amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-30 DURBAN 12 MR BOTHMA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53631&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9908100903_dbn_990830dn.htm MR NEL Chairperson, the last applicant is ...(inaudible) for your involvement and participation in the assault of Mr Pravine Gordhan and you set out your amnesty application in the bundle found on page 22 which runs through up to page 26, is that correct? MR BOTHMA (sworn states) That is correct. EXAMINATION BY MR NEL Mr Bothma, you are still in the Police Service today, is that correct? MR BOTHMA That is correct. MR NEL And your current rank? MR BOTHMA I'm a Superintendent. MR NEL During the assault of Mr Pravine Gordhan, what was your rank? MR BOTHMA I was a Warrant Officer, Chairperson. MR NEL And you were stationed at the security branch Durban? MR BOTHMA That is correct. MR NEL Firstly, do you confirm the correctness of your amnesty application as I have referred you to it in the bundle? MR BOTHMA Yes that is correct. MR NEL I have asked this question three times previously but it is necessary for the record. Exhibits A, B and C serves before this Committee which was handed up and deals with the general background to amnesty applications as well as Operation Vula. You have studied these documents and do you ask that these be incorporated in your evidence insofar as your knowledge goes and do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR BOTHMA Yes I do, Chairperson. MR NEL And you have heard the evidence of Lieutenant Colonel Hentie Botha as well as the previous applicants. Do you confirm the correctness of their versions of the events as it had taken place on the day of the assault? MR BOTHMA I do so, Chairperson. MR NEL If I refer you to Exhibit J will you please read to us from paragraph 1 where the circumstances are explained? MR BOTHMA During 1990 I was a member of the security branch stationed at Durban. I was part of a group investigators and at that stage we were involved with the investigation of the so-called Operation Vula. During the questioning of one Pravine Gordhan I assisted Lieutenant Colonel Hentie Botha to suffocate Mr Gordhan in order to persuade him to answer questions which were put to him with regard to Operation Vula. MR NEL What exactly do you mean that you assisted Mr Botha in suffocating him, what was your part in the assault? MR BOTHMA I helped in holding Mr Gordhan down on the ground. MR NEL Please continue? MR BOTHMA After it became clear that Mr Gordhan was not willing to answer any of Mr Botha's questions, the assault was ceased. During the assault and at that stage I believed that my actions were aimed at maintaining and protecting the then government. I was not rewarded and did not receive any benefit for my participation in the assault on Mr Gordhan. I request that my amnesty application be considered favourable. Thank you. MR NEL Thank you Chairperson, that is the evidence of Mr Bothma. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nel. Mr Visser, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Bothma, before this date of the assault were you involved in any interrogation of Mr Gordhan? MR BOTHMA No, I was not involved in any interrogation, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you recall on the day of the assault what the subject matter of the questioning was? MR BOTHMA The interrogation dealt with specifically the identity of the agent or double agent in the security branch known as The Owl and certain aspects with regard to Operation Vula. MR VISSER Were you present from the time Mr Botha started speaking to Mr Gordhan right up to the end after he was suffocated? MR BOTHMA That is correct, I was involved. MR VISSER Please give us an indication of your memory as to how long the process had taken from start to end? MR BOTHMA Approximately between ten and fifteen minutes. MR VISSER And you say in your evidence-in-chief that it seemed clear to you, are the words that you used, that Mr Gordhan was not willing to answer, is that correct? MR BOTHMA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you explain that, why was it so clear to you? How did you draw this inference? MR BOTHMA Mr Gordhan, since the start of his detention right from the start, he was not cooperative. MR VISSER How do you know that? MR BOTHMA We had to struggle to obtain his name and surname from him. MR VISSER So did you indeed take part in certain questionings of Mr Gordhan before the assault? MR BOTHMA Right from the start of the questioning right up to the end I was present. MR VISSER And he did not cooperate, is that what you say? MR BOTHMA No, not totally. MR VISSER And on the day of the assault was that once again the case? MR BOTHMA Mr Gordhan denied that he knew the identity of the mole or the informant within the security branch or that he had knowledge of the identity. MR VISSER Very well, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to ask? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN Yes Chairperson. Were you involved in any of the arrests of Vula detainees? MR BOTHMA No Chairperson, I wasn't involved. MR GORDHAN Did you have a direct reporting line to Durban yourself? MR BOTHMA No Chairperson, Mr Duhr did the report back. MR GORDHAN The issue of cooperation seems to plague our discussions here. Did you actually expect an ANC detainee to cooperate with the special branch official? MR BOTHMA Not really. MR GORDHAN From the moment that you and Mr Duhr stood up in that office, put the lights off, asked me to face the window, the hood goes on to my head, to the moment when the wrappings are finally taken off my body and the hood is removed, you will grant that trying to recall that nine years later it could well have been between twenty and thirty minutes as well, that whole duration? MR BOTHMA I doubt if it took that long, it might have felt that long for you, Sir. MR GORDHAN It could have been 25 minutes, 20 minutes? MR BOTHMA Possibly 20 minutes. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you proceed Mr Gordhan, if I could just intervene on this aspect. Mr Gordhan said that he was placed, he was in this room or cell whatever it was and made to look out the window and the hood was placed over his head. Where did that hood come from? MR BOTHMA I don't know, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did somebody have to go out the room to fetch it? MR BOTHMA That must have happened, it was not in the office where the interrogation took place. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember anybody going out or being asked to go out? MR BOTHMA No Chairperson, I cannot recall that anybody specifically went to fetch it. CHAIRPERSON And also it seemed from the evidence that Mr Gordhan was wrapped up in some sort of blanket or something, where did that come from? MR BOTHMA Chairperson, it could have come from the cells I suspect, I do speak under correction. CHAIRPERSON Did this interrogation take place in the cell or was it in a special interrogation room or other office? MR BOTHMA The questioning took place in an office of the security branch. CHAIRPERSON And then we've heard evidence also that some sort of bag, I think it's been referred to as a bag or a towel or some plastic was placed on Mr Gordhan's face actually suffocating him. Can you say what was actually placed on his face when he was being smothered? MR BOTHMA Chairperson, if I recall correctly it was a piece of plastic. CHAIRPERSON Like a plastic bag from a supermarket or what sort of plastic? MR BOTHMA A plastic rubber. CHAIRPERSON A thicker type of plastic, like a tube in a tyre? MR BOTHMA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know where that came from? MR BOTHMA No Chairperson, I don't know, it was also not in the office, it was brought there. CHAIRPERSON And do you know how long you've had to wait more or less for this stuff to be obtained? This hood and the plastic blanket? MR BOTHMA Chairperson, we did not wait for it. When we started, when Mr Gordhan was wrapped up in the blanket the rubber plastic was already there. CHAIRPERSON So what are you saying that when Mr Botha came into the room for the interrogation the stuff was available, this material? MR BOTHMA That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gordhan? MR GORDHAN Chairperson, just to amplify on that and Mr Bothma I'm sure will confirm that, that at least four pieces of equipment if you want to call it that were required. The blanket, the hood, the rubber/plastic, piece of material and a rope with string or some equivalent with which my body was tied and Mr Bothma will also I'm sure agree that there had to be an element of planning and premeditation in order that all of that would be available when the assault took place. MR BOTHMA Chairperson, I don't know that Mr Duhr or I or I do not know that we had beforehand received instruction or collected these items out of our own motivation. With Mr Botha's arrival there the things were there. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Gordhan's putting to you then, well just to follow on what he has putting, would you agree then that before the interrogation started, the interrogator must have expected at least the possibility of using that equipment before it started, otherwise why bring it? MR BOTHMA That is correct, Sir. MR GORDHAN So I would have imagined that the same piece of equipment would have been used on Mr Lalla? MR BOTHMA I was not present with Mr Lalla but I believed that they used the same things. MR GORDHAN What is your - you're a senior officer now in the South African Police, do you see yourself as being loyal to the current government and what is your approach to the question of regret and reconciliation? MR BOTHMA Chairperson, it's correct I am still in the police and I have the rank of superintendent. I feel sorry for what we had participated in and it took place during the circumstances of those times along with the influences which were upon us and seen in that light and I regret the fact that it had taken place and I agree with the reconciliation process which is ongoing in the country and I support it totally. MR GORDHAN Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla? MR LALLA ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Nel? MR NEL I have none, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Bosman any questions? ADV BOSMAN One question, thank you Chairperson. Mr Bothma, do you know why Mr Gordhan and Lalla had been detained in Bethlehem and not in Durban? MR BOTHMA I don't know exactly what the reason was for it, I believe with my personal opinion, I think it was to prevent them contacting them contacting their families or all the other detainees. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lax? MR LAX Just one thing, Chairperson. You've told us that this apparatus, these four items, were not in the room when this questioning commenced, there hadn't been in there at previous sessions, is that correct? MR BOTHMA That is correct. MR LAX Mr Gordhan, had he been questioned in that office before that in your presence? MR BOTHMA Yes he was questioned in that office in my presence. MR LAX And you don't know who brought those items into the room that day? MR BOTHMA No, Chairperson, I don't know if any of the other persons brought it there or who brought it there. MR LAX Was it not Colonel Botha? MR BOTHMA It is possible. MR LAX Because who else was in the room on that day? MR BOTHMA Myself, Lieutenant Duhr and Mr Gordhan. MR LAX So you have no recollection of who brought those items in? MR BOTHMA No, Chairperson. MR LAX I want you just to go back just for a moment. We understand that Mr Botha left the room at the point he decided to do something else, is that correct? At the point you ordered Mr Gordhan to turn around was Botha in the room or had he left the room? MR GORDHAN Chairperson, I wonder if I could help to clarify that the initial questioning period of what I referred to as three minutes was at least an hour or two before the assault actually took place so in a sense it was two separate events. If that ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON If you've heard what Mr Gordhan says, do you confirm that? MR BOTHMA I would agree with it, I cannot recollect it hundred percent but I can agree with it. MR LAX Sorry, I certainly didn't have that impression, that's a very helpful clarification if you like of the process of that day. So are you saying that Mr Gordhan was questioned, were you present when he was initially questioned by Mr Botha? That's prior to the torture? MR BOTHMA Yes, I was present. MR LAX Well tell us what happened then? MR BOTHMA During that interrogation, Sir? MR LAX During the initial interrogation, yes. MR BOTHMA Mr Botha came into the room, he asked very briefly certain questions to Mr Gordhan. He did not obviously receive satisfactory answers to it and he left. MR LAX And then what happened? MR BOTHMA After quite some time, I don't know exactly how long it was, I cannot say whether it was ten or fifteen minutes or even an hour, Mr Botha returned and then the interrogation continued with the blankets and the plastic. MR LAX You see Mr Gordhan is suggesting it was over two hours later. Well an hour to two hours, that's how he put it. MR BOTHMA I don't know, I would speculate. MR LAX But it was a reasonably long period of time? MR BOTHMA I really can't say, I don't know whether it was one hour or two hours, I cannot say that it could have been longer than an hour. MR LAX You see if you can't even remember that how can you remember how long the torture went on for, how can you be so sure that it wasn't more than fifteen minutes or maybe twenty minutes? MR BOTHMA I am certain of the time that the interrogation and torture lasted, it was brief and the questions were asked quickly and it was clear that we would not get any answers from Mr Gordhan. MR LAX You see the question I want to know is why are you able to remember that and yet you can't remember what the intervening period was? MR BOTHMA It's seven years ago, Sir. MR LAX Precisely, that's precisely the reason why I'm asking you. I know it was a long time ago and that's precisely why I'm asking you why you're so sure about one thing but not about another? I would expect that if you weren't sure about things you would be not sure about a whole lot of things? Do you see my point? CHAIRPERSON You see what Mr Lax is getting at Mr Bothma is you've said that as far as you're concerned the interrogation and torture process lasted ten to fifteen minutes, plus minus fifteen minutes, you gave a time and we got the impression that you were fairly confident about what you were saying. Now you've been asked, you've been told that there was a gap between the first interrogation involving Mr Botha and Mr Gordhan and then the torture and you've got no idea as to how long that period is between the first interrogation and the torture, you've got no idea at all. Now what Mr Lax is asking you is well, how can you then be so sure in your own mind that the torture lasted for plus minus fifteen minutes when you can't remember the intervening period, the length of the intervening period. MR BOTHMA The torture - the interrogation during the time when the blanket and all the other things were used, I was actively part of that, I recall it specifically although I'm not saying specifically that it was ten to fifteen minutes, it could not have been longer than that and the time period before, I cannot even recall what I did during that time. MR LAX You see, this goes back to the issue of how the items that were used for the torture were brought in and what preparations were made for that next phase of the interrogation and so on. You've no recollection of that, did you not participate in that? Is it that you did and you've just forgotten about it or you're not sure? MR BOTHMA I am not sure how the equipment that we used arrived there at the office, I don't know who brought it there, that is what I'm saying. I don't know. It is possible that Mr Botha had brought it in, it's possible that he sent somebody else to fetch it. ADV BOSMAN To exclude the possibility that you could have collected and fetched it? MR BOTHMA Definitely. MR LAX You don't know what happened to Mr Gordhan in that intervening time, was he left in the office, was he questioned further by you or other people in the meantime? Did you carry on questioning him? MR BOTHMA I can recall he remained in the office. MR LAX Was he blindfolded, was he handcuffed? MR BOTHMA No, he was not blindfolded and he was also not cuffed. He was only blindfolded during the second entry of Mr Botha. MR LAX So at the time - so we go back to the start of the second phase. You or Duhr tell him to face the window and at that stage he is then - the hood is put over his head or at least over his eyes, is that correct? MR BOTHMA That is correct. MR LAX Was Botha in the room already, did he enter the room while he wasn't looking, while Mr Gordhan wasn't looking? MR BOTHMA I don't know whether Mr Botha was in the office at that stage because the lights were switched off. MR LAX So the lights were switched off and he was made to look at the window and then the process started? MR BOTHMA That is correct. MR LAX Was that - what was the purpose of that, to hide the identity of the interrogator? MR BOTHMA No, I think it was to scare Mr Gordhan. MR LAX Thanks Chairperson, I'll leave it at that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You've said that the hood and the switching off of lights was in your view designed to scare Mr Gordhan. Did you hear any threats being made to Mr Gordhan? Threats and or any unkind statements like for instance "you won't see your family again"? MR BOTHMA Yes Chairperson, threats were made to him. MR LAX Can you confirm he was sworn at? MR BOTHMA It's possible, I cannot recall, it's possible. CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions arising from questions put by the Panel, Mr Nel? MR NEL None, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER No thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gordhan? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN Just a few Chairperson. Mr Bothma, the offices you occupied were the offices of the security branch in Bethlehem and I imagine covering parts of the Free State region? MR BOTHMA That is correct. MR GORDHAN The head of that office at that time was - I think he was a lieutenant then, Lieutenant Robert-Shaw? MR BOTHMA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What's that name Mr Gordhan? Robert? MR GORDHAN It's a hyphenated name, Chairperson, Robert-Shaw. S-H-A-W. Is it possible that Mr Robert-Shaw and his staff from Bethlehem might have given a helping hand to find the equipment? MR BOTHMA I would speculate if I answered, I don't know. MR GORDHAN And Chairperson, just to put some facts so that we clarify this a cession version, the first set of questioning that took place in respect of Mr Botha's role took place in absolutely bright daylight. It was very brief as I said and that has been confirmed. As it became dark both Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma walked in and out several times and they will concede that, they put their files away and so on. As it got darker it was towards twilight, I was then asked to stand my back to the door, my face to the window and the hood was placed over my head, not just the eye, I just want to confirm those facts? MR BOTHMA That is correct. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Gordhan. Mr Lalla, do you have any questions? MR LALLA ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, Mr Bothma, that concludes your evidence. You may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED