amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-25 PRETORIA 7 DEON GOUWS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53648&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99081631_pre_990825pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Does he need to be sworn in, Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY As it pleases you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Will you please rise and give us your full names for the record. DEON GOUWS (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Gouws, you before this Committee apply for amnesty for your participation in the Nelspruit incident, in which four persons were killed, is that correct? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY You have also applied for amnesty in other matters where you as a member of the South Police, had been involved in, is that correct? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY In the meantime, is it correct that you have received amnesty for some of these incidents for which you have applied? MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY On page 375, I don't know if your number is correct, you might have a numbering of another extract of a - an extract of another bundle of documents before you. I see your numbering is the same as mine, excuse me. On page 85 up to 89, was that an initial application which was drawn up by you before you obtained legal representation? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And this is dated the 9th of December 1996. MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY And after you had obtained legal representation, supplementary particulars were supplied and with regard to the Nelspruit incident - or rather, a brief background with regard to 1991 and 1992 and then from 1992 and further, up to page 98 or excuse me, up to page 97, the Nelspruit incident appears. Is that correct? MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY: To kick off, in the initial form on page 88, will you page to that please, at question 10(b) with regard to financial benefits, there you mention: "Reward for the Nelspruit incident". MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY Is it correct that you have drawn my attention to it that that was incorrect? MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY To which incident does that reward refer to? MR GOUWS The Carousel incident, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And then I would like to refer you to page 97 of the supplementary application. The supplementary part was drawn up in consultation with your legal representative, Mr Rossouw and at paragraph 10 you said "Not applicable". Did you then during consultation supply supplementary information so that that part could be filled in? MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct. MR LAMEY And that is why it is not applicable? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER The last page to which you have referred? MR LAMEY Page 97, next to 10(d), Chairperson. Very well. Mr Gouws, during 1992 you were attached to the Murder and Robber} Unit of Pretoria. MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY When did you become part of that unit, can you recall? MR GOUWS In approximately '86, Chairperson, 1986. MR LAMEY You were previously at the Security Branch Mamelodi. MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Up to when - up to what time were you in Mamelodi? MR GOUWS It was actually Security Branch Northern Transvaal. Before I went to Murder and Robbery I was involved there. MR LAMEY Until when did you work there? MR GOUWS From approximately '85 up to the time I went to Murder and Robbery. MR LAMEY Very well. And before that you were with the Special Investigative Unit in Pretoria. What type of investigative unit was this? MR GOUWS Unrest related matters nationwide. MR LAMEY And the Special Investigative Unit at Pretoria, was that a branching of the Security Branch? MR GOUWS We could see it as such, that it was a branching of the Security Branch. We closely worked together. MR LAMEY When were you there? ADV DE JAGER Excuse me Mr Lamey for interrupting you. Is there anywhere where we could get some fresh air into this building because if we cannot get fresh air in here, then I shall have to leave. CHAIRPERSON Please assist me in keeping my colleague here. MR LAMEY I don't know why the question is being put to me. ADV DE JAGER You don't share that hope, Mr Lamey. MR LAMEY I also share that sentiment, I am very hot as I sit here, I just don't know if I have a solution for it. Were you with this Special Investigative Unit before you became a member of Murder and Robbery or Security Branch Northern Transvaal? MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct. MR LAMEY May I just ask you, Mr Gouws, because of your connection with the Security Branch and despite your joining up with the Murder and Robbery Unit in Pretoria, did you ever as a policeman have a reasonable idea of the political struggle of the past with the parties, the ANC, the PAC on one side and the government/National Party on the other side? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY During this Nelspruit incident, what was your rank? MR GOUWS I was a Sergeant, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Who was your commander with Murder and Robbery? MR GOUWS At that stage, Capt Geldenhuys was the Acting-Chief. MR LAMEY Was he Acting-Chief of the Murder and Robbery Unit of Pretoria? MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY To arrive at the particulars - or before I arrive there, ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER He was acting Chief of Murder and Robbery in Pretoria, in Northern Transvaal, where exactly? MR GOUWS Pretoria, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Mr Gouws, when you were attached to the Security Police and afterwards at Murder and Robbery, did you know of the existence of Vlakplaas, under the command of Eugene de Kock? MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether at some stage with regard to yourself, do you know anything of a meeting where there was cooperation between Murder and Robbery and Vlakplaas? MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct, approximately 1991 - I'm not certain if it was in the middle or towards the end, we attended a briefing session, the Murder and Robbery Unit from Pretoria, at Vlakplaas, which was offered by Gen Krappies Engelbrecht. MR LAMEY And can you tell us briefly what your recollection is, what during that briefing session was touched upon. MR GOUWS At that stage it was a stage when Vlakplaas' activities went over to the criminal and Gen Engelbrecht informed us with regard to the armed struggle which was being fought by several activists. MR LAMEY Was there any mention of cooperation between amongst others, Murder and Robbery Unit and Vlakplaas? MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct, because mention was specifically made of robberies and we specialised in armed robberies. So the work would have overlapped at some stage. MR LAMEY Can you be specific with regard to the robberies? MR GOUWS Because of the ANC which would commit these armed robberies in order to obtain money for the ANC as well as the PAC, and then robbers who were being sought may be the same robbers that we were looking for. MR LAMEY You are saying in your statement - in your amnesty application statement you say during February 1992 you were contacted by Holtzhausen. MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Can you recall, did he contact you directly or along which channels did he go? MR GOUWS Chairperson, if I recall correctly he came to our office. MR LAMEY And from whom did you receive instructions? That's with regard to the first Coin robbery where you were also involved, is that correct? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY The incident which did not happen. Let us just place that on record beforehand. MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct. MR LAMEY Did you receive instructions to go along? MR GOUWS Yes, as well as Capt Geldenhuys. MR LAMEY And what did you understand, what was the information with regard to that action which would be launched? MR GOUWS Holtzhausen told me that they would rob a security office in Nelspruit and the people were political activists. MR LAMEY With what connection? MR GOUWS It would have been with the ANC or the PAC. MR LAMEY Can you specifically recall what Holtzhausen said, was it ANC or PAC? MR GOUWS No, I cannot recall the exact wording that he used. MR LAMEY Did you then indeed go to Nelspruit? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And can you recall names of any other members, whether they be from Vlakplaas or Murder and Robbery, who accompanied you? MR GOUWS I can recall Capt Gevers was present and there were members from the Nelspruit Murder and Robbery Unit present as well, whose names I cannot remember right now. MR LAMEY Where were these premises, or let me ask you in the following way. I accept you went to Nelspruit and you went to a certain premises, which premises were these? MR GOUWS The premises of Coin, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And what was the planning there, what did you have to do there? MR GOUWS We would enter the premises of Coin and if the robbers arrived there we would fire shots at them. MR LAMEY Did the suspected robbers arrive there? MR GOUWS Yes, they did arrive. MR LAMEY Do you know where? MR GOUWS They were right up close to the premises of Coin. According to my information, I think it was Springbok Security, one of their vehicles was in the vicinity. MR LAMEY And what happened then? MR GOUWS The robbers then withdrew. MR LAMEY Do you know who was the source of the information with regard to these suspected robbers? MR GOUWS It was Ben van Zyl, Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Excuse me, did you know it then or do you know it now? MR GOUWS No, I knew Ben van Zyl before the Coin incident because I started at Murder and Robbery in '86, so it must have been during '87, because at that stage he was at Brixton Murder and Robbery and the Murder and Robbery Units cooperated very closely. MR LAMEY Is it correct that in March 1992 you received a request which eventually came from W/O Holtzhausen? MR GOUWS That's correct, directly from Capt Geldenhuys. MR LAMEY So you received the request from Capt Geldenhuys? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And what was the request, the essence of it? MR GOUWS That we should go to Nelspruit. There were three members from Murder and Robbery. MR LAMEY Who was that? MR GOUWS It was Capt Geldenhuys, W/O Boshoff. Although I am not entirely certain of him, at some stage he was transferred to Vlakplaas. I don't know whether he was there. MR LAMEY Was he at Murder and Robbery Unit in Pretoria? MR GOUWS That's correct, and then myself. MR LAMEY So you are not certain whether he was attached to Valkplaas or to Murder and Robbery? MR GOUWS I'm not sure. MR LAMEY And what was the request, according to your understanding, from Capt Geldenhuys? MR GOUWS We should assist C10 with a planned robbery. MR LAMEY And did you at a stage depart? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY To Nelspruit? MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY Did you know at that stage whether this planned robbery was connected to the previous Coin incident? MR GOUWS No, I did not have any information to that effect, Chairperson. MR LAMEY When you departed did you depart alone or did you all drive in one car, or who went along? MR GOUWS Chairperson, I cannot recall exactly, I don't know whether it was Geldenhuys and I or Boshoff and I, because everybody had his own vehicle. It may be that all of us left in our own vehicles, I'm not certain. MR LAMEY Can you recall how long before the incident had taken place did you go to Nelspruit? MR GOUWS I think it was the previous day, during the course of the afternoon. MR LAMEY You arrived there in the afternoon? MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct. MR LAMEY Where did you go immediately after your arrival in Nelspruit? MR GOUWS I went to the Drumrock Hotel. MR LAMEY Can you recall who were all present, with your arrival or after your arrival? MR GOUWS Chairperson, in my application I have made a list and the names of the members who were there, and those names mean all the people who were involved in the incident. MR LAMEY You mention there Mr Klopper, Nortje, de Kock, Holtzhausen, Boshoff, Swart, Gevers, Chait and Hanekom. MR GOUWS That's correct, that's a list of names, but at some or other stage I saw these people at the scene, but whether I saw all of them at the Drumrock Hotel, I cannot recall, it was a long time ago and I cannot recall. I know I met Holtzhausen there, he handled the planning session there. I found Col Gene there. I don't know if it was in the foyer or where, but I definitely saw him there. MR LAMEY You have now mentioned the planning session, where did this take place and can you recall at what time of the day it had taken place? MR GOUWS Chairperson, according to my recollection rooms were reserved at the hotel. We were in one of the rooms where a part of the planning session was set out. MR LAMEY What came to your knowledge during the planning session? MR GOUWS Chairperson, that an ambush would take place. MR LAMEY When you say "ambush", what do you mean? MR GOUWS We would pretend to set up a roadblock, that would be the story afterwards, and we would set up an ambush. The kombi would come underneath the bridge, we would have fired on the kombi and then AK47s and handgrenades would be in the kombi. That's just briefly. MR LAMEY With regard to the suspected robbers themselves, did any further aspects come to your knowledge about that? MR GOUWS When Holtzhausen mentioned Ben van Zyl's name, I realised that it must be the same people who had earlier wanted to rob Coin in Nelspruit, that it was the same activists. MR LAMEY And by whom was that planning session led? MR GOUWS By Holtzhausen, Chairperson. MR LAMEY How did the evening further proceed, after the planning session? As far as you can recall, what was your task, what did you have to do? Let's break it down first. What was your task? MR GOUWS To sit up against the embankment. Although that was only when we arrived at the scene that this was explained. MR LAMEY Was certain detail given when you arrived the scene? MR GOUWS Yes, most of the detail had been sorted out when we arrived at the scene. MR LAMEY Maybe I should just take you back to after the planning session or the briefing session at the Drumrock Hotel. What happened afterwards? MR GOUWS Chairperson, not much, we just waited there for the incident to take place. MR LAMEY At what time did you go to the scene where it would happen? MR GOUWS I think it was approximately 12 o'clock, I'm not certain, I may incorrect. MR LAMEY You arrived at the scene, were any further detailed instructions given? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And what were your instructions? MR GOUWS I would sit along with Holtzhausen against an embankment in front and we would fire on the kombi first. MR LAMEY Was there a reason why you had to fire first? MR GOUWS No, I cannot think of a reason. MR LAMEY May I ask you in the following way, some of them said that Holtzhausen would give the signal. MR GOUWS Yes, he would fire first, that's correct. MR GOUWS Any other arms, were any other arms present except that which you would fire with? MR GOUWS There was an AK47. MR LAMEY What did you have to do with that? MR GOUWS When the kombi came to a stop I had to throw it into the kombi. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether Holtzhausen also had an AK47? MR GOUWS Yes, he had one, Chairperson. MR LAMEY You say that you arrived at the scene approximately 12 o'clock. MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY Did you wait there a while? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY How much time had lapsed? MR GOUWS It was a long time, more than two hours if I recall correctly. MR LAMEY More than two hours? MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY And what happened then? MR GOUWS There was radio contact between Holtzhausen and Willie Nortje and at a stage ...(intervention) MR LAMEY May I just ask you, was there any planning with regard to Ben van Zyl and the vehicle which he would drive in, that you can recall? MR GOUWS He would have driven with the BMW and we should not have fired at him. MR LAMEY Would he accompany the kombi? MR GOUWS Yes, he would. MR LAMEY So you waited there. I interrupted you and you mentioned something of a message. MR GOUWS Yes, a radio message that the people were on their way. MR LAMEY From whom did this message come? MR GOUWS It came from Willie Nortje, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Did you then ready yourself? MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY What ensued further? MR GOUWS The BMW passed under the bridge, just after that the kombi came past, Holtzhausen opened fire and directly after him I opened fire and when the kombi passed us - because the other persons were alongside, both sides of the road and I stopped shooting because as the kombi had moved people started moving in behind the kombi and I ceased fire because I might have fired on my own people. The kombi came to a stop at some stage ...(intervention) MR LAMEY May I just ask you, what is your recollection, who was also at the scene who shot? May I ask you who all fired? MR GOUWS It's difficult to say who fired. MR LAMEY No, let me ask you, who was at the scene when shots were fired? Was Capt Geldenhuys there? MR GOUWS Let me start from the beginning. Klopper was there, Nortje was not there, Col de Kock was there, Holtzhausen was there, Boshoff was there, Swart was there, Gevers, Chait and Hanekom were there. MR LAMEY Do you recall what time Eugene de Kock joined you? MR GOUWS If I am not mistaken it was a while before the shooting had started, but I have not certain. MR LAMEY Before we continue, did you hear anything with regard to petrol? MR GOUWS No. MR LAMEY Or handgrenades? MR GOUWS I did, along with the AKs I picked up some handgrenades. MR LAMEY What would the ideas be with the handgrenades? MR GOUWS So that the kombi could explode. MR LAMEY Who had the handgrenades? MR GOUWS Holtzhausen, Chairperson. MR LAMEY I have now interrupted you in the logical sequence of the questions. You fired on the kombi, other members fired at the kombi and when they moved into line you had to cease fire otherwise you would hit them. MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY And further? CHAIRPERSON You said the kombi stopped at some stage. MR GOUWS It came to a standstill, yes. MR LAMEY How many shots did you fire? MR GOUWS I emptied a magazine approximately, it would be more-or-less 30 R5 rounds. MR LAMEY And can you recall what happened to the occupants of that kombi? MR GOUWS Chairperson, at that stage I was some way behind in the road. I did hear some groans and at some stage I saw somebody hanging out on the left-hand side in front of the kombi. I don't know, but I think that was after the kombi had caught alight. MR LAMEY Did you see how the kombi caught fire? MR GOUWS No, all I did was I ran to the kombi so that I could throw the AK into the kombi and I withdrew. MR LAMEY Was the kombi already burning when you threw the handgrenade in or ...? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR GOUWS No, that was before that. MR LAMEY So you ran up to the kombi, you threw in the AK and you came back? MR GOUWS Yes, that's while Holtzhausen took the AK in his possession and fired shots to the outside, from the inside of the kombi. MR LAMEY Did you see that? MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY Did you see what was done with the handgrendes? MR GOUWS These were also thrown into the kombi by Holtzhausen. MR LAMEY You mention in your statement that at some stage petrol was sprinkled. MR GOUWS Yes, but I don't know who did this. MR LAMEY Is this something that you heard or is it something that you saw at the scene? MR GOUWS I saw the petrol containers, but I did not see who splashed petrol on the vehicle. MR LAMEY What ensued? MR GOUWS According to my recollection everything happened very quickly. The kombi was then set alight. Directly afterwards to explosions took place. MR LAMEY Do you have personal knowledge as to what happened further with regard to the persons who were not in the minibus? MR GOUWS No, I did not know, Chairperson. MR LAMEY You did not see anything at the scene with regard to that or what happened further. MR GOUWS Not at all, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Did you hear afterwards about it? MR GOUWS Yes, Chairperson, afterwards I heard that there was a fifth man. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but that will not assist us. MR LAMEY As it please you, Chairperson. You were requested at some stage to depose a statement in a post-mortem inquest. MR GOUWS That's correct. MR LAMEY On whose request was this, can you recall? Or how did it happen? MR GOUWS With any shooting incident one has to make a statement, but at some stage Gen Engelbrecht went through our statements and arranged a correction here and there and afterwards it was sent to head office. MR LAMEY Was the true version put in the post-mortem inquest, that it was an ambush, or were any other proposals made? MR GOUWS No, it was said a roadblock and it was said that the occupants fired upon us and we returned fire in order to protect our own lives. MR LAMEY Now with reference to the political objective, I just want to refer you to page 97. Do you confirm this as you understood it at that time? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR LAMEY There's just another aspect that I want to question you about. Nevermind, I will leave it at that. With regard to the order and approval, you received your order directly from Capt Geldenhuys. MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY With regard to the order and approval, you received your order directly from Capt Geldenhuys. MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY I would just like to ask you at this point, how would you describe it, was this - or by who would you say was this action initiated? MR GOUWS By C10. MR LAMEY And according to your knowledge, who was the commander of C10 at that stage? MR GOUWS Well it was Col de Kock, but I would not say that he issued orders at the scene, although he was in command of Vlakplaas at that stage. MR LAMEY Very well. Who issued orders at the scene? MR GOUWS It was between Geldenhuys and Holtzhausen. MR LAMEY And the orders which were issued by Holtzhausen, from whom did you accept that these orders came? Holtzhausen was another member of C10. MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. Well he must have obtained permission from Mr de Kock, it was his operation, so he must have had his own orders. CHAIRPERSON You're speculating, you did not have direct knowledge? MR GOUWS No. CHAIRPERSON Then don't speculate, just tell us what you know, the other things won't help us whatsoever. MR LAMEY What I want to ask you is whether you did indeed know that Holtzhausen was a subordinate to Mr de Kock. MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. That is the evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lamey. MR LAMEY Would this be an appropriate time for the adjournment? CHAIRPERSON Yes, it would. We have come to the end of the day, we will adjourn now and reconvene tomorrow morning here at nine thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS