amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-30 DURBAN 12 MR GREYLING https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53629&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9908100903_dbn_990830dn.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you Chairperson, I am going to call the next applicant which is going to be Mr Greyling and his application is found in the bundle on page 9. I've also placed before you, Chairperson and the Members and everybody else concerned certain documents which I've taken the liberty of marking. You'll find the first one is a document that's a summary of the evidence of Mr Greyling which is the "Aansoek om Amnestie vir die Aanranding op Pravine Gordhan". I have marked that Exhibit F. Chairperson, yours in front of you is those yellow pages. For some rhyme or reason my secretary was of the belief that yellow looks nice. There are four documents in front of you. CHAIRPERSON Four different, yes. MR NEL With regards to Mr Greyling there's two documents, one relating to the assault on Mr Gordhan and the second one relating to Mr Lalla which I've marked Mr Gordhan's Exhibit F. CHAIRPERSON The one that's headed "Application for Amnesty for the Assault on Mr Pravine Gordhan", that is F? MR NEL That is correct, Chairperson, that is in Afrikaans. CHAIRPERSON The translation of that is that. MR NEL There is only an Afrikaans translation of that, that is a summary of the incident. MR LAX I see it's Mr Duhr's one that's in English. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I was looking at Mr Duhr's one. Sorry, let's just get this straight here. I've got four, this is Duhr, Bothma, Greyling, so there's just the one document? MR NEL There's two documents for Greyling. CHAIRPERSON Two for Greyling. The first one relates to Mr Gordhan, that's F and the other one will be G, relating to Mr Lalla? MR NEL Correct, Chairperson, whilst we're at that point in junction we might as well mark the remaining two documents as well relating to Mr Duhr which will then be Exhibit H with regards to the assault on Mr Gordhan and then the document relating to the assault on Mr Gordhan for Bothma will be Exhibit J if I have it correct? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, do you have these documents? I think at this stage the important one to have are the two relating to Mr Greyling. MR GORDHAN ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Thabethe, could you kindly arrange for copies for Mr Lalla and Mr Gordhan please? Thank you. MR GREYLING (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NEL As it pleases the Chair. Chairperson, Mr Greyling will be testifying in Afrikaans and as I've indicated his amnesty application form is found on page 10 of the bundle in front of you. Mr Greyling, you have applied for amnesty for the assault of two persons namely firstly Mr Gordhan and secondly Mr Raymond Lalla, both of whom are present here today, is that correct? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR NEL If you look at your amnesty application which is embodied in the bundle from page 10 to page 14 to you confirm this application and confirm that it is signed by you and do you confirm this as correct? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR NEL You have also heard the evidence of the previous applicant, Colonel Botha, and do you confirm the correctness thereof insofar as it concerns you? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR NEL And before we go over to the incident itself you have also heard that certain documents had been served before this Committee which have been submitted previously namely Exhibits A, B AND C and during consultation with me you have studied these documents and do you confirm the correctness thereof insofar as it concerns you and do you also request for this to be incorporated in your amnesty application? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR NEL If I may refer you to Exhibit F which is before you, Mr Greyling, would you read from paragraph 1 and I ask you to read this slowly seeing as it is being interpreted by the interpreters. Would you being with paragraph 1 please? MR GREYLING Chairperson, during 1990 I was a member of the security branch stationed in Durban. I was a member of a group of investigators and at that stage we were involved in the investigation of the so-called Operation Vula. During ...(intervention) ADV BOSMAN I beg your pardon, Mr Greyling, just to complete the picture, what was your position in seniority with regard to that group? MR GREYLING Chairperson, I was a warrant officer during that period in time. Warrant Officer Basson and I were tasked to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla with regard to his involvement in Operation Vula. During the interrogation of one Pravine Gordhan, I assisted Lieutenant Colonel Hentie Botha in suffocating Mr Gordhan and so doing to attempt to persuade him to answer questions which were being put to him with regard to Operation Vula. MR NEL Mr Greyling we have heard that before Mr Botha went to Bethlehem you were also involved in interrogation, was this also with regard to Mr Gordhan? MR GORDHAN No, I was simply tasked to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla, Warrant Office Basson and I at that stage. MR NEL Please proceed with the case of the assault of Mr Pravine Gordhan? MR GREYLING During the assault Colonel Hentie Botha arrived at the Bethlehem office of the security branch. He put certain questions to Mr Gordhan that he was supposed to answer but Mr Gordhan did not assist him during that period and Colonel Botha requested me to help him with the assault of Mr Gordhan. After it appeared that Mr Gordhan did not intend to answer any of Mr Botha's questions, the assault on him was stopped. During the assault and at that stage I believed that my actions were aimed at protecting and maintaining the existing government of that time. I was not rewarded nor did I draw any advantage out of my participation in the assault of Gordhan. I request that my application for amnesty be favourably considered. MR NEL Mr Greyling, would you then continue immediately with Exhibit G which is basically the same with regard to your involvement in the assault of Mr Lalla and may I just ask you from the very beginning that during the compilation of this document, is it correct that you could not recall anything about the asthma pump incident? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR NEL Would you also agree with the evidence which Mr Botha gave insofar as it concerns you with regard to Mr Lalla? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR NEL And was the assault on Mr Lalla stopped as a result of the asthma attack or some form of attack that he experienced? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR NEL Is it also correct to say that you were not rewarded for your share in the assault on Mr Lalla? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR NEL And do you also further request that your amnesty application be favourably considered in this regard? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR NEL Chairperson, that will be the evidence of Mr Greyling. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nel. Mr Visser, do you have any questions you'd like to ask this applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Greyling, are you today capable of recalling precisely what the questions were which Mr Botha put to Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla or can you no longer recall? MR GREYLING Chairperson, I can recall clearly that Colonel Botha specifically asked Mr Gordhan to disclose the identity of the informer within the security branch. Mr Gordhan refused from the very beginning to assist Mr Botha in any way and insofar as it concerns Mr Raymond Lalla I can recall that he asked him questions with regard to a list of names as well as who fetched him at the Swaziland border during his infiltration into South Africa. MR VISSER From cross-examination of Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, it was disclosed here that you being the security police, if I may put it that way, already possessed all the necessary information that it had been published in newspapers and so forth with regard to the questions that you were busy asking him, that you attempted to get answers for, is that correct? MR GREYLING Chairperson, we were specifically tasked to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla. There were various aspects which Mr Lalla refused to provide any information about during that period in time. MR VISSER Information that you did not possess? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR VISSER And then finally, Mr Greyling, you state that your memory has failed you regarding the asthma pump. Today after your recollection has been refreshed, can you recall anything about an asthma pump? MR GREYLING That is correct, I can recall it. During the interrogation of Mr Raymond Lalla he had an asthma attack and Colonel Botha also asked me to go and look for an asthma pump as soon as possible. MR VISSER And is it also correct that there was a pharmacy in the same building where these two gentlemen were detained? MR GREYLING That may be so, I cannot recall specifically but I can recall that it wasn't very far from the police office. MR VISSER And did you then obtain such an asthma pump and return it? MR GREYLING Yes that is correct. MR VISSER Were you present to see whether Mr Lalla used the asthma pump? MR GREYLING I can recall something like that very vaguely, I know that after a period of time Mr Lalla was once again acting normally. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Gordhan? MR VISSER Sorry, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR VISSER Can you assist the Committee, according to your recollection how long did the assault of Mr Gordhan last and after that how long did the assault of Mr Lalla last, this suffocation process? MR GREYLING I can recall specifically that the suffocation process on Mr Lalla did not take place for very long seeing as he suffered an asthma attack and with regard to Mr Gordhan, it's difficult to tell you exactly how long it took seeing as this was approximately twelve years ago. MR VISSER What is your recollection? MR GREYLING I cannot say that it lasted for longer than ten to fifteen minutes because during that assault I was called out of an office and requested to go to the office where Mr Gordhan was tortured. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you weren't present the whole time that Mr Gordhan was being tortured? MR GREYLING Chairperson, I cannot respond to that because I was in an office with Warrant Officer Basson when Colonel Botha called me and there were no other persons who I saw at that stage because it was reasonably dark and that is when I was asked to assist with the suffocation. CHAIRPERSON And when you went into the office where Mr Gordhan was, was he already - had the procedure started, was he being suffocated? MR GREYLING After I had gone outside Mr Gordhan already lay on his back on the ground on the floor and there was a bag or something over his eyes and Colonel Botha simply asked me to hold his legs down while he was applying the suffocation technique. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to put to this applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN Just a few, Chairperson. Earlier, I think around paragraph 4 you said that Mr Botha put certain questions to me which I did not answer. You of course were not present in the earlier part of my interaction with Mr Botha so you actually wouldn't be aware whether he put questions and whether I actually answered them? MR GREYLING That's absolutely right, Mr Gordhan, I must have been confused, yourself with Mr Lalla at that stage. MR GORDHAN The second question, you operated as you say under the instruction of Mr Botha to do what you did? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR GORDHAN If you had a choice is it your inclination to assault detainees or are you one of the nice guys? MR GREYLING No Sir, if we wanted to assault yourself or Mr Lalla I think that we could have done it long before that, I think we were there for approximately three weeks already. MR GORDHAN That's right. In terms of the time you have already conceded you haven't been there at the beginning of the assault, it could be as long as fifteen minutes, it could have been as long as twenty minutes or twenty five minutes in all as well? MR GREYLING Chairperson, according to my recollection, it could not have been longer than 15 minutes. CHAIRPERSON That is the time that you were in the room with Mr Gordhan? MR GREYLING Yes that is correct. MR GORDHAN No, the question I'm putting to you Mr Greyling is that in all it could have been twenty, twenty five minutes because you weren't there all the time? MR GREYLING Chairperson, I cannot testify regarding things which took place and which I was not involved. I can only give evidence regarding that period of time during which I was present. ADV BOSMAN Very briefly, is it your evidence that you spent at the most fifteen minutes in the room itself? MR GREYLING Ten to fifteen minutes. ADV BOSMAN Very well, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gordhan, you may proceed. MR GORDHAN Again, Mr Greyling, I might not have understood you correctly, but you said that from the beginning the questions around the so-called hour have been put and from the beginning I refused to answer them, did I get you right? MR GREYLING Chairperson, as I have already said I was not present when Colonel Botha initially spoke to Mr Gordhan so I cannot respond in any way. CHAIRPERSON When you were present were any questions put by Mr Botha to Mr Gordhan in your presence? MR GREYLING That is correct, Colonel Botha repeatedly asked Mr Gordhan various questions. I can remember particularly with regard to the identity of The Owl, that Mr Gordhan flatly refused to provide any information with regard to The Owl. MR GORDHAN What other questions do you remember, Mr Greyling? MR GREYLING I can recall that he asked Mr Gordhan about certain aspects pertaining to his involvement with operation Vula but I cannot recall the specific detail attached to that. MR GORDHAN And you were present during your stay in that room, you were present when Mr Botha was swearing and hurling abuse and threatening me that I wouldn't see my family again and so on. You would of course recall that as well? MR GREYLING Chairperson, at that particular point it may have been but this was twelve years ago and I cannot recall particulars. It is impossible for me to recall something like that. MR GORDHAN It's only nine years ago, Mr Greyling, almost to the day. Last question, Chairperson. Do you have any regret about the fact that you participated in this assault and what's your approach to the reconciliation question? MR GREYLING Well, Chairperson, I think that that would be the reason why all of us are here. It is not only about telling the truth, it is also about the reconciliation process, that is what it is about, that is why we are here. MR LAX You haven't actually answered the issue of whether you regret your actions? MR GREYLING Yes Chairperson, I regret my share in this matter. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lalla, would you like to put any questions to the applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LALLA No, I think it's more for comment. I want to state that Mr Greyling, on the night that I was tortured, yes he did fetch a pump. Whether I suffered from asthma it's another story, but under doctor's advice from Mr Botha, he did fetch a pump and on the same night Mr Greyling was traumatised by the fact that he had tortured us and he had apologised and he was in a state. I just thought the Committee should be aware of this. Subsequently, after that I'm not sure for whatever reason, but he was removed from the interrogating team that was interrogating me. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lalla. MS THABETHE No questions Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel, do you have any re-examination? MR NEL I have none, thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Advocate Bosman do you have any questions? ADV BOSMAN Yes, thank you Chairperson. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. ADV BOSMAN ...(inaudible) Mr Chairperson, yours won't go off and mine keeps on going off. At the stage when Colonel Botha arrived there, had you already spent quite some time interrogating Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla? MR GREYLING Chairperson yes, we had spent approximately two weeks in Bethlehem but we had also gone to Pretoria where Mr Lalla assisted us with the identification of a stockpile in Pretoria. ADV BOSMAN Did you and Mr Botha have any discussion before he came in at the stage when they were assaulted and did you tell him that you were not obtaining any cooperation from them or at least from Mr Gordhan? MR GREYLING Chairperson, as I've said, initially we were deployed to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla and during that period Warrant Officer Basson received a telephone call from the Durban office requesting that he speak to Mr Gordhan for one day briefly because Mr Duhr and Mr Frans could not achieve any successful development or cooperation from Gordhan. I spoke to Mr Gordhan that he stated flatly that he would not provide any cooperation with us and that message was sent back as such to our office in Durban so they were well aware of the fact that Mr Gordhan was non-cooperative. ADV BOSMAN But you did not speak to Mr Botha personally, I just want to know if you spoke to him about this personally? MR GREYLING Not at all, at no stage did I contact Colonel Botha or speak to him before the assault took place. ADV BOSMAN Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. Do you bear any knowledge of Mr Lalla being sent for scans at Bloemfontein hospital? MR GREYLING Chairperson, after the time the reason why I returned to Durban was because I was supposed to get married a week and a half after the incident and that is why I withdrew from Bethlehem. MR LAX So do you think you've been married for twelve years now, Mr Greyling? MR GREYLING It feels like twenty years, Chairperson. Chairperson, I was informed by Warrant Officer Basson when I saw him again after the time that Mr Lalla had indeed been sent for treatment and he mentioned something about a brain scan in the Free State but I cannot recall precisely where or in which hospital this took place but that is what I was told. MR LAX Just one other short aspect Chairperson. You mentioned that Mr Botha asked Mr Gordhan during his interrogation about The Owl and he wouldn't cooperate about that. Now clearly you were quite upset at this whole process of interrogation according to what Mr Lalla has suggested in his comment and it had a fairly - was this an exceptional circumstance for you, this question of being involved in such torture? MR GREYLING Chairperson, by nature of Colonel Botha's visit we were informed that it was of the utmost importance to find out precisely who the informer in the security branch was. Warrant Officer Basson and I understood the seriousness of it and there was certain information which according to Colonel Botha had to be obtained in order to assist with the investigation with regard to Operation Vula so I must say that in my opinion it was of cardinal significance for us to know exactly who or what the identity of the informer was within the security branch. MR LAX If you will just bear with me one second, Chair, I just check some facts from another matter? ADV BOSMAN While Mr Lax is checking if I may just come in? Mr Greyling, I don't think that you really answered Mr Lax's question. His question was whether or not it was extraordinary for you to participate in such an assault? MR GREYLING Personally I felt that at that stage after the investigation it was extremely important if we examine all the facts that we had collected by that stage. I think that it was of extreme importance to us to know who this person was who was leading information out from the branch. ADV BOSMAN I will try once again to illustrate my problem to you. The question is not whether it was important for you to obtain the information. If I understand Mr Lax correctly, the question is whether or not it was extraordinary for you to participate in such an assault. In other words, did you actually regard this as a difficult circumstance under which to assault someone? MR GREYLING Chairperson, I did not regard this as something extreme. To me, as a policeman, as a police officer at that stage who was involved in the Vula investigation I was part of it and I regarded it as my duty to participate in the matter. At that stage I felt that it was my duty. CHAIRPERSON While we're waiting for Mr Lax, when did you first hear of The Owl? MR GREYLING We heard about The Owl for the first time during the assault, on the day of the assault, Chairperson. MR LAX Chair, I can't find the specific name but I'm going to ask the question in any event, I'm sorry to delay you. Who were you reporting to with regard to your enquiries into Operation Vula? MR GREYLING Chairperson, Warrant Officer Basson and I reported to Colonel Zen de Beer in Durban. I did not telephone personally but Warrant Officer Basson was the liaison person between me and our office in Durban. MR LAX So you were busy as part of this national investigative team put together by Zen de Beer under his control? MR GREYLING That is correct. MR LAX Sorry, I didn't catch that Mr Visser? MR VISSER Yes it was put together by Steyn who appointed Zen de Beer as the head of the national investigation unit, yes. Sorry, no, no, that was the evidence given by Steyn. MR LAX Yes, the evidence given by Steyn was that this team was appointed. MR VISSER By him. MR LAX I don't remember that directly but in any event it's not that relevant who appointed it, the fact is that there was this team under Zen de Beer and they were investigating Operation Vula. You see, where I'm a little bit puzzled is you weren't working under Botha at all? MR GREYLING Not at all. MR LAX Botha's earlier evidence is that he wasn't involved in that investigation, that Zen de Beer was, he had from time to time to assist them a little bit with little bits of information, that was his previous testimony. MR GREYLING Chairperson, I don't know, we simply reported to Colonel de Beer and what he did with the information I don't know. MR LAX You also weren't aware that there was no intention on the part of the State at that time to prosecute anybody for all the work you were doing? MR GREYLING I cannot agree with that, Chairperson, during our interrogation of Mr Raymond Lalla, we accompanied him to Pretoria where a stockpile was identified. Mr Lalla stood by his contention that he knew nothing of the map. We were told that the map was found in Mr Lalla's room but Mr Lalla agreed to point out the stockpile in Pretoria to us by means of the map. We had a special investigating officer who we appointed in Pretoria to assist us with the identification of the stockpile. Videos were taken as well as photographs of the process in order to give as evidence at the end of the day. MR LAX You see, you haven't heard that evidence but we have and the fact of the matter is that General Steyn knew and Major or Colonel Botha knew that there were to be no prosecutions arising from all your extensive work. MR GREYLING That is the first time that I hear of it. MR LAX That was a political decision taken at the times when De Beer was appointed to do this job but be that as it may I wanted to know whether you were aware of that? MR GREYLING No, we were not. During the interrogation of Mr Lalla it was exposed to us from the first time that there were negotiations among the senior security staff which to Warrant Officer Basson and me was upsetting regarding the fact that senior officers within the police or politicians were simply using the security police at that point for their own advantage. MR LAX Were you party at all to any of the observations on any of the houses or any of the arrests that took place. Were you party to any of that? MR GREYLING During the arrest of Siphiwe Nyanda I was present. There were not enough people in the office and they were looking for persons to assist with the arrest. MR LAX What time was he arrested? MR GREYLING I can't recall precisely, I think it was in the morning perhaps between 11 and 12, I cannot recall precisely. So it was late morning as far as you can recall? MR GREYLING Yes, as far as I can recall. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lax. MR LAX Any questions arising from questions that have been put by the Panel, Mr Visser? MR VISSER None Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel, sorry I should have asked you first. MR NEL No thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Gordhan? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN I just want to get here, Chairperson, Mr Greyling's attitude to assault quite clear. I was quite disturbed by your answer to Advocate Bosman. Are you saying that you - I understand that you were under instruction and I asked you that question but you seemed to say that you would have no problems in participating in assaults of your own accord, not under instruction? MR GREYLING Chairperson, I did this upon instruction. It was not the manner in which we would do it and I'm not trying to suggest that. At that stage even though the instruction was illegal I felt that it was expected of me as a policeman to execute this instruction. Personally, that would not be the way that I would work or the way that it should be, that would not be the moral way of doing this. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LALLA Mr Greyling, are you aware that I am presently the Head of Crime Intelligence? MR GREYLING Chairperson, I have been notified as such. MR LALLA I'm beginning to get a signal over here that there is some mischief making going on in terms of implications of saying one cooperated with one and the other cooperated with the other and the other helped in finding this arms cache. I'm going to put this question to you directly, were you aware where the map of the arms cache, where was it found? Were you there? MR GREYLING Chairperson, at no stage was I involved or present during the obtaining of the map of the stockpile. Mr Lalla told us from the beginning that he didn't know abut the map but the fact that we gave the map to him, he said that he would use the contents of the map and assist us in pointing out the stockpile, that he had no personal involvement with the map or with the stockpile. MR LALLA Mr Greyling, were you present right throughout the time when the location of this arms cache was found, were you there with me right throughout the time? MR GREYLING Yes I was present, it was in Pretoria. The video unit of the Pretoria unit was also there. MR LALLA Were you aware at that time, you all took me to Soshanguve, I had no idea where Pretoria was. It was my first visit to Pretoria. You had taken me to a point and you had said to me this is the road, this is how you go there and I was directed through the process of the policeman who was investigating that case to the location of the firearm. MR GREYLING That is correct. MR LALLA Thanks, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LALLA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Greyling, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I see that it's now quarter past one, this will be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment which we will take until 2 o'clock. MR GORDHAN Chairperson, just one thing. Only two other persons whose matters could be fairly brief and in view of the fact that they ...(indistinct) you don't have anything to follow up this matter, would it be an imposition upon you to say that let's conclude the other two and then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, you'll also be given an opportunity if you want to, to testify yourselves, you have that right. MR GORDHAN I also don't intend to. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR GORDHAN Well, in the interests of expediting this matter Chairperson, I'm saying that a little bit hunger might not be misplaced. CHAIRPERSON It's just that I personally have no problem with what you're putting, it's just that there are caterers and translators need a break, it's very difficult for them to continue but we can make it shorter, half an hour and start at quarter to two? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS