact correct what you have just said? MR MBELO I am not saying that Nofemela is not telling the truth or he is mistaken, and I am not saying that I am mistaken or not telling the truth. We would differ here and there, but one would say that Nofemela is telling the truth or I am not telling the truth. CHAIRPERSON What you are trying to say Mr Mbelo is that you are not consciously not telling the truth? As far as you are concerned, the version that you have given is the correct version, although you concede that you might have been mistaken in regard to certain details, but you are not purposely telling lies? MR MBELO That is correct Chairperson, that is not my intention to lie. MR WILLIAMS Would you then concede that in those respects where you differ from Mr Nofemela, it could be that his version can be correct or it could be that your version can be correct on those facts, either one could be making a mistake? MR MBELO I do. MR WILLIAMS And then, Mr Mbelo, with regard to - did you ever receive reward money for this particular incident? MR MBELO I did not Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS And then just the very last point, do you remember that I canvassed the possibility with you as to whether or not we should amend your application to include murder or accessory to murder and that you indicated to me that you do not wish us, that we amend our application. Can you explain to the Committee why that is your view? MR MBELO The reason to tell my legal Counsel not to add on my application is because I was not present during the meetings where the decision to kill, was made. I testified to that, that Japie Maponya was killed, and I was not present. MR WILLIAMS But did you not foresee the possibility that once Mr Maponya was taken to Vlakplaas, that he could be killed there at the farm? MR MBELO At that time, I did not see that possibility. MR WILLIAMS Can you explain to the Committee why you did not foresee that possibility, given the nature of Vlakplaas itself? MR MBELO It is because there were people who were brought and they were interrogated, and then they were returned alive in those years, which I worked in Vlakplaas. MR WILLIAMS Would you say that the fact that Japie himself was not a trained guerrilla at that stage, played any role in your belief at that stage, that he would not be guilty? MR MBELO According to me, I did not regard Japie as a trained MK because he told us when we interrogated him, that he did not know anything about those questions we were asking him. MR WILLIAMS Were there instances in the past where people were taken to Vlakplaas, tortured but not killed? MR MBELO Yes, that is correct. MR WILLIAMS Can you recall names of people who fit in this category? MR MBELO I am not able to remember their identity, but I remember those incidents. MR WILLIAMS That was in fact confirmed by two other applicants as well, not so? MR MBELO Yes, I heard them testify. MR WILLIAMS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Williams. Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbelo, when you were sent to Josini, did you think that you were going to have to be there for some three weeks or so? MR MBELO Usually we would go out for three weeks to four weeks and even on that particular day, we thought that we would be staying for that duration. MR HATTINGH You were not told that you were going to come back on the 25th, before you left for Josini, is that correct? MR MBELO No, we were not told. MR HATTINGH You gave evidence at Mr De Kock's trial, and may I refer you to page 83 of Volume 3(a) where you were being led by Mr Ackerman appearing on behalf of the State and right at the beginning of page 4552, you were asked the following "... Sergeant, can you tell us now what you know about the abduction of Japie Maponya, where were you when you came to hear of it for the first time and what did you do?" You replied - "... we were at Josini when we were told about it that we had to go to Krugersdorp. We then departed from Josini to Pretoria, to the farm." Was that evidence the correct version? MR MBELO The evidence that we were going to leave from Josini, as to whether whom we were going to deal with at that time, I did not know as to whether we were going to arrest or abduct Japie Maponya. MR HATTINGH But you heard for the first time that you had to return to Pretoria or to Krugersdorp when you were already at Josini, is that correct? MR MBELO Yes, we were at Josini when we were informed. MR HATTINGH Did all of the members of your team at Josini, did they return to Krugersdorp or did some of them remain behind? MR MBELO Chairperson, I don't remember as to whether there were those who were left behind or we left, all of us. MR HATTINGH At page 89 of your evidence at Mr De Kock's trial, you said in answer to the following question "... so the other persons who would then have been with you at Josini, according to you remained behind?" And you replied to that - "... that is so." The next question was - "... did they return only a day or two or three or a while later from Josini?" And you replied - "... that is so." Was that evidence correct when you gave it at the time? MR MBELO Chairperson, when I wrote this evidence down on that page, that is, I mentioned that I don't know as to whether it was like that because my knowledge and my memory failed me. MR HATTINGH Was your memory better at the time when you gave evidence at Mr De Kock's trial than what it is today? MR MBELO No, it was not better. Today it is a little better because there are things which I do remember, but I did not, my memory lost me when I had to understand the order. MR HATTINGH Mr Mbelo, let's come to the abduction of Mr Maponya in Krugersdorp. Did you show him your identity card or your police identity card at the time when you instructed him to get into the car? MR MBELO One of them showed him an identity card and I had mine also. MR HATTINGH Did you show him yours? MR MBELO I remember so. MR HATTINGH Yes, because that is what you say in paragraph 15 of your application, is that correct? MR MBELO That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you and Mr Nofemela and Mr Nzimande, you were not wearing masks or anything to disguise your identity at the time when you confronted Mr Maponya, is that correct? MR MBELO No, we identified ourselves, but we did not wear a uniform. MR HATTINGH Yes, but your faces weren't covered? MR MBELO Yes, we did not disguise ourselves. MR HATTINGH All right. From there, you took him to Vlakplaas? MR MBELO That is correct. MR HATTINGH And in the car, was he blindfolded in the car or was he left without a blindfold until you got to the farm? MR MBELO He was made to lay at the back seat on the floor, at the back and then we covered him with a blanket. MR HATTINGH Is that all you did, you didn't put something over his eyes apart from the blanket that you used to cover his body? MR MBELO I don't remember that we covered his face or his head. It was only the blanket which we covered him. CHAIRPERSON That blanket, did it cover him entirely, could he see where you were going? MR MBELO He was not able to see because we made him to lay on the floor at the back seat and I remember that Nzimande put his feet on top of him. He was not able to see where we were going. May I explain - on the road, he asked us as to whether, why are we not taking him to the nearest police station. That is all. MR HATTINGH What did you say when he asked you that question? MR MBELO If I remember well, I think it is Mr Nofemela, he said to him that he must put his head on the floor, then he threatened him with a gun. Then he laid down and then we continued with that trip. MR HATTINGH When you got to Vlakplaas, was he taken out of a car? MR MBELO We left Krugersdorp, back to the farm. We did not stop anywhere or we took him from our car to another car. MR HATTINGH Yes, but when you eventually arrived at Vlakplaas, did you then take him out of the car or did he remain inside the car? MR MBELO When we arrived at Vlakplaas where he was tortured, he was taken out of the car. MR HATTINGH At that stage, was he wearing a blindfold or did you remove the blanket from him? MR MBELO He was always covered with a blanket if I remember well. MR HATTINGH Did you see him wearing a balaclava at any stage? MR MBELO I don't remember as to whether it was on his head at a particular time. MR HATTINGH There in Krugersdorp when you first instructed him to get into the vehicle, perhaps I should ask you first, what type of vehicle were you travelling in again? MR MBELO I remember at De Kock's trial that I mentioned that we used a kombi, but when I remembered well, we were driving in a Jetta. MR HATTINGH So was he instructed to get into a Jetta vehicle? MR MBELO That is correct. MR HATTINGH And was he laying on the floor between the backrest of the front seats and the back seat itself? MR MBELO Between the two seats, between the front seat and the back seat, on the floor. MR HATTINGH Did you immediately force him to lay down like that, were you not afraid that people around might see what was going on? MR MBELO We forced him to lay down when the car was just about to move. MR HATTINGH Up until that stage, what was he doing, was he sitting on the back seat? MR MBELO When he entered in the car, he sat on the seat and then when the car was about to move, then we forced him to lay down, that is why he said to us, why did we not take him to the nearest police station, then we made him to lay down and then we put the blanket on top of him. MR HATTINGH Did you hear Mr De Kock at any stage at the river where he was questioned, interrogated, did you hear Mr De Kock ask Mr Nofemela if Mr Maponya would recognise him again? MR MBELO No, I did not hear that. I believe maybe we have already left, some of us. MR HATTINGH Now, you then commenced the interrogation of Mr Maponya and eventually you were told to stop, is that correct? MR MBELO That is correct. MR HATTINGH Who told you to stop? MR MBELO The person who was in control or who was in command, is Mr De Kock at the time. MR HATTINGH Did he give you any further instructions, you black members who were there at the time, did you receive any further instructions from him? MR MBELO Yes, he told us we can leave to, we should leave from that scene to, from next to the dam, we used to call that a big house, so he instructed us to leave to go to the big house, that is - we used to stay there. That is the house which was near the offices. MR HATTINGH Yes, and did you then go to the house? MR MBELO That is correct Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you receive any further instructions from Mr De Kock at the house? MR MBELO We were told to go home. MR HATTINGH And did you then leave? MR MBELO We left, but there were some of those who did not have a place to stay, they used to stay at that farm. MR HATTINGH And did they remain behind? MR MBELO Yes, some of them went to their girlfriends because they used to have girlfriends near by. MR HATTINGH And the next morning, Mr Mbelo, did you return to work? MR MBELO No Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was there a reason why you didn't go to work that day? MR MBELO It is because we were informed that we should not come to work. Always when we came back from various places, we did not have much work to do, what we would do, we would clean the yard. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lamey, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Mr Mbelo, were you instructed before you went to Krugersdorp, were you at Vlakplaas first and did you receive your instructions at Vlakplaas to go to Krugersdorp? MR MBELO We received our instructions from Vlakplaas on the day when we abducted Japie Maponya. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether, who did you travel with to Krugersdorp? MR MBELO We were three, I would not forget that even today. MR LAMEY Is it yourself and Mr Nofemela and Mr Nzimande? MR MBELO And the late Nzimande, that is correct. MR LAMEY Nzimande, was he an askari? MR MBELO That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY And that was now with this Jetta vehicle, that you went to Krugersdorp? MR MBELO Yes, that is correct, we used the Jetta from the farm to Krugersdorp. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether there was perhaps other vehicles who also departed when you departed from Vlakplaas to Krugersdorp, a kombi or other vehicles? MR MBELO I heard about other cars during De Kock's trial, but there was no car which was following us or which we followed. If there were those who went there, they were just coming to observe us as to whether we were doing the right thing, we were only three, that is myself, Nofemela and Nzimande. MR LAMEY No, what I am trying to get at, is it possible that there were other black members that also departed with a vehicle before or after you departed from Vlakplaas to Krugersdorp? MR MBELO That may be, it could have been possible. MR LAMEY You say when you arrived at Vlakplaas, that is now after the abduction, Mr Maponya was in a kombi, is that correct? MR MBELO I have explained that we brought Mr Maponya from our car, that is the Jetta, before he was tortured. The kombi which has been mentioned here, came later to the scene of this incident. MR LAMEY So according to you, he was taken from Krugersdorp right through, in the Jetta, to Vlakplaas? MR MBELO That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY I think you have mentioned it, but I just want to make sure, when he was, when Japie was from his work, when you abducted him, how did you manage to get him into the car? MR MBELO If I remember well, if it is not Mr Nofemela who said we are investigating a fraud case. MR LAMEY So did you present yourself as policemen? MR MBELO That is correct. MR LAMEY And the police identity cards were shown to him, is that correct? MR MBELO That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY Did you also show your identity card, apart from Mr Nofemela? MR MBELO I believe so. MR LAMEY And Nzimande who was the askari? MR MBELO That is correct? MR LAMEY Mr Mbelo, I just want to ask you something, whether you remember or can recall, were you prior to this abduction of Japie Maponya, were you yourself with other black members, before that, at any time before that, possibly before you went to Josini, in the Krugersdorp area, looking for Oderele Maponya or were you not part of that group? MR MBELO During the Japie Maponya incident, it was not for the first time I went to Krugersdorp. I went there many times. I remember one instance, we did not have a place to sleep, we used to sleep in the police cells in Krugersdorp. At a particular time, we slept at Chamdor, where today they call it Pops. CHAIRPERSON I think the question was, were you ever involved when you were in Krugersdorp, before this abduction, looking for Oderele Maponya? MR MBELO That may be possible Chairperson. MR LAMEY Were you a contingent of Vlakplaas with askaris working in the Krugersdorp area, looking for MK's which could possibly, one of them could have been Oderele Maponya? MR MBELO I would not dispute that. MR LAMEY Mr Mbelo, when you received the instructions you say from Nortje, that you have to return to Vlakplaas, while in Josini, was it very close to your normal duration of your month's work at Josini? INTERPRETER May you please repeat your question sir? MR LAMEY When you received your instructions from Nortje at Josini, that you must return now to Vlakplaas, was it towards the end of your work there at Josini, after a period of work towards more to the end? May I just ask you this, how long, when you went - I assume that you, prior to your work in Josini, had been working also in other areas in groups, is that correct? MR MBELO That is correct. MR LAMEY How long was the normal duration of your work when you went out in these groups? MR MBELO I would say approximately three weeks. MR LAMEY Now, when you left from Vlakplaas to Josini, was that in the beginning of the month? MR MBELO I am not able to state that it was at the beginning of the month, but after our deployment, we were given seven days a month, so that we would be able to go home and rest. When we come back, we would leave around the 10th or the 11th to various places. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Lamey wants to know is when you were redeployed from Josini back to Vlakplaas for Krugersdorp, for the Krugersdorp operation, had you been in Josini for about - for about how long had you been in Josini, was it near the end of your period that you were meant to be there or was it just at the beginning, shortly after you arrived? MR MBELO It was towards the end of our stay. MR LAMEY You don't know from who Mr Nortje received instructions to go to Krugersdorp or that you must return to Vlakplaas, is that correct? You just were told by Nortje that you must return to Vlakplaas? MR MBELO That is correct. MR LAMEY I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mbelo, before this incident, how long had you been working at Vlakplaas? MR MBELO It was on my third year. MR VISSER Your third year? Were you also originally an askari who became a policeman? MR MBELO I was never an askari, I went to Hammanskraal Police Training College. MR VISSER Did you receive some training about how to interrogate people? MR MBELO No sir. I did not receive any training about interrogation. MR VISSER But there were people who were interrogated at Vlakplaas if I understand you correctly? MR MBELO That is correct. MR VISSER And these people that you referred to, that were interrogated there and assaulted there or tortured there, and later released, can you give us some idea of how many people are you talking about, approximately? MR MBELO Approximately two people. MR VISSER Yes, in fact, was Japie Maponya in your experience the first one that was taken there and that was in fact thereafter murdered? MR MBELO Japie was the second one. MR VISSER Who was the first one? MR MBELO I don't remember his name Chairperson, because we at times were not told about the identity of various people who were tortured there. MR VISSER Yes. Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Mr Chairperson, thank you, I have no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Ramawele? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMAWELE Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mbelo, at Josini, you only got information that you have to go to Vlakplaas, there was no instruction about having to abduct somebody in Krugersdorp, is that so? MR MBELO We were not told that we were going to abduct somebody in Krugersdorp. MR RAMAWELE At Vlakplaas, you have already said that your recollection of the events leading to the abduction of Japie Maponya, is not good, is that so? MR MBELO That is correct Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE As you have already said, you are not in a position to dispute what Mr Nofemela says when he says that it was in fact Eugene de Kock who gave the instruction that Japie Maponya be abducted, it that so? MR MBELO I would not dispute that Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Is it true that Mr Nzimande did not have an ID, a police identification card? MR MBELO Yes, askaris used to have police identity cards, even though they were not trained. The majority of them went to college around 1990 to 1991. MR RAMAWELE And at the time of this incident, Mr Nzimande was new, he was operating as an askari very recently, is that so? MR MBELO That is correct. MR RAMAWELE You agree with me that he wouldn't have had a police identification card at that particular time? MR MBELO Because he was new, yes, I would agree with you. MR RAMAWELE Also it is my instruction that the, it is my instruction that Mr Japie Maponya was actually first stopped by Mr Nzimande and Mr Nofemela then interrupted the discussion between Mr Nzimande and Japie Maponya, do you have any knowledge about that? MR MBELO I don't remember that but because I was in the car when Mr Nofemela came with Japie in the car. MR RAMAWELE And that he was told by Mr Nofemela that he, Mr Nofemela was investigating a fraud case and that he wanted to talk to him about it, and Mr Maponya then went to the car that you used to take him to Vlakplaas? MR MBELO I agree with you sir. MR RAMAWELE You spoke earlier about the fact that Japie Maponya had asked why he was not being, or rather he should be taken to the nearest police station, do you remember that? MR MBELO Yes, that is correct. MR RAMAWELE And that somebody else threatened him, that he was then threatened by somebody after he had asked to be taken to the nearest police station? MR MBELO That is correct. MR RAMAWELE Because it is my instruction that it was actually Mr Nofemela who threatened Mr Maponya at that time and at that time, you were the driver of the vehicle. MR MBELO I would not disagree with you. MR RAMAWELE I've got no further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ramowene. Ms Bridjlall? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BRIDJLALL Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mbelo, you said that Mr Maponya was covered with a blanket, what was the purpose of covering him with the blanket? MR MBELO So that he would not see where he was being taken. MS BRIDJLALL Was he covered to the extent that he couldn't see where he was being taken? MR MBELO That is correct. MS BRIDJLALL Mr Mbelo, who assaulted Mr Maponya at Vlakplaas? MR MBELO Chairperson, I am one of them, but I am not able to tell you the identity of other people who took part. To those people who were present there, I would not be able to tell you who played which role, but I know that I assaulted him. CHAIRPERSON How did you assault him, in what manner? MR MBELO I slapped him with an open hand at the back. CHAIRPERSON Is that all that you did? MR MBELO That is what I remember doing. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MS BRIDJLALL Thank you. Do you remember teargas being sprayed on Mr Maponya? MR MBELO Yes, I remember. I have even entered that in my application, I mentioned the teargas. MS BRIDJLALL Who sprayed the teargas? MR MBELO I don't know who, but I learnt that it is Mr De Kock, but I don't remember who had that teargas, because we were many around Mr Maponya. MS BRIDJLALL Where was the teargas sprayed? MR MBELO There is a point when he was taken to a kombi, then it was sprayed inside, then he was put inside and for a second instant, the teargas was sprayed under the blanket at the time when he was still covered. MS BRIDJLALL So was he laying on the floor with the blanket over him, and the blanket was then lifted off him, is that correct, was he standing up or was he on the floor? CHAIRPERSON I think my impression was, perhaps Mr Mbelo can correct me if I am wrong, he says that he was taken into the kombi and it was sprayed and then outside, he was sprayed under the blanket. I think the ground might be the better word than the floor. I don't know, because the floor, it might be the floor of the kombi? MS BRIDJLALL Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about when he was outside? MS BRIDJLALL The ground, I am talking about when he was outside. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think let's use that. MR MBELO Are we talking about the kombi? CHAIRPERSON No, outside the kombi, when he was sprayed under the blanket, the question was, was he laying down at that stage or was he standing up, that is Mr Maponya, when he was sprayed? MR MBELO He was laying on the ground. MS BRIDJLALL Could you tell whether the teargas was sprayed on his face or into his mouth? MR MBELO The teargas was sprayed under the blanket, so I think it would reach his eyes or his face. MS BRIDJLALL Mr Mbelo, did you put questions to Mr Maponya, were you involved in the asking of questions? MR MBELO That is correct. There are questions which I asked him because white members instructed us to ask those questions. MS BRIDJLALL Do you remember what his responses were? MR MBELO What I remember about Japie Maponya, his responses, he was telling us he did not know anything about his brother. MS BRIDJLALL Did he say anything else? MR MBELO He did not say much, because even whites wanted to find out as to whether, where is Oderele Maponya, his brother and the answer was not forthcoming, he did not say anything, a lot, except saying he did not know. Then he denied that he did not know anything. MS BRIDJLALL After the day that Mr Maponya was assaulted, did you make any enquiries as to what happened to him? MR MBELO At Vlakplaas, you don't ask questions. You only listen to instructions. MS BRIDJLALL Did you not hear anything from the other members, did you not discuss that maybe Maponya has been murdered, maybe, did you not discuss the matter at all? MR MBELO Chairperson, at Vlakplaas, you do not ask. If you ask much, you would go the same fate with Mr Brian Ngqulunga. MS BRIDJLALL I am sorry, I am not familiar with that, what do you mean? MR MBELO I am trying to tell you that if you asked a lot of questions, you would be doubted about your honesty. MS BRIDJLALL Thank you Mr Mbelo. Thank you Chairperson, I do not have any further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BRIDJLALL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Bridjlall. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Yes, thank you Chairperson. Mr Mbelo, just tell me how long did it take for you to abduct Japie Maponya, from the time that you went to the back, the time that they had spoken to them and the time that they brought him back to the car, how long did that take, can you remember? MR MBELO Chairperson, I am not able to remember exactly. At the time when Mr Nofemela came to the car, it did not take two minutes, after that he was in the car. MS LOCKHAT Are you saying it didn't take two minutes for them to come back with Japie to the car, to actually go into the bank, get him and then come back to the car where you were? MR MBELO From the point where they were waiting for him and up to the point when they put him in the car, it cannot be more than two minutes. MS LOCKHAT You were the driver of the car, were you in the car or were you helping them to put Japie into the car? Were you in the driver's seat at that time when they brought Japie? MR MBELO At the time when they brought him, I was outside the car. That is why I was able to see them, our car was facing south. MS LOCKHAT You didn't show Japie your identity card, is that correct? MR MBELO That may be possible. MS LOCKHAT And Nzimande never had an identity card with him either? MR MBELO That is possible. MS LOCKHAT It was only Nofemela that had his ID card, which you think he had, as well, or did he have it with him? MR MBELO That is correct, he had it on his person. MS LOCKHAT So this whole incident took place about two minutes? Would you be able to say that Japie Maponya could have identified all of you in that two minutes? MR MBELO He would forget some of us, because I saw him for the first time on that particular day, I did not know him before. Even today, if you can show me his photo, I would not be able to identify that photo amongst other photo's. MS LOCKHAT So it is actually very unlikely that he would actually be able to give an identikit of the people that abducted him? MR MBELO It may be possible, it is possible, but you would at the ID parade, the police used to bring people who are not the same as those who participated in those particular incident. MS LOCKHAT Would you think that - you had the blanket over him from the time that you put him into the car basically, he was sitting on the seat and then you placed the blanket over him, and he couldn't see that you were going to Vlakplaas, he didn't know, the blanket was there on him, after that, all the time, is that correct? MR MBELO He did not see the direction to Vlakplaas. MS LOCKHAT And he didn't see Vlakplaas when you arrived there, either, is that also correct? MR MBELO That is possible. MS LOCKHAT In your mind, would you say that Mr De Kock could say because he had a suspicion or there was a possibility that Japie Maponya identified the three of you, that he could positively identify the three of you, that he had then actually killed him because of that, do you think that would be the sole reason for Mr De Kock to kill Japie Maponya, if that was a real possibility? MR WILLIAMS Mr Chairperson, with all due respect, I don't think the question is fair to Mr Mbelo, because he is being asked to speculate as to what went on in the mind of Mr De Kock? CHAIRPERSON It is more of an argument really. I don't know, whatever his answer will be, won't be too persuasive, because it is merely his opinion. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. Thank you Chairperson, that concludes my questioning. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Williams, do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS Mr Chairperson, just one issue that I just want to be clear on. Mr Mbelo, Mr Lamey asked you whether in fact you were previously in Krugersdorp to look for Oderele Maponya, can you remember whether in fact you were there on a previous occasion, yes or no? MR MBELO I would say I was present. MR WILLIAMS The question is can you remember that you were there to look for Oderele on a day before this actual abduction? MR LAMEY No, it was not addressed in a day in my examination, some time before ... CHAIRPERSON On a day, I think he said on a day before, some time before. MR LAMEY Okay. CHAIRPERSON Not the day before. Is that right Mr Williams, some time before the abduction, the question is were you in Krugersdorp looking for Oderele Maponya? MR WILLIAMS That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR MBELO I would say in one of our deployments before the Japie Maponya incident, we went there to look for Oderele Maponya because we had his photo at the farm. MR WILLIAMS Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Williams. Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions? ADV GCABASHE Yes, thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mbelo, page 654 of your application, paragraph 13, are you saying that when Warrant Officer Nortje told you about Oderele Maponya, you already knew about him because you had been to Krugersdorp before to look for him? MR MBELO Yes, I knew before about Oderele Maponya, that he was wanted by the whole country because there was one incident that it was alleged that he was involved. ADV GCABASHE Is that the same incident you refer to here, about the killing of a policeman? MR MBELO That is correct Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Now, paragraph 13, this information here, when did Nortje talk to you about this, in Josini or at Vlakplaas? MR MBELO According to this paragraph that we should be instructed that we should go and abduct Japie, it was explained to us that he was Oderele's brother. ADV GCABASHE Yes, now my question is, was that information given to you at Vlakplaas after you returned from Josini? MR MBELO Yes, that is correct Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Would that have been the day of the abduction or before the abduction, the day before or even prior, give me a sense? MR MBELO It was on that particular day of the abduction. ADV GCABASHE Did you have anything at all to do with the attempt by Chris Mosiane to talk to Japie, were you anywhere in the vicinity at the time, do you know anything at all about those events? MR MBELO No, I did not know anything about the incident. ADV GCABASHE Paragraph 14, you arrived at Krugersdorp at midday, paragraph 14? MR MBELO That is correct. ADV GCABASHE You were not part of any discussion at all, in Krugersdorp with your seniors, that would include Mr De Kock, Mr Nortje, Mr Fourie, Mr Van der Walt, depending on seniority there, were you involved in any discussions at all about this incident, with those people? MR MBELO I was not involved in any discussions with the people you have named. We knew it was the mission that involved the three of us. ADV GCABASHE So when you left Vlakplaas to come up to Krugersdorp, you were clear you were coming to abduct this man and take him back to Vlakplaas? MR MBELO We went there with that kind of knowledge. ADV GCABASHE Again, just give me a sense, I am trying to tie up the loose ends here, you left Vlakplaas, I would assume an hour before if you were in Krugersdorp at twelve o'clock, the discussion you had with Mr Nortje would have taken place at about what time in the morning? MR MBELO If I remember well, it was approximately ten o'clock to eleven o'clock, somewhere there. ADV GCABASHE I just want to get this absolutely clear, by that time, somewhere between ten and eleven o'clock, you knew that you were going to abduct Japie Maponya? MR MBELO Before we were told about the abduction, about Japie Maponya, we learnt when we were leaving that we should go to Krugersdorp, that is then that we were given instructions that we are going to abduct this particular person. ADV GCABASHE My emphasis is just on the abduction, because there were as you have heard with all the evidence, there was first the attempt by Chris Mosiane and then there was the abduction because that attempt failed, I am just trying to get absolute clarity that when you left, somewhere between ten and eleven o'clock, you knew that you were going to abduct, yes? MR MBELO That is correct Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE The brief as to the questions you were supposed to ask Japie Maponya, who told you what questions to ask? MR MBELO White members who were present there, I would say those were members of the Krugersdorp Security Branch, because they had an interest about Japie Maponya and then again the whereabouts of Oderele Maponya. ADV GCABASHE And the nature of those questions were strictly about the whereabouts of Oderele, nothing else, nothing about arms caches and goodness knows what else, just about the whereabouts of Oderele? MR MBELO The questions were asking about the whereabouts of Oderele and then again they were trying to find out I would say as to whether Japie's family, where are they staying, as to whether they were in South Africa or in the neighbouring countries or around Pretoria. ADV GCABASHE Questions like that, about the family, where the family might be, did he again not give you any responses at all, was he unhelpful even in those respects? MR MBELO They were not of help, because Japie did not know anything about the whereabouts of Oderele. ADV GCABASHE No, I understand that, but the rest of the family, they'd ask about the mother, they'd ask about goodness knows whoever else, again, even with those other people, family members who you asked him questions about, he would again be uncooperative? MR MBELO There were those questions which he responded to positively as to whether he had relatives at various places. ADV GCABASHE The only time you saw Mr De Kock on the 25th, the day that you abducted Japie, was back at the farm, you did not see him at all at Krugersdorp? MR MBELO That is correct, I saw him for the first time at the farm. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Malan, do you have any questions? MR MALAN I just want to pursue this question about Japie saying that he did not know. What was your impression, that he indeed did not know where Oderele was or that he was hiding something? MR MBELO Chairperson, if I was Japie Maponya or any other person, the way this person was assaulted, if he knew something, he could have responded positively. MR MALAN So did you tell the white members of Krugersdorp Security Branch that he did not know anything? MR MBELO We were interpreting in their own language what Japie Maponya was saying. MR MALAN They did not ask your opinion as to whether he was a sympathiser or a collaborator or hiding anything? MR MBELO Nobody asked about my opinion. MR MALAN But from the answers, your opinion was that he was not hiding anything any more, that is how I understand your evidence? MR MBELO According to my opinion and the way he responded to the things which he knew when we asked about family members, but about Oderele Maponya, he did not know anything. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mbelo, could you give an approximate idea as to how long the assault took place, and the interrogation? MR MBELO I don't remember, I would put it around 30 to 45 minutes. CHAIRPERSON Did, after the assault, did Mr Maponya have any visible injuries that you saw? MR MBELO We would, the Security Branch would make sure that if a person had been tortured and assaulted, people would not be able to see so that he would not get injuries. CHAIRPERSON I take it in this incident, your answer is that there were no visible injuries? MR MBELO That is correct, on the face, he was not bleeding and things like that. CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions that any representative would like to put to the witness, arising out of questions that were put by members of the panel? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I wouldn't call them questions, I would just like to place on record, perhaps with your leave, may I just put to him that Mr De Kock was not at Vlakplaas on the morning in question. CHAIRPERSON On the morning after ... MR HATTINGH The morning of the abduction, yes. Mr Mbelo, I am putting it to you that you are making a mistake, that you didn't see Mr De Kock at Vlakplaas before you left for Krugersdorp to go and abduct Mr Maponya, you only saw him in Krugersdorp and that you received your instructions about the abduction in Krugersdorp and not at Vlakplaas? MR MBELO I will dispute with Mr De Kock, because I received instructions at Vlakplaas. CHAIRPERSON You said you received those instructions from Mr Nortje, is that correct or was it from Mr De Kock? MR MBELO When I started I mentioned that I said I don't remember well as to whether it was Mr De Kock or Nortje, but what I know is that we received instructions at Vlakplaas. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh is putting it to you that on that morning, the morning of the abduction, Mr De Kock was not at Vlakplaas, that is what Mr Hattingh is putting to you, what do you say to that? MR MBELO I would say it is possible that he was not there at Vlakplaas, but I received instructions to abduct Mr Maponya, at Vlakplaas. ADV GCABASHE In fact Mr Mbelo, I understood your evidence to mean that you only saw Mr De Kock after the abduction, at the farm, after the abduction. I had not understood you to say that you saw him earlier in the day, but maybe I misunderstood you? Is that correct that you actually only saw him in the afternoon, after the abduction, that is Mr De Kock? MR MBELO That is correct, that is what I have said in response to Ms Gcabashe's question. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Any other questions? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman, just also on this point. You emphasised now in the examination by Mr Hattingh, that it is possible that Mr De Kock was not there, is it also possible that Mr Nortje was not there, but you emphasised that you received instructions at Vlakplaas, that you received it from somebody at Vlakplaas, but you are not sure whether it was Mr Nortje or Mr De Kock? ADV GCABASHE In fact, you included Mr Nofemela as well, as a person who might have instructed you, if it is relevant at all Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY Yes? MR MBELO That is correct. MR LAMEY So it is possible that the instructions was channelled from Krugersdorp perhaps to Mr Nofemela by radio or some other means, but that you received the instructions on Vlakplaas, from Mr Nofemela? MR MBELO Our radio's would not be able to work in that kind of radius. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Lamey is saying is that, is it possible, this is what is being put to you by Mr Lamey, is it possible that Mr Nofemela may have been communicated the instruction from Krugersdorp by radio or by telephone, let's say telephone, and that you will go to Krugersdorp to abduct Mr Maponya, and that Mr Nofemela conveyed that instruction at Vlakplaas to you and Mr Nzimande? MR MBELO It would not be possible to use telephones, so they would not be able to communicate those kinds of issues on the radio. It would be people who should confront each other in the discussion. CHAIRPERSON When you say it would not be possible, you mean they wouldn't talk about that sort of thing over the telephone, you are not saying it was impossible to phone Vlakplaas? MR MBELO Chairperson, they would be able to communicate telephonically, but they would not state those issues on the phone, because we received direct instructions about whom are we going to abduct at Krugersdorp. MR LAMEY Mr Mbelo, just on these instructions, is it possible for instance, that you received instructions to go to Krugersdorp at Vlakplaas, and that you received the instructions at Krugersdorp as to the abduction and that you have this in your mind also that the abduction was discussed at Vlakplaas, but you are joining the two together, but you could be mistaken, that you only received an instruction to go to Krugersdorp for instance, and then on arrival at Krugersdorp you learnt that there was going to be an abduction and ... MR MBELO I still maintain what I have already said, that I received the full instructions about the trip to Krugersdorp and the abduction, at Vlakplaas. MR LAMEY All right, but you are not sure whether it was Mr De Kock or Mr Nortje? MR MBELO As I have already stated Chairperson. MR LAMEY All right. Mr Mbelo, did you know that Mr Maponya was approached prior to his abduction, by Mr Mosiane at the bank where he worked? MR MBELO I did not know that. MR MALAN Mr Lamey, is this following from questions put to the witness? MR LAMEY I am just coming back to the aspect about what was related by him during his interrogation at Vlakplaas, I just want to follow up on that. It was just an introduction to what I was going to ask him. Can you recall whether Mr Maponya during his interrogation at Vlakplaas, mentioned anything that he was approached by someone who said he was an MK member, at his working place, at the bank? MR MBELO I don't remember that sir. MR LAMEY Thank you, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Ramowene, do you wish to have questions arising? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMAWELE Yes Mr Chairperson, on the question of the abduction. Mr Mbelo, as you say that it could, the instruction could have been from Mr Nofemela, your rank at that time was? MR MBELO I was a Constable. MR RAMAWELE And Mr Nofemela? MR MBELO He was a Sergeant. MR RAMAWELE I take it that to abduct a person, it is quite a serious thing. Do you really think that Mr Nofemela can actually give you such an instruction? MR MBELO I know Nofemela would convey that instructions, meaning that he received that instructions from above. MR RAMAWELE Have you had an occasion where such a thing happened? MR MBELO Usually when the handlers, the white handlers or white leaders were not there. MR RAMAWELE I am referring particularly to when Mr Nofemela would give an instruction to abduct a person. If you were given the instruction by Mr Nofemela, it would have been for the very first time on this particular day? MR WILLIAMS Mr Chairperson, with all due respect to my colleague, I think he is misinterpreting what the applicant is saying because the applicant made it clear and myself also made it clear, that the instruction might have been conveyed to Mr Mbelo, not given, the command wasn't given by Mr Nofemela, but it might have been conveyed by him. CHAIRPERSON I recall my notes here that I wrote, the instruction may have come from Mr De Kock or Nortje or be conveyed by Mr Nofemela. MR RAMAWELE If I can just rephrase it, the same question, would ... INTERPRETER Just a minute Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, there is a problem with the Interpreter, if you could just wait, Mr Ramowene. MR RAMAWELE I was saying have you ever had a situation where Mr Nofemela would convey that kind of an instruction to you before this incident? MR MBELO Not about abduction or about something, but other instructions used to be conveyed by him, because when we were deployed, we didn't know what we were doing, so the Group Leaders would inform us what is needed and what we should do, what is expected of us. MR RAMAWELE Would you agree that the instruction that Mr Nofemela had conveyed previously, were of less serious nature than the one that we are talking about? MR MBELO Yes, I agree with you Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Thank you, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Mbelo, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED