amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-04 PRETORIA 3 W A L DU TOIT https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53596&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99080205_pre_990804pt.htm MR BOOYENS The next witness is Mr Wal du Toit, Mr Chairman, and his application can be found on page 240 of bundle 1. MR MALAN Your full names of Wybrand Andreas Lodewikus? WYBRAND ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Booyens? EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr du Toit, you have your amnesty application before you. MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And on page 242, 43, 44 to 248, you deal basically with your career history and where you were employed. MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And on page 249 you sketch the background of what exactly the Technical Division of the Security Branch was. MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Just to clarify certain aspects, Mr du Toit. There may be the perception in the minds of some people that the Technical Division of the Security Branch was only involved in offensive actions, such as for example this modification of weaponry, in this case and in other cases and so forth. Would you please explain to the Committee exactly how the Technical Division functioned. Try to be brief, but I think it is important. MR DU TOIT Thank you, Chairperson. I would just like to say from the beginning that this perception is not correct, the primary function of the unit was to provide technological support for the court oriented information gathering actions. We had an official mandate, it was in line with official practice and there was nothing sinister about the existence of the unit. MR BOOYENS Very well. And with regard to the modification of weaponry and so forth, later in your application you refer to the fact that you modified various types of weaponry, that you modified mines, limpet mines, mini-limpet mines, grenade detonators, even ammunition, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Is this something which you did on a daily basis or was it a sporadic occurrence? MR DU TOIT No, it occurred sporadically due to the fact that there was a limited level of expertise in that unit and that we had the infrastructure to deal with such occurrences. MR BOOYENS Then there is just one technical aspect that I wish to clarify here, and I think that you should explain this to the Committee, because especially in previous applications if we study the evidence given by Brig Jack Cronje and others, the statement has been made essentially, that handgrenades or the detonators of handgrenades were adjusted to such an extent that they would explode as soon as you pulled the pin. MR DU TOIT No, that is not correct. The lever which folded over the handgrenade had to be loosened first, in other words the pin that was removed was actually a safety mechanism, the lever had to be removed first before the handgrenade would go off. MR BOOYENS And that would take place once a person had tossed the handgrenade, that is after the lever and the pin had been removed? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS And in this case the handgrenade would have gone off. MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Now Mr du Toit, regarding your involvement in offensive operations, in 1985, can you recall whether Mr Paul Hattingh came to you regarding an issue of the possibility of zero-det handgrenades, the possibility of modifying the detonators of such handgrenades? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Now were you aware of an incident in 1978 at Meleeuskop(?), which was a training base, where a handgrenade apparently went off - was it 1978 or 1988? MR DU TOIT It's 1978. MR BOOYENS ... where a handgrenade, an eastern block handgrenade went off immediately and policemen were injured? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS And were you also aware that there was talk of the existence of so-called zero-det handgrenades? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Did you and Mr Hattingh then discuss the matter? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS And did you investigate the technical viability of this practice and come to the conclusion that it could be done? MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS You also received a request, can you recall whether this was at the same time or possibly later, the request being also to modify a limpet mine for the purposes of immediate detonation? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS And was this also investigated and carried out? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Possibility just to take it as far as 1989, because you refer to this at stages, did you also receive further requests or instructions for the modification of other forms of weaponry, and was this executed? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS I think it might just be necessary, just for the sake of completion, for you to elaborate on this. I have read in your application about limpet mines and mini-limpet mines, what is a mini-limpet mine? MR DU TOIT It is an anti-personnel mine. MR BOOYENS Yes, is it a smaller mine? MR DU TOIT Yes, it is. MR BOOYENS And then we have also read about the modification of the handgrenade detonators, can you tell us - you heard yesterday afternoon that Mr de Kock said that the detonators could be used on both offensive and defensive eastern block handgrenades, would you agree with that? MR DU TOIT Yes, I agree. MR BOOYENS You also refer to the fact that ammunition or the regular rounds of ammunition were modified at times. MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS And did Technical Division ever do these things out of their own initiation or motivation, or were there requests or instructions for this to be done? MR DU TOIT There were always requests and instructions. MR BOOYENS Your division didn't really have the appropriate information to evaluate the exact nature and so forth of an operation in which those things that you had manufactured would be used? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS So it fell beyond your line function? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You were not a division who worked in the field, you were technical? MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And in this specific case what we are dealing with here, after Mr Hattingh said to you what the request was, did he briefly inform you what it was about and what they were considering it for? MR DU TOIT MR BOOYENS And he also told you that it came as an instruction from the top? MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR BOOYENS Were you satisfied that although it was legally wrong, that it was morally correct with regard tot he situation which was at hand? MR DU TOIT Yes, I was satisfied, Chairperson. MR MALAN Did you and the other applicants who apply for amnesty make the necessary work to do these modifications? MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Mr du Toit, you request amnesty - let me just ask you, you confirm the correctness of the application in total? MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Let us just get your application in order. You request amnesty for any offence which might flow out of your involvement with the modification of the arms. MR DU TOIT That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Or any offence or delict. I know here we only refer to conspiracy, but it might be accessory and certain transgressions of the Act on Explosives. MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And with regard to the preparation of these - of your application as well as the Kok brothers and Mr Louw, you did not have legal representation at that stage. MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And you basically prepared your own application and because you had a computer you also assisted the other persons in the completion of their applications. MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS The first handgrenades to which the detonators had been modified, was this the handgrenades about which this incident is about, as to which Mr Hattingh gave evidence? MR DU TOIT I believe so, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And in your application you also mentioned that at a later stage you stopped modifying detonators because of two explosions. MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS In which you and the applicant, Mr Kobus Kok were involved and the explosions took place 10 minutes after each other. MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR BOOYENS And at that stage you thought that something might have changed and no modifications were made thereafter. MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And can you recall when this was? MR DU TOIT I don't have a recollection thereof, I think it was in the early '90's. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS ADV GCABASHE Could I just ask on that point, you are not saying these are the only adaptations you made? MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson, there were others. ADV GCABASHE There were others that you made. MR DU TOIT There was. ADV GCABASHE But this was the first? MR DU TOIT These were the first yes, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Booyens. Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr du Toit, you have heard Mr de Kock's evidence that he and Mr Roelf Venter visited you and asked you to modify a limpet mine in the same manner, can you recall that? MR DU TOIT Chairperson, I don't have a recollection thereof. I cannot deny it though, it may be so. MR HATTINGH Can you recall whether you had indeed modified such a limpet mine? MR DU TOIT I did, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Mafora? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAFORA Just one question, Mr Chairman. How many handgrenades did you prepare? MR DU TOIT Voorsitter, kan ons die vraag net meer spesifiek kry, verwys u na hierdie besondere geval? ...(no English interpretation) MR MAFORA No, for this incident. MR DU TOIT Vir hierdie insident? MR MAFORA Yes. MR DU TOIT I don't have a clear recollection thereof, Chairperson, I will agree with what the other applicants have said. I assume that it must be to the amount of 20. MR MAFORA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAFORA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mafora. Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, any re-examination? MR BOOYENS No re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Adv Gcabashe, any questions? ADV GCABASHE Were any brought back to you after this incident, for safekeeping? MR DU TOIT No, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Or for further alteration, adjustments? MR DU TOIT Are you referring to these ...(intervention) ADV GCABASHE These particular ones, yes. MR DU TOIT No, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE No. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN No questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr du Toit, that concludes your - sorry is there a question arising out of the question put by Adv Gcabashe? No questions. That concludes your evidence, you may stand down, thank you. MR DU TOIT Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED MR BOOYENS I call Jakobus Kok, Chairperson. My attention is being drawn to the fact that it's time for the short adjournment. Would it an appropriate time to adjourn for the tea break? The following applicant will be Mr Kock. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, it's now 11 o'clock, we'll adjourn for tea now until twenty five past eleven, thank you. MS LOCKHAT All rise. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS