amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-30 DURBAN 12 MR DUHR https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53630&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9908100903_dbn_990830dn.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you Chairperson, I'm going to call the next applicant who is Mr Duhr. May I just ask your indulgence for one second? They were in the passage a short while ago and I've asked Mr Botha to just have a look where they are. CHAIRPERSON That will be Exhibit H? MR NEL That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, have you now got copies of these exhibits, that's the one by Mr Duhr. That's H, J is the one of Mr Bothma. MR DUHR (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NEL Mr Duhr, am I correct in saying that you are an amnesty applicant in terms of the Act for an assault which you have described in your amnesty application which is found on page 16 of the bundle and may I ask you to confirm your entire application which runs to page 19 except for where you have given your address as Panorama Park in Illovo Beach, you no longer reside there? MR DUHR Yes that is correct, Chairperson. MR NEL You confirm the correctness of the rest of your application? MR DUHR I do. MR NEL Mr Duhr, you've heard me ask this question for the previous applicant. I want to refer you to Exhibits A, B and C which serves before this Committee which was handed in as an exhibit on a previous occasion, you also like the previous applicant had the opportunity to peruse these documents. Do you confirm the contents thereof as far as your knowledge is concerned and do you ask that these also be incorporated as part of your amnesty application? MR DUHR Yes I do, Chairperson. MR NEL Also with regards to the evidence given by Mr Botha and Mr Greyling, do you confirm the evidence they have given insofar as the correctness thereof and as far as it concerns you? MR DUHR I do. MR NEL May I then immediately refer you to Exhibit H which is in front of you which is a summary of the incident and can I confirm that during 1990 you were stationed at Durban as a member of the security branch. Can you just tell this Committee what your rank at the time was? MR DUHR I was a lieutenant at the time, Chairperson. MR NEL Is it also then correct that you were part of a number of investigators who were at the time busy with interrogation inter alia of Mr Gordhan with regards to what as known then as Operation Vula? MR DUHR Yes that is correct. MR NEL Can you in your own words then briefly just tell us your involvement in the assault upon Mr Gordhan? MR DUHR Well, Chairperson, I see there is a summary here, maybe I should just go ahead and read the summary? MR NEL Please do. MR DUHR Thank you. "During this period of time I was part of a group that interrogated Mr Pravine Gordhan in Bethlehem. At one such interrogation session which was conducted by Colonel Hentie Botha, I was present in the office when Mr Gordhan was assaulted by being suffocated." MR NEL Am I correct in saying that you were not actually part of the assault itself but you were present and you were tasked to take notes if necessary? MR DUHR That is correct, Chairperson. If I can continue "After a short while when it became apparent that Mr Gordhan refused to answer any questions put to him, the interrogation and assault was ceased. I've stated my political objective in my amnesty application and request that it be taken into account by this Committee. I received no reward nor did I personally gain by my actions nor was I driven by malice or spite. I request that this Committee consider my amnesty application favourably." MR NEL Mr Duhr, it's correct that you were involved in questioning Mr Gordhan before the actual incident of the assault, is that correct? MR DUHR That is correct, I was tasked, myself and one of my colleagues, Inspector Bothma, at the time, we were tasked to question Mr Gordhan at Bethlehem. CHAIRPERSON When you say that you were tasked to question Mr Gordhan was that immediately on the same day or had you been in Bethlehem for some time? MR DUHR No, I'd been tasked shortly after his arrest, we were tasked by the then Lieutenant Colonel Botha to go ahead with the interrogation. CHAIRPERSON So who was tasked to deal with Mr Gordhan, yourself and anyone else? MR DUHR That would be myself and Inspector Frans Bothma, Chairperson. MR NEL Thank you Chairperson, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, do you have any questions you wish to ask? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Duhr, I'm not certain that I quite heard you, you were tasked to question whom? Mr Lalla or Mr Gordhan? MR DUHR That will be Mr Gordhan. MR VISSER Mr Gordhan. Now what was your experience of the attitude of Mr Gordhan during your questioning of him prior to the day of the assault? MR DUHR My experience was with Mr Gordhan that he was a reasonably calm person you know but at the same time uncooperative as far as certain questions were concerned pertaining to the Vula investigation. MR VISSER And on the day of the assault was that on that day also your impression that he wasn't going to cooperate? MR DUHR That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you at all remember what Botha questioned him about? MR DUHR I think one or two of the questions I can remember. Primarily the question obviously being as previously testified, the identity of The Owl, I think that was the primary question which was levelled to Mr Gordhan and there were one or two questions pertaining to the Vula investigation itself but that was secondary to that. MR VISSER Right and were you present from the time when Mr Botha commenced his questioning of Mr Gordhan to the end? MR DUHR I was present yes until the end. MR VISSER Can you give a guestimate of how long this whole process lasted? MR DUHR I would say in my opinion, it is a long time ago, in my opinion it was approximately 15 minutes, it was a reasonably short duration. MR LAX That estimate of yours, that fifteen minutes, is that the questioning prior to the assault or is it the whole process? MR DUHR That would be the whole process, Chairperson. The questioning prior to the assault was - well it didn't take long it was very brief. MR VISSER So in fact Botha very rapidly came to the conclusion to go over to more forceful methods after he had arrived there? MR DUHR That is correct, I would suggest that is a correct interpretation. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to ask? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN Mr Duhr, were you involved in any of the Vula arrests? MR DUHR No, I was not involved with the physical arrests although I was at one or two of the safe houses subsequently but with the physical arrests I was not involved, not to my memory. MR GORDHAN While you were in Bethlehem, whom did you report to in Durban? MR DUHR I reported to Colonel Zen de Beer at that time, we reported on a weekly or two weekly basis. We had to go back and give him a feedback, brief account of the previous weeks activities. MR GORDHAN You obviously didn't according to your version directly participate in the assault itself but you were witness to it? MR DUHR That is correct. MR GORDHAN If you had a choice in the matter would you have - or do you have an inclination generally, or during that time to assault detainees? MR GORDHAN Chairperson, I was with Mr Gordhan for about three months and I'd think he would bear with me that I didn't show any inclination towards assaulting detainees specific to him and generally speaking to any other detainee I was in the company of. MR GORDHAN There was an occasion subsequent to the assault when one of the police persons, uniformed police persons, was instructed it appears by you to ensure that I didn't sleep that night by every fifteen or twenty minutes coming into my cell, rattling the gate, opening the door, physically waking me up if I had fallen asleep. Do you recall that? MR DUHR I do not recall that but if you could maybe just refresh my memory what objective I had in mind at the time, I'm not too sure? I don't recall that - right through the night, it could have happened and it could be true but I don't recall that specific instruction, it could be ...(intervention) MR GORDHAN It could be true though. Okay, I don't want to dwell on it, it did happen. MR DUHR I accept that. MR GORDHAN Very generously the next morning of course you allowed me to sleep a couple of hours but you might recall that. Do you have any regrets about your role in the detention in the violence against detainees and what is your approach to the reconciliation question? MR DUHR I have regrets you know as to the whole process that was followed bearing in mind that you know, we're ignorant on the true national events at the time and in retrospect I think it was unnecessary what we went through and yes, I am in favour of reconciliation and true reconciliation between all the parties involved. MR GORDHAN Just one last question, Mr Duhr, you will recall that on several occasions I wrote letters to the then Minister of Law and Order. I'd like you to firstly confirm that, secondly what happens to those letters, do they actually get to the Minister of Law and Order? MR DUHR According to my understanding yes, I recall those letters you wrote and they do get to him because I can recollect, I think one was - there was a response to one or two of them, I think there was a response which did come back which he did remark on. I'm almost sure about that, maybe my colleague could help me on that extent later but I think you did receive a response. MR GORDHAN Well let me put it to you that there was no response and those letter, for your information Chairperson, were demanding my release reporting to the minister about my assault and constantly putting to him, that's Mr Vlok at that time, that he was holding me hostage as a political hostage in the sense that they, as a National Party government, were attempting to get leverage over the ANC that they were negotiating with. Just one question, Mr Duhr and that is you will confirm that on some occasion you had occasion to take me to a specialist physician who confirmed that I had hypertension, who explained to you what that hypertension meant and that I was put on treatment for that as a result of my stay there? MR DUHR Yes I can recall that you did go to a specialist, we did take you there and he did have a discussion of that, I just cannot recall the hypertension part of it but I accept that. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla, do you have any questions you would like to ask? MR LALLA No questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE No questions, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Nel? MR NEL Nothing Chairperson, just maybe if I maybe allowed to ask one question? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL Mr Duhr, is it correct that you are still presently in the South African Police Services? MR DUHR That is correct, Chairperson. MR NEL And what is your rank at present time? MR DUHR Presently I'm a superintendent. MR NEL Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions concerning that last bit of evidence that anyone would like to put to the witness? Advocate Bosman do you have any questions you'd like to ask? ADV BOSMAN I've no questions thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just one question, Mr Duhr, Mr Gordhan says that he wrote several letters to the then minister which letters concerned his detention, asked for release and made mention of the assault and now you said that those letters reached their destination. Would you have censored those letters? Would you have let a letter go through to the minister talking about assault? MR DUHR Would I have censored those letters? Those letters, I think he would have placed in an envelope addressed personally for the attention of the minister. Not? Okay, well if they opened letters the possibility exists that I could have read through them but the fact of the matter they're delivered to our Durban office or to the minister. As far as my part of the equation is concerned, it was fulfilled and I'm still reasonably sure that there was a response to one of those letters, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you're saying that any letter written by Mr Gordhan you forwarded on to your Durban offices? MR DUHR That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that is why you say that they reached their destination although you don't know what happened to them when they reached Durban? MR DUHR That is correct, I cannot testify on that. CHAIRPERSON Any questions arising out of questions that I have put? Thank you Mr Duhr, that concludes your testimony. MR DUHR Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR NEL You may be excused. WITNESS EXCUSED