amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-07-28 DURBAN 3 CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA AM5015/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53573&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99072630_dbn_990728db.htm ON RESUMPTION MS LOCKHAT The next amnesty applicant is Mr Cornelius Botha. CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA (sworn states) MR MALAN You may be seated. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Van der Walt? EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Botha, you are applying for amnesty and your application can be found in Volume 1, from page 249 to page 251, that would be the official amnesty application form and the content is in page 252, the motivation and political background, from page 256 to 263, do you confirm the content thereof? MR BOTHA That is correct, yes. MS VAN DER WALT During the incident which took place on the 12th of June 1988 in Swaziland, where were you stationed at that time? MR BOTHA At Piet Retief Security Branch. MS VAN DER WALT How long were you stationed there? MR BOTHA From 1981 to 1994. MS VAN DER WALT Under whose command were you? MR BOTHA Warrant Officer Freek Pienaar. MS VAN DER WALT Piet Retief was part of which region? MR BOTHA It was in the Eastern Transvaal region, below Ermelo. MS VAN DER WALT You were involved in the incident regarding Mr Ras, Tait and Van Dyk gave evidence during which a person was shot dead in Swaziland, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT In paragraph 1, on page 252 you state that you received instructions to arrest the persons who were assisting the MK members in infiltrating the RSA? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Can you explain that please? MR BOTHA Chairperson, on that day we were requested or at least we received the instruction from Colonel Van Dyk, and because I worked under Freek Pienaar, to cross the border and to then attempt to arrest those persons who were going to infiltrate the RSA and to eliminate them, to shoot them. MS VAN DER WALT Was there a specific reason why they requested you to accompany? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I knew the area and I also knew where we would be able to leave the vehicle on the RSA side of the border, at a point where it would be most easy to enter. MS VAN DER WALT Did you know where these persons were going to cross the border? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct, I knew. MS VAN DER WALT How did you know and where would they cross the border? MR BOTHA The place was indicated to me by Warrant Officer Pienaar when he indicated to the persons who had to pick up as a result of the information that we received. MS VAN DER WALT Was this at a normal border post or where was it? MR BOTHA It was an illegal crossing, it was over the border fence. MS VAN DER WALT This specific place, was it a singular place where persons had crossed, or was it more frequently used? MR BOTHA This was the first time that I recall somebody crossing the border at that point. MS VAN DER WALT You state in the second paragraph that you and Captain Paul van Dyk and Martiens Ras entered Swaziland, you do not state anything about Mr Tait, is there any reason for that? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I wasn't very familiar with all the members from C1 and during the time when I made the statement, I could not recall what the fourth person's name was. MS VAN DER WALT You also state and this is in paragraph 2, that there was an attempt to arrest the persons, do you wish to explain that? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, there wasn't an actual attempt, I meant it more in the sense that we would have wanted to make an attempt to arrest these persons. MS VAN DER WALT What was your instruction when you arrived there at the scene? MR BOTHA At the scene it was dark and if I describe the scene, it would be after we took up positions. MS VAN DER WALT Yes? MR BOTHA The instruction there was that we would shoot when they arrived because arrest was completely out of the question. There would be no opportunity for an arrest, that was too dangerous. MS VAN DER WALT Under whose instruction did you act there at the scene? MR BOTHA Under Warrant Officer Van Dyk. MS VAN DER WALT What took place? MR BOTHA We took up positions, we lay down and waited for quite a while for these persons and we heard them returning, we could hear them speaking, they moved around the vehicle. I had a light which I had to switch on as soon as the shooting commenced and for a moment, the persons were quiet and then the shooting ensued. I, myself, am not certain whether the shooting originated from our side or from the other side, I just know that the shooting commenced, it began and everybody started shooting. MS VAN DER WALT What did you do after that? MR BOTHA Shortly after the shooting, I switched on the light, we moved closer, I looked for the other person, whether we could see him. Next to the car was a deceased person who lay there. I shot the petrol tank of the vehicle to pieces and to tell the truth, I heard Mr Ras' evidence now, I thought that I was the one who set the vehicle alight, but it was him. It may be that he had matches and approached the vehicle and set it alight with the matches. MS VAN DER WALT Because you state in paragraph 3 that you set the vehicle alight, is that the way you recall it? MR BOTHA Yes, that is how I recalled it. MS VAN DER WALT Did you hear when the persons arrived there at the scene when you lay there, before the persons were taken over the border, whether any firearms were cocked as the vehicle stopped there? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. My evidence differs from the others in that regard, but I heard four firearms being cocked, I counted them specifically. MS VAN DER WALT Did you have a good knowledge of firearms, can you tell the Committee what knowledge of firearms you have and what enabled you to determine this? MR BOTHA I cannot say that these were AK's, we just assumed that they were AK47's, but the gun that was being cocked was definitely a gun, I knew that there were five guns. They were successively cocked, not simultaneously. MS VAN DER WALT And there is a definite difference between a gun and the usual hand firearm, one could hear the difference when a firearm is being cocked? MR BOTHA At that distance I could hear that it was definitely a firearm. ADV GCABASHE Could I just get a bit of clarity, the Interpreter said that I knew that there were five firearms and yet, just a few minutes before that, what I heard was that four firearms had been cocked. I am not sure if we are talking of four or five now? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, I know the others said that they heard four, but when I counted, I counted five. It may be that I may be incorrect, but I recall it as such. ADV GCABASHE You have to take me along with you, you heard four being cocked, you counted five. When did you count the five? MR BOTHA When they were being cocked. ADV GCABASHE You heard five being cocked? CHAIRPERSON I had the same note as Adv Gcabashe, that it was first of all mentioned four and then five, but it seems that it was five that you heard? MR BOTHA Five that I counted being cocked, yes. INTERPRETER I beg your pardon Chairperson, it was actually my mistake, I misheard the applicant, I thought it was four initially. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS VAN DER WALT And after the incident, you said that you switched on a light, were any firearms found next to the vehicle? MR BOTHA Next to the person who had been shot dead, there was a firearm, a Makarov which lay next to him. MS VAN DER WALT And did you then depart from the scene? MR BOTHA After the vehicle had been set alight, we left the scene. MS VAN DER WALT Were you in any way involved in the shooting incident which took place on that same night on the South African side of the border? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. While it may have been a simultaneous incident, there was separate planning and execution. MS VAN DER WALT But you knew that there would be a shooting incident on the other side? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And you are then requesting amnesty for the murder of this one person? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And any other judgement emanating from that? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT As well as for any illegal act which may emanate from the incident? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Prinsloo, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Botha, during your period of service at the Security Branch in Piet Retief, were you involved in investigations during which members of the ANC or MK were involved in various acts of violence? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Before these events? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Cornelius. Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH MR JANSEN No questions Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Knight? MR KNIGHT No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY No questions, thank you Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Moerane? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE Mr Chairperson, I have a slight problem. CHAIRPERSON Is it the quality of the photocopying, with that line across the middle? MR MOERANE If somebody can just tell me what is under the, what the words are under that? CHAIRPERSON Yes, my copy is the same as yours Mr Moerane, it appears it is the same with all three of ours. Ms Van der Walt, is there an unblemished statement? MS VAN DER WALT I've just got the one that my client's got, but he has written a sentence at the top, but he testified as to what he ... CHAIRPERSON No, all Mr Moerane wants to know, if you take a look at paragraph 2. MS VAN DER WALT I can just read it to him. CHAIRPERSON Paragraph 2, yes, and perhaps if you can just read it slow enough for Mr Moerane and others to write it down, the obliterated part. It says ... MS VAN DER WALT I know what it is, I will read it. "... after they had taken the MK members over the RSA border ...", have you got that Mr Moerane? MR MOERANE Yes, if you can just proceed slowly thereafter. MS VAN DER WALT: "... we made an attempt to arrest them." MR MOERANE Is that the end of the sentence? MS VAN DER WALT Yes. MR MOERANE Thank you very much. MS VAN DER WALT Have you got "... however, they had firearms." Have you got that? "... shots were fired in the dark and we also fired." CHAIRPERSON Yes, yes, we've got that section. MR MOERANE Thank you. Mr Botha, one of the rules that a policeman follows is taking instructions from his superiors, not so? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MOERANE And those instructions have to be in very clear terms so that you know precisely what is expected of you? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MOERANE What were your instructions with regard to this mission? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it was to go over and according to my opinion, as I understood it, if there was an opportunity to arrest, we would arrest the person primarily to prevent that we do not endanger the rest of the operation while the persons were still under way to the border. And if the option presented itself on the other side, we would also shoot these persons. MR MOERANE It is not quite clear to me what your instructions were, just tell us in very simple language what your instructions were. Were your instructions to kill these people or were your instructions to arrest them because the two differ totally? MR BOTHA Yes, there wasn't one single instruction according to my opinion, there were two. We could arrest them if the circumstances allowed, and if the circumstances did not allow it, we would shoot to kill. MR MOERANE Is there any reason why you did not mention that part, shoot to kill, in your statement? MR BOTHA No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Moerane, if I could just ask a question, I can't, are you saying Mr Botha and I gather this also from the evidence of Mr Ras and Mr Tait and Mr Van Dyk, that if they had left a guard at the vehicle while the other two went off with the people who were to infiltrate, you would have arrested that guard because you couldn't have shot him because the noise would have alerted the people on their way to the border and that would have affected the whole operation, is that what you are saying? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct, we would try to arrest if it was possible. CHAIRPERSON Let's take the scene, they do leave a guard and they go off and you arrest a person there, what are you going to do with this arrested person? MR BOTHA We couldn't arrest him, we would have to abduct him to the RSA for further interrogation. CHAIRPERSON But you might also have to kill him because he would just have to open his mouth while he is in your control and that would also give away your position when the others came back? MR BOTHA Chairperson, we did not discuss this issue under those circumstances there, but I don't believe we would have killed him, that wasn't part of our instruction. CHAIRPERSON It would seem unlikely that you would have, you would say to him "keep quiet" and just rely on him keeping quiet while the others returned? MR BOTHA We might possibly have to do that if we arrested him. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Moerane? MR MOERANE Mr Botha, Were your instructions not very clear that you had to eliminate these people? MR BOTHA According to my understanding it was very clear, if we could not arrest, we had to take them out. We had to shoot. MR MOERANE Just for the record, your statement is one of those that was made at Delmas? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MOERANE On the 12th of December? MR BOTHA It may have been the 12th Chairperson. MR MOERANE On page 251 it says the 12th of December, Delmas. MR BOTHA Chairperson, yes, if it is the 12th, I cannot recall whether I signed it on the 12th or whether I made the statement on the 12th. I visited Delmas twice, the first time when I made the statement, to consult with my legal representatives and then two or three days later, I returned to sign the statement. MR MOERANE Is it correct that you did not try to arrest any of these people? MR BOTHA No, we did not attempt to arrest them. MR MOERANE Why did you say that you made an attempt to arrest them? MR BOTHA It was presented incorrectly, I remember that I wrote something there because no attempt was made to arrest, it was more to the effect that we would make an attempt if we could, or if we had to. MR MOERANE How long have you been a member of the South African Police Force? MR BOTHA 26 years. MR MOERANE And I take it you have made many statements, many affidavits in the course of your ... MR BOTHA Yes, I made many. MR MOERANE Yes, and I take it you read them carefully before you sign them or attest them? MR BOTHA Usually, yes. MR MOERANE And I assume that in this instance, you actually did that because you first consulted and then a statement was taken from you, it was presented to you to confirm its correctness? MR BOTHA Yes, I believe that I did study it thoroughly. MR MOERANE Just give this Honourable Committee an idea of how the shooting came about, where were you, where was the other person or the other persons? MR BOTHA Chairperson, we were in a straight line of four persons. If I recall correctly, I was on the right point above, I cannot recall who was on my left, I don't know whether it was Mr Van Dyk or one of the other persons, I know that there was another person further on to the left. I don't have the correct sequence of the persons. CHAIRPERSON Were you laying in touching distance from each other or were you spread out over a far greater distance between, the person on the extreme right ... MR BOTHA I would say about two to three metres. CHAIRPERSON From the extreme right person to the extreme left, or two to three metres between each person? MR BOTHA Between each person. MR MOERANE How far was the motor vehicle from you? MR BOTHA Approximately as far as the chairs behind you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Moerane, that would be about five paces, would you say? The chairs behind Mr Moerane? MR BOTHA I would say 15, that would be my estimation. CHAIRPERSON Oh, 15? MR BOTHA From there to there, yes. MR MOERANE Yes, that sounds about right. How was this motor vehicle positioned, what position was it facing in relation to your position? MR BOTHA Facing to my side. CHAIRPERSON Was it side on or was the headlights pointing towards you or the taillights, side on? MR BOTHA No, it was the side, the right side was towards me. CHAIRPERSON That is the driver's side? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MR MOERANE Yes, and what did you see? MR BOTHA It was dark, I couldn't see much. We heard the persons approaching and the one person walked on the one side of the motor vehicle as I could see, and the other, walked on my side of the vehicle. They were speaking as they arrived, but for a short while, just before they climbed back into the car, there was silence as if they had noticed something. That is when the shots went off, that is when we began shooting. MR MOERANE Were you able to see the person on the driver's side of the motor vehicle? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MOERANE What about the other person, were you able to see him? MR BOTHA Yes, I saw him. MR MOERANE Well, you see, my instructions are that the second person who was not near the car, instructed that he had actually gone to attend to a call of nature. MR BOTHA That may be so, then I may have seen him where he answered the call of nature. MR MOERANE That is why he escaped, because he was not right there where you were shooting? MR BOTHA That is possible because he was on the other side of the vehicle. The distance between him and the vehicle, I cannot say how great that distance was. MR MOERANE How come is it that you do not know who fired first? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I didn't see a flash from the other side and naturally as I was positioned, or where I was positioned the grass was tall and I wasn't watching the people on our side, I simply heard the shots. MR MOERANE Was it dark there? MR BOTHA It was dark, yes. MR MOERANE Is it correct that if you fire a firearm in the dark, you can see the flash of light? MR BOTHA Yes, with certain firearms you can see the flash, others have extinguishers which enables you not to see the flame. MR MOERANE Well, let's assume that it was a Makarov being fired there, Makarov without a silencer, an ordinary Makarov, would you have been able to see the flash? MR BOTHA Yes, I believe I would have seen it then. MR MOERANE And you did not see it? MR BOTHA No, I didn't see it. MR MOERANE That area was quiet and dark, not so? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MOERANE Would it be reasonable to infer from what you observed therefore that no shot was fired by the person who was on the driver's side? MR BOTHA That may be. MR MOERANE Why did you set this motor vehicle on fire? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it was used by the enemy and we would do everything in our power to disable their logistics. MR MOERANE The intention was to disable the ANC as you perceived the situation, by destroying their transport? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MOERANE Was it necessary to have this person set on fire or to find himself in a position where he would be burnt? MR BOTHA It probably wasn't necessary. MR MOERANE Why was it done? MR BOTHA I don't think that that person was our primary interest at that stage, we did what we had to do, we wanted to finish the job and we wanted to get away. MR MOERANE Wasn't the whole intention to burn him so that he could not be identified? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. MR MOERANE My instructions are that when he was burnt, he was actually in the car? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. MR MOERANE I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Moerane. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Just one question, thank you Chairperson. Mr Botha, just the one aspect regarding the issue that you said, the attempt to arrest them on page 252 of your amnesty application form, you said that statement is incorrect? MR BOTHA That is correct, no attempt was made to arrest. MS LOCKHAT At which stage did you realise that this was an incorrect statement? MR BOTHA When I read it here. MS LOCKHAT Because none of the other applicants said that there was an attempt to arrest per se, it was that it was an ambush, clearly to them it was an ambush. Is it because theirs is conflicting with yours and therefore you are now changing your version? MR BOTHA No Chairperson, I think that we have made different inferences. I work on the supposition that there will be arrests and that there will be information about activities. It may be that we regarded the instruction differently or understood it differently. In my mind the idea was that if we could undertake an arrest, we would do so. MS LOCKHAT It just seems strange that all this time from 1997 when you handed in this application to the Commission, this statement of yours was perfectly correct until the stage of this hearing today? MR BOTHA I didn't have any copy of the statement at my disposal, I never kept it at my home. From the time that I read it there and the time that I signed it, until today, I have not seen it again. MS LOCKHAT Is it correct that you only applied for two incidents, the Nesden and this incident? MR BOTHA That is correct, yes. MS LOCKHAT So didn't you regard this as an important issue, these two applications that you actually didn't even have a copy with you? MR BOTHA No, to tell you the truth, I may have underestimated the Amnesty Committee, I saw myself as a member of a war situation, I did not see any problems. I was always working in the execution of my duties, with no other thoughts than that. MS LOCKHAT Who was your Commander at this time, was it Mr Pienaar? MR BOTHA That is correct. MS LOCKHAT After this incident, did you report every detail of the incident to your Commander? MR BOTHA I don't know whether I reported every detail, but I gave him the overview of what took place and that would be everything, that would be the overview. MS LOCKHAT Did you inform him when you did report back to him, that you killed a person? MR BOTHA That is correct. MS LOCKHAT And what was his response? MR BOTHA I think he congratulated me, we did what we were supposed to do. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Ms Van der Walt, do you have any re-examination? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions? ADV GCABASHE Yes, thank you Chair. On the same point of Commanders, for this particular operation, Mr De Kock was your Commander? MR BOTHA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE And he gave you instruction as to what to do once you got to Swaziland? MR BOTHA That is correct, he and Warrant Officer Pienaar assisted with the instructions. ADV GCABASHE You were physically there when he gave the instruction? MR BOTHA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Did he explain who the persons were who he was expecting you to encounter on the other side, in terms of their status? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE What did he say? MR BOTHA He said that these were MK members from Swaziland, who were busy infiltrating other members into the Republic. ADV GCABASHE And the impression that you were left with was that they were possibly senior to the people who were coming in? MR BOTHA That is possible. ADV GCABASHE You see, he says in his evidence, if I have recorded it correctly, that the instruction to you was to eliminate these people, I actually looked for the spot. What I have here is he says "I agreed to send C1 members in to kill Commanders", and he mentioned Ndaba who was one of the more senior people there and "anyone with him, they were to be killed." That was his instruction to you, yes? MR BOTHA Chairperson, if I recalled it as clearly as that, I would have said that, but I know that there was a question of arrest because it would make sense. We worked with it, we worked with information. ADV GCABASHE You see, the reason it wouldn't make sense was because the more junior people who were killed by the same group where Mr De Kock was, who were killed, deliberately killed, eliminated, that was the plan. So it makes sense for those people to be killed as he says, and their superiors to be killed. So you eliminate and you eliminate, otherwise you arrest and you arrest, or do I not understand how the mindset and the workings of the Security Branch was at the time? MR BOTHA With respect, I don't think you understand it completely, the senior members would have been able to convey much more information if we could bring them back, but the idea was to kill them. However, the order was dual in nature, if we could arrest them, we would and if we were going to place the other operation in jeopardy, then we would also arrest, but there wasn't any chance for arrest because it wouldn't have been viable for the operation. ADV GCABASHE Of course my understanding is in the context of what Mr De Kock has already told us, that the instruction was to kill? MR BOTHA We killed, yes, and we were there to kill. The instruction was to kill, but with me, there was always the idea or that I understood the instruction as such that arrest was a possibility, if it was possible to execute an arrest. ADV GCABASHE Yes, but this is where my difficulty is, you didn't get that from him. He is the Commander, you do as he tells you to do, because he has a reason for instructing you to do particular things in a particular way? He gives you an instruction and you think otherwise and you do things differently, is that what you say? MR BOTHA It may be so. ADV GCABASHE Whereas at the end of the day, you did exactly as he had told you, you killed? MR BOTHA That is correct Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE I still don't see where the arrest fits in. It is not the instruction, it is not what happened, where does the arrest fit in? MR BOTHA That is how I understood it, I don't know how to answer that. To me the arrest, according to my opinion, the arrest was mentioned if there was a possibility to arrest, then we had to do so, but the information that we had and if it would jeopardise the operation, if it would jeopardise the operation and they were not far enough, then we had to shoot, we would not have shot. We would try and arrest then. I know it sounds complicated, but that is how I understood it. ADV GCABASHE Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN Just for the record, you speak of an arrest, but there was no arrest, executing an arrest in Swaziland? That is an abduction, a kidnapping? MR BOTHA That is true it is abduction in the true sense of the word. MR MALAN And you would have only done so if the opportunity was there on a platter because there was very little chance of catching or abducting people who came across the border with weapons? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MALAN So it could not have been a primary objective or have been an important consideration? MR BOTHA No, it was a small point thereof, but it was a point. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON You say that you picked up the Makarov and then gave it to Mr Ras? MR BOTHA No, I did not pick it up, I don't know who picked it up. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, it must have been Mr Van Dyk. MR BOTHA I just know that the Makarov was with the C1 people, but I did not pick it up or deal with it. CHAIRPERSON What were you armed with? MR BOTHA An R1 rifle. CHAIRPERSON And your colleagues? MR BOTHA I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON Did they have automatic rifles or handguns? MR BOTHA No, they had automatic rifles if I am correct. CHAIRPERSON Any questions arising out of questions put by members of the panel? MS VAN DER WALT Just a single aspect. MR MOERANE Maybe I should go first so that my learned friend has a chance of re-examining. MS VAN DER WALT Sorry, I did not see. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE This question of obtaining information as a result of arrests, that was in particular Warrant Officer Pienaar's field, not so, he is the person who gathered information, he is the person who ran sources, not so? MR BOTHA It was also mine, I was second in command from the establishment of the Branch. MR MOERANE I see. You were second in command? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MOERANE Did you also run sources? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MOERANE In Swaziland? MR BOTHA Yes, in Swaziland. MR MOERANE Mr Theron also ran sources? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR MOERANE Now if your superior Warrant Officer Pienaar says go over and kill the person, he says nothing about arresting, doesn't it imply to you that he does not need that particular person as a source of information? MR BOTHA No, you always need all information, all information that is available. We were an Information Branch, that was the primary objective, to obtain information. MR MOERANE Well, look at the first incident, we have been told that the intention was to kill those people, not to arrest them. MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, I have heard it, I did not know of the intent there. MR MOERANE You see Mr Pienaar and Mr Theron had a very good source, a very well placed source, so they did not need that particular information, do you go along with that? MR BOTHA I don't know, however good this source was, would not have had all the information, it would have been limited to her information. MR MOERANE You see, that is the normal function of a Security Branch office or any policeman concerned with collection of information or Intelligence. MR BOTHA That is correct. That is the primary function, yes. MR MOERANE But here you were involved in a different mission, it was not a question of collection of information, it was a specific mission of elimination? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, sometimes there are instances where one has to act on information. MR MOERANE No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Just a single issue Mr Botha. You were here when Mr De Kock gave evidence about this incident, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And if I recall the words of Mr De Kock as such, I want to know whether you understood it as such. When he gave evidence about this incident, he said there was the idea of to catch these people, he used the word catch. He testified that but the primary purpose was to eliminate them, did you hear that? MR BOTHA My Lord, it could be, I cannot recall his evidence to that extent, but that is how I understood his evidence. MS VAN DER WALT Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, that concludes your evidence Mr Botha, you may now stand down. MR BOTHA Thank you Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED