amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-03 PRETORIA 2 FRANCOIS STEENKAMP https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53591&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99080205_pre_990803pt.htm MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I next call Capt Steenkamp. MR MALAN Mr Steenkamp, you only have the one name, Francois? FRANCOIS STEENKAMP (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Steenkamp, you also apply for amnesty with regard to this incident. Your application is found in bundle 1 on page 126 to 134. Is it correct that paragraph 7(a) in your application and (b) also needs to be amended? That 7(a) needs to read "National Party" and 7(b) "Supporter", for the same reason which we have said for the other applicants? MR STEENKAMP That is so, yes. MR VISSER Would it please you, Mr Chairman, to allow that amendment to be made. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I take it there's no objections. Yes, paragraph 7(a) and 7(b) on page 126 of volume 1 are amended by changing the answers contained therein. The first one to "Nasionale Party" and the other one 7(b) to "Ondersteuner". MR VISSER As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. Mr Steenkamp, you confirm the contents of your amnesty application, is that correct? MR STEENKAMP That is so. MR VISSER As well as the contents of Exhibit A, which you have studied beforehand. MR STEENKAMP That is so. MR VISSER And to the evidence which is referred to in Exhibit A. MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER You have - with regard to the general background of violence, political violence on the East Rand, you have heard what Gen van der Merwe and Brig Delport and Mr Prins, who had given evidence before you, had said. MR STEENKAMP That is so. MR VISSER Do you agree with the information that they have given before this Committee? MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER And you briefly deal with that on page 3 up to paragraph 11, is that so? MR STEENKAMP That's correct. MR VISSER Actually up to paragraph 9. MR STEENKAMP That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Visser, I think just for the record, is this the statement of Capt Steenkamp? That will be H. MR VISSER Oh I'm sorry, yes, yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON We'll receive that as Exhibit H. MR VISSER Exhibit H. And you say you have dealt with that up to paragraph 9, can you confirm that that would be your evidence before the Committee? MR STEENKAMP That is so. MR VISSER Will you continue with paragraph 10 and tell us what your participation was in these events that had taken place. MR STEENKAMP "During 1985 I was attached to the East Rand Security Branch of the South African Police, with the rank of Lieutenant. I was also the appointed Section 2 explosives inspector and was as such involved with the control of explosives over the whole East Rand, which included the issue of permits and the control of commercial explosives. Because of my knowledge of explosives I visited explosion scenes and from time to time gave evidence in Court cases. On the evening of the 25th of June 1985, I was informed by my Commander, Brig Delport, that that evening there would probably be several explosions or bomb attacks in the black areas mentioned above and I was placed on standby for visiting these scenes. I had no knowledge beforehand with regard to the causes of these explosions and I was not part of the planning beforehand." MR VISSER So what you are saying is that you had later become aware by means of what was said to you, that this was planned beforehand, as we have heard in the evidence of Gen van der Merwe and Brig Delport before this Commission? MR STEENKAMP That's correct. MR VISSER And at the time of the incident itself, when the explosions took place, you were not aware of it? MR STEENKAMP No. MR VISSER Please continue. MR STEENKAMP "Members attached to the Security Branch arrived there that evening in our area, apparently awaiting these explosions. At some stage I had a discussion with Col Venter and Col de Kock. Last-names was stationed at Vlakplaas, Pretoria. I was complaining about the fact that we had to work and I would rather be at home. One of them used the words to the effect that a lot of people would get a surprise and we would work late that evening." MR VISSER Yes. You have - in bundle 1 on page 128, you refer to this discussion and it's at the top of the page in bundle 1, page 128, and there you say "Members attached to the Security Branch arrived that evening in our area in expectation of the mentioned explosions." And then you say: "At some stage I had discussions with amongst others, Col Venter and Col de Kock. Last-mentioned was stationed at Vlakplaas, Pretoria. From the discussion I realised that the South African Police had orchestrated the whole situation and were awaiting these expected explosions." So are you saying now that in - this was said in hindsight because only afterwards you found out about this? MR STEENKAMP That's correct. MR VISSER So it was not mentioned to you there? MR STEENKAMP No, it was not pertinently put to me that that was exactly what the plan was. MR VISSER But what they had told you was that some people would get a surprise and we would work the whole evening. Please continue. And you say in the light thereof ... MR STEENKAMP "In the light of the words, when I visited the scene I drew the inference that the police had known beforehand that the explosions would take place and had participated in that. That where the victims had thrown - would throw the handgrenades, would be injured or killed. After midnight I heard by radio of several explosions in the black residential areas and through the course of the evening I visited five such scenes." MR VISSER Can you please pause there. What were your instructions which you received from Brig Delport? Would you go to one of the scenes or what was the position? MR STEENKAMP The position was that I did not even know how many explosions would take place because I was a standby officer. If there were scenes that evening, I would be personally responsible for those in giving evidence. MR VISSER So wherever explosions had taken place, you would visit the scene? MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER And do you accept what Brig Delport had said, that it was his idea that if there were any Court cases or investigations, he would send one man who would give all the evidence? MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER Please continue. MR STEENKAMP "The investigation official which was appointed was initially Lt Oberholzer, he was initially the investigative officer in this whole incident. My instruction was to assist him because of my expertise and knowledge of explosions. I assisted him during the following few days while there were pointings out made by the survivors." MR VISSER Before you continue with paragraph 19, can you recall today, at the scenes which you visited, how many explosive devices you picked up or had found there, which had not yet exploded? MR STEENKAMP At the very first scene in Tsakane, I think it was before Ntabazita Street 6460, I found a handgrenade which had not exploded and at the other scene in kwaThema there was also a handgrenade which had not exploded but that was destroyed by the then W/O Prins. MR VISSER Yes, he told us about it. MR STEENKAMP That's correct. These scenes stretched up to the following morning, approximately 9 o'clock or even later. MR VISSER Can you recall how many handgrenades you had defused? MR STEENKAMP The afternoon later, I defused another one. That was in Tsakane. And his handgrenade was burnt by fire, so it had a black shine. All the others were green, but this was burnt black by the grass. MR VISSER So it was not painted? MR STEENKAMP No, it was not. MR VISSER Please continue with paragraph 19. MR STEENKAMP "The survivors showed scenes to me where they would have allegedly received training in the use of these handgrenades ..." ...(intervention) MR VISSER Which survivors are we talking about? Are these which you refer to on page 2 under (c), Gosia Lekosane and John Mlangene and Samuel Lekatsa and Humphrey Tshabalala and Johannes Mazibuko and Joseph Mazibuko and Cedric Dladla? Are these the people you refer to? MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER Were they all together at these identifications or just some of them, or can you not recall? MR STEENKAMP As I can recall, all seven survivors were taken out for these identifications, all of them pointed to the same place, but I think accused number six, Lekosane, who pointed me in the wrong direction, where the others pointed in the direction where the handgrenades would have been thrown. MR VISSER While you speak of accused here I wonder, for purposes of assistance to the Committee, if we could have a look at the list on Exhibit 3A. I am preempting this, but you have indeed testified before Justice Stafford in a matter where these persons which we've heard of now were charged, is that not so? MR STEENKAMP That is so. MR VISSER Would it be correct, and correct me if I am wrong, that accused number one - Mr Chairman, if you look at the index on 3A, it might be easy for you to just jot them down in the margin. Joseph Titus Mazibuko was accused number one, is that correct? MR STEENKAMP That's correct. Accused number two ...(intervention) MR VISSER Just a moment. The reference to that, Chairperson, if you want to jot that down, is bundle 2A, page 334. That is where Justice Stafford refers to the numbers of the accused. Accused number two was John Mlangene. That does not form part Chairperson, of your list, so you'll have to write that in. CHAIRPERSON That's right at the bottom of the index, is that right? MR VISSER Well I'm right at the top of the index. I see him there, yes. I'm sorry, yes, Chairperson, I missed that. He was accused number two. The reference to that is bundle 2A, page 336. Very well. Accused number three, was that Samuel Lekatsa? MR STEENKAMP I think he was number three and Humphrey ...(intervention) MR VISSER One moment please before you continue. Mr Chairperson, bundle 2A, page 337. Very well. Number four would have been Tshabalala? MR STEENKAMP That's correct, that's Humphrey Tshabalala. MR VISSER ... (inaudible), Chairperson. And who was number five? MR STEENKAMP Number five was Johannes Vally Mzibuko. MR VISSER Now Chairperson, that's not quite clear from the judgment on sentence, but the reference is 2A, page 338, but one has to infer it from a reading of that page. And then number six was? MR STEENKAMP Was Len Gosane. MR VISSER Len Gosane. That's bundle 2A, page 339. And then number seven was Nicholas Dladla? That's the only one which remains. MR STEENKAMP No, Cedric Dladla. MR VISSER Cedric Nicholas Dladla. And that is page 342 of bundle 2A, Chairperson. I have interrupted you there, you say that you were at the scene which was pointed out to you by the injured, who were later the accused in the criminal matter. Where was this scene? MR STEENKAMP It was at an abandoned mine between the two residential areas of Tsakane and Duduza, in a field. MR VISSER Was this removed or away from all the residential areas where there were no people? MR STEENKAMP Yes, it was closer to Tsakane, I would say approximately two kilometres from Tsakane. MR VISSER But it was a remote area? MR STEENKAMP Yes, it was. MR VISSER And you say it was a mine heap. MR STEENKAMP No, it was an abandoned mine and the mine shaft had been closed down. MR VISSER Did you notice anything there, did you find anything there? MR STEENKAMP That's correct. With the visit of the first identification at the scene I found shrapnel of an RG42 handgrenades at the scene and I had photos taken and I also testified to that fact. MR VISSER Continue with paragraph 20. MR STEENKAMP "A few months later, Lt Oberholzer retired from the SAP, and I received instructions to become the investigative official, which I also did. If I may just explain. I took over the matter, in my opinion, in the eleventh month of '85, and I became the investigative official of these dossiers." MR VISSER Very well, proceed. MR STEENKAMP "The matter - a criminal case ensued in the Supreme Court in Pretoria, where a number of the survivors were charged. And after they had pleaded guilty they were found guilty on charges of attempted murder of black police members and black council members." MR VISSER So you say that a number of these persons were charged, is that because we don't know whether there were other people involved as well? MR STEENKAMP That's correct. MR VISSER Please continue. MR STEENKAMP "I had, as already indicated, during the night became aware that the handgrenades which had exploded that particular evening had been modified by members of the SAP, so that it would hit the handler of the handgrenade." MR VISSER Please go a little slower. MR STEENKAMP Very well. "I knew that the weaponry had been handed over by the SAP to the victims, with the idea that if the activists attacked any targets they would be hit." MR VISSER If you refer to the knowledge that you had afterwards or that you had drawn the inference of, or what was told to you? MR STEENKAMP That's correct, and as the investigation progressed. MR VISSER Very well. MR STEENKAMP "During the Court procedures I testified for the State." MR VISSER And for how long did you give evidence? MR STEENKAMP Chairperson, I think it was two days to explain my statement to the Court. So it was a very prolonged matter, it was approximately a week or so. MR VISSER Were you confronted in cross-examination with the possibility that the SAP had been involved here? MR STEENKAMP Yes, I was confronted. MR VISSER And what did you say? MR STEENKAMP I did in cross-examination concede the possibility that the SAP could have been involved with this incident, but I did not disclose my further knowledge about this in Court. MR VISSER So in this instance you perjured yourself? MR STEENKAMP Yes, I have. MR VISSER As well as obstructing justice? MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER Please continue with paragraph 24. MR STEENKAMP "I testified in Court, that I was not aware of a limpet mine that had exploded. The reason therefore was I did not find any shrapnel of a limpet mine at any of the scenes and because at that stage I was convinced that a limpet mine's delay mechanism could not be shortened. Only much later I heard that it was possible and that it had indeed been done." MR VISSER So you say although you in this regard had perjured yourself technically, it was because you were convinced at that stage that it was not possible and nobody told you about a mini limpet mine, beforehand. MR STEENKAMP That's correct. MR VISSER Proceed. MR STEENKAMP "Immediately after the mentioned explosions and on the strength of allegations in the media, the SAP appointed another set of detectives to investigate the explosions, specifically to determine whether members of the SAP were involved or not." MR VISSER Yes, and that is on the question which Commission Malan had put, and I think the Chairperson as well, that reasonably quickly after the explosions there were already the allegations that the police had something to do with it. MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER Now I wish to ask you, in cases - was this a new thing that the ANC, from the ANC's side, had blamed the police when the explosions had taken place where ANC members were injured or killed? MR STEENKAMP No, according to my knowledge it was not a new thing. With regard to the report the following day, it was that handgrenades were thrown from casspirs and the detectives whom I referred to here were appointed by that the media people, and this newspaper report was investigated. MR VISSER So it was not suggested as if the police had given adjusted handgrenades to the activists? MR STEENKAMP No, not the following morning. MR VISSER Was it mentioned later that the police had been involved in some other manner? MR STEENKAMP That's correct. MR VISSER And that was during the Court case. MR STEENKAMP Yes, during the Court case and media reports. MR VISSER: Very well, proceed. MR STEENKAMP "I have heard of allegations of former colleagues of mine who ..." ...(intervention) MR VISSER You have missed something. Can you recall whether you made any false statements to that investigative team? MR STEENKAMP I cannot recall if I had made any statement to them. MR VISSER But as far as you have, you apply for amnesty for any perjury or defeating the ends of justice in that regard? MR STEENKAMP That's correct. MR VISSER Very well, proceed. MR STEENKAMP "I had heard of allegations of former colleagues of mine, that I was involved with the discussions and planning beforehand of this operation." MR VISSER Can we just address that. That was the evidence of Brig Jack Cronje and Mr Venter, but they both conceded at the hearing - and I would give the references to the Committee later on if necessary, that they were mistaken when they said that they thought that you were present at the meeting which was addressed by Gen van der Merwe. MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER Can you just conclude your statement? MR STEENKAMP "I did not act out of malice or personal vengeance. My action here was within the instructions that I had received from senior officers and took place with the approval of the senior command structure of the SA Police." MR VISSER Can I interrupt you there, did anybody give you instructions to perjure yourself or to obstruct the ends of justice in order to cover up the facts or did you do this out of your own motivation? MR STEENKAMP If one can put it as such, I associated myself with it by myself. MR VISSER Please continue. MR STEENKAMP "Initially I was involved by my commander, Brig Delport and my further involvement with this incident continued with his knowledge, his approval, and in accordance to his instructions. As far as I know, the command with regard to the specific operation as such, came from Security Head Office in the person of Gen J V van der Merwe." MR VISSER And later you realised during the amnesty process that the Minister of Police of that time, Minister le Grange, was also involved. MR STEENKAMP Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER Very well. MR STEENKAMP "Die handelinge en versuime wat ek begaan het, het ek gedoen in die uitvoering van my amptelike pligte, en as deel van die opponering van die stryd en was gerig teen ondersteuners van die vryheidsbeweging. TYPED IN AFRIKAANS AS THERE WAS NO ENGLISH INTERPRETATION What I had done was to combat political violence and to protect the lives of people. The action also served to protect the government at which this political violence was aimed and to maintain the government and to protect the interests of the National Party." MR VISSER And you feel that you acted within the scope of your duties as a policeman and you believed that you acted within the scope of your express or sworn duties? MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER If we could page to page 2. Your application states that you apply for amnesty for the murder of eight COSAS members - I will address the Committee later about this, attempted murder and then (d) speaks of the unlawful possession and application of explosive devices. We know that you were an Section 2 explosives expert, but as far as it is necessary for the purposes of this application, insofar as it may be alleged that the explosive devices were illegally applied, you also apply for amnesty for that. MR STEENKAMP That is correct. MR VISSER And perjury and for accessory before or after the act? MR STEENKAMP That is so. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, at this stage I will leave it at that. I think perhaps on the evidence when we come to argument stage, we should deal with Mr Steenkamp separately to see what he should be entitled to, if he's entitled to amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions you'd like to ask? MR HATTINGH No thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Mafora? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAFORA Just one question, Mr Chair. You indicated that you were only informed of the plan on the day when the attack would take place, is that correct? MR STEENKAMP The evening I was not officially informed, I drew inferences and from the discussions and after I visited the explosion scenes I realised that this was an action of the police. MR MAFORA And you also state then that the incorrect information that you submitted at Court, you know when you testified, you did it out of your own accord, is that correct? MR STEENKAMP If I could just explain. My evidence was basically the observations which I had observed at the scenes and the concession which I made under cross-examination, that the police might have been involved I also conceded, but I did not elaborate on that, that the police had indeed been involved there. So that I did not disclose to the Court. MR MAFORA You did not disclose that to the Court? MR STEENKAMP That's correct, yes. MR MAFORA But you were not given any instructions not to do so, you did it on your own accord? MR STEENKAMP I drew that inference afterwards and I associated myself with that. In other words, I acted under the command of my commander, Brig Delport. MR VISSER You know, what I want to find out is, when you realised that the police were involved you simply associated yourself with the actions, but you were not given any specific instructions to say please, do not divulge anything that you know about this incident? MR STEENKAMP No, Chairperson, I inferred this from the circumstances. MR MAFORA No further questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAFORA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mafora. Ms Lockhat, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson. Just the investigating officer, Mr Oberholzer, did he know that this whole mission was planned by the South African Police? MR STEENKAMP It's possible. I believe afterwards he did know. MS LOCKHAT But he also worked for that Security Branch at Springs? MR STEENKAMP That's correct. MS LOCKHAT And Mr Delport was also his commander, is that correct? MR STEENKAMP That is so. MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Just one question. Where is this Mr Oberholzer, the Lieutenant Oberholzer? MR STEENKAMP Chairperson, he is deceased. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Adv Gcabashe, any questions? ADV GCABASHE None, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan, any questions? MR MALAN No questions, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Captain Steenkamp, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED