amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-11 DURBAN 2 LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN AM4508/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53605&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9908100903_dbn_990811db.htm MR VISSER Chairperson, the last applicant for whom we appear is W/O Lawrence Gerald Wasserman, whom we call to the stand. He will give his evidence in English. We beg leave to hand up to you a summary of his evidence and we would propose that that be marked Exhibit F. CHAIRPERSON That will be so marked. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chairman. He has no objection to taking the prescribed oath. LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Please take a seat, Mr Wasserman. You're an applicant in this incident, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Have you perused Exhibit A? MR WASSERMAN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And do you find yourself in agreement or disagreement with the contents of Exhibit A? MR WASSERMAN I concur with the contents. MR VISSER And you ask that that be incorporated in your evidence, together with references to other evidence which Exhibit A contains, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN Correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER You have previously given evidence before another Amnesty Committee in the application with regard to Ndwandwe, the KwaMashu 3, and Pumezo Ncgweni, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN Correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER If you will please turn to page 2, and will you inform the Committee what your knowledge and participation was in the present incident. You first of all refer to the evidence of Col Vorster. You have also heard the evidence of Col Botha this morning, in regard to the background of the violence in Natal and the situation in Swaziland, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Do you also find yourself in agreement with that? MR WASSERMAN I do. MR VISSER Would you please continue at page 2, paragraph 2, of Exhibit F. MR WASSERMAN Yes, Mr Chairman. "I was instructed by Col Botha from Durban, to accompany him on an operation to Swaziland. I was informed by him that there was information to hand that an important Umkhonto weSizwe member, Dion Cele, had indicated that he would be willing to work for the Security Branch. And our mission would be to abduct Dion Cele from Swaziland, bring him to the RSA and attempt to turn him and recruit him and place him back." MR VISSER Right. What did you know about Cele, what were you told? MR WASSERMAN "We knew that Dion Cele was a member of border work, attached to the Natal machinery. He lived in Manzini and he was undergoing night school at Scot, at a technical college in Manzini in Swaziland. And as a border worker he was responsible for the infiltration of MK into Natal and the subsequent movement of weapons with those units and responsible for acts of terror within this province." CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR WASSERMAN "I was informed that there was an informer who was handled by Mr Vorster ..." ...(intervention) MR VISSER Goodwill Sikhakane? MR WASSERMAN Goodwill Sikhakane. I learnt the name at a later stage. "... and he would assist in bringing forward Dion Cele." MR VISSER Right. You travelled with Botha from Durban in a kombi, is that correct, to Amsterdam? MR WASSERMAN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you go in with Botha and Vorster on the reconnaissance trip? MR WASSERMAN No, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Before the abduction was performed? MR WASSERMAN No. MR VISSER Right. Did you stay behind in Amsterdam? MR WASSERMAN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Alright. And then on the next occasion when Swaziland was entered, did you then accompany them? MR WASSERMAN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Can you just tell us about that? MR WASSERMAN "Col Botha and I took the kombi in. We entered legally, proceeded to Manzini to the George Hotel and there linked up with Sikhakane." MR VISSER Yes? MR WASSERMAN Form there ...(intervention) MR VISSER Did he come, get into the kombi with you? MR WASSERMAN Yes, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And at one stage, was he asked to take over the driving of the kombi? MR WASSERMAN That's correct, Mr Chairman. "He then drove to a spot near the main gates of the Scot, of the technical training college in Manzini." MR VISSER And what did you do, where did you go? MR WASSERMAN "I and Mr Botha then took up hiding places in the rear of the kombi and we were covered by some large cardboard boxes." MR VISSER Yes. MR WASSERMAN "Shortly after standing off outside there, Dion Cele came forward and he entered the vehicle by the sliding door." MR VISSER Why not through the passenger door? MR WASSERMAN He couldn't enter through the left-hand door as we had jimmied that lock to make it useless, thereby enforcing him to use the sliding door, giving us the sign that he was indeed in the vehicle. MR VISSER Alright. Now I may have understood this incorrectly, judging from what Mr Botha says. You say in paragraph 6 "He went to sit on the passenger's seat next to Sikhakane." Is that the position? MR WASSERMAN I think that is correct position, yes. MR VISSER So I did understand you correctly. You differ from Mr Botha, who says that he sat on the seat behind the driver. MR WASSERMAN I'm not too sure where he was. I do realise - I then pulled him over once we had moved off. Sikhakane drove off. There was no indication from Cele that he was aware of our presence in the vehicle. I then, and Col Botha, then moved the box and grabbed hold of Cele and pulled him over to where I was, to the rear of the vehicle. MR VISSER What did he do? MR WASSERMAN He shouted and he kicked and he struggled. MR VISSER Yes, what did you do? MR WASSERMAN I used force. I smacked, I slapped him. MR VISSER You say you slapped and punched him a few times. MR WASSERMAN Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER Would that be correct? MR WASSERMAN And spoke and shouted at him. MR VISSER Yes. MR WASSERMAN And afterwards he became quiet when he realised that - I had told him that we're policemen from South Africa, and upon that he relaxed, he then quietened down. MR VISSER Well he became quiet. MR WASSERMAN He became quiet. MR VISSER Probably didn't relax, but ... MR WASSERMAN Well he became quiet. MR VISSER Yes. Go on. MR WASSERMAN "We then returned to the Nerston area. Sikhakane stayed behind. Col Botha drove the kombi. I was still with Mr Cele and we drove out illegally, out of Swaziland." MR VISSER Yes. MR WASSERMAN "We then continued on to this house next to Amsterdam, where the senior officers made an attempt to - well they started to debrief him and made attempts to recruit him." MR VISSER Did you take part in the interrogation or not? MR WASSERMAN No, I didn't. MR VISSER Alright. So was he willing to be recruited? CHAIRPERSON Were you present when there was an attempt to interrogate him or recruit him? MR WASSERMAN Not. No, Sir, not in any form. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER Right. Did you the at some point leave Amsterdam and go to a farm in the Elandskop area in the district of Pietermaritzburg? MR WASSERMAN That's correct, Sir. MR VISSER In paragraph 10 you say after you arrived on the farm, at some point Col Botha left for Durban. MR WASSERMAN That is correct, Sir. MR VISSER And he was not present during the remainder of the event? MR WASSERMAN Correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What happened on the farm? MR WASSERMAN On the farm Cols Taylor and Vorster continued in length to try and recruit Mr Cele to come over. MR VISSER Were you present at that time from time to time? MR WASSERMAN From time to time, very irregularly, Mr Chair. MR VISSER Did you gain the impression that Mr Cele was willing to co-operate? MR WASSERMAN I was informed by both Taylor and Vorster that he was not prepared to co-operate. MR VISSER Please carry on with paragraph 12. MR WASSERMAN "Much much later, Col Taylor informed me that it was virtually impossible for this man to co-operate and I then went in and I had a chat with him. He then gave me the impression that he would not co-operate. I slapped him three or four times. It made no difference whatsoever." MR VISSER Was this a serious assault? MR WASSERMAN No, it was not serious, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Why did you slap him? MR WASSERMAN Up to that stage Mr Taylor and Mr Vorster had been "Mr Nice Guy", in one of the techniques that we use, so I was prepared to see if the raucous shouting and few slaps would create a different environment, but it did not work. MR VISSER Alright. In paragraph 13 you say that Taylor then spoke to you and Vorster and stated that it's clear that Cele was not recruitable, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Continue there please. MR WASSERMAN "He gave us various reasons. He did state that if Cele were to be released it would be an embarrassment to the South African Government, as he had been abducted illegally in Swaziland and brought out illegally to the Republic. That was one of the major reasons." MR VISSER Yes, and could Cele, according to your insight, be released to go back to Swaziland unhindered? MR WASSERMAN No, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Why not? MR WASSERMAN He could have - he would have continued with his activities. In addition, placed Sikhakane in danger, as he would have realised by now that he was an agent of the Security Police. MR VISSER Yes. And you say in paragraph 13, Taylor then ordered Vorster and yourself to see to it that Cele be eliminated? MR WASSERMAN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you associate yourself with that order? MR WASSERMAN Yes, I did, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER What did you then do, you and Vorster? MR WASSERMAN Mr Vorster and I then proceeded to the pine tree plantation where we commenced to dig a grave. And once we had dug that grave we returned to the house where Mr Taylor was still with Mr Cele. MR VISSER Yes. You remember something when you entered, is that correct? MR WASSERMAN Yes. Once when we'd entered the house, Mr Taylor gave us the sign that Mr Cele was to be now taken outside and to be eliminated and I realised that Mr Cele had not - had decided not to co-operate at all. MR VISSER And that you had to proceed. MR WASSERMAN And we had to proceed with the operation. MR VISSER Yes. MR WASSERMAN "We then informed Mr Cele that he was going to be moved to another safehouse. We blindfolded him so he could not see where he could go. His hands were handcuffed behind his back." MR VISSER Now the blindfold you're talking about, Mr Vorster seems to remember a hood made of material of some kind. What is your recollection, if anything, about the blindfold? MR WASSERMAN I can't recall if it was a bag or if it was merely a piece of cloth wrapped around the eyes, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Alright. What did you do then? MR WASSERMAN "His hands were cuffed behind his back and we took him outside, outside the house and off the veranda and along the road, he walked along the road to the graveside." MR VISSER Did you steer him in the direction which you wanted him to go? MR WASSERMAN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes. MR WASSERMAN "At the spot right next to the grave I had in my possession a police baton. I rendered him unconscious with a heavy blow to the head." MR VISSER Why did you do that? MR WASSERMAN To render him unconscious, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER For what purpose? MR WASSERMAN Then I was able to shoot. So he would not know. MR VISSER Alright. Please continue. MR WASSERMAN "Once unconscious I shot Mr Cele twice in the head." MR VISSER What with? MR WASSERMAN With a silenced makarov. MR VISSER Was this your firearm? MR WASSERMAN No, this makarov had been given to me earlier by Mr Taylor. MR VISSER Right. MR WASSERMAN "He was then placed in the grave." MR VISSER And the grave was filled in? MR WASSERMAN Clothing first removed. MR VISSER I'm sorry yes, you removed his clothing. MR WASSERMAN Yes. MR VISSER Can you remember whether you left any of the clothing on the body or whether you took everything off? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, I seem to recall he was completely naked, but I could be wrong. MR VISSER Yes, alright. And then you filled in the grave. MR WASSERMAN We filled in the grave. After sprinkling some line on the body first, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes. Do you agree with Mr Vorster as to the reasons or the purpose of the lime? MR WASSERMAN Yes, Mr Chairman, I do. MR VISSER Right, and then what did you do? MR WASSERMAN We then filled in the grave and then proceeded up to the house with the clothing and burnt the clothing to ashes, to cinders. MR VISSER How do you see your participation in this incident as you set it out from paragraph 19 onwards? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, in doing what I did I saw as my duties as a policemen ...(indistinct) of the Security Branch, and I saw it as relevant to battling the conflict and the political violence that we were undergoing at the time. MR VISSER Go on. MR WASSERMAN We were conditioned by speeches of politicians and directions of our senior officers, to do all that was in our power to confront the revolutionary onslaught at all costs. And there were times when in terms of the prevailing legislation of the time, it was not possible to solve all the problems that came our way. And the present case is perhaps an example of such an instance. In view of the above, I was in the bona fide belief that what I did in the present instance, in order to combat or derail the revolutionary onset and to protect the government and the National Party from political embarrassment, did fall within my express or implied authorities. I did not participate in these events for any personal gain and was not driven by any personal spite or malice and I received no reward. MR VISSER You apply at page 1, for amnesty for the abduction or the man stealing - I notice in the Criminal Procedure Act it's two different offences Chairperson, I wasn't aware of that. I'm not quite certain which is the major offence, although it would appear that abduction might be because under the old Criminal Procedure code, abduction was a capital offence, you could receive the death penalty for that. But be that as it may, you apply for abduction or man stealing of Mr Dion Cele, his unlawful detention or depravation of his liberty, his murder - yes, I've forgotten Chairperson, I do apologise - for the assault on Mr Cele as you have explained, here in Swaziland as well as on the farm and for - and what I've also neglected to put in in your case is any offence in terms of regulations pertaining to movement, border movements. Is that correct? As well as any offence or delict which may be supported by the fact. Is that so? MR WASSERMAN That's so, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence which we wish to place before you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON It has just occurred to me that we don't know the date on which this man was abducted. Can you tell us when that was? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, if my memory serves me well it was the 6th of July 1988. May I just check please, Chairman. Mr Chairman, can we check that, whether we have a specific date during the lunch hour and inform you when we come back? CHAIRPERSON Yes, and likewise the date on which he was killed. MR VISSER Yes, certainly Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If you know the date of one, then you'd know without difficulty ... MR VISSER Yes, certainly. We will try to establish the exact date if possible. CHAIRPERSON And in what language was all this discussion and negotiation with Cele taking place. MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, when I ever spoke to him it would have been in English, but Mr Taylor spoke in Zulu. CHAIRPERSON And did you know that his conversation or his discussion or questioning of Cele was in Zulu? MR WASSERMAN Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You didn't have the need for an interpreter. MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, Mr Taylor spoke Zulu fluently, it was - he would have been handling that himself. CHAIRPERSON Have you any questions to ask of this witness? MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got none. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR VISSER Perhaps I could answer your question straight away, Chairperson, before Ms Thabethe starts. The TRC Report, in volume 2 at page 131, places the date in July 1988. No closer than that. But we will still see whether we can find a closer date. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please. MR VISSER I seem to recall having read somewhere "6th of July", Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well you'll let us know. Have you any questions, Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE Just a few, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you. Actually, Mr Wasserman it's one question. How do you reconcile the evidence of Mr Botha and Vorster, that at no stage was Mr Cele assaulted and your evidence that he was assaulted by yourself in Swaziland and on the farm? MR WASSERMAN Well I never saw either of them ever assault him. CHAIRPERSON I think the question clearly is that it seems that they didn't see you assault him. In other words, there was no evidence of any assault as far as they were concerned, and you have told us that you assaulted. And I think the question is now, are you in a position to reconcile the difference between your evidence and their evidence? MR WASSERMAN Oh, now I understand yes, Sir. The assault in Swaziland, I would hardly even say that was an assault, that was a matter of first of all securing the man there. Mr Vorster and Mr Botha weren't present in the farmhouse when I assault Dion Cele in the farmhouse. They were not present, so they would not know, Mr Chairman. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Just for the sake of clarity and for the record, Mr Botha did in fact say in his testimony that he does recall you assaulting the deceased in the car, in the kombi when you were trying to subdue him at that point. So just for the record, he did say that in fact. MR WASSERMAN Yes, Mr Chairman. MR LAX Do you know what happened to the shell casings when you shot him? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, he would have been in the grave, I would have leant into the grave, I would imagine the "doppies" would have fallen into the grave. MR LAX But obviously you've no idea. MR WASSERMAN No, I have no idea. Perhaps they were lost in the exhumation, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV BOSMAN Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Wasserman, just on the issue of the interrogation. On a question put to you by the Chairman, you responded that Mr Cele was fluent in Zulu. What interests me was were the other interrogators fluent in Zulu? Did he speak Zulu all the time? MR WASSERMAN Mr Chairman, when I ever spoke to him he spoke to me in English. I think when Mr Vorster and Mr Botha spoke to him he spoke in English, but when he spoke with Mr Taylor the entire proceedings would have been in Zulu, and they were in Zulu in my presence. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON It's the appropriate time to take the adjournment. Mr Visser, we are going to adjourn for 45 minutes, we'll resume at a quarter to two. MR NEL Mr Chairperson, I wonder if I may ask for an indulgence till 2 o'clock, I have a problem that I have to rush back to the office because police headquarters have queried me and they would like an answer from me with regards to the queries of my further appearances on behalf of Col Taylor, before 3 o'clock this afternoon. I'm terribly sorry to put the Committee in this position, but I will be back at 2 o'clock if it is possible. CHAIRPERSON Yes. We will not - you understand that you'll be proceeding on behalf of Col Taylor? MR NEL Mr Chairperson, the other applications, for instance the Thombi Khubeka matter, was orchestrated by Mr Taylor and in consultation with my learned colleagues here, they have felt and I have - well I have brought it to the police' attention that it might be of assistance if I do appear on his behalf. CHAIRPERSON Well we can't deal with an application for amnesty on behalf of somebody who is deceased. MR NEL I realise that. CHAIRPERSON So I think that should eliminate that problem. MR NEL Very well, Mr Chair, I'll be back at quarter to two. CHAIRPERSON But you can try, if you can be back at quarter to, we'll resume at a quarter to two. MR NEL Thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS