amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-08-03 PRETORIA 2 WILLEM FREDERICK SCHOON, ZERO-ZERO HANDGRENADE AM4396 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53588&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99080205_pre_990803pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody, I apologise for the late start. The reason was that the bringing of Mr de Kock from the Correctional Services was delayed. Yesterday we concluded the evidence of Gen van der Merwe and now I'm told, the evidence of Brig Schoon will be led, is that correct? MS LOCKHAT That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Brig Schoon is available to take the oath, Chairperson. WILLEM FREDERICK SCHOON (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. Good morning, Mr Chairman. Before you, you will find a statement by Brig Schoon, I'm told that it will be Exhibit E, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, yes. Has everybody got a copy of the statement? This will then be received as Exhibit EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. Brigadier Schoon, you are also applying for amnesty in this atter, is that correct? BRIG SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Your amnesty application is in bundle 1, page 148 to 239, is that correct? BRIG SCHOON Yes. MR VISSER Previously you have studied Exhibit A and with previous amnesty applications you have already confirmed the content thereof, do you once again confirm the content? BRIG SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER As well as the evidence to which is referred in that document? BRIG SCHOON Yes. MR VISSER Previously you've also given evidence yourself on the 19th of November 1996, in terms of a subpoena relating to Section 29, also on the 9th of October during the Armed Forces hearing in 1997. Is that correct? BRIG SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And do you also confirm then the content of your evidence which was previously given as well as the content of your application except insofar as there may be explanations or amendments made by you today, as being true and correct? BRIG SCHOON Yes. MR VISSER Can we go to page 3 of Exhibit E. Please begin at paragraph 1 and take the Committee through the document. BRIG SCHOON "This incident is an incident which was submitted by Gen J V van der Merwe on the 21st of October 1996, to the Amnesty Committee, in the applications of Brig J Cronje and four others which have been referred to above. I also request that the evidence which Gen van der Merwe will deliver before this Amnesty Committee, or which has been delivered before this Amnesty Committee, be incorporated into my application." MR VISSER Now Brigadier, when you completed your amnesty application, did you have an independent recollection of the date upon which these events took place? BRIG SCHOON No, Chairperson. MR VISSER And who did you consult in order to say in your application that the incident took place in 1986? BRIG SCHOON In the documents which were submitted by Brig Cronje. MR VISSER And you had insight into those documents? BRIG SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And is that the reason why you also said 1986, while we all know now that it was actually 1985? BRIG SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And this also let to another error on your behalf, but we will get to that shortly. Mr Chairman, paragraph 3, could I ask you to strike it out, it is a mistake on my part. It's a confusion between who the deceased persons were and who the injured persons were, but it's purely a mistake on my part and I only realised this morning that I haven't rectified it. I beg your pardon for that. CHAIRPERSON So we delete then paragraph 3. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Would you continue, paragraph 4. BRIG SCHOON "During the period before the mentioned dated, Gen van der Merwe informed me that the Minister of Law and Order had given ..." ....(intervention) MR VISSER That was actually Police. BRIG SCHOON Yes, of Police. "... had given authorisation to give handgrenades to certain activists. This group of activists was infiltrated by Joe Mamasela, who presented himself as an MK member. I was informed that the activists intended to attack targets which they had already identified and that they were actually waiting to obtain weapons." MR VISSER Brigadier, what was your position in the Security Police, during June 1985? BRIG SCHOON At that stage I was in command of Group C, at the Security Head Office. MR VISSER And what precisely did Group C involve? BRIG SCHOON It was generally known as the Counter-Terrorism Unit. MR VISSER Yes. Now yesterday, Adv Booyens put it to Gen van der Merwe that Mr Hattingh's recollection is that there was a meeting during which you and Gen van der Merwe and he were present, when the issue of the adjusted detonators was discussed. Do you have any recollection of that? BRIG SCHOON Yes, Chairperson, I can recall that we discussed this matter and if I recall correctly, Col Hattingh said that it would be somewhat of a difficult task to adjust these items, or that he did not have the expertise to do so. MR VISSER Very well, we will get to that later. What did the authorisation involve, according to you? BRIG SCHOON The authorisation involved that the detonators of the handgrenades be adjusted to such an extent that there would be no time delay after it had been activated and that the handgrenade would thus explode, either near or next to the person who tossed it. I was given the order to arrange that certain Russian manufactured handgrenades be adjusted as such. MR VISSER You have just referred to the fact that Mr Hattingh may have been present, is it your recollection that you did indeed speak to someone dealing with explosives at the Technical Division? BRIG SCHOON Yes. MR VISSER And are you prepared to accept that it may have been Col Hattingh? BRIG SCHOON Yes, it may have been him, because he was in command of the Demolitions Unit at that stage. MR VISSER Very well. Your recollection as you have just stated it, was that there was doubt regarding whether this could be done or not. Can you recall what you did then? BRIG SCHOON Chairperson, I then went to Special Forces, and according to my recollection I spoke to Gen Joop Joubert and asked whether he would be able to conduct these adjustments for us. MR VISSER Now Gen Joubert has written a letter ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It's Exhibit D. MR VISSER Exhibit D. Thank you, Mr Chairman. ... in which he stated that he indeed was not the Commander of Special Forces on the 25th or 26th of June, and that he cannot recall any discussion with you regarding this subject, and that he believes that you are mistaken. Now Mr Wagener did some homework last night and he has an extract which he gave to me, from the Armed Forces hearing of 8th of October 1997, and in this extract the Defence Force gave evidence in Cate Town and Gen Joubert said the following - he is asked, at the top of the page: "You were the General commanding Spes Forces, from 1985 to the end of 1988, is that right?" And Maj-Gen Joubert says: "The last, it is quite correct, but I started earlier, I was appointed up to the 31st." And then Mr Goosen says: "Formally you were the Commanding Officer from the 1st of November 1985, but before that you were already involved in Special Forces some months beforehand." Gen Joubert says: "Yes, for the handing-over process." Chairperson, I'm not certain whether there's any sense in handing it in, it's only that passage. Brigadier, are you prepared to accept in truth and in fact, that Gen Joubert was not the Commander of Spes Forces in June 1985? BRIG SCHOON Yes, I would accept that. MR VISSER Now then that brings us to the question of who you spoke to. Can you recall the person that you spoke to, or can you simply recall that you spoke to the Head of Special Forces? BRIG SCHOON Initially I tried to bring the person to the date and the date which I initially had was that this incident took place in 1986, in which case it would then have been Gen Joubert that I had consulted. However, seeing that the incident is placed in the middle of 1985, I will have to accept that it was not him and that it was, or may have been Gen Liebenberg that I spoke to. MR VISSER What you are saying is that you are inferring who you spoke to in terms of the date? BRIG SCHOON That is correct. MR VISSER So you have no independent recollection yourself regarding who you spoke to? BRIG SCHOON No. MR VISSER But you know that you spoke to the Head of Special Forces? BRIG SCHOON That is correct. MR VISSER Then what did you ask him? BRIG SCHOON I asked whether it was possible to modify these handgrenades so that they would explode immediately upon the activation of the detonator. MR VISSER And what did the Head of Special Forces say to you? BRIG SCHOON He said it wouldn't be a problem and that they could do so. MR VISSER And from paragraph 8 onwards, please proceed. BRIG SCHOON "I then arranged that a certain amount of Russian manufactured handgrenade detonators, approximately 24, be taken to Special Forces for modification." MR VISSER Can we just pause there? BRIG SCHOON Were there also detonators which were given to the Technical Division, the explosives experts of the Police? BRIG SCHOON They had weaponry which they had reclaimed for safekeeping, because they were demolitions experts and the only authorised personnel who were permitted to keep these items in supply. MR VISSER But no, what my question is, in terms of your discussion with Hattingh, would they also have adjusted handgrenade detonators which may have been applied during this incident? BRIG SCHOON I believe that they may have tried to do so. MR VISSER Very well. The fact is that you didn't have anything physical further to do with these things. BRIG SCHOON I did not handle these items myself. MR VISSER And you also stated that in paragraph 9 and 10 of your statement in Exhibit E. BRIG SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And later you heard that something else was required. BRIG SCHOON That is correct, I later was informed that a limpet mine was also required and that this also had to be adjusted. MR VISSER And who did you give that order to? BRIG SCHOON Also to the Demolitions Unit. MR VISSER That would be Mr Hattingh and his people? BRIG SCHOON Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER And as far as you know, that adjustment was carried out with regard to the limpet mine? BRIG SCHOON Yes. MR VISSER And as far as you know, even though you yourself were not personally involved, it later fell into the hands of Brig Cronje's people and ultimately with Mr Mamasela. BRIG SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER At all times you were aware of the purpose behind the adjustments of the detonators of the handgrenades and the limpet mines. BRIG SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And the aim was to give these items to persons who were going to attack targets. BRIG SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you have any personal motive in the execution of these tasks? BRIG SCHOON None whatsoever. MR VISSER Any personal vengeance or malice which you harboured? BRIG SCHOON None. MR VISSER You acted under the orders of Gen van der Merwe? BRIG SCHOON That is correct. MR VISSER Were you ever informed that the order had come from somewhere else? BRIG SCHOON Yes, he mentioned that it came from the Minister of Police. MR VISSER Did you commit these acts or omissions as part of your duties and in your opposition of the struggle? BRIG SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you also refer to the summary give by Gen van der Merwe regarding the background of the struggle, as given before this Committee? BRIG SCHOON That's correct. MR VISSER And it was aimed at supporters of the liberation movements? BRIG SCHOON That is correct. MR VISSER Did you also do this in order to combat political violence as you viewed it? BRIG SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER An d in this manner to maintain the government and the National Party, to maintain them in power? BRIG SCHOON Yes. MR VISSER Would you bear with me a moment please, Mr Chairman. Brigadier Schoon, did you have any knowledge of the precise course of events in terms of which these handgrenades or at least the detonators then, were prepared? Did you know precisely when Mr Mamasela became involved in the action and what precisely he did and what precisely Brig Cronje did and so forth? BRIG SCHOON No, I didn't. MR VISSER You have no knowledge thereof? BRIG SCHOON No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Because it would appear that Mr Mamasela infiltrated the group after the approval had been given by the Minister. You wouldn't know about that? BRIG SCHOON No, I don't know anything about that. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence-in-chief, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions you would like to ask the witness? MR HATTINGH I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Brigadier, when did you retire? BRIG SCHOON At the end of October 1989. MR BOOYENS How old were you then? BRIG SCHOON At that stage I was 59. MR BOOYENS Now Brigadier, I don't believe that there's any kind of factual dispute between us, I think that it is actually more about what people remember or what they believe they remember. Let us first deal with the meeting during which Mr Paul Hattingh was present. Mr Hattingh tells me that he recalls clearly that at the meeting he had already been called in regarding the technical viability of the proposition to adjust the detonator of a handgrenade. He himself said that he knew that it could be done but it would be difficult, but that he couldn't give you a final answer, that he had to discuss this with Wal du Toit, who was from the Technical Division. It resided theoretically below him, but it was an independent division from the Security Branch and he had to discuss it with them because if anybody could do it, then they could. Is it possible that it may been in Wal du Toit's division? BRIG SCHOON It is very possible. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Booyens, what was that name again? Du Toit you said. MR BOOYENS Mr Wal du Toit. CHAIRPERSON Wal du Toit. MR BOOYENS That's one of the applicants, Mr Chairman. And Mr Hattingh says that it is his recollection that he then did discuss the matter with Mr du Toit and that Mr du Toit said yes, he thinks that they'd be able to do it. You have no dispute with that? BRIG SCHOON Not at all. MR BOOYENS Now I see in your statement, in paragraph 8, this is Exhibit E to which you have just referred, you say "I then arranged that a certain amount of Russian manufactured handgrenade detonators be taken to Special Forces." Can you give us more details, would the Explosives Division have taken it to Special Forces? BRIG SCHOON Yes, I arranged for that. MR BOOYENS Can you recall who you arranged this with? BRIG SCHOON No. MR BOOYENS You see I'm wondering, because Mr Hattingh or anybody, none of them have a recollection that they ever received a modified weapon from Special Forces. Is it possible that you may be under the impression that you said take it to Special Forces, but that they already know that the Technical Division could do it and then took it to Technical Division and that is where the modification was undertaken? BRIG SCHOON No, the modification was executed at Special Forces. MR BOOYENS Did you receive later confirmation that it had been done at Special Forces? BRIG SCHOON Yes, the person who performed the modification there contacted me after the items were ready and then I once again arranged with the Demolitions Unit to fetch it. MR BOOYENS You cannot recall with who at Demolitions you arranged for them to fetch it? BRIG SCHOON No. MR BOOYENS Then it would appear to me that it is entirely possible because I can assure you that Mr du Toit would definitely not apply for something if he didn't have anything to do with it. I don't believe that anybody is that enthusiastic to appear before this Committee. Is it then possible that the right hand may not have known what the left hand was doing and an order may have come from Mr Hattingh and the others, that Mr du Toit and the others would modify another group of detonators and ultimately there were two sets of detonators and two sets of handgrenades which arrived at Demolitions? BRIG SCHOON I don't know about it. MR BOOYENS But you wouldn't be able to exclude the possibility? BRIG SCHOON No, I cannot dispute it. MR BOOYENS Well it would appear to me that this is probably what happened. And possibly - just with regard tot he limpet mine, this modification of the limpet mine was not undertaken by Mr Hattingh's division, the Demolitions Division, but was undertaken by Mr Wal du Toit in his division. BRIG SCHOON Yes, I later heard that. MR BOOYENS Thank you Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Booyens. Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions? MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mafora, do you have any questions you'd like to ask? MR MAFORA Thank you, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAFORA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Lockhat, would you like to put some questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson. Brigadier Schoon, in your first meeting or your meetings with Gen van der Merwe, were you informed as to the reasons for this Zero-Zero Operation? BRIG SCHOON I cannot recall that, Chairperson, although the reports which went through to him in this regard would have arrived at my desk as well and I would have been aware of it. MS LOCKHAT So you can't recall that these COSAS members were problem persons in the area and that certain policemen's homes were being attacked and therefore they needed this operation? BRIG SCHOON Chairperson, that information was conveyed to me and I was aware of it. MS LOCKHAT Tell me, your usual procedure, would you say that your usual procedure would go to the Head of Special Forces to actually give him this instruction to prepare these handgrenades? BRIG SCHOON No, not to give in instructions, I went to him and it was simply out of politeness that one would go to the commander and not to his subordinates, but I went to him with this request, which he then granted. MS LOCKHAT And you say that is Mr Liebenberg, is that correct? BRIG SCHOON Yes Chairperson, if it was not Gen Joubert, then it must have been Gen Liebenberg. But I do doubt this. MS LOCKHAT I just want to refer you to your Section 29 hearing. That is contained in bundle 2A, Chairperson, from page 317. I want to refer you to page 319. Just further down you say "I think there was a small amount, and if I say "small amount", I do not want to ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What line are you referring to? MS LOCKHAT Page 319, Chairperson, it's just ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON They've got lines down the side, is it 115 of ...(intervention) MS LOCKHAT It's 35, just below 35, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just below 35, thank you. MS LOCKHAT Then you go further "I do not want to commit myself to a figure, but it may have been a dozen or two." Is that what you requested, for a dozen or two of handgrenades? BRIG SCHOON Yes, that is correct. I just want to add that I did not ask Special Forces to provide the detonators, we ourselves provided it. And according to the best of my knowledge, it was approximately 24, which was then delivered to them. MS LOCKHAT Where did you obtain these handgrenades? BRIG SCHOON Chairperson, these were handgrenades which were taken into possession during the course of regular police activities. MS LOCKHAT And then Adv Goosen asks you, at line 42 "Yes, yes, and during the discussion of that incident, who was directly involved there, with the planning thereof?" And then you respond: "Well I think it was Gen van der ..." And then he goes on: "According to your knowledge." You further state: "It was I, I have an idea that it was Gen van der Merwe and Cronje and I may have been involved." Just explain that. BRIG SCHOON Yes, Chairperson, it was as it is known here, Gen van der Merwe who started the whole matter, Brig Cronje was involved and after that I also became involved in the provision or the preparation of the handgrenade detonators. MS LOCKHAT Just the next question that also Adv Goosen put to you regarding black handgrenades, so that they could be identified. It's just below line 10. CHAIRPERSON ... 20. MS LOCKHAT That is correct, Chairperson, page 320. He asked you "Do you know anything about so-called black handgrenades?" "No, can you inform me some more?" So I just want to check with you, was it possible that these handgrenades could have been coloured as black handgrenades in order to actually identify that these were the handgrenades that were booby-trapped? BRIG SCHOON Chairperson, I never saw these items, so consequently I cannot say whether they were coloured or painted, but I would accept that the detonators which were intercepted or modified would have been marked in some way so that they could be identified as dangerous. MS LOCKHAT And then just at line 45, Adv Goosen asks you another question "Now to launch such an operation, from where would approval have to be obtained?" And then you responded: "I should think that it would have to come from the State Security Council." Can you just elaborate on that for us, what did you mean by that? BRIG SCHOON Well Chairperson, such an operation couldn't simply be launched from the lower levels from the average Joe Soap, it would have to be a decision that had been taken on a relatively high level and I knew that - at that stage I might not have remembered it, that the Minister of Police had approved the operation. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Brigadier, just on this point. Why would you say that you would believe that it should have got approval from such a high level? Why I ask the question is that we have heard many applications involving operations also of a very serious nature, which resulted in the death of people, which never went beyond, approval-wise, beyond yourself for instance or at least beyond head office of the Security Police. BRIG SCHOON Chairperson, this was first in its kind and there had not been previous incidents such as this, that is why I regarded it as an exceptional operation. MS LOCKHAT Brigadier, so when you were informed that these people were actually going to be, could be injured, eliminated, did you in yourself agree with this operation? ...(end of side A of tape) BRIG SCHOON ...(inaudible) MS LOCKHAT .... commander. BRIG SCHOON Please repeat the question. MS LOCKHAT Your commander, was it ...(intervention) BRIG SCHOON General van der Merwe was my senior. MS LOCKHAT Why I'm asking you this, in your mind do you feel that you were just following instructions in this instance? BRIG SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT Did you feel that you could tell Gen van der Merwe that you did not want to proceed with the elimination of persons, could you be in that position to do that? BRIG SCHOON Yes, I was in that position, but I didn't because I believed that it was urgently necessary for something to be done about the tossing of these handgrenades to innocent people. MS LOCKHAT So what you're saying is that you could have told him look, I don't want to be part of this operation? BRIG SCHOON Yes, I could have said so. MS LOCKHAT But then you thought it was necessary though? BRIG SCHOON Yes, I thought so. MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser, do you have any re-examination? MR VISSER None thank you, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask? ADV GCABASHE No thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN No questions. CHAIRPERSON Brigadier Schoon, I'd just like to ask you, the structures, we've heard that there was a Technical Division within the Security Police, is that correct? BRIG SCHOON That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that where Col Hattingh worked? BRIG SCHOON Yes, Chairperson, that is where he worked. At the Demolitions Division, he was in command of Explosives. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Wal du Toit, where did he work? BRIG SCHOON He was in Technical. CHAIRPERSON And the Special Forces, why did you got to Special Forces and not to your Explosives or Technical Division? BRIG SCHOON Chairperson, we approached them first and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I want to know why if you had your own technical people. BRIG SCHOON Because they couldn't do it at that stage. CHAIRPERSON And is there any reason why, any particular reason why you sent plus-minus 24 grenades for modification? BRIG SCHOON Chairperson, not the grenades themselves, but the detonators. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the detonators, what made you choose that number? BRIG SCHOON Chairperson, it was simply so that we could have quite a few in stock. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether numbers were mentioned at all, as to how many people were to be the targets? BRIG SCHOON Chairperson, I don't believe that any pertinent number was mentioned, but the initial information was that there was a small group who were interested in continuing with this operation. CHAIRPERSON And then you said that you were later informed that a limpet mine also required modification. Who informed you about that and how much later did that information come to you? SCHOON: Chairperson, that was approximately at the same time and it was Brig Cronje. CHAIRPERSON Did you know why a limpet mine, or were you told why a limpet mine was required? BRIG SCHOON He told me that there was one of these persons who wanted to blow up a power station or a sub-power station and for those purpose they required a mini limpet mine. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Are there any questions arising out of questions put? MR VISSER No, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Schoon, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. BRIG SCHOON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED