amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-02 PIETERMARITZBURG 1 TOBIAS RONNIE MBANJWA AM5967/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53583&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99080205_pmb_990802pm.htm CHAIRPERSON You are now calling Mr Mbanjwa? MR WILLS Yes. TOBIAS RONNIE MBANJWA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mbanjwa, you also filled out an amnesty application on the prescribed form with your colleague and you dated that on the 10th May 1997 at Durban, is that right? Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I place on record that for some reason the applicant isn't hearing his headphones. Sorry, can I repeat? You filled out an application for amnesty on the prescribed form on the 10th May 1997, is that correct? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS Would you confirm the contents contained in that form? MR MBANJWA Yes I do. MR WILLS You filled out the form together with and in the presence of your co-applicant, Mr Ndaba? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS You then, like your co-applicant, gave further details in an affidavit that appears before the Committee on page 15 and 16 of the bundle, is that right? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS And that affidavit is largely a confirmatory affidavit confirming the facts contained in the evidence of -or in the affidavit of Mr Ndaba, is that right? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS Now would you confirm the contents of that affidavit? MR MBANJWA Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you go on, did somebody fill this form in for you, this amnesty application form? MR MBANJWA Mr Ndaba was helping me. CHAIRPERSON Were you together? MR MBANJWA Yes we were. CHAIRPERSON Because I notice you filled in different forms and Mr Ndaba's form which is dated the 10th May appears to have been stamped with a date stamp by the South African Police on the - sorry it is the 10th - blank - oh, because you have no such date stamp on yours, at the end of your form? MR WILLS There is, Mr Chairperson, it's very faint on my copy but for the record on page 14 at the bottom right hand corner I can definitely see that there is ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Oh, sorry, I see there is something there but it is a different person signing it. MR WILLS Yes indeed. CHAIRPERSON Now carry on? MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. Now you've heard the evidence of Mr Ndaba? MR MBANJWA Yes I did. MR WILLS And do you confirm what he said in relation to this incident? MR MBANJWA Yes I do. MR WILLS Do you confirm what he says in relation to your involvement in the incident in that after he had shot you fired shots at the deceased and after which he fell, is that correct? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS And do you confirm what he says in relation to the fact that you were the only two involved in committing this murder? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS Is there anything in his evidence which you want to dispute? MR MBANJWA No, nothing. MR WILLS You too were a member of the underground structures having been recruited by the first applicant, is that right? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS And you too were integrated into the protection services department of the Department of Safety and Security, is that right? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS And I take it this must have been after the elections sometime in 1994, is that right? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS Is there anything you wish to add to this application that might be of assistance? Is there anything you wish to say to the Committee? MR MBANJWA In my knowledge I think he said everything and there is nothing that I would like to add on top of what he has already said. MR WILLS Now it's also so that you have come forward and disclosed this to the Committee and you have not been the subject of any police investigation, to your knowledge, in regard to this, neither have you been sentenced or tried? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS ADV DE JAGER Do you know the mother of the deceased? MR MBANJWA Yes I do know her only by seeing her. ADV DE JAGER For a long time before the incident before you killed the son? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. ADV DE JAGER And the sisters, did you know them? MR MBANJWA No I didn't know them. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA You have just confirmed that it's only the two of you who killed the deceased. Is it only the two of you who made a decision to kill him? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. MR MAPOMA You did not even consult with the ANC before killing him, is that so? MR MBANJWA We didn't consult with anyone about killing him or about the decision of killing him. MR MAPOMA After your commander said you must do something and when you thought of killing him, you did not even go back to him and find out if it is in order to kill him, is that so? MR MBANJWA Yes it is so, we didn't go back to him. MR MAPOMA For the record the deceased's family deny that their son was involved in the criminal activities which you allege. What do you say to that? MR MBANJWA I wouldn't dispute that but our investigations and the reports we received it is true that he was a criminal. CHAIRPERSON But then surely you must dispute it. If you had concrete information that he was a criminal then surely you dispute it when the family say he was not? Was you information of such a certain nature? MR MBANJWA He was a criminal. ADV DE JAGER Did he kill Mr Mbali? Or not Mbali, Mr Radebe? MR MBANJWA No he didn't. ADV DE JAGER Well who did he kill or didn't he kill anybody, only robbed them? MR MBANJWA In short I will say we didn't receive any report that say he killed someone but we received numerous reports that he had injured people. CHAIRPERSON You've told us of one incident or your colleague has where he allegedly shot the owner of a bottle store. Can you tell us of any other? MR MBANJWA No I wouldn't be able to give you names but what I know is that he was harassing and torturing people but there was no single person who came to the offices and said he was shot by him except for the bottle store owner. MR MAPOMA Thank you Sir, I've no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR SIBANYONI Mr Mbanjwa, did you also know that the ANC did not have policy of killing criminals? MR MBANJWA Yes. MR SIBANYONI When Entela said you should do something about the deceased, what did you understand him to mean about doing something? MR MBANJWA In my knowledge or our knowledge, me and my co-applicant, we thought that it included even killing the deceased. MR SIBANYONI After killing the deceased your co-applicant says you reported back to Entela, is that so? MR MBANJWA Yes, it is so. MR SIBANYONI What was his reaction, was he surprised that you killed the deceased, did he do anything? Did he show anything that he was against the action you have taken? MR MBANJWA No, he was not surprised and he didn't show any signs that he was against the action we'd taken and we took that he understood and we were according to the order or the instruction that we had to do something because people had already reported about the deceased many times. MR SIBANYONI I heard your co-applicant saying that these complaints were received at an ANC office, which office was that? MR MBANJWA ANC office, the one in Maritzburg, the original office in other words. MR SIBANYONI Did the regional office know that you took some steps of killing the deceased? Was it reported to the office? MR MBANJWA We reported this to Comrade Entela Skosane because we had already discussed this issue with him before or prior to the killing therefore he was the only one we reported to after the incident. MR SIBANYONI Apart from being a commander of your unit, did Entela hold any position in the ANC office or in ANC structures? MR MBANJWA He used to be a member of the REC in the ANC office, executive. MR SIBANYONI At what stage was that, was it before this killing or during the killing or after that? MR MBANJWA I wouldn't be very sure because the positions were continuously changing. I don't remember very well whether it was prior to the incident or after the incident but he was the member of the REC. MR SIBANYONI Now if you knew that the ANC policy was against killing criminals, why do you say when Entelas said you must take action you thought it included killing the deceased? MR MBANJWA The truth is more especially if I'm referring to the ANC, they don't allow killings but the situation at the time was forcing people to do so. MR SIBANYONI In your mind did you believe that what you were doing was in line with what the ANC would approve? MR MBANJWA Yes it is so. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether the mother of the deceased was an ANC member? MR MBANJWA No I do not know her political affiliation. ADV DE JAGER Did she stay in an ANC area? MR MBANJWA Yes it is so. ADV DE JAGER Where there any IFP members staying in that area? MR MBANJWA No. ADV DE JAGER So why did you not - didn't it cross your mind that the deceased may be an ANC member? MR MBANJWA It wasn't possible for us to think along those lines because his actions were far away from the ANC actions because for one, he used to harass and torture ANC people, sympathisers and supporters. ADV DE JAGER But you see, every political party in this country has the bad apples so to say, there are criminals in I would say every political party existing in South Africa? So the fact that he had been a criminal wouldn't necessarily mean that he's not an ANC member? Isn't that so? MR MBANJWA That is so. ADV DE JAGER So you don't know whether you've killed a bad ANC member, one that could even be a criminal, but he could have been a member of your own party or a supporter of your own party? MR MBANJWA I grew up in that area and I was an active member. I can tell if someone is an ANC member and he believes in the ANC as an organisation or the objectives of that organisation but what the deceased did, it was clear to us that he was not a member of the ANC because if he was he wouldn't have tortured and harassed ANC members. ADV DE JAGER Well can you tell us who did he torture? MR MBANJWA Committee members who were residing in the area were being harassed by ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER No but what's their names? Give me the names of those people who had been tortured, let's leave the part of harassment now. Torture, you've said he tortured people? MR MBANJWA We used to hold meetings after we had received reports and later we would meet as members or committee members and discuss about issues and they will report everything when everyone is there and then later we will discuss. ADV DE JAGER Yes, but you've told us now that he'd tortured people. Can you give us the name of one of the people that he had tortured? MR MBANJWA If I remember very well I think there was Comrade Vuyesili. ADV DE JAGER What did he do to him? MR MBANJWA Vuyesili used to receive reports because he was a member of the committee and he as well was harassed by this gang and therefore he couldn't go out and get reports and he used to come to the office and tell us that now he can't conduct his job because these people are harassing him, he cannot get the reports from the community. ADV DE JAGER Well what did he say, what did they do to him? Did they attack him, did they assault him, did they throw stones at him? What did they do? MR MBANJWA Sometimes they will just threaten him. ADV DE JAGER Alright, thank you. CHAIRPERSON And the two of you decided to kill him, so you went looking for him, is that correct? MR MBANJWA Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Where did you go? MR MBANJWA In Dambuza, he was carrying a battery or the battery was in a wheelbarrow. We saw him leaving his house and then we kept on looking at him and we followed him. We found in a road between the houses. CHAIRPERSON In the middle of Dambuza? MR MBANJWA Yes, in the middle of Dambuza. CHAIRPERSON Or the area you lived in yourselves? MR MBANJWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you were walking around this - with balaclava hats on in the middle of the morning? You must have drawn a great deal of attention to yourselves? Didn't you? MR MBANJWA No it is not so. CHAIRPERSON Why not? People didn't think it odd that you were walking around, the two of you with balaclavas over your heads in the middle of the morning? MR MBANJWA We didn't walk a distance so as to attract attention from people. CHAIRPERSON I thought you told us you followed him along the road? MR MBANJWA We watched him as he was leaving home and we looked at him as to see which route he was taking and then that's when we followed him. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Yes thank you Mr Chairperson, if you would just bear with me, I'm trying to think of a way to phrase my question without it being too leading. At what stage - sorry, when you were following the deceased did you have your balaclavas on all the time? MR MBANJWA Yes, they were on our heads. ADV DE JAGER Sorry, didn't he say he put it on at his house or something to that effect? MR WILLS I honestly can't remember that. CHAIRPERSON No, now, now, now, I thought I heard the word house? ADV DE JAGER Ja, "khaya". MR WILLS In the interpretation? ADV DE JAGER Yes. INTERPRETER No, not from me. MR MAPOMA I'm sorry, the word was "kanda" INTERPRETER Head, not home. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. MR WILLS At all stages was this balaclava pulled down or what was the position? MR MBANJWA At that time the balaclava was just on our heads, not covering the face. CHAIRPERSON So anybody who knew you and passed you would have been able to recognise you, you were not concealed so people could not recognise you? Is that the position? MR MBANJWA Yes it is so. MR WILLS And at what stage did you pull the balaclava down or if you did, did you pull the balaclava down at any stage prior to killing the deceased? MR MBANJWA Yes we did pull the balaclavas just before we arrived to the deceased. MR WILLS Were there other people around that you could notice? MR MBANJWA Yes there were. MR WILLS And where were they when you - in relation to the place when you shot at the deceased, I'm talking about the time you shot the deceased at that moment? MR MBANJWA The only people I saw, I saw them after the deceased was running away, it was after the gun had been shot or fired. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Now what are we going to do now, we've now come up against the problem, it's half past 3, I understand you have other witnesses whom you had arranged to be here on Wednesday which was the date you understood the hearing was to be held? MR WILLS That's indeed so, Chairperson, I would request an adjournment until such time as I can lead those witnesses on Wednesday. CHAIRPERSON I think it would probably be in the interests of clarity that we should do that rather than invite the victims witnesses to give evidence now before you have completed your case, I think it would be better, do you agree? MR WILLS Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So if we could adjourn till 9 o'clock Wednesday morning. MR WILLS Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The applicants are not in custody as I understand it from the evidence so you will arrange that they will be here? MR WILLS Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON We cannot conclude the hearing today because Mr Wills was told that the hearing would only be on Wednesday and it is arranged for his other witnesses to be here on that day. We are accordingly now going to adjourn this hearing till 9 o'clock on Wednesday morning when we would ask all of you who are interested, who are potential witnesses, to be present as perhaps from half past 8 so people who want to talk to you can have a chance to consult with you before the hearing commences at 9. So that is the deceased's mother and the other witnesses who are going to give evidence on her behalf, if they could please try to be here at half past 8 on Wednesday morning. Would that suit you? Very well, we will now adjourn this hearing till 9 o'clock on Wednesday and we will resume tomorrow with a fresh hearing. We will be sitting at 9 o'clock. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS