amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-03 PRETORIA 2 ANDRE ROOS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53592&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99080205_pre_990803pt.htm MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I call my last witness, Mr Andre Roos, and I beg leave to hand up to you his statement. I don't know whether you feel the same way ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So we go to J? MR VISSER ... about it as does your brother. Yes, indeed Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I don't feel strongly about it, but I've always done it, we skip Exhibit I and from H to J. This is Exhibit J. MR VISSER J, thank you Chairperson. ANDRE ROOS (sworn states) MR MALAN Thank you, please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER You are still a member of the South African Police Services? MR ROOS That is correct. MR VISSER And your rank is Director? MR ROOS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER If that is the rank, I don't know what one calls it these days. You apply for amnesty in regard to this incident, is that correct? MR ROOS That is correct. MR VISSER And your application is in bundle 1, page 135 to page 147, is that correct? MR ROOS That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have previously given evidence before the Amnesty Committee, is that correct? MR ROOS That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And this was in the matter attacks on houses, can you recall the names of the persons? MR ROOS The attacks on the house of one, Godfrey Kwabe and Gregory Tulare. MR VISSER Gregory Tulare. Now you also gave evidence there? MR ROOS That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have studied the contents of Exhibit A, do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR ROOS I do, Chairperson. MR VISSER As well as the contents of your amnesty application. MR ROOS I confirm the contents, with one exception Chairperson. MR VISSER Yes, what is that? MR ROOS The position which I have now differs from what I was, the position that I occupied when the application was drawn up. MR VISSER So you are now a Director? MR ROOS Yes, but the post I occupied then, that needs to be amended. MR VISSER Well it is not necessary to officially amend it, we know what your official rank is now. You have heard the evidence of Gen van der Merwe and Mr Delport, as well as the other previous witnesses, is that correct? MR ROOS That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER The political violence and mass actions to which they testified, was that also your knowledge in that part of the struggle? MR ROOS I confirm so, Chairperson. MR VISSER You deal with that from page 3 to page 4, up to paragraph 10, is that correct? MR ROOS That is correct. MR VISSER Can you continue from paragraph 11, what you part was in this action? MR ROOS Chairperson, thank you. "What I could recall is that I was told on the evening of the 25th of June to be on standby and that I had to go to a farm close to De Notter." MR VISSER Can you recall who gave you the instruction or where the instruction came from? MR ROOS I cannot specifically recall, but I would accept that it would have come from my then branch commander, Cpt Smith. MR VISSER Can you continue. MR ROOS "I can recall that I met a number of members there, amongst whom was Brig Cronje. Last-mentioned told us about a number of handgrenade attacks which were expected that evening on the houses of black members, black council members and certain strategic installations in the black residential areas." MR VISSER Mr Roos, can you please tell the Committee, before the explosions had taken place were you informed that these explosive devices which would be applied had been doctored? MR ROOS No, I was not informed, Chairperson. MR VISSER Please continue and just a little bit slower. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Visser, just on this before he moves on. You say in this statement that you were told by Brig Cronje that there was going to be a number of grenade attacks on houses of black police members and councillors. Did Brig Cronje say who would be doing the attack or whether it was - the police were involved in any way in the attack, or were you just told they expect a number of attacks, no information? MR ROOS Chairperson, the role for which I was called in for was Inspector of Explosive Devices and the information was given to me that there would be a number of explosions and that they had information to that effect and it would be carried out allegedly by COSAS members. CHAIRPERSON So it was just a routine operation for you basically? MR ROOS Absolutely correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN May I just ask you on this point, according to your evidence Cronje told you that it would be black council members' houses, black members of the Force and installations. In other words, you knew what the targets would be, so you did not ask him why don't we stop it? MR ROOS I was a relatively junior officer at that stage, Chairperson, I did not think it just to question his orders. MR MALAN You've heard Mr Steenkamp, that he drew the inference that the police were involved. Did you draw the same inference? MR ROOS Yes, I did Chairperson. MR VISSER When did you draw this inference, there and then when Brig Cronje addressed you or later? MR ROOS No, after the incidents, Chairperson. MR VISSER And on the previous theme, one of the witnesses said that Brig Cronje was not a person whose orders were easily doubted. MR ROOS Indeed, Chairperson. MR VISSER Very well, please continue. MR ROOS "Later that night I heard over the radio that a number of explosions, as mentioned, had taken place and I accompanied Lt Steenkamp to all the explosive scenes. I cannot recall exactly how many scenes it was. We found handgrenades at the scenes, which we detonated by means of controlled detonations." MR VISSER And you cannot recall how many and where? MR ROOS I cannot recall the exact number, Chairperson, but it was between two and three explosions. What I do recall is that I was personally responsible for the detonation of one handgrenade. MR VISSER Did you make any statements with regard to this incident? MR ROOS To my knowledge I did not make any statement. MR VISSER You say in paragraph 15 that shortly after the incident you became aware of exactly what the police' role was in this matter, and for apparent reasons you made yourself guilty of defeating the ends of justice. MR ROOS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And then in paragraph 16 and further that the acts and omissions committed by you were done in the execution of your official duties as you see it and as part of your opposition to the struggle and that it was aimed at the supporters of a liberation movement. And what you had done you had done to combat the political violence and to protect the lives of the people and that it also had to serve to protect the government against whom the political violence was aimed and to maintain the National Party's interests. MR ROOS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What would have happened if you disclosed your knowledge that the police were involved with these adjustments of the detonators of these handgrenades, which had caused that eight people had been killed and seven had been injured? During the time period of that time, what would you say what would have happened if you had disclosed that knowledge of yours? MR ROOS Chairperson, I would have been labelled as a sell-out in the circles and I would have been obliged to give evidence against my fellow colleagues. MR VISSER And it would have been an embarrassment for the government. MR ROOS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you say you acted in the execution of your official duties as a policeman and you believed that what you had done, fell within the ambit of your express duties, and like Mr Steenkamp, in your application you basically request amnesty for the possession of illegal explosive devices and defeating the ends of justice. Is that correct? MR ROOS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER In your application it says you ask for murder and attempted murder, but we will address the Committee later on that aspect. Now Brig Delport had beforehand referred to an incident where you were present during a visit by Mr le Grange, do you recall that? MR ROOS I recall that, yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, that was in Exhibit F, paragraph 31. Were you indeed at a stage present when a discussion took place between Minister le Grange and Brig Delport in a vehicle? MR ROOS I would not refer to it as a discussion, but I recall that I was given instructions to accompany Brig Delport, where we would meet the Minister and where he would have arrived in his helicopter from Pretoria. The reason why I had to accompany him was I had undergone a training course to protect very important persons and I drove the vehicle with which we fetched or collected the Minister and after he had climbed into the vehicle, he made some remark to the Brigadier, which boiled down to the effect that he said congratulations with the operation. MR VISSER To which operation did you think he referred? MR ROOS I accepted that it was the reasonably recent operation. MR VISSER Were there any other large operations on the East Rand to which he could have referred? MR ROOS No, not which would elicit the congratulations of the Minister. CHAIRPERSON Have you finished, Mr Visser? MR VISSER I thank you, yes thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions? MR HATTINGH No thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, do you have any questions? MR BOOYENS May I just take instructions here with ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON I'll ask Mr Cornelius in the meantime. Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions? MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR BOOYENS I've also got no questions, thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Booyens. Mr Mafora, do you have any questions? MR MAFORA No questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAFORA CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Just a couple of questions, Chairperson. I just want to check with you, who was your commander at the time? MR ROOS The overall commander was Brig Delport. MS LOCKHAT The overall commander. And Capt Smith? MR ROOS He was my branch commander at the time. MS LOCKHAT So was there a duty on you to disclose this information to your branch commander at this time, at that time? MR ROOS I don't believe so, I think we functioned on a need-to-know basis, Chairperson. And if we have to follow the letter of the law strictly, then I would have had to inform him, but I did not. MS LOCKHAT Would he have reprimanded you in this instance if he had found out about this operation, that you were involved in it? MR ROOS My knowledge of my branch commander, he would also have associated himself with the act. MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Visser? MR VISSER No, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Adv Gcabashe, any questions? Mr Malan? MR MALAN No questions, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Roos, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Mr Chairman, that concludes the evidence of our applicants. Before we commence, I was hoping ...(end of side A of tape) ... but more seriously, Chairperson, that some of ...(indistinct), I take it, will have to be changed. CHAIRPERSON We'll take a brief five to ten minute adjournment now because there might be changes, I don't know, but it will give the interpreters - even if they don't want to smoke, a break. MS LOCKHAT Please stand. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS