amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-07-27 PORT ELIZABETH 2 NKULEKO CEKWANA AM7829/97 KILLING OF SERGEANT SANUSE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53561&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99072629_pe_990727pe.htm MR NYOKA Mr Chairperson, I confirm my appearance for the applicant in this matter, Mr Cekwana. Without any further ado he may be sworn in, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Nyoka. And then of course, just for the record, the Leader of Evidence is Ms Thabethe. Please stand and give your full names for the record. MR CEKWANA My name is Nkuleko Cekwana. I reside at Mdantsane, 8363 in Nutri(?) section. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. NKULEKO CEKWANA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You may be seated. Mr Nyoka? MR NYOKA CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NYOKA I wish to do so now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we'll grant you that, Mr Nyoka. EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA Mr Cekwana, is it correct that you filled in the application form for amnesty yourself, without any assistance? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. MR NYOKA On page of the application form, paragraph 10(a) and (b), where it is stated that you must state political objectives sought to be achieved, you wrote "none". Was that your intention? MR CEKWANA I think it was just after I was sentenced. I was not reasoning properly because I wrote "none" there in that application. MR NYOKA That is also your response I assume, in paragraph 10(b), where it was asked - where you responded "none" for justification for the acts. You sought - there was no justification. Was that the similar response also? Is that a similar response also? MR CEKWANA I think so, because my situation after I was sentenced I was not thinking straight. Even the forms that were given, the police were in a hurry when they were telling us to fill in the form. Just imagine that kind of a situation after being sentenced. I was very much uncomfortable, that is why I committed such mistakes. MR NYOKA How old are you? MR CEKWANA I am 37 years old. MR NYOKA This incident happened in August 1993, not so? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. MR NYOKA What party or organisation did you belong to? MR CEKWANA The organisation that I belonged to was ANC, ANC Youth League. As a ...(indistinct) Umkhonto weSizwe. MR NYOKA When did you become a member of Umkhonto weSizwe and ANC? MR CEKWANA I became a member of Umkhonto weSizwe in 1991. MR NYOKA In South Africa? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. MR NYOKA Is it correct that you were convicted of murder and robbery of a firearm, in Court? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. MR NYOKA What was your sentence? MR CEKWANA My sentence was 23 years concurrently. That made it 12 years. MR NYOKA Can you tell us - can you therefore tell us in your own words, in the absence of this affidavit, what happened, why are you applying for amnesty? In your words. MR CEKWANA Yes, I'm going to do that. In 1992, I was one of the members of the Executive Committee of the ANC in the branch of NU3 and 4. I was a Chairman of the ANC Youth League in that branch of NU3 and 4 section. At the time we were campaigning for the ANC, door-to-door campaign, voter education. After that there was a campaign of overthrowing Gqozo at Bisho. I was also involved there. MR NYOKA Proceed. MR CEKWANA Even there I was also involved. I also don't know how did I survive that at Bisho. After that, just before the end of two weeks, there was an order that was issued by comrade Mpate. He was one of the commanders of MK at the time. He was telling us that there was a policeman which was at 6 section. We had to remove that policeman because police were not welcome among the community because they were part and parcel of the government of that time. We agreed to that. It was myself, comrade Munyadu, comrade Bobie. The three of us. We belonged to that unit of section 3. I was acting as a commander of that unit. Comrade Idu was acting as a logistics officer, the one who was in charge of the weapons. Comrade Munyadu was acting as a commissar, a person who was giving political education. We went to NU6 to do something called reconnaissance, to reconnoitre the place where this operation was going to take place. We came back. We went there again with another comrade called Bongani Dukwana, who was the main person who knew this policeman, because we did not know this policeman. We waited at a distance of about 100 metres. Comrade Bongani Dukwana showed us where this van was parked or where the van was normally parked and the police would walk on foot for a distance of about 300 metres. We had an R4 rifle, a 7.65. Due to the fact that it was still early, it was still bright, I requested them not to undertake the operation on that particular day because it was still early and there were other people who would be involved, innocent people who would be involved there. Comrade Munyadu went there and I was not present and they came back. I think I went there on the fifth time. I was with Bongani Dukwana. On that particular day, comrade Munyadu was going to a meeting of the communistic party as a secretary of the branch Ruth First that is. Dudumane was going to the meeting of SANCO, as a chairman of the area. I was with Bongani Dukwana. We arrived there in the evening at about twenty to seven. I decided to stand next to a certain yard. Comrade Bongani Dukwana as a person knew this policeman, when it was becoming dark he is the person who was going to give me a signal when he sees this policeman. We agreed to that. He was armed with a 7.65. He was the one who was going to stage a hold-up and he is the one who was going to disarm this policeman. If I instructed to hold up and the policeman refused, he was going to shoot or fire. We agreed to that. Yes, when he saw this policeman he gave me a signal. When it was becoming dark he lit a match. When I was still looking at that I saw him coming with two people coming behind him. Certainly he was the one. When he was at a distance of seven metres, I instructed him to hold up, but he refused. I was forced to press the safety catch because my firearm was on safety. I fired. When I was firing apparently I had pressed on A. This R4 rifle was an automatic one. Once you press an A instead of S, it releases a lot of bullets. I continued firing and I ...(indistinct) him. I ran away. I jumped a fence and I crossed a river. I went to a certain school called Godlo. At the time I did not see comrade Dukwana. While I was still standing there in those premises thinking, he came, he appeared running. I asked him as to where he was coming from. He said when the gun was fired he got a shock and he ran away. We left Godlo, we crossed a tar road that was going towards NU3. That is where I was residing. We did not spend time there. We proceeded to 94 section where comrade Bobie was staying. When we arrived there they were from a meeting, these two comrades that is. They told me that the quorums had refused to agree at a meeting - there was no quorum at the meeting that is. I told them that I had disarmed the policeman. I showed them this firearm. We had to take it to the commander at NU8. Our commander was comrade Mpati Goniwe. When we were at the integration process at Walmasdal, when he came one December in 1995, he was assaulted by the taxi people and he passed away. I went to NU8. I found comrade Mpati. I told him and I showed him this pistol that belonged to this policeman. He said: "It is good that you were not injured, you can go back to your unit". That's what he said to me. I went back to my unit. We stayed there, still continuing doing our old job of organising. I handed over this firearm on a Monday during the day. On a Wednesday I went to 8 section. I found comrade Mpati there. This firearm, the one that belonged to this policeman, had no magazine when I got it. Comrade Mpati gave it back to me with a magazine. I went back to NU3. When I arrived there sometimes we used to discuss there, discuss politics with the comrades. On a Friday my comrades came, that is comrade Mpati, comrade Bobie and comrade Manyadu. But on that particular day we were at comrade Manyadu's place. We were sitting there chatting or discussing. As it was becoming late, or getting late, we head to disperse. Myself and Bongani, we had to cross to the other side when we were moving from comrade Bobie's place. We dispersed. We left with comrade Bongani. As a soldier I don't normally go straight home, go straight inside the house, I normally stand somewhere and surveil the place. Just before 30 minutes I heard a gunshot at a distance of 100 metres. It was fired twice. The firearm that was with Bongani Dukwana was a 7.65 with six bullets. Just before the end of five minutes I saw him coming because the steep was a bit - the slope was a bit steep. He was coming running. When I asked him what was happening he said there are gentlemen who were chasing him from the other side. They had big rifles. As I had this firearm of this policeman with nine bullets, I told him that we should go up there and check. I did not see anything. I became suspicious immediately because I thought that comrade Bongani decided to play around with the bullets. I told him to give me the firearm. He gave the firearm to me. I accompanied him to his home. I took him inside the house. When he was inside the house I went back to where I was staying. That is where I spent a night. The following day it was a Sunday. As I was still relaxing, I think the time was round about after eight in the morning, I heard someone knocking at the door in the kitchen. The door was opened. When the person got inside he went past the lady who was in the kitchen, the one who had opened the door for him. He went straight to the room with a card identifying himself as a policeman. He was looking for Nkuleko Cekwana ...(intervention) MR NYOKA In other words you were arrested, eventually you were arrested? Yes, or no? Were you arrested? MR CEKWANA Yes, I was arrested. I was taken to NU12 Police Station. MR NYOKA The Committee has noted that you were arrested. Do you admit that you were found in possession of a firearm with bullets, the one that was taken from the policeman? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. MR NYOKA Yes. You have nothing further to say. We are not interested as such with the procedure of your arrest. You were arrested. Is there anything else that you wish to say pertaining to the application? MR CEKWANA Yes, there is something else. As I was still attending the trial I went to the regional office of the ANC to tell them that I was arrested, I was coming from prison with a bail of R1 500. I told them that I did not have a legal representative and the case was referred to the Supreme Court. They told me to meet with comrade Alfred Metele. I went to comrade Alfred Metele, who told me to come back the following day. I did so. He took me to a legal representative who was in King Williams Town. I gave him the statement. Within three days an order came from comrade Mpati telling me that I should go to the MK offices. When I arrived there I was told that on the 18th of July I was supposed to go to Pretoria, where I was going to be involved in the integration process. I did that on the 18th. A white colonel was there. We were taken in the truck. We were taken to Bisho. At about 12 midnight we left Bisho for Walmasdal, where we were going to be involved in the integration process. I couldn't attend any further trial at the Supreme Court because the authorities there did not allow me to attend the case. They said I was still busy with the integration process. MR NYOKA Were you one of the accused in that case? Were a participant, were you one of the accused in the case in the High Court? MR CEKWANA Yes, I am the first accused. MR NYOKA Where you present in the Court? MR CEKWANA No, I couldn't be there. MR NYOKA Okay. That's all. Mr Chairperson, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Nyoka. ADV SANDI Ja, but sorry, Mr Nyoka, can you explain this. I thought in the end he was convicted and sentenced? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. ADV SANDI So you eventually went back to Court and you were found guilty and sentenced to a number of years of imprisonment. MR CEKWANA When I was on holiday in 1996, January, I was again arrested. I was taken to Court. That is when I was sentenced. My present sentence, as I'm serving now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. That was the evidence-in-chief? MR NYOKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON We'll take the luncheon adjournment and we'll reconvene at 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Cekwana, you are reminded that you are still under oath. Do you understand? NKULEKO CEKWANA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Thabethe, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair, thank you. Mr Chair, I would like to indicate that I'm also representing the interests of the victims in this matter. Mr Cekwana, you said in 1992 you became the Chairman of the ANC Youth League in zones or sections 3 and 4, is that correct? MR CEKWANA Will you please repeat your question. MS THABETHE You became the Chairman of the ANC Youth League for the sections in Mdantsane, sections 3 and 4. I just want to verify whether that's correct. MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE Now can you just explain to the Committee, if you were responsible for sections 3 and 4, were you just responsible for those sections or were you responsible for the whole of Mdantsane? MR CEKWANA I was responsible for NU3. MS THABETHE And 4? NU3 only? MR CEKWANA NU3 and 4. MS THABETHE And then Sergeant Sanuse stayed or was - stayed and also was targeted in section 6, is that correct? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE Now my instructions are - can you just explain why you had to go to section 6 to carry out your mission, why you didn't carry it out in your section or in the section that you were responsible for? MR CEKWANA We were simply taking orders from a comrade who was above me ...(intervention) MS THABETHE Sorry, I didn't hear, from comrade who? MR CEKWANA Comrade Mpati Goniwe. MS THABETHE Mpati? MR CEKWANA Yes. LOUD MUSIC PLAYING MS THABETHE Should I proceed, Mr Chair, with the music? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I don't know if it's inside or outside, I'm not sure. MS THABETHE It sounds very much inside. CHAIRPERSON Is that so. Yes, it seems as if they're taking care of that. I think try again. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. You say you received orders from Mpati. Who was he? MR CEKWANA Mpati Goniwe was my commander. Mpati Goniwe was a comrade who was responsible for the whole Mdantsane. MS THABETHE And exactly what order did he give you? MR CEKWANA The instruction was that there was a police from NU6 that was supposed to shoot. MS THABETHE I'm having difficulty hearing you. MR CEKWANA I also have the same problem. MS THABETHE Sorry, if you don't mind can you please your answer, I really didn't hear it. My question was, exactly what orders were given by Mpati? MR CEKWANA He said there is a policeman from NU6 that we were supposed to shoot. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, Ms Thabethe. Was Mr Mpati's position? He was your commander you say, but commander of what? What structure, what organisation? MR CEKWANA He was the MK - he was in the MK. CHAIRPERSON So was he the MK Commander for the whole of Mdantsane? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And were you the MK Commander for NU3 and 4? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Ms Thabethe? ADV SANDI Just one thing, Chair. When did Mr Goniwe become your commander for the first time? MR CEKWANA He stared in 1991, in March 1991. ADV SANDI How did that happen? MR CEKWANA As I was a member of the ANC Youth League I was also identified as a person who could be trained in the MK. I was summoned to the ANC office. I was told that I should meet with Commander Mpati. ADV SANDI Did someone introduce you to comrade Mpati? MR CEKWANA No. ADV SANDI You were taken to Mr Mpati and he became your commander? MR CEKWANA I have a problem with my headphones. It is okay now. ADV SANDI You say you were taken to Mr Mpati and you joined - he became your commander in March 1991. MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. ADV SANDI Did you have a codename? MR CEKWANA No. ADV SANDI Did Mpati Goniwe have a codename? MR CEKWANA Yes, he had a codename. ADV SANDI What was that codename? MR CEKWANA He was Geurrilla. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE You said you were given an order by Mpati - I just want to make sure that I'm together with you, who said you must go specifically to Sergeant Sanuse. Is that correct? MR CEKWANA He did not say his name, but he said there was a policeman at NU6. MS THABETHE Did he give a reason why you had to go and attack? MR CEKWANA No, he never gave a reason. The only reason was known by all the soldiers of Umkhonto weSizwe, that all the policemen should be removed in the community because they were working hand-in-hand with the government of the time. MS THABETHE My instructions as well, Mr Cekwana, is to ask you whether - why couldn't you attack the policemen in your section, why opted to go to section 6? MR CEKWANA As a soldier we were dealing with that particular person per instruction. MS THABETHE Okay. I'm trying to understand this. Your order was that you go to section 6 to identify this policeman. Were you shown this policeman before? MR CEKWANA No. MS THABETHE So on what basis did you attack this policeman if you had never met him before? How did you identify him? MR CEKWANA After we were given an order by Mpati, we went to NU6 with comrade Dukwana. Those were the two people who knew the policeman. The other - we did not know that policeman. Those were the only two people who knew the policeman. MS THABETHE So you say it was yourself, Commander Mpati and who else? Who went to zone 6? MR CEKWANA And Bongani Dukwana. MS THABETHE And before you actually attacked the policeman did you wait for him somewhere or you just went there and you found him and you ...? I just want you to take us from the time you went there, where did you go to, how he was attacked. Can you just take us through that please. MR CEKWANA We went to NU6, we waited for him at a certain spot. Bongani approached him as he was coming. I did not know him, but I told him that when he sees this person he should make a signal and then he did so and I saw him, the policeman that is. MS THABETHE Can you tell the Committee exactly which is the - I'll quote your words ...(Xhosa). You say you waited from him ...(Xhosa). Where exactly is that, where did you wait for him? Was it outside, was it in a house? Can you just clarify that. MR CEKWANA As we were moving from NU3, the time was about half past six. When we arrived there at NU6 the time was twenty to six and it was becoming dark. I went to stand next to a certain yard. I think it was a second house if I'm not mistaken. Bongani went up to approach him as he was coming. MS THABETHE You see why I'm asking you this is because my instructions are that before you attacked Sergeant Sanuse, the deceased, you were in the shebeen. What is your response to that? MR CEKWANA First of all, I never touched liquor since I was born. Secondly, we do not have a code of conduct that says that we should start at a shebeen before undertaking a mission. Thirdly, I don't even know a single shebeen at NU6. Therefore that is not true. MS THABETHE Yes, I just want to clarify my instructions. My instructions were not that you went there to drink. That's not clear from my instructions. But my instructions are that you came out of a shebeen house. So is your response negative? Are you saying you never went into a house or a shebeen house that day? MR CEKWANA No, I did not go to a shebeen, because even in that second house where I was I did not get inside, I was just next to the yard. MS THABETHE My instructions further are that as a result of the fact that you had come out of this shebeen house, the owner of that shebeen was chased away by the organisation in the township, which was called SANCO. Do you know anything about this? What is your response to that? MR CEKWANA Unfortunately I know nothing, I don't know anything that was taking place in that section. MS THABETHE Now I just want to find out exactly what your political reason, how you associated the act that you committed, with a political objective. Can you just tell the Committee how do you justify killing Sergeant Sanuse politically? MR CEKWANA First of all, I am an ANC member, I am an Umkhonto weSizwe member. Secondly, the order was issued from the MK commanders. That is why I say this action was politically motivated. Thirdly, I did not know Sergeant Sanuse, I knew when I was in front of the police or in jail. MS THABETHE Why I've asked you this question is because - Mr Cekwana, my instructions are that your action was not at all political, it was criminal. You were seen coming out of a shebeen and Sergeant happened to be in the place and that's why you attacked him. Do you want to respond to that? MR CEKWANA Yes, I would love to respond to that. I wouldn't call the comrades of the struggle, to call them in - to invite them in a criminal activity. MS THABETHE You also in your evidence said that or indicated that after killing the deceased you took his firearm. Can you advance a reason why you did that? MR CEKWANA Yes, I can give the reason for that. The reason for us to take his firearm, we did that because as the members of Umkhonto weSizwe we did not have sufficient firearms, and one of the policies of Umkhonto weSizwe states categorically that if you get hold of the enemy you must take that enemy's firearm and go and report to your commanders. That is why after shooting Sergeant Sanuse, I took his firearm. MS THABETHE After taking the deceased's firearm, what did you do with it? MR CEKWANA After taking that firearm I went to my place. I then left and went to the other comrades who were not there, those who went to the meeting. I told them that the following day I was to report to comrade Goniwe. MS THABETHE So did you indeed the following day go to report? MR CEKWANA Yes, I did so, I left the firearm with him. MS THABETHE So the firearm - I'm open to correction, that when you were arrested there was a firearm that was found in your possession, is that correct? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE Which firearm - where did you get this one from? MR CEKWANA Two firearms were found in my possession. The other one I had given it to comrade Mpati after completing a course in military training and the second one I got it from comrade Mpati on a Wednesday. It was grinded, the serial number was grinded at the time. Those were the two firearms that were found in my possession. MS THABETHE My last question to you is, can you just give a brief account of how you actually killed Sergeant Sanuse? MR CEKWANA When he was coming - as Bongani knew him very well, Bongani signalled to me that that was the one. I told him to hold up. When I was in the distance of seven metres I told him to lift up his hands, he refused, he wanted to draw his gun. That is when I started firing. After that I took his firearm and I left. MS THABETHE Can you remember how many shots you fired, considering the fact that you said you pressed a wrong button and your firearm was an automatic? MR CEKWANA Unfortunately the bullets that were released, I couldn't count them because it was already dark. When I pressed the safety catch of that R4 rifle, it became apparent that I pressed the A and it was an automatic rifle, so a lot of bullets were released. MS THABETHE I know I said I was asking you the last question, but there's another question I want to ask you. In your application on page 1, you mention there, Bongani Lamla Mnadu and Dudumani Bobie. You've told us who Bongani Dukwana was, what about the other names, Lamla Mnadu and Dudumani Bobie? How do they feature in your application? MR CEKWANA Lamla Mnadu was my commissar, the person who was giving us political education in the unit. comrade Dudumani Bobie was a logistics officer, the one who was responsible for keeping the weapons after being obtained somewhere. MS THABETHE And then on page 3 of your application number 13, you write something like "It was a conflict between Gqozo regime and the ANC." Would you like to explain this statement? MR CEKWANA Yes, I can explain that. In 1992, as we attended an march, an ANC march at Bisho, we were shot at by Gqozo's soldiers. After that we could not stay freely in our place of residence because of the Ciskeian Police and soldiers. That is why I was saying there was a conflict between them and the ANC. MS THABETHE Is that conflict you are talking about related to the incident that you've applied for? Because I'm trying to link it up you see. You've mentioned it in your application, so I'm trying to link it up to the act that you've actually applied for. Is there any link? MR CEKWANA I think that this conflict is the one that led to enmity between Ciskeian Police and soldiers. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. Can I just verify with the family whether they are satisfied? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE Thanks. Thank you, Mr Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Thabethe. Mr Cekwana, the firearm that you used to kill the deceased with, did I understand you correctly, was that an R4 rifle? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Where did you get that from? MR CEKWANA From comrade Mpati Goniwe. CHAIRPERSON Did he give it to you for that particular operation? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Now after you had shot the deceased you took the weapon of the deceased, is that right? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was that a pistol? MR CEKWANA It was a CZ pistol. CHAIRPERSON Say again, what kind of pistol? MR CEKWANA CZ. CHAIRPERSON Oh, CZ. MR CEKWANA Yes, CZ pistol. CHAIRPERSON What is it, a 9mm or what kind of weapon is it? MR CEKWANA It is a 9mm. CHAIRPERSON But was there no magazine in this CZ 9mm pistol? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now was it the following day that you handed this CZ pistol to Mpati Goniwe? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And what did you do with the R4 rifle? MR CEKWANA It was left with comrade Bobie Dudumane. CHAIRPERSON Oh I see, that was your logistics officer? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And was he responsible for safeguarding the weapons of the unit? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And what eventually happened to the R4 rifle? MR CEKWANA After three days, comrade Dudumane handed it over to comrade Mpati Goniwe. CHAIRPERSON Now if I understood it correctly, the police arrested you while you were in possession of the CZ 9mm pistol that you took from the deceased. Is that right? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you got that pistol back from Mpati Goniwe at some stage, together with the magazine? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now when did this happen? MR CEKWANA It was during the week on a Wednesday when I had visited the 8 section. Comrade Mpati Goniwe gave me the pistol with a magazine. CHAIRPERSON Was it a few days after the killing of the deceased? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why did Mpati Goniwe give you this pistol back? MR CEKWANA It is because he knew that we had only firearm, the 7.65. He did not want the unit to be without firearms. CHAIRPERSON So did he give it to you for the purposes of the unit? MR CEKWANA That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But how did it come about that you were found in possession of this pistol? Did you not give it back to Dudumane Bobie, your logistics officer? MR CEKWANA As this happened Saturday evening, comrade Mpati visited our unit. We met and we dispersed and this pistol ended up with me because we were going to cross the river and Bongani had a 7.65, as we were going to cross the river together. That is how the pistol ended up with me. CHAIRPERSON So you were going to hold the pistol overnight at home? MR CEKWANA Yes, I was going to have it for the night and I would hand it over to the logistics officer the following day. CHAIRPERSON But you were arrested during the course of that night? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Your Honour. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Nyoka, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION MR NYOKA Just one, Mr Chairperson, just one. Mr Cekwana, to your knowledge, was there a rule that you defy an order from your senior solely on the basis that you could not attack someone outside your zone? MR CEKWANA According to the army there is no chance for that. MR NYOKA I'm not talking about a chance, I'm talking about your rule. Do you know about any rule to that effect, not about an opportunity or chance? Do you know of any rule to that effect? MR CEKWANA No. MR NYOKA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA ADV SANDI Was it the first time that Mpati Goniwe asked you to carry out an order, as a member of MK? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. ADV SANDI After this incident, did he ever ask you to carry out a similar order in your capacity as a member of MK? MR CEKWANA After this incident I never received any instruction because I was arrested. ADV SANDI Did you receive any training as a member of MK? Were you a trained soldier? MR CEKWANA Yes, that is correct, Your Honour. ADV SANDI Where were you trained? MR CEKWANA Around Mdantsane. ADV SANDI What were you trained on, what was the nature of this training? MR CEKWANA It was physical training, disassembling and assembling. ADV SANDI Who was training you? MR CEKWANA Comrade Mpati Goniwe. And on firing. ADV SANDI Were you the only person who received that training? MR CEKWANA The three of us we received that training. ADV SANDI Who is "the three of us" that you are talking about? MR CEKWANA It is comrade Dudumane Bobie and Lamla Mnadu and myself. ADV SANDI How long did that training take? MR CEKWANA I think it took something like six months. ADV SANDI Was anyone of you given a codename to use as a member of MK? MR CEKWANA No-one of us was given a codename. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nyoka, is there anything else? MR NYOKA Nothing else, Mr Chairperson. I would like this witness to stand down. I will call Mr Dudumane Bobie. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Cekwana, you are excused. Perhaps you can just move. Just move to the next seat and Mr Bobie can take the seat behind the microphone. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON In what language is Mr Bobie going to testify? MR BOBIE Xhosa. CHAIRPERSON Can you just give your full names for the record first. MR BOBIE Dudumane Bobie. CHAIRPERSON Bobie. Is it B-O-B-I-E? DUDUMANE MORRIS BOBIE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka, you may proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Bobie, you are aware of why you are here today, not so? MR BOBIE Yes, I am aware. MR NYOKA Do you know the applicant in this matter? MR BOBIE Yes, I know him. MR NYOKA Regarding this incident, what was his relation to you? His relationship to you? MR BOBIE We were serving in the executive of the ANC, we were also involved with the underground movement of the ANC. MR NYOKA When was that? MR BOBIE I worked with him from 1992, but I was already working there for a long time before that. MR NYOKA I see you've prepared your own notes, maybe you want to read from your own notes briefly. Can you do so? I don't want to distract you. MR BOBIE "Nkuleko Cekwana was the dedicated member of the ANC and serving in its executive structure. He was also serving in the underground structures of Umkhonto weSizwe. Because of the brutalities of the notorious Gqozo regime the comrade decided that doing nothing is always encouraging the enemy to carry on with its dirty missions, without obstruction and there will never be peace unless we hit back at the Security Forces and hit where it hurts. The incident of the Bisho massacre is one of the serious reasons that has caused a profound hatred and a need to retaliate against the regime. Above all Nkuleko has never been involved in any criminal activity in his life, but because of the burning desire to remove the shackles of the Gqozo regime, to create a free political activity and peace in which Gqozo was an obstacle, comrades were forced to do everything in their own disposal to ...(indistinct). It is a great pity that people like policeman Sanuse becomes an sacrificial lamb of the struggle to oust Gqozo. Because ousting Gqozo is part and parcel of the broader campaign to remove the apartheid regime. And this has caused some serious results, caused to turn brother against brother and divided our society." MR NYOKA The applicant has stated that he committed the offences of murder and robbery of a firearm pursuing a political objective. Do you confirm or deny that? MR BOBIE As I have already said, that is correct. MR NYOKA Was he acting under the instruction of his commander, one Mpati Goniwe? MR BOBIE That is correct. MR NYOKA Was there a rule that if you operated from a certain zone, you could not operate beyond that zone? Was there such a rule of not, to your knowledge? MR BOBIE As I have said in my statement, to remove Gqozo was part and parcel of a broader campaign to remove the apartheid regime. You did not have to be in one place and be involved in operations in one place, you can even go to Cape Town if there is such an order. MR NYOKA Did the applicant take anything else beyond the firearms after the unfortunate killing, from the deceased? MR BOBIE You mean anything that he took? Will you please repeat the question? MR NYOKA Did he take anything of the property of the deceased after the killing, besides the firearm? Like money or clothing etc? MR BOBIE I do not think so, because this comrade was never a criminal in his life. He was never involved in any robbery. Even if you can trace his record you will find that he was never a criminal. MR NYOKA Do you have any knowledge whether he was at a shebeen earlier, before this incident? MR BOBIE He doesn't drink alcohol, he's got nothing to do with a shebeen. I have no knowledge of that because I was not there, but I do not think so because he does not take alcohol. MR NYOKA That is all, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Nyoka. Ms Thabethe, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Just one, Mr Chair. Mr Bobie, you've given the Committee the background, the political motive behind the killing of Sergeant Sanuse. Were you involved in any way in this incident? MR BOBIE Yes, I am involved because during the planning I was present, though I was not present during the incident itself. MS THABETHE Sorry, I didn't quite catch - what do you say? Where were you, were you there? MR BOBIE Yes, I am involved because during the planning I was involved, though I was not present during the incident when it was taking place. MS THABETHE No further questions, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Thabethe. ADV SANDI Can you tell us what happened at this planning meeting? You say you were there when the attack was being planned, what do you mean by that? MR BOBIE There was not much in the planning. I am putting it in that manner, but there was no real plan. But we had to continue with the campaign of hitting the Security Forces because this policeman was one of the policemen that was identified. ADV SANDI Was there any particular reason why this particular policeman was identified? MR BOBIE No, there was no specific reason. As Nkuleko had explained that we did not even know this policeman, but the campaign was to hit each and every policeman to drive them away from the community. He was not even known for that matter. ADV SANDI Who was the first person to mention his name? MR BOBIE The person who said there was a policeman at NU6 that should be surveilled and be reconnoitred, it was Mpati Goniwe and there was another guy by the name of Bongani, who knew this policeman. ADV SANDI Where were you when this planning meeting took place? MR BOBIE I was in the meeting at the time. ADV SANDI Where was that - where did you meet and talk about the action that had to be taken against the police? I'm talking about the meeting where you say Mr Mpati Goniwe mentioned the name of the policeman, Mr Sanuse. MR BOBIE As I've already said it was not a serious meeting, it was just a briefing to say what should happen. We did not have lengthy meetings, it was just a briefing of what was going to happen and thereafter we would disperse. We wouldn't have a meeting with a real forum, it was just a short briefing. ADV SANDI Ja, but was that at NU3, NU4? Which unit was it? MR BOBIE It was a branch of NU3 and 4. As we had so many branches in Mdantsane, those areas were divided into branches according to ANC demarcation. ADV SANDI Yes, but in your knowledge, were there no police who could be attacked at NU3 and NU4, where you had met and discussed? MR BOBIE You mean where we had met for discussions? I do not understand your question, will you please repeat, Sir. ADV SANDI At that stage, were you aware of any members of the Ciskei Police Force, who resided at NU3 and 4, who could be attacked in the same way as Mr Sanuse? MR BOBIE To attack who? Will you please clarify your question before I respond to it? ...(no English interpretation). ADV SANDI Let me try and understand you. Are you saying this is not a meeting that was convened specifically to discuss how members of the Ciskei Police Force were going to be attacked? Is that what you are saying? MR BOBIE I said we were at a meeting, not the underground meeting. We would be given an order. It was just a short meeting during the briefing. We were at the community meeting, not the underground structure. There's a briefing and a meeting. When this was taking place we were at a meeting in a different meeting. I was in the meeting of the community and Lamla was in the SACP meeting. ADV SANDI Did you know of any police who were staying at NU3 and NU4? MR BOBIE Yes, there were some, but they were no longer staying there at 3, the police that I knew. There were no policemen at that time at NU3. ADV SANDI Where were they? MR BOBIE They were staying at 17 and the others were at Bisho. ADV SANDI Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair. DR TSOTSI What was your purpose in killing this policeman, Sanuse? MR BOBIE The aim was to attack each and every person who was used as Gqozo's took, because Gqozo was regarded as a monster who led the killing the Bisho people. And the people were living under threat, they couldn't hold meetings freely. Everything that had something to do with fear or in politics. DR TSOTSI Are you saying that the purpose was to hit at Gqozo's regime? MR BOBIE The aim was to hurt where possible, where people would feel because we were tired of burying our own people. DR TSOTSI Now my question is, were you aiming at hitting at Gqozo? Was that the purpose of the mission? MR BOBIE The aim of the mission was to isolate Gqozo and hit his Security Forces, so that the situation that was happening in KwaZulu Natal shouldn't take place because it looked like these police were giving weapons to criminals. We were foreseeing a situation that was similar to the one that was taking place in KwaZulu Natal, happening in the Eastern Cape. DR TSOTSI Yes. Was that the only reason for attacking this policeman? MR BOBIE There were so many reasons, but it will be difficult to mention all of them here, not unless I had compiled something. But I am just saying what I think right now. DR TSOTSI Please don't mention all of them, just mention two or three reasons. MR BOBIE The first reason. We wanted to isolate Gqozo and his government. Secondly, we were tired of burying our own comrades time and again. The comrades that we buried at Bisho, that was very painful to us. We wanted them to bury also. Because the police were used as Gqozo's tools, they had also decided to stand with him. We wanted to hurt him, Gqozo that is, with his members. DR TSOTSI Did the applicant know that the purpose of the mission was to hurt Gqozo, Gqozo's regime? MR BOBIE I do not want to commit myself to that statement of hurting Gqozo, but we wanted to drive away the white regime of which Gqozo was among the structures that were established by those whites. Therefore we were fighting with him. DR TSOTSI What I want to know is whether the applicant knew what this purpose was, the purpose of this mission? MR BOBIE Yes, he knew. DR TSOTSI Because I don't recall that he mentioned the name of Gqozo - I may be mistaken, in his evidence at all. MR BOBIE As I'm saying, there is a number of reason. The most important reason was to remove the boer regime. Gqozo were the puppets of that government. He can mention it or he can mention it in a different manner. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Have you got any re-examination, Mr Nyoka? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA Just for interest's sake, one question, Mr Chairperson. Mr Bobie, you identified the Gqozo regime as the chief enemy in the former Ciskei, not so? MR BOBIE That is correct. MR NYOKA And that the Ciskei Police and soldiers were part of his regime, not so? MR BOBIE That is correct. MR NYOKA What I want to know is, did you isolate the so-called South African Police, which was also in that area of the border area, did you isolate, did you separate them from a mission or did you just concentrate on the Ciskei Police? Out of interest. MR BOBIE The South African Police were very scarce in Ciskei. They were very scarce and therefore it was difficult to notice them, it was not easy. Even if they were there, it was not easy to notice because the Ciskeian Police were among the community. The South African Police were working without uniform, therefore it was not easy for us to identify them. MR NYOKA No further questions, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Nyoka. Mr Bobie, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for the applicant? MR NYOKA That is the case, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Thabethe, is there any other evidence? MS THABETHE No, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nyoka, any submissions? MR NYOKA IN ARGUMENT Yes, Mr Chairperson. Firstly, I wish to start with the concerns raised from the side of the family, before coming to my address. The order was given by applicant's senior to attack the policeman at zone 6 and as a command member the applicant had no option to refuse that order, despite the fact that he had to attack someone outside his zone. In fact, there is no evidence that applicant had to restrict his movements or activities solely to his zones 3 and 4. Secondly, the fact that the applicant did not attack a policeman in his zone and instead attacked that of a different zone, is immaterial in that there's been no evidence led as a basis of fact that in fact there were Ciskei policemen or women residing in zones 3 and 4 at that time. Not before, at that time. We can only speculate as widely as possible on this issue, but there has to be a factual basis on which you can then apply the law. Thirdly, the applicant flatly denied having come out of a shebeen before the killing. Be that as it may, the fact that the applicant could have been coming out of a shebeen does not take the matter further either as it was not stated exactly when he was seen coming out of the shebeen and what he's been doing there. It is not moral wrong to just come out of a shebeen, there could be good and compelling reasons from coming out of a shebeen. He could have been trying to recruit other people to join that struggle at the time, or it could have been an attempt to pluck up courage for what he was to do. So that is also immaterial. Fourthly, to show that the applicant was carrying out a political mission with a political objective it's that firstly, he did not know the deceased before the incident. Secondly, he had never seen him before except at the very last moment. The only reasonable inference that could be drawn therefore is that he was pursuing a political agenda, not a criminal one. Otherwise, what would be the motive of a criminal one without further acts of robbery, taking his property or money or petrol or clothing. What would be the motive? The only other inference could be an indication of insanity, he could have been insane and there is no evidence to that effect. He was not insane. At this stage I would like to hand over a book called the African National Congress and the Negotiated Settlement in South Africa, page 125. Unfortunately the photocopier is not working here, I could have made copies. I hope I won't forget it, Mr Chairperson, I won't forget my book. That passage, when I looked at it last night, summarises this case appositely. There the writer quotes the Radio Freedom broadcast at page 125, where I've made a mark, which was made in 1988, where the announcers made the following remarks: "Where are the weapons to destroy this regime? They cannot be found anywhere else countrymen. They can only be found in our country itself. The weapons are there in front of you, they are in the hands of the policemen themselves. Some of these policemen are coming back to sleep within our midst in the townships. We know where they live, let us break into their houses and take those guns that the apartheid regime gave them to kill us and turn those guns against them. Let us break into their barracks and take those guns and machine guns. We should attack the police stations, army barracks and capture those weapons." What the applicant did was to follow exactly the said instruction, which summarised the general position, approach and stance of the ANC and its subsidiary or parallel structures. If one has to take weapons from a police person or soldier, whether from his or her person or property, one would expect militant resistance proportionate to the use of dangerous means like firearms. The matter is not as simple as taking a lollipop from a baby or from a toddler. One must reasonably expect equal resistance from such police persons. The sole purposes - even police persons or soldiers themselves of areas like Ciskei and Boputhatswana, expected such attacks on them, for the sole purpose of seizing weaponry from them and that if they resisted they would be killed. The sole purposes of which was politically motivated, not criminal robbery or criminal murder. If I can put it like that. The aim was to defend the community and to advance the cause of freedom. The agents of this were the MK and Self Defence Units. In this instance the applicant was acting within the structure of the MK. The Ciskei regime of the time, that is - and in the period of 1992/1993, vigorously opposed the liberation movements and the liberation trend and survived only through its enforcement forces like the Ciskei Police and Ciskei Army. So it had to be - the police or the Ciskei Army had to be incapacitated by being struck right at the soul of its continued survival, the police and the army, and the cardinal disablement of such forces by taking away their weaponry. The Bisho massacre of the previous year was a declaration of war and the acts of the applicant was an act of self defence of the people of that area. The applicant did nothing else like robbing the deceased of his property or personal belongings, despite having ample opportunity of doing so. He just took the firearm, which was his mandate in the very first place. Late 1992 was the year of the Bisho massacre, which happened in the area of the applicant. Also the following year we must note, on the 10th of April, it was the unfortunate and shocking death of Chris Hani. So it was an area of great political turbulence and emotional trauma. The weapons used to shoot the Bisho victims were those of the Ciskei law enforcers, the soldiers and the police, and steps had been taken to remove such weaponry so as to disable such forces. The applicant by his actions, was busy doing that job of minimising similar Bisho massacres and ...(indistinct) striking the cause of freedom. His actions therefore were politically motivated and the applicant has made a full disclosure of all relevant facts and there was a clear political objective being pursued. The fact that there were briefings and there were no elaborate lengthy meetings with technicalities does not mean that there was no political objective, as long as sight is not lost of the fact that it was a people's war and people had to use rudimentary means and rudimentary ideas in pursuance of a political objective. It did not have to be a neat sophisticated modus operandi. I therefore ask that the Committee should grant the applicant amnesty. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Nyoka. ADV SANDI Sorry, just one thing, Mr Nyoka. Is it not the position here that in the context of this violent conflict the applicant is talking about, even a so-called you know, a good policeman, a good policeman who goes about doing his job in a professional way without harassing people, without interfering with anyone, he would also be affected in that situation, not so, because of the perception you have, the hostility you have towards members of the Police Force? He would be affected. MR NYOKA Narrowly speaking he will be affected, but a good policeman would resign from such an obnoxious force and say I'm resigning, I don't want to be part of this lest I be affected. That would be a good policeman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but obviously we're not living in an ideal world, so it might be a way of approaching it, but there were some policemen who had to just earn a living and they would fall into the category that my colleague referred to, as good policemen. But that is not - it's was just a reality of the situation it seems, at that time. MR NYOKA Yes. Also - or let me not talk about a good one, a wise one would say let me move to a Bisho barrack so that I can be away from a firing zone. A wise one would do that. But sight should not be lost of the fact that the Act states - I mean the requirements are that, did you have a political motive in doing this and did you perceive that person to be an opponent or an opposition of the struggle? And if the answer is yes to both, then the actions are justifiable legally, in terms of the TRC Act. However good that person is - and it is not suggested at the all that the person is a bad person, but he was in a bad position. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think that was the point that my colleague was wanting you to comment on, that of course the incident is no reflection on the situation of the victim. Yes, Ms Thabethe, have you got any submissions? MS THABETHE IN ARGUMENT Briefly, Mr Chair. My instructions, as I had earlier on specified, are that the family was concerned - actually talking about the issue of a good policeman, the father had mentioned to me that his son was a good policeman, he used to help the comrades. But I hope my learned colleague has answered his concerns, so I won't repeat anything to that effect. Their concerns basically were that he was a good policeman and they did not understand why he was attacked in NU6, when the applicant had jurisdiction in NU3 and 4, and I think my learned colleague has addressed that issue. Especially the father also had a concern about the fact that apparently the applicant, when they attacked the deceased, they were coming from a shebeen, and my learned colleague has addressed that as well and I hope he was satisfied with the answer. As an Evidence Leader I don't have any argument except to say that it appears that the act that the applicant committed satisfies the requirements of the Act, so I have no objection if amnesty is granted. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Ms Thabethe. Is there anything further that you wanted to add, Mr Nyoka? MR NYOKA No, Mr Chairperson. MS THABETHE Mr Chair, may I interpose? CHAIRPERSON Yes, of course. MS THABETHE Maybe I can just put it on record that the family told me that the deceased had two kids that he left behind, a girl that was born in 1988 and a boy that was born in 1991, and the victim's next-of-kin that are here today are the father and the mother. And I would recommend that they be recommended for R&R. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much, Ms Thabethe, we've noted that information. Yes, that concludes this application. The Panel will consider the matter and will inform the interested parties as soon as the decision in the matter is available. It just remains for us to thank the legal representatives, Mr Nyoka, for your assistance and Ms Thabethe, and to thank the family of the deceased for being present and for having participated in the proceedings. We express the hope that through being present here today, they have learnt perhaps some more detail about the tragedy that has befallen the family. And in particular we have noted the fact that the deceased has left behind dependants and we've got the details of those dependants and we will deal with that. The question that Ms Thabethe has raised we will deal with in your decision. MS THABETHE As the Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON Does that conclude the roll for today, Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE It definitely does, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Well under those circumstances we are going to adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene tomorrow morning at nine thirty. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS