amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-04 PRETORIA 3 JAKOBUS KOK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53597&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99080205_pre_990804pt.htm MR BOOYENS Mr Chairperson, the following witness is Jakobus Kok, his application is on page 30 of volume 1. JAKOBUS KOK (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Mr Kok, your amnesty application appears from page 30 to page 47, is that correct? MR KOK That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS I will repeat that. Your amnesty application appears from page 30 to page 47 in this application, is that correct? MR KOK That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR KOK I do, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You worked in the Technical Division, under the command of Wal du Toit? MR KOK That's correct. MR BOOYENS You have heard the evidence of Mr Wal du Toit that he has delivered here? MR KOK That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Do you agree? MR KOK I agree completely, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Mr du Toit amongst others, gave an explanation as to what the Technical Division did, do you agree with what he had said? MR KOK Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And further that you as the Technical Division received orders, you were never in a position to consider the merits of an operation, is that correct? MR KOK That is indeed so, Chairperson, we only acted on requests and not from our own initiative. MR BOOYENS And when this instruction came for the modification of the handgrenade detonators as well as the mine, did you accept that it would be done in the struggle against the enemy forces of the past? MR KOK Yes, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Were you also aware that such actions would be illegal? MR KOK Yes, I was, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS But did you see it with regard to the background which reigned at that stage and you saw it morally justifiable in the struggle? MR KOK Yes, I had no objection to it and I accepted it as such and executed it in the spirit thereof, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Mr Kok, through the years you had modified arms sporadically, is that correct? MR KOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And it was amongst others, handgrenade detonators, limpet mines and mini-limpet mines as well as firearm ammunition? MR KOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And these things, did you always receive instructions from your commander which you accepted that he received instructions from somebody else? MR KOK That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm that you apply for amnesty for any offence or delict which might flow out from your involvement with the adaptation of arms? MR KOK I do confirm, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Booyens. Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions? MR HATTINGH No, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mafora? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAFORA Just one questions, Mr Chairperson. Who informed you that these things would be used in this operation? MR KOK Chairperson, I was not informed what the purpose - for what purpose these things would be applied, the merits were only explained to me in the sense that the users would be terrorists seen from my side, who were prepared to launch handgrenades and it morally justified me to go through with the adaptation of the arms. MR MAFORA So you didn't get any full details? MR KOK We never received complete information with regard to an operation, we only received the request from my commander, Mr Wal du Toit at that stage, as he put it to me. MR MAFORA Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAFORA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Lockhat, any questions? MS LOCKHAT No questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, any re-examination? MR BOOYENS No thanks, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Adv Gcabashe? Mr Malan? Can you recall how many grenades you modified, Mr Kok, in this particular incident. MR KOK Chairperson, it's basically impossible to recall. I cannot isolate this instance specifically, so I would not be able to say. CHAIRPERSON And can you recall, maybe not from your last answer, how long it took, how long you worked with these grenades and the limpet mine? MR KOK If I think of how we went about it, it would not have taken longer than one day to do it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And how many of you would have worked on them? MR KOK At that unit there were only four persons who worked in that unit and we usually worked in a team together, because everybody had a certain function to perform, so in that instance I would accept that it would only be the four of us. If ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So all four of you would have worked on each of the handgrenades? MR KOK Usually, Chairperson, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you. Are there any questions arising out of questions put? Thank you, Mr Kok. WITNESS EXCUSED