amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-18 DURBAN 6 MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA AM7560/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53617&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9908100903_dbn_990818db.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON It's never possible to do things the way one would like them to do with all these difficulties that conspire against you. However, Mr Webster is here and may we proceed with the matter in which Mr Webster is involved, as counsel. You were being questioned at the end of yesterday by Mr Webster, you're reminded that you're still under oath, do you understand? MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WEBSTER Thank you, Chairperson. We broke off yesterday when I had asked you about the radios and being in radio communication, do you recall? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson MR WEBSTER Were you in fact in radio communication? MR BOTHA Yes. MR WEBSTER With all the participating people? MR BOTHA I'm not sure whether we had radio contact with all the vehicles but we were in contact with some people. MR WEBSTER One would have expected every vehicle to have had a radio, do you agree with me? MR BOTHA That is possible. MR WEBSTER I just want us to back up a bit and get back to the police station at kwaMashu. Obviously somebody was in charge of the operation, do you remember saying that is so? MR BOTHA Yes. MR WEBSTER And was that Breytenbach? MR BOTHA Lt Breytenbach was in charge of the reaction unit. MR WEBSTER I'll go back, Mr Botha. Somebody was in charge of the entire operation, is that not so? MR BOTHA The senior man in the entire operation was General Steyn. MR WEBSTER Was he in charge of the entire operation? MR BOTHA Globally yes. MR WEBSTER I'm not talking of seniority, I want the person who was the man who was in charge to whom communications had to be made who was going to give orders and all that. Was that the general? MR BOTHA As the senior man at the police station yes, that's correct. MR WEBSTER Please Mr Botha, I'm having difficulty. CHAIRPERSON Put it to him if you think it was somebody else. MR WEBSTER Was it not Breytenbach who was in charge of the entire operation? MR BOTHA Lt Breytenbach was in charge of the reaction unit. MR WEBSTER And you said he was the person because of the training, of the specialist training, who were going to take charge about stopping the vehicle? MR BOTHA Yes. MR WEBSTER So insofar as stopping and arresting those people who was concerned, that was a responsibility and it fell under direct command of Breytenbach? MR BOTHA Yes. MR WEBSTER So he was in charge? MR WEBSTER Yes. CHAIRPERSON No, I thought you said who was in charge at the kwaMashu Police Station? MR WEBSTER Sorry, that is where it was determined that this is a person who is in charge before they go out, in other words from the moment that you then left the police station it was known that the officer in charge was Breytenbach? MR BOTHA Chairperson, let me put it this way, a person in charge as far as the arrest and the entire operation, that was Lt Breytenbach of the reaction unit. CHAIRPERSON Let's progress. MR WEBSTER Thank you Chairperson. In other words from the moment that you saw the vehicle you were supposed to report to Breytenbach? MR BOTHA Yes, I think that was the case. MR WEBSTER And then Breytenbach was the person who would give instructions as what was to be done? MR BOTHA In respect of his people in the reaction unit, yes. MR WEBSTER Not the entire operation, about the apprehension of those people? MR BOTHA Perhaps I should just explain that Lt Breytenbach was the person in charge of the reaction unit but as regards what happened at kwaMashu Police Station there were more senior people than Breytenbach, but to answer your question as regards the action regarding the arrest of the people, that was the responsibility and task of Lt Breytenbach. MR WEBSTER So despite the fact that you were aware that the stopping of that vehicle, the arrest of those people was the responsibility of the specialised unit, you decided to usurp their authority and proceed to try and stop the vehicle untrained and inadequately trained as you were? MR BOTHA The other members who were present were there in support of the reaction unit. MR WEBSTER Yes but you didn't have that experience don't you agree? CHAIRPERSON They worked as a team. MR WEBSTER I understand Chairperson, what I'm saying is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Does it matter very much? MR WEBSTER Chairperson, insofar as the full disclosure, this is our point. CHAIRPERSON No you see full disclosure must be on something really substantial. You know, there might be minor differences of who did what and who did when. MR WEBSTER That is quite so, Chairperson, I agree completely with you. CHAIRPERSON But I think if it was something substantial then you must make that point. MR WEBSTER The point that I wish to make here Chairperson is and probably with a little digging we might have gotten a little further but the point that I want to make to Mr Botha is this That it had never been your intention to apprehend those people, that in fact it had been decided that those people would be just butchered and killed and that is why, knowing that Breytenbach was the person responsible for the operation, that is namely the arrest of those people, you went above orders contrary to the arrangements and decided to shoot at the occupants of that vehicle? MR BOTHA Chairperson, the purpose was not or there was no prior decision taken beforehand that the people had to be killed. MR WEBSTER I want to take to the scene now of the shooting as you were then travelling on the road. You told us that you were in the left lane, the vehicle was in the centre lane, remember? MR BOTHA Yes. MR WEBSTER And before it stopped you slackened a bit so it was slightly ahead of you? MR BOTHA Yes. MR WEBSTER You then say that the kombi overtook the vehicle, drove in front of the vehicle, stopped so that the vehicle collided into the rear of the kombi, remember? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR WEBSTER Is that when the firing then started? MR BOTHA The shooting had already started before that, before the vehicle collided for the second time the shooting had already taken place. MR WEBSTER You didn't know where it came from? MR BOTHA I shot, I fired shots. MR WEBSTER We've heard that you shot at the wheels? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR WEBSTER Now you don't know where that shooting came from? MR BOTHA As far as the other shots are concerned, it came from the right hand side of that vehicle, that's where it originated from. MR WEBSTER Now it could not then have come from the kombi because the kombi was already ahead of that vehicle? MR BOTHA No but the kombi was in front of the vehicle after the shooting had already taken place. The shooting took place whilst the kombi was on the right hand side of this suspect vehicle. MR WEBSTER Now we have an application from Wasserman and from that application it appears that the shots which he fired or that could have been fired into the vehicle could not have been a fuselage or a number of shots but a couple of shots? MR VISSER Chairperson, I would like to hear from my learned friend where he finds that in Wasserman's affidavit? MR WEBSTER Sorry, we'll get the evidence from the applicant himself when he testifies. But are you saying that there was heavy firing from the kombi before the kombi drove ahead of this vehicle and stopped? MR BOTHA Shots were fired from the direction of the kombi. MR WEBSTER Now this is what I want to establish from you, was it just a couple of shots or was it heavy firing? MR BOTHA There was fairly heavy shooting. From the moment I started shooting there was a massive attack of shots being fired from various directions. MR WEBSTER We know that you were firing? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR WEBSTER We know the kombi was firing. Where else was the shooting coming from? MR BOTHA From the right hand rear side of my vehicle. MR WEBSTER The vehicles then all came to a stop at some stage or another? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR WEBSTER Can you then tell us which vehicles were at which position after they came to a stop? MR BOTHA My vehicle, the one that I drove, was on the left hand side at the rear, in relation to the suspect vehicle the kombi was in front of the vehicle and then there were other vehicles behind us, I can't remember the exact positions and who drove them etcetera. MR WEBSTER Because it was at three main carriageway, would you say that those vehicles that were behind were in the lane in which the vehicle was? MR BOTHA I can't recall but there were vehicles behind my vehicle, possibly spread over the three lanes or two lanes, but there were vehicles, I can't remember exactly where each of them was. MR WEBSTER Okay, the fast lane, was that open to traffic when your vehicles all came to a stop? MR BOTHA I'm not sure, it might have been the case, I can't recall. MR WEBSTER As best as you can recall Mr Botha, was there a vehicle on the fast lane, a vehicle from the reaction unit, whatever with any of the police officers? MR BOTHA There were vehicles behind my vehicle so the possibility existed there could have been such a vehicle. MR WEBSTER No, I understand, you've already told me about the vehicles behind yours, I'm talking about vehicles on the fast lane. Were there such vehicles? MR BOTHA What I can recall is as I've described that my vehicle was on the left hand side of the suspect vehicle, the vehicle itself and then to the right in front of the suspect vehicle or kombi. MR WEBSTER You cannot then recall any other vehicles on this - whether behind you or behind the suspect vehicle or in the fast lane? MR BOTHA There were vehicles behind mine that I can recall but I can't recall exactly. Well, it was a long time ago, I can't remember exactly where they were but there were vehicles behind mine. MR WEBSTER Was at any stage that any other vehicle could have shot from the left of the vehicle in which the four occupants were besides your vehicle? MR BOTHA I suppose it's possible because when the shooting starting there was heavy shooting so it's possible. MR WEBSTER What is possible? MR BOTHA Chair, let me explain that during this shooting it wasn't only police vehicles that were present, there were also vehicles belonging to members of the public. We tried to put these vehicles between ourselves and the suspect vehicle so there weren't only police vehicles on the road but also many other vehicles driven by members of the public. MR WEBSTER Don't be evasive Mr Botha, my question to you is very simple insofar as shots being fired from the left side of that vehicle, was there any other vehicle from which shots could have come besides your vehicle? MR BOTHA It's possible. MR WEBSTER Which vehicle would that have been? MR BOTHA I can't remember but it's possible. MR WEBSTER This is strange, Mr Botha, you're in radio communication, from what you have told us, your vehicle was the only vehicle as far as I can understand that was to the left of the vehicle in which the occupants were and there's possibility there was another vehicle on the left hand side that you cannot even remember or can tell us about? Is that the position? MR BOTHA Chairperson, as I've already testified there were several vehicles, not only police vehicles but vehicles belonging to members of the public, the road was very busy when it took place. MR WEBSTER I'm not talking of ...(intervention) MR VISSER No, Mr Chairperson ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think if that you would be doing yourself a favour, the questions are really being directed at the police vehicles. Admittedly there were other vehicles that were using the road and so on but I think that we are concentrating on the police vehicles, the vehicles of the reaction unit and so on, that's what he is talking about. That's what you're interested in? MR WEBSTER Chairperson, thank you for that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER But Chairperson, this witness has said time and again "I didn't look back, I don't know where those vehicles were". He keeps on saying that and it's the only answer he gives. CHAIRPERSON No, we're asking him about whether there was firing from those vehicles. MR VISSER Yes well he says he doesn't know where the vehicles were. CHAIRPERSON That there was heavy firing the question seems to be - you see the way, the picture we've got is here is a suspect vehicle, this vehicle is behind that, the kombi was alongside and at some stage got in front. He talks about heavy firing and I don't have a picture in my mind as to where that heavy firing came from apart from his attempt at shooting behind and the kombi. Now, were there other vehicles that were firing? MR VISSER Yes he gave that answer, he said from behind him and to his right there was also firing but he didn't observe the motor vehicles, Chairperson. MR WEBSTER Yes, so there was firing from other police vehicles, plain and simple isn't it? MR BOTHA That is correct Chairperson. MR WEBSTER Chairperson, my interest at the moment is vehicles to the left of the vehicle of that Cressida. Not interested in all the other, behind the vehicle, to the right of the vehicle, we're talking about the left of that vehicle. MR BOTHA It is possible but if I may just explain, in a situation like this where shots are fired so quickly, your attention is focused on the vehicle in front of you and the danger and the problem, I was nearly knocked off the road twice, so there's not a lot of time to then make observations around me. Your focus is on the present situation. MR WEBSTER Surely you would have known or been aware of the presence of another vehicle in front of you, police vehicle in front of you which could have fired at that Cressida because I take it that that vehicle, once the Cressida had come to a stop would have also stopped there, not just driven away that you could never have seen it, do you agree with me? MR BOTHA Sorry, could you just repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON Is it possible that apart from the kombi where you say at one stage was on the right hand side of the suspect vehicle and then came in front of the suspect vehicle, there was a collision between the suspect vehicle and the rear of the kombi, was there a possibility that there was another police vehicle? MR WEBSTER On the left hand side of the Cressida. CHAIRPERSON On the left hand side in front of the Cressida. MR WEBSTER In front of Mr Botha's vehicle. CHAIRPERSON In front of your vehicle on the left hand side. Could there have been a vehicle on the left hand side of the suspect vehicle? MR BOTHA As I said, it's possible but I can't remember it. CHAIRPERSON You can't remember. MR WEBSTER All things consider, Mr Botha, that vehicle would not have driven away after the Cressida was stopped, do you agree? MR BOTHA Which vehicle? MR WEBSTER If the vehicle, another vehicle had been present in front of your vehicle? CHAIRPERSON Police vehicle? MR WEBSTER Police vehicle from which shots could have been fired? CHAIRPERSON Yes, did any of the police vehicles drive away immediately after the suspect vehicle had come to a stop? MR BOTHA It's very possible, it's possible but I can't remember. MR WEBSTER Mr Botha, very possible is so wide that as a former senior officer I would have thought that you talk about probabilities. I want to put it to you that it's inherently improbable that such a vehicle would have existed that it would have driven away and that you would just be saying it's possible. There was no such a vehicle, do you agree? MR BOTHA I said that I can't remember, I conceded that the possibility existed but I can't remember. MR WEBSTER I want to suggest some reason for this amnesia in this regard Mr Botha. MR VISSER But just before my learned friend - Chairperson, may I come in here? CHAIRPERSON You'll re-examine, you'll re-examine. MR VISSER But Chairperson, with respect, if my learned friend is going to cross-examine a witness, at least he should put to him is it his case that there was in fact a police vehicle before this witness? It's quite simple to put that to the witness and we'll all know what this is about. We are now on a speculation and we're going on to a second speculation upon a first speculation that there might have been a vehicle. We still don't know. This witness says he was behind that car, he didn't see another police vehicle, now couldn't my learned friend just tell all of us whether he is putting to the witness that there was such a vehicle then we can speculate from a fact, Chairperson, at least. CHAIRPERSON Alright, I think I would myself require that to be clarified. It's your contention that to the left of the suspect vehicle and in front of his vehicle there was another vehicle, another police vehicle? MR WEBSTER Chairperson, unfortunately when you're dealing with cases of this nature where the families do not have access, we don't even have dockets of mysteriously ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well there are no eyewitnesses accounted for. MR WEBSTER I have Chairperson, the only thing as my weapon at the moment are post-mortems and I will deal with why I make or question the witness ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well now you see that is what is important you see, to ask questions for the sake of asking questions gets us nowhere, I also don't want to - I also would like to know the direction in which we are moving when you ask these questions. MR WEBSTER Chairperson, the direction is towards the end these post-mortems. CHAIRPERSON Well get to them. MR WEBSTER Chairperson, I don't know whether jumping into the post-mortems is really going to get us, without laying the basis ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, I'm not saying you must jump into the post-mortems. You know, I don't have a clear picture, I got the impression you were going to put to this witness that there was in fact another vehicle to the left of the suspect vehicle, that's the point of your questioning? MR WEBSTER Chairperson, what I'm going to say to him is that some of the occupants had injuries on their bodies which were on the left sides of the bodies. CHAIRPERSON Put that to him. MR WEBSTER Chairperson, with all of the respect may I be allowed to lay the basis for getting to that? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WEBSTER Because otherwise I know the answer is going to be "it's possible" or "it's not possible" and we are not getting to probabilities and I think you are interested in probabilities Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes we are, we're interested in arriving at as much of the truth as possible. MR WEBSTER Thank you Chairperson. Before we get to the post-mortems, we're getting closer to the post-mortems, Mr Botha. Can you tell us about the positions of the occupants? CHAIRPERSON You mean how many sat in the front, how many at the back or who sat where, is that it? MR WEBSTER Chairperson could we just ...(intervention) (Disturbance from members of the public) CHAIRPERSON I will ask you to leave this hall if you interrupt these proceedings. You will have a chance to talk. Please don't interrupt these proceedings. Yes do carry on. MR WEBSTER The various, there were four people in that vehicle and I would just like to have some idea about who was sitting where? MR BOTHA Chairperson, there were four people in the vehicle, I can't - but I didn't know the people, so I can't tell you which person, which individual sat where, but there were four people in the vehicle. MR WEBSTER Who is Capt or who was Capt L Botha? MR BOTHA Capt L Botha was a colleague of mine who was later transferred to I think it was Port Elizabeth or East London. MR WEBSTER He was in the special branch? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR WEBSTER Was he present on that day? MR BOTHA I'm not sure. MR WEBSTER You see, one of the strange things is that Capt Botha was able to state on affidavit where each of the persons were seated, do you find that strange? MR BOTHA I suppose it's possible. MR WEBSTER Possible? Probability? MR BOTHA As I said it's a possibility. CHAIRPERSON He doesn't even remember whether he was there? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR WEBSTER Were the occupants, that is now after they had been shot at, were they in seated positions? MR BOTHA They were still in the particular vehicle in a semi-seated position, some of them. MR WEBSTER Let's talk about the left front passenger, what position was he in? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it is not easy for me to describe thirteen years afterwards as to what the attitude and the position and lying and the seating of each individual in that vehicle. MR WEBSTER At best could you recall whether he was in a seated position? MR BOTHA It is possible. MR WEBSTER And the one who was in the left back, left rear passenger, was he also in a seated position? MR BOTHA Chairperson, the persons who were killed, so if we speak of a seating position then we do not speak of a upright seating position but we would say a seating/lying position if I recall correctly. MR WEBSTER You see because according to my instructions after rigor mortis the people were still in seated positions, that's according to the families. You wouldn't dispute that? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it is not logical that a person who had already been killed would remain in a seated position, in an upright seated position. MR WEBSTER But in a seated position. CHAIRPERSON They may have been reclining but still seated. MR WEBSTER That is the point I'm making, not necessarily straight up but generally in a seated position, that's all I want to know. CHAIRPERSON Quite right, in other words they were not standing and they were not sleeping, they were not lying down. MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR WEBSTER Okay let's take the first one and that would be the person who was seated in the left front. According to the post-mortem and according to the affidavit of Capt L Botha, that person was Mbongeni Henry Zondi. You ...(intervention) MR VISSER Chairperson, can we now hand them in as exhibits so that we know where we are, Chairperson? MR WEBSTER That would be post-mortem number 2021/86, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Hold it. 2021? MR WEBSTER 2021. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR WEBSTER According to Capt L Botha he was seated on the left front passenger side or seat of the vehicle. You would not dispute that? MR BOTHA One moment please, Chairperson? MR LAX It's on the third page of that set of documents. Sorry Mr Webster, is this going to be the first one you're going to refer to? MR WEBSTER This is the first one I'm referring to. CHAIRPERSON Alright, do carry on. MR LAX That will be Chair, Exhibit E. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR WEBSTER Could we then take - we should have actually started with 2019 but we'll make 2019 Exhibit F, that relates to Mabaso. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR WEBSTER 2020 MR LAX That's Brian Thabani Mamela? CHAIRPERSON Exhibit G CHAIRPERSON: What is the number. MR WEBSTER Sorry, 2022 Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WEBSTER If we've also numbered them unfortunately it's not going to be very scientific. CHAIRPERSON But we'll do the best we can. MR WEBSTER We'll do the best we can. There is an annexure to paragraph 4 which is labelled DR31/86, it's a typed list of various injuries that were found on the body of the deceased. CHAIRPERSON Is it an annexure to paragraph 4 of what document? MR WEBSTER Of Exhibit E. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, do you want to give us a number as well? MR WEBSTER May we say it's E13. We have not numbered the ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry Chair, should we not just paginate this bundle E and then we'll get the page reference E - whatever it is? MR WEBSTER It will then be page 14, A 14, the first one being the cover. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WEBSTER Mr Botha, we see according to E14 that the deceased had at least ten injuries, do you agree with me? MR BOTHA Chairperson, may I just have regard to the document? MR VISSER It's actually page 15. MR WEBSTER It would be 15? I'm sorry, I'm indebted to my learned friend. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR WEBSTER E15 and E16 is the list of the injuries that were found on the deceased's body, do you agree? I want us to go to E17. I take it that injuries marked 1, 2 and 3 on the figure on the top left corner of E17, the arrows depicting a downward direction would seem to indicate that the shots or the injuries must have been caused by bullets coming from above and from the right side of the body of the deceased in that case, do you agree? MR BOTHA It's possible, Chairperson. MR WEBSTER That there can be no other explanation? Do you agree? CHAIRPERSON He said it is possible. MR WEBSTER Bearing in mind that those - sorry, I'll rephrase the question Chairperson. Those injuries could not have been caused by shooting from you, do you agree with me? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson, I don't believe that it was my shots that I had fired. MR WEBSTER And similarly with injuries depicted as 8 and 5, on that figure on E15? MR BOTHA 8 and 5? MR WEBSTER 8 is on the right hand thumb of the figure and 5 is from the right knee of that figure. MR BOTHA Chairperson, may I just ask, this person where was he seated? MR WEBSTER E3, that is left front. MR BOTHA Left front? It is difficult to distinguish, Chairperson, if we look at 8, point 8 on page 17, then one could assume or I suppose that this person's hand was low or it could have been high. It's difficult to say whether these were my shots because I crouched low in the vehicle but it is impossible for me to say whether it was my shots or not. CHAIRPERSON Yes, let's proceed. MR WEBSTER But from what you've told us, you didn't - you couldn't have held your firearm at such a height that would have hit a hand when you were aiming at the wheel. It reversed to that ground yesterday? MR BOTHA What I had said was that I shot at the left rear wheel of the vehicle but it may be possible that some of my rounds may have been fired off higher than just the wheel. ADV BOSMAN Mr Botha, may I just have clarity? I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr Webster. What type of firearm did you have? MR BOTHA It was a 9 mm pistol. ADV BOSMAN So it was not an automatic firearm? MR BOTHA No. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Webster. MR WEBSTER Thank you. You see, I'm suggesting to you, Mr Botha, that none of these could have been caused by you, do you agree? MR BOTHA I don't know, Chairperson. MR WEBSTER And if one then bears in mind what the doctor has said regarding the cause of death, namely as being injuries 1, 2 and 3, then you could not have been responsible for the death of that person, do you agree? MR BOTHA As I have said, Chairperson, I don't know. MR WEBSTER Come on, Mr Botha, what can you speculate? That your bullets could have come from the right hand side bullets causing injuries 1, 2 and 3? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, my learned friend is being unfair to the witness. Does he have evidence in what direction this deceased was looking at the time he was shot? He might have been looking backwards for all we know. We're on such highly speculative ground, Chairperson. If my learned friend wants a concession from us, that the probabilities are that these bullet wounds were no caused by this witness, I will gladly concede it and we can get on with the matter. But surely, Chairperson, speculating with the witness, none of the two of them being an expert, none of the two of them having been on the scene to say what really happened. It takes us nowhere, with respect, Chairperson. MR WEBSTER With respect, no, not the two of us were not on the scene, Mr Botha was on the scene. CHAIRPERSON We are dealing with a fast moving incident where there is firing from all sides. MR WEBSTER That is quite so, I understand Chairperson, but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You haven't got a situation that is frozen and you are now examining it. This is an event that is developing fast and shooting. The injuries to the right hand side of the body, the head and so on, on your version it would be improbable for those injuries to have been caused by this man if he says he aimed at lower left rear of the car. MR WEBSTER Yes, that's all I wanted from the witness. CHAIRPERSON All he says, he aimed at the left rear of the car, some of his shots may not have gone to the level of the wheel, they may have gone higher up, that's as far as he goes. MR WEBSTER But insofar as the injuries and looking at them, Chairperson, with the greatest of respect, I do not think that sitting here as you are sitting, Chairperson, that one could even - if I were to argue that those were caused by the shots fired by this witness, aiming at the wheel even though they may have gone a little higher, that injuries 1, 2 and 3 could conceivably have been caused by him. CHAIRPERSON Unless the man was crouching at the time. MR WEBSTER Unless he was crouching with his head in such a direction in which case, bearing in mind that the left front seat and not even the back, the probability recedes even further. CHAIRPERSON Just let's talk about the probabilities, but you can't pin things down and come to definite final conclusions beyond a man saying "I fired at this vehicle, I don't think that I shot anybody, I don't think I shot anybody" and that's as far as he goes? MR WEBSTER Mr Botha, is it your evidence as the Chairperson has summarised it that insofar as you believed you did not shoot anybody? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I have a possibility that some of my shots may have hit the people, I fired at the left rear of the vehicle but it is possible that some of them - I do not know but it may be. MR WEBSTER Chairperson, I have to put the next question ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON You see there are people in the back seat, there are four passengers, some in the back, two in the front. We're dealing with the injury to the man in the front and these are all probabilities. You are firing from behind and it is being put that the injury to the chap on the front left hand side could not have been caused by you? MR BOTHA It's possible Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is that as far as we can go? MR WEBSTER Chairperson, I am grateful. And again the next question that I put is also merely on probability and subject to confirmation of instructions that as I indicated yesterday and even when it suggests further that injuries 1, 2 and 3 - Chairperson, this is speculative, it's the best I can do with the information available to me, please pardon me? CHAIRPERSON Yes do carry on. MR WEBSTER That injuries 1, 2 and 3 again on probability would be very consistent with firing from above the vehicle and hence the direction of the injuries of the bullets through the deceased's head. CHAIRPERSON Well now that doesn't convey a clear picture to me when you say from above the vehicle and then through the roof of the car? MR WEBSTER Through the roof of the car. CHAIRPERSON That's what you say could have happened? MR WEBSTER That could have happened, as I say unfortunately because of the inability to secure the necessary evidence may I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well there was no ballistic evidence at all, was there? MR WEBSTER At the moment nothing is available, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, right. MR WEBSTER So as I say I'll ask for your indulgence in putting that question. CHAIRPERSON It's being suggested that the injuries to the top of the head might have been caused from shots fired from above the car. Have you any comment to make? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I think it is highly improbable. CHAIRPERSON Yes, let's move on, it's improbable as far as he is concerned. MR WEBSTER We go on to Exhibit F, dealing with Blessing Mabaso. According to Capt Botha he was the driver of the vehicle and whilst we just look at the first page of Exhibit F you will notice there that there's a note: "The deceased was the driver of a vehicle which was conveying suspected terrorists and was killed in the shoot-out with the police, do you see that? MR BOTHA I see that Chairperson. MR WEBSTER That note must have been disinformation given to Capt Botha about the shoot-out, you admit that I'm sure? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I cannot comment to that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You don't know what was said to Lt Botha? MR BOTHA I don't know. MR WEBSTER But it would have been consistent with your actions afterwards in planting guns? CHAIRPERSON They could have easily denied that they planted the guns, they could have said that the guns were in the car. MR WEBSTER Pardon Sir? CHAIRPERSON They could have easily said that the guns were in the car. MR WEBSTER I agree Sir, but what I'm saying is what the witness has now admitted that this would be consistent with the planting of the guns in other words the shoot-out. CHAIRPERSON That's a matter for argument and a guess. MR WEBSTER We'll leave it at that, thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes. MR WEBSTER Let's go again to the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mabaso. MR WEBSTER We are dealing with Mabaso, the annexure again, of F, I think it's page 11 and probably whilst we are still here, it's quite in order, according to this exhibit the deceased had minimum of 11 injuries on his body, do you agree? MR BOTHA I see that it is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And if we look at 11 and 12, if we look at F13 and look on the figure on the right, unfortunately Chairperson my numbers are not very legible but when you look at the figurine on the right, top right corner, you see a great number of injuries? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Again, if you look at the injury on the left, the top left, on the right shoulder and then look at the figurine bottom left on the neck, it would appear that and considering what appears on descriptions on page 11 and 12, that none of those injuries could have come from the left or been fired from the left. MR VISSER Chairperson, with great respect, I hate to interrupt. My learned friend is putting points to the witness and he is misleading the Committee. I'm not saying he is doing so on purpose. Will you look at page 12 injury number 6 as an example. What does the doctor say about this, he says "The sixth wound is the penetrating wound which has the appearance of an entrance wound with a laceration of" such and such " that brings the body cavity to the left which was shot through posteriorally and the sixth rib stage through and the left lung in the vicinity of the leerus, it enters the lung itself" Clearly on the left and that Chairperson, according to his finding is a fatal shot. Then Chairperson, he says at the bottom of that page the last sentence: "The wounds which caused the death of this deceased is the shooting wounds number 3 which went through the chest and number 6 which also went through the chest." My learned friend is not putting accurately to the witness what the report appears to state, we having heard the doctor, we haven't heard any evidence but on the face value, Chairperson, there are four wounds that clearly according to the doctors and we will draw your attention to it later. According to the medical legal report, it clearly penetrated at least on the left side of the body if not from the left side of the body. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WEBSTER Chairperson, we'll deal with that counsel was getting ...(indistinct) we'll deal with the wounds. Let's deal with wound number 6. Look at the right, page 14, right bottom figure, look at the direction of the arrow, Mr Botha. Project your mind at seated passenger and the possibility of you on the left rear firing and hitting the person at the spot where it is indicated on the body, the exit wound being on the left side of the neck and tell me that that wound could have in any way have been caused by your firing from the left side of that vehicle bearing in mind that this person was the driver. Is there any probability that that could be so? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it is difficult for me to speculate here, a person or I cannot say in which position every individual body was during the shooting incident. According to my judgement they would have looked around to the left or to the right and that would certainly have influenced the exit and entry wounds so it is difficult to comment. MR WEBSTER You see unfortunately we just talk on probabilities since we don't have evidence, Mr Botha, I understand that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I think that you can't pin things down with any level of certainty. MR WEBSTER That is agreed, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And I'm afraid that is what you are trying to do. MR WEBSTER No, no, all I'm saying is on looking at this, looking at this injury, the probabilities. CHAIRPERSON That is the level that you can put it. MR WEBSTER That is the level at which I'm putting it, Chairperson and not as a fact, I couldn't ever do that but on the level of probability, wound number 6 could never have been caused from you firing from the left hand side. MR BOTHA Chairperson, it is difficult to speculate. If we look at this page 13 to which you refer, and that was the driver, it is difficult to speculate but I don't know. MR WEBSTER We'll leave it at that, we'll get the doctor to tell us. Let's do Exhibit H quickly, sorry G, I'm sorry it is Exhibit G. It is Mamela, G17, 18, 19 and 20. Would you agree with me that according to the doctor the injuries indicates that caused the death were 2, 4 and 7? 2, 4 and 7, it's at the bottom, it appears on bottom of page 17, last sentence. Chairperson, I wonder if you would have the original with you, at least the original photocopy because the others are copies from copies. MR LAX Sorry, the summary appears on page 18 not 17, you said 17. MR WEBSTER My apologies, I noticed that pages are missing from some of the exhibits and I'm talking of the page with the four figures of the body, the figurines here, that's the page at which I'm at and which the numbers of the wounds are set out. Unfortunately I've got a very poor copy but we then will revert to the description. Wound number two reads "The second shooting wound is to the neck on the right hand side." MR LAX Mr Webster, that wound is - if you look on page 19, it's the lower right hand figure, the injury to the neck there is visible only as a 2, although it's a bit light you can see it quite clearly. MR WEBSTER I was going to so speculate, thank you Sir, but that is the wound on Mr Mamela, wound number two and we know from page G3 that Mr Mamela was the right rear passenger. You could not have caused that wound? MR BOTHA I don't believe that I could have caused it Chairperson because this person, according to the document was seated on the right hand side in the back seat so this was in line with the shots which I fired which were aimed at the left rear tyre. MR WEBSTER I need some assistance in this regard Chairperson, wound number 4, it appears to be looking at the top left figure, to be on the left front side of the chest/ MR LAX That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WEBSTER You see that on the figure? MR WEBSTER Yes page 9, Chairperson. That is correct. MR LAX Just below the sternum. Round about the side of the sternum. MR WEBSTER The top section of the sternum, yes, or probably just above, I think whilst looking at it but looking at that you couldn't have caused that wound either? MR BOTHA Yes, I doubt it. CHAIRPERSON You see Chairperson, that's the danger of this cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON Just let him get done please, Mr Visser, so he can get done and you can make all the points that you wish about how valuable this is or not otherwise we are going to carry on. Please get done. MR WEBSTER And the same with wound number seven, do you agree? MR BOTHA Chairperson, my documents are very illegible. CHAIRPERSON Just help him point out wound seven precisely so that he can follow it on his diagram? MR WEBSTER In the description it says "Seventh wound is wound on the area of the pectoral Maj" MR BOTHA Which page Chairperson? MR WEBSTER 17, the second page of the list of the injuries, the very top one. MR LAX Just for the record that's page 18, you're obviously missing a page. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what is the description. MR WEBSTER "The seventh wound is a shooting wound in the area of the pectorals Major, right of the excelsior fold" CHAIRPERSON Now you will tell me what that means? MR WEBSTER I seem to understand it to be on the right shoulder, where the shoulder, the bottom shoulder - was it on the front side? I'm not really sure here, Chairperson, but as best I can, but towards on the right side of the body. MR LAX Mr Webster, if you look on page 20 which is the second page of diagrams, 7 is marked there with a line coming down. MR WEBSTER Would that be on the right side? MR LAX The figure on ...(intervention) MR WEBSTER Top left? MR LAX Correct. MR WEBSTER Again we agree that not likely? MR BOTHA That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON Not impossible, but not likely? MR WEBSTER Thank you Sir. MR BOTHA That is correct. MR WEBSTER That's the highest that one can pitch it. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WEBSTER Mr Botha and again, Chairperson, I will ask you to bear with me, there are some newspaper cuttings which we've managed to circulate. I don't know if you've had a chance to just look at them, Mr Botha? MR BOTHA I haven't seen it, Chairperson. MR WEBSTER I'm not going to suggest that those are the facts that what's there is true and correct, they are after all newspaper reports but they do seem to suggest that the police had great difficulty in issuing statements regarding this incidents, do you agree with me? And when I say statements ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You are asking him whether he agrees that that is what he has reported? MR WEBSTER That they had difficulties in the police issuing statements with the facts relating to the death of the four people. CHAIRPERSON Do you know anything at all about that? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson, I did not come to hear of that. MR WEBSTER And it appears when one looks at this and again, Chairperson, with your indulgence, looking at the third page of these cuttings, the head note reads "Four shot dead, police silent." And the bottom right: "Police remain silent over Natal shooting." CHAIRPERSON What is your question? MR WEBSTER I'm just going to suggest that indeed there was difficulty in the police issuing statements to explain this killing. Chairperson, I'm not putting it as a fact, I'm putting it as I indicated to you, as suggestion. CHAIRPERSON Well what question do you want to put to this witness? MR WEBSTER Would he agree with that suggestion? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I was not responsible, there was a officer appointed who would handle press releases at that stage so I would not know. MR WEBSTER This penultimate point that I wish to take, Mr Botha, after the killings from what I understand your evidence, it was either you or the general who came up with the suggestion of getting arms and planting them on the deceased? MR BOTHA Chairperson, Gen Steyn and I collectively decided at the scene that the weapons were to be fetched and I planted the arms in the vehicle. MR WEBSTER What I want to know, Mr Botha, and this is the question I'm going to ask you, the thought could not have emanated from the two of you simultaneously, not the agreement, the thought, whose idea was it? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it's difficult to say now, it could have been either mine or either General Steyn's but it was definitely one of the two of us who decided or came forward with the idea. MR WEBSTER Mr Botha, if you look to your right you will see members of the families of those four young people that you murdered. I take it that you are aware that their presence here is because they want to know who killed their children? Is that not so? MR BOTHA It's probably so, Chairperson. MR WEBSTER And from your evidence they can never ever know who killed their children, is that not so? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I have sketched it to the Committee that I fired shots and other members of the South African Police fired shots and what else can I say? MR WEBSTER Do you agree with me, Chairperson, that in their minds they will be justified in going away with that uncertainty and lack of knowledge about the identities of the killers, they will not even know who to forgive and who to pardon and who to reconcile with regarding the death of their children because we only have possibilities, we don't even know who killed their children? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I cannot state here what their thoughts are at the moment, the family members who are here, I don't know what they are thinking. CHAIRPERSON You can never know what ...(intervention) Sorry, Mr Botha, please finish? MR BOTHA It's difficult to comment as to how the families feel. MR WEBSTER You cannot dispute that that is how they feel, the way I've described for you is the way that they feel, you cannot dispute that? MR BOTHA You represent them so I would assume that it is so. MR WEBSTER Mr Botha, I didn't hear you at any stage, I know it's not one of the requirements for amnesty, I didn't hear any indication of any remorse from your side, am I correct? MR BOTHA Up to this stage not yet Chairperson. MR WEBSTER Chairperson, may I stop there and ask your indulgence that some concrete evidence come up and only on those aspects, namely that is the helicopter and the shots being fired from above the vehicle and in no other respect, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes I understand except that you would have realised that this Amnesty Committee doesn't have an indefinite lifespan? MR WEBSTER That is quite so, Chairperson, I am asking that indulgence with that pertinently in mind, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Right you are, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WEBSTER CHAIRPERSON Have you any questions to put to this witness, Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE No questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Botha, I will not enter into argument with you but let us just set the record straight? I would request you to once again page to Exhibit G, this incident deals with a person who sat on the back seat on the right hand side. You have conceded according to the questions which my learned friend put to you that wound number 4 could not have been caused by you, do you recall that? MR BOTHA Exhibit G? MR VISSER Exhibit G page 17 deals with the person who was on the back seat on the right hand side. You have conceded in cross-examination of Mr Webster that if you fired shots at the vehicle that those shots could have caused wound number 4? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR VISSER Well let us have a look at page 19? Before we arrive at the description, I will read the description and it would seem that on the right hand side figure on page 19 the topmost wound, although we cannot read it clearly, would be the entrance wound of wound number 4? MR BOTHA It would seem so. MR VISSER And on the left figure at the number 4 is the exit wound? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Well let us see what the doctor has to say about that. On page 17, Chairperson and that was the fatal shot, Chairperson, one of the shots which could have caused the death. The fourth wound is a wound anterior to the chest, that's in front and exists of a round wound, this enters the chest cavity and goes through the anterior edge of the left lung and whatever else that means. The rest I can't quite understand, Chairperson. "Enters the heart sac and so forth and so forth." From this cryptic description of this wound which speaks of whatever the round hit would be directly behind which you see on the left hand figure and if the suspicion is correct that it entered from behind and exited in front, do you still say that you could not have possibly caused that wound? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR VISSER So you say so? Very well. Commissioner Bosman asked you with which weapon you fired and you said with a pistol? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And then she asked you if it was an automatic weapon and you said no. MR BOTHA It was a 9 mm parabellum firearm Chairperson. MR VISSER The question is was it an automatic weapon? MR BOTHA It was not a machine gun as such. MR VISSER But that's not what I'm asking you, is it not an automatic weapon? MR BOTHA It can fire more than one shot. MR WEBSTER I'm sorry Chairperson, I don't know whether that is re-examination, it seems to be bordering on cross-examination? CHAIRPERSON I think that this is not a trial, this is a Committee of Enquiry, it will help us. MR WEBSTER Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If that question was not asked we might have asked some of it ourselves. I want to know how many rounds that 9 mm pistol would carry? MR VISSER To satisfy Commissioner Bosman's question, this pistol has a magazine, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR VISSER Which holds a certain amount of rounds. With which weapon did you fire? MR BOTHA A 9mm parabellum. MR VISSER CZ75? What type of weapon. MR BOTHA A 9mm parabellum. MR VISSER And how many rounds did the magazine hold? MR BOTHA I'm not certain but I think nine. MR VISSER And to answer the question further, the moment when you fired a shot by pulling the trigger of the firearm, what do you have to do to fire the next shot? MR BOTHA You once again pull the trigger. MR VISSER So all you do is you pull the trigger, is that what you did? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER So it is not a machine gun where you just once pull the trigger, the difference is it's an automatic weapon but you have to pull the trigger all the time but it loads itself? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In other words each time you pull the trigger it only fires one bullet? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you've told us it carries, the magazine carries 9 bullets? MR BOTHA I think so, I might be wrong but I think it's 9 Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Have you any recollection as to whether you used more than one magazine that day? MR BOTHA No definitely not, not more than one magazine, Chairperson. MR VISSER And the magazine which you used was it full before you started firing? Would you have ascertained that your magazine is full? MR BOTHA I am not certain whether it was full but I would believe that there were enough rounds in the vehicle. MR VISSER And did you empty the magazine or what is the position? MR BOTHA I am not certain but I believe that some of the rounds remained in the magazine. MR VISSER After or when the shooting commenced did you then foresee the danger that persons could be killed? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you say you heard many shots? MR BOTHA Reasonably many. MR VISSER And by your action you associated yourself with the order? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER When afterwards you investigated and you saw that four persons were killed in the vehicle, did you then associate yourself with this action? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you have testified that you went further, you tried to better the police's side by testifying falsely? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And while we are at that point, Mr Webster asked you are you a person who had lied much in the past and had compromised your position as a senior officer, can you recall that? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you gave two answers, the one was you said yes and afterwards you said when this matter was taken further that in this matter you had lied. What did you mean when you said yes to the first question that you had often told lies? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I was honest in the sense that during my work in the recent years it happened that one handled informers who when questions were put to them you could not give them honest answers and you would tell them lies with good intentions and it was also about the hiring of safe houses where you would not convey honesty to persons hiring the house out, because of circumstances one could not do so and the truth was contorted a little bit to protect informers. MR VISSER Was it also the fact that police stories concocted legends and cover stories? MR BOTHA You speak of cover stories? MR VISSER If you want to call it a cover story? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER This cover story, what was it all about? MR BOTHA The cover story would be if one approached someone with a false name or false request in order to obtain information from people, it was part of my work. MR VISSER And also if one wanted to discredit somebody by distributing false information about the person? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR VISSER In other words you now are referring to so called lies which you have told or your dishonesties outside the courts? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR VISSER But now in the legal system, in court, did you often tell lies there during evidence? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you tell the Committee how many times you've done so? MR BOTHA Chairperson, with the post-mortem of Brian Mamela I did indeed do so. MR VISSER And in this matter? MR BOTHA This is this matter. MR VISSER Oh, Mamela, I thought he said Mamela, I'm sorry I misunderstood him. MR VISSER You were also questioned about the fact that you knew that this action was illegal, that is so, is it not so? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And that is why you request amnesty? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And it should it be that you have acted under a direct order which was illegal would you in the spirit of those circumstances had not obeyed such an instruction? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. MR VISSER Nothing further thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Botha, how many people were in your car at the time when you were chasing this car? MR BOTHA It was only myself and Gen Steyn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did he sit alongside you in the front side? MR BOTHA That is correct, he was passenger on the left hand side of my vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Did he have a gun? MR BOTHA I don't think he had a weapon. CHAIRPERSON And you don't know whether he fired at this car as well? MR BOTHA No, he definitely didn't fire. CHAIRPERSON Have you any questions to put to this witness? MS THABETHE No Chairperson. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. Mr Botha, you spoke - let me just get this right, you were the first person to start shooting in this incident? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR LAX You didn't hear any shots before you started firing at the back left tyre? MR BOTHA When I started shooting there had already been a shooting, a fraction of a second. MR LAX Sorry, say that again please? MR BOTHA From the moment that I started shooting there was just a very, very short moment afterwards when I heard the next shots being fired. MR LAX The way I heard it translated was as if you shot immediately after, a fraction after, but in fact it was the other way around? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR LAX And you distinctly, the impression I gain from your evidence was that you distinctly saw the flashes of firearms on the right hand side? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR LAX And that's how you thought you were being fired at? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR LAX Now did you see any flashes on your left hand side? MR BOTHA No. CHAIRPERSON They may have been there but you paid no attention? MR BOTHA That is correct, my attention was focused on the vehicle. MR LAX The thrust of my question is this, is that if there had been shots on your left hand side, you were behind the vehicle at this stage, the kombi and the suspect vehicle were ahead of you? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR LAX If there had been any shots from your left hand side ahead of you, you would have seen those flashes, you would have noticed them, it was dark after all? MR BOTHA Yes it was dark and as I said there were also members of the public amongst us so it was a very difficult situation and after the first shots were fired you were then quite tense and things happened very quickly. MR LAX Yes, I'm talking about the likelihood of you seeing shots ahead of you on the left hand side? ADV BOSMAN I can't recall that I saw flashes. MR LAX You certainly didn't hear shots coming from that direction? MR BOTHA There were many shots being fired and it's not possible, not easy to determine whether a shot which was quite close to you comes from a particular direction. MR LAX Okay. Now just one other small aspect that Mr Visser dealt with in re-examination, he said to you that you associated yourself with the order. What order was that? MR VISSER Chairperson, if I may, please forgive me but I said even if there was an order which we don't say because there wasn't an order in fact given to shoot but it was suggested, Chairperson, that there was an illegal order given and I put it to him on the basis that even if there was such an order would you disobeyed such an illegal order, that's what I intended to state. MR LAX I was just puzzled because his direct evidence was that there was no decision taken at any stage that he was aware of to kill these people? MR VISSER That's precisely correct, that's our evidence but that is what was put by my learned friend to the witness. MR LAX Until the point that the vehicle came to a stop, you had no idea that anybody had died yet? MR BOTHA Due to the number of shots that I heard I thought that somebody might be seriously injured or killed. MR LAX If we just add up the number of shots found on the bodies and that obviously doesn't include shots that missed those bodies and the shots that missed the vehicle altogether, we're talking about - if you'll just bear with me a moment, I didn't do it earlier, 19, 29, 40 ...(intervention) MR VISSER My attorney added it, Chairperson, it's 10, 11 and 19 which add up to 50. 40? CHAIRPERSON 31 and 19 is 50. MR VISSER 50. Except that it's not clear whether all of them are actually bullet wounds, there may be other wounds that one can distinguish as ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Entry wounds and exit wounds. MR VISSER Well also there was bumping of the cars, Chairperson, there may have been injuries, we don't really know because we haven't heard the doctor but it apparently seems as if there might have been 15 bullet wounds. MR LAX Just from my reading of those post-mortems and again obviously subject to that, the doctor does distinguish between lacerations and gunshot wounds in that and shrapnel wounds and so on so let's at least we can say with a degree of certainty that at least 15 odd shots were fired? CHAIRPERSON What is the question? MR BOTHA It's possible. MR LAX And you say you heard - you're not sure how many shots you heard. Would that accord with what you heard, with your recollection of what you heard? MR BOTHA Yes there was quite an intense gun battle going on so I'm going along with that number of shots, yes it was an intense exchange of fire. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just help me, one tries to get as clear a picture as one can. You talked about intense shooting and I can't in my mind yet form a picture as to where the shooting came from apart from your car and the kombi. Now there were other police vehicles, they were behind you, they shot at this car from behind your car? MR BOTHA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And they never came alongside your car, those other police vehicles, while they were shooting at this car in front? Is that the picture or is it not a clear picture? MR BOTHA Chairperson, as I testified I shot from the left rear of the vehicle of the kombi, who moved past us on the right and there were shots fired and then there were also shots from the rear of our vehicle to the right hand side, shots came from that direction as well, that's what I can recall. CHAIRPERSON How many people were in that kombi, do you know? MR BOTHA It was three people. CHAIRPERSON How many of them were armed, do you know? MR BOTHA I'm assuming that they were all armed. CHAIRPERSON And I take it you don't know who was in the vehicle immediately behind your vehicle? MR BOTHA If I was to speculate I think it would have been the reaction unit's vehicle who were shooting from behind. CHAIRPERSON And they were all armed? MR BOTHA Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON One final question just to clear my mind, are you certain that there was never a decision that these people should be shot and killed beforehand? MR BOTHA Most definitely, there was no such a decision taken beforehand. ADV BOSMAN Mr Botha, when you were at kwaMashu Police Station, I seem to recall that you said that the purpose was that you planned preventative action? MR BOTHA Yes that is correct. ADV BOSMAN But what would the content of these plans be? What did the preventative action include? MR BOTHA It included to in respect of people whom we thought were on their way to attack certain targets, to arrest these people, to try and thereby prevent serious damage to property or loss of life. ADV BOSMAN Did you not discuss ways and means as to how you would prevent this and how you would stop these people. Surely you would have expected these people to be in possession of arms? Did you discuss the extent of the operation and how far you would have to go? MR BOTHA It's a very difficult situation, the problem was that if we could get the opportunity to arrest the people properly, but the problem was we didn't actually know which targets they had targeted so we didn't know where to arrest the people and we always had the fear that we would reveal the identity of our informers so what we did was to try and intercept people on the road when they left their homes. ADV BOSMAN Or is this said or implicitly or expressly that when this happened that shots had to be fired? MR BOTHA Yes, I mentioned in my statement, if I can perhaps just find the place, we discussed this amongst ourselves that if shots were fired at us we would have no choice but to fire back, we didn't realise that these were dangerous people and that we would have to deal with the situation as we found it. ADV BOSMAN On the evidence here it would seem to me as if it was an exercise "horribly gone wrong" that's the impression that I'm getting, am I right or wrong? MR BOTHA That is correct. ADV BOSMAN Now if one looks at it ex post facto, what would do you think what went wrong, what caused this operation to go so awry because now we know that the people were not in possession of weapons? MR BOTHA After I tried to stop the vehicle by shouting, "police, police" people tried to force me off the road twice and then there was a collision with the front kombi in an attempt to flee and thereafter I decided to halt the vehicle by shooting at the tyres and thereafter the spontaneous exchange of fire took place. ADV BOSMAN Perhaps it's not a fair question but what triggered the shooting in your opinion? You were there. MR BOTHA It was try and bring the vehicle to a halt so that we could arrest the people. ADV BOSMAN I'm assuming that a docket was opened in respect of this case? MR BOTHA There was an inquest docket, yes. ADV BOSMAN Do you know what happened to the vehicle in which these people were passengers? MR BOTHA I'm assuming that the vehicle was seized and what happened afterwards I'm not sure. ADV BOSMAN Did you ever read the docket, the inquest docket, do you have any knowledge of those proceedings? MR BOTHA Yes, I testified in the inquest. ADV BOSMAN Can you recall whether the vehicle had been inspected in respect of the number of gunshot wounds, had that been noted anywhere? MR BOTHA I can't recall. ADV BOSMAN I'm not a police officer but as a former State Prosecutor, public prosecutor, I would expect that there would have to be a definite record as to how the vehicle looked after the incident where all the bullet holes were on the sides or wherever. MR BOTHA Yes, I'm sure that or I believe that that would have been in the inquest docket. ADV BOSMAN You can't recall however that that was ever an issue? MR BOTHA In what respect? ADV BOSMAN The question as to whether the bullet holes or the bullets had entered from the top, the roof or from the sides or from the windows or wherever? MR BOTHA Yes, unfortunately I didn't have a look at this docket, I'm not familiar with it. ADV BOSMAN So you can't help us to determine from which directions these shots could have been fired. Then a last aspect, last question Mr Botha, Mr Webster put it to you and we all know that a feeling of remorse or regret whatever is not essential in an amnesty application. However, I do feel that you can appreciate the emotional quality of the amnesty application? MR BOTHA That is correct. ADV BOSMAN And I'm asking you is there nothing which you would like to say outside of the strict legal confines of the case? I see that you're looking at your legal representative, Mr Botha, it's not my intention to corner you, to make life difficult for you, I'm simply asking you whether there isn't perhaps a need on your part to say something to the family? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Mr Botha. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever find out who the occupants were, whether they were in fact members of the ANC or any organisation of that kind? Did you have any information at all about these people? MR BOTHA Chairperson yes, one person Brian Mamela according to Col Andy Taylor, he'd been a trained terrorist, MK terrorist. CHAIRPERSON That's all? MR BOTHA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Nothing about the others? MR BOTHA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. MR BOTHA Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED