amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-07-29 DURBAN 4 NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN AM 4358/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53579&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99072630_dbn_990729db.htm ON RESUMPTION MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, the next applicant is Nicholas Vermeulen. NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Cornelius? EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, you have submitted an amnesty application on the prescribed form, in terms of Section 18 of the law and you have given your full co-operation to the investigating officer. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS You were an employee of the SAP, as defined in Section 20(2)(a) and 20(2)(f) of Act 34/95. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS You were deployed to Section C1, known as Vlakplaas. The operations of the unit have been set out in documentation which has already been submitted to this Committee. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS And do you concur that Vlakplaas was a covert counter-insurgency unit and was the operational wing of all the Security Branches in the Republic of South Africa? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS At the time of these incidents you were involved only in the second incident having taken place on the 12th of June 1988. At that time you were a Warrant Officer. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS And Col de Kock was your commander. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You confirm the content of your amnesty application, the general background, your personal history as well as the general merits thereof. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS And you agree that the political objective an action was aimed against the ANC and the communist movements within the Republic, as well as the political insurgency of institutions from abroad. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS At all times you carried out the actions or order of Mr de Kock, strictly and you acted on a need-to-know basis. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS And at all times you acted within the scope of your duties at Vlakplaas. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Now with the second incident at Piet Retief, you were also deployed to the ambush? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS What were you armed with? MR VERMEULEN An R1 gun. MR CORNELIUS Very well. Can you briefly tell us when the vehicle moved in, what happened? MR VERMEULEN We moved in, the vehicle stopped, the driver climbed out and ran around the front of the vehicle into the bushes on the side of the ambush. Because he had moved some distance past the pre-established point, Col de Kock gave the order to move ahead. We left our positions and ran in the direction of the vehicle. MR CORNELIUS What happened next? MR VERMEULEN Shots were fired and after Col de Kock had given the order to cease fire, I took up position next to the bus and waited there. MR CORNELIUS Four persons were killed? MR VERMEULEN Yes, four persons were killed. MR CORNELIUS Had they been armed? MR VERMEULEN Yes, all of them had been armed. MR CORNELIUS You were aware of the practice among the members of C-Section, that they would identify targets and then C1 would be called in to perform the action? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Do you have any reason to doubt the information and orders which were conveyed by de Kock and Pienaar? MR VERMEULEN No. MR CORNELIUS You were a foot-soldier, as is the general description? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS And these armed MK members, did they present any danger towards the Republic, according to your mind? MR VERMEULEN Yes, they did. MR CORNELIUS Did you believe that you were acting in the interests of your country at all times? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS Against the then enemy of the Republic? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS And that you had to combat the insurgency of terrorists? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS With the exception of the salary that you received, in terms of Section 20(3)(f) of the Act of 1995, did you obtain any personal or financial reward for your participation in this action? MR VERMEULEN No. MR CORNELIUS Did you harbour any feelings of personal malice or vengeance towards the victims? MR VERMEULEN No. MR CORNELIUS And according to your knowledge, have you made a full disclosure of the relevant facts for the Committee, in terms of Section 20(1)(c) of the relevant Act? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS You request thus that you be granted amnesty in terms of Section 20 of the Act? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS For four charges of murder emanating from the incident taking place on the 12th of June 1988? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS For your participation in perjury and defeating the ends of justice in the subsequent investigation? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS And then you are also applying for statutory and common-law delicts or any other delicts of offences which may emanate from your participation in the incident. MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Ms van der Walt do you have any questions? MS VAN DER WALT No questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo? NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY No questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Moerane? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, you made two statements relating to this incident. The first statement being the one that you made in preparation for the inquest which was to be held at Piet Retief. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE And the second statement being the one that you have made in respect of your amnesty application. MR VERMEULEN Sorry, just say again, Sir. MR MOERANE The second one being the one in respect of which you are testifying. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Yes. And I assume you are telling this Honourable Committee that the one in bundle 1, page 334 to 335, is the correct one. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE And all that you had said in the Piet Retief statement, the one in preparation for the inquest was false? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Yes. Now I just want to take you through your second statement. You say in the third sentence, that is now with regard to Manzini "He would stop at a certain place with a minibus, climb out and urinate, which would be the signal that the correct people were in the bus." That is correct? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR MOERANE That is actually what was arranged and what was agreed? MR VERMEULEN Ja, that's what was agreed when I received my orders from Mr de Kock. MR MOERANE That's right. And when the rest of you also received instructions from Mr de Kock? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR MOERANE You were all present at the same place and same time, when you were given these instructions and these briefings? MR VERMEULEN Ja, I would say so, but it could be that Mr de Kock gave some order to somebody else at some different time, I'm not sure, I can't say. But when I received my orders, this was roughly what I can remember. MR MOERANE Well, certainly the people from C1 would have received the same orders, in other words yourself and Mr Flores certainly? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR MOERANE And you further say that bus actually went past the prearranged spot, it didn't stop where it was supposed to stop. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE And Col de Kock then gave the order that the bus or the kombi should be attacked? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Sir. MR MOERANE And you all got up and ran towards the kombi. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MR MOERANE With the intention of shooting. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE Is his evidence also correct, that he ran ahead of you? In other words, he was in front. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE And that he was about a metre or two from the left front door of the kombi when he started firing. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE And would I be correct in saying that, as you say in your statement, that you didn't see any shooting from the kombi? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE If anybody had fired from the kombi in your direction, you would have seen that? MR VERMEULEN I think so, yes. MR MOERANE Yes, because you would have been the target. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR MOERANE And it was dark there, you would have seen the flash. MR VERMEULEN The flash, yes. MR MOERANE That's right. And you didn't see any of that? MR VERMEULEN No, Sir. MR MOERANE You say, page 335 "The weapons which we used here were government weapons which were provided from Freek Pienaar's office." Is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE And you say some uncomplimentary things about the state of that weaponry "I can recall that the weapons were in such a bad condition that I had to oil them first before the operation." MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE You recall that? MR VERMEULEN I received an order from Mr de Kock, because he inspected the weapons and they were not in a satisfactory condition. MR MOERANE Yes. In other words, the weapons that you used on that occasion were not weapons which were issued at Vlakplaas, but they were weapons which were issued in Piet Retief? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Was that for the whole - to all the Vlakplaas members, they received Piet Retief weapons? MR VERMEULEN Ja, most of the people, I think so, Sir. MR MOERANE And would I be correct in saying that there was no proper accounting for the weapons and the ammunition, in the sense of signing for the weapons and the ammunition? MR VERMEULEN I won't say that, I would say in the instance the weapons by number weren't booked out to each individual, but each individual received a weapon plus, I think 20 rounds of ammunition, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE Do you remember that? Is it possible that you might have received more ammunition, like 50 rounds rather than 20 rounds? MR VERMEULEN An R1 magazine takes 20 rounds of ammunition and to carry a lot of loose ammunition wouldn't be advisable because it could be lost. And in an ambush situation I don't think we would have used much more than 20. MR MOERANE I seem to recall that some of the people who were there might have used more than that. MR VERMEULEN I won't dispute that, Sir. MR MOERANE Would I be correct in assuming that you spent a couple of days before the second incident, at a place called Island Rock? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Sir. MR MOERANE And the purpose of that gathering has been said to be one of team-building, "spanbou". MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE What does that involved, what actually happened there? MR VERMEULEN "Spanbou" is usually just where the guys come together and they relax. That was the purpose of that special, that specific "spanbou". MR MOERANE Yes, but how did you relax, what were you doing? MR VERMEULEN We were playing touch rugby, we were having a couple of beers, fishing, doing just what everybody wanted to do, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE And were the any sessions where you'd be addressed by Brig Schoon? MR VERMEULEN No, Sir, not that I can remember of, Mr Chair. We did mix with up casually, but not a specific time or whatever. MR MOERANE Was this a holiday or sorts? MR VERMEULEN You can put it like that, Sir. MR MOERANE And you called team-building? MR VERMEULEN That is team-building, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE And this went on for four days? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE Well amongst the people who attended that holiday, or were present, were people who had been involved in a shooting incident on the 8th of June. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE Was that mentioned? MR VERMEULEN I can't recall that, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Well it must have been mentioned, Mr Vermeulen. MR VERMEULEN Mr Chair, as already said, we do work on this must-know basis and if I go on a "spanbou" I don't want to know anything about any other words, except relaxing. So I don't interfere with anybody else's official work, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE No, no, I'm not suggesting that you might have been interfering, but just as part of "spanbou", one of those or two of those who had been involved telling the others that well, we are doing okay, we have actually killed four of them. MR VERMEULEN That's could have happened, but it wasn't in my presence at any stage at that "spanbou", Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE In your activities as part of the C1 unit, you must have engaged in a lot of illegal activities. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Which as we know included murder. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE It included abduction of people. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE It included destruction of property, buildings and motor vehicles. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE It involved covering up those activities. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE By means of lies and other means. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE And the murders also involved silencing people so that they couldn't speak. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Were you in any way congratulated for the killings of the 12th of June? Did anyone say "Well done"? MR VERMEULEN Not that I can think of, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE You know that Mr Adriaan Vlok issued a statement after the second incident, wherein he said nine people had been killed. MR VERMEULEN I just heard about that statement, I didn't read it myself, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Have you received any commendation for the work you did for Vlakplaas? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE From? MR VERMEULEN From the Commissioner of Police, and then we received various certificates, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE What certificates? MR VERMEULEN There was a certificate for recommendation for work that was done satisfactorily, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE I see. In other words, commendation for work well done? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE And who is that Commissioner who commended? MR VERMEULEN I'm not sure, I think it was Commissioner van der Merwe. I'm not sure about that, Sir. MR MOERANE Do you know whether or not at Island Rock, the members of C1 who had taken part in the first incident, were congratulated, commended? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Sir. MR MOERANE Mr Vermeulen, who told you that you could engage in illegal activities against the ANC in particular? MR VERMEULEN All the instances where I was involved, I had the instructions, specific instructions, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Yes, yes, but you see this must have started somewhere. You know that as a policeman you were not obliged to follow illegal instructions, not so? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Well who told you that you could, that you could not disobey, if anyone, such instructions? MR VERMEULEN Our orders that we received from our commanders we just did it properly as was expected from us, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE No-one told you that you could refuse to carry out an illegal, a patently illegal order? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE So would it be correct to say that it was the culture at C1, that illegal acts against the ANC were acceptable? MR VERMEULEN Yes, we can put it that way, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Were there any limits placed to the illegality? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, I think for every action that we would have done or executed, we first had to consult with Mr de Kock and we wouldn't have done anything without his consent, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Yes, but as an individual, did you know of any limits beyond which you couldn't go? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, I was never instructed about any limits, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE You know that in a war situation there are certain limits, which have been codified in various protocols, like the Geneva Convention and the various protocols to that? Treatment of prisoners of war and the rules of engagement in war, you know that? MR VERMEULEN I know that, Mr Chairman. MR MOERANE Well did you observe any such codes in your conduct? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chair. MR MOERANE No. In fact you were actually a law unto yourselves so to speak. MR VERMEULEN We can put it that way, Sir. MR MOERANE I see. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Moerane. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions? MS LOCKHAT No questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, do you have any re-examination? MR CORNELIUS I have no re-examination, thank you, Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Adv Gcabashe, have you any questions you'd like to ask? ADV GCABASHE Yes, thank you, Chair. Mr Vermeulen, the second incident, after the shooting you say you were told to stand by the bus. MR VERMEULEN Yes, you can put it that way, Mr Chairman. ADV GCABASHE Did you have anything to do with checking the weapons that the four deceased had on them? MR VERMEULEN I can't remember. I would have looked at it, but I don't think I handled it at any stage. ADV GCABASHE What I'm interested in is in finding out if any one of them had fired a shot at all, just by checking the magazines to see if they were still fully loaded or not. MR VERMEULEN I didn't check the magazines, but I'm quite sure no shots were fired from out the bus. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Just on that, Mr Vermeulen, were you regarded as an expert when it got to firearms and weapons? MR VERMEULEN I would say so, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Because you did say you were the one who was ordered to oil the firearms and get them into a reasonable condition. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And in your - yes, thank you. Sorry, Mr Malan, do you have any questions? MR MALAN No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, are there any questions arising out of questions put? Thank you, Mr Vermeulen, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down. MR VERMEULEN Thank you, Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED