amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-27 PRETORIA 9 BEN BURGER VAN ZYL https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53652&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99081631_pre_990827pt.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr van Zyl, would you switch on your microphone please, and give your full names for the record. BEN BURGER VAN ZYL (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Lamey? EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr van Zyl, you have applied for amnesty before this panel for your involvement in the Nelspruit incident during which four persons were killed and including later, Tiso Leballo, is that correct? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY You have also initially applied for the Carousel incident, is that correct? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY However, upon further consideration you elected to abandon this application? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY On page 206 of the Bundle before the panel up to and including page 224, your amnesty application appears? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Therein you deal with both the incidents, however they have been mentioned chronologically in your amnesty application? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY This application was signed by you on the 10th of May 1997? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY The application was compiled after consultation and you assisted with that with a previous legal representative? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Do you say that what appears in your statement has been stated according to the best of your recollection and is according to the best of your recollection a true version? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY In paragraph 7 you state or refer to the National Party, were you a member or a supporter of the National Party? MR VAN ZYL I was only a supporter. MR LAMEY At the stage when the Nelspruit incident took place, you had a business, is that correct? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY What was the name of this business? MR VAN ZYL Panakai Investigations. MR LAMEY Very well. Were you before 1992, a member of the Police Force? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Where were you? MR VAN ZYL During the last few years with the police, I was stationed with Brixton Murder and Robbery. MR LAMEY I refer you to the period of 1986 to 1989? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Could you tell us whether you resigned immediately after that? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY And immediately after your resignation, what did you do? MR VAN ZYL I joined Slang van Zyl in a business called Incom Investigations. MR LAMEY Mr van Zyl, had he also been a member of Murder and Robbery at Brixton? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Do you know whether at that stage, he had any other connections? MR VAN ZYL Later I determined that he had connections with the CCB. MR LAMEY How long were you in business with him? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, I am speaking under correction, it was approximately a year. MR LAMEY This business of yours is it a Close Corporation? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY When did you begin with your own business? MR VAN ZYL That was during 1990 or 1991, I cannot recall the precise date. MR LAMEY Could you tell us what your business involved? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, basically we investigated criminal and civil matters, we planted tapping devices and also looked for tapping devices in certain places, the English word for that is debugging, we also investigated marital cases and I had an informer network which channelled information to me which we then sent through to the various Security Branches. CHAIRPERSON Would that be for payment? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY When you were with Murder and Robbery in Brixton, did you have any experience in detective work or investigations? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Did you also handle informers then? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY During your service as a policeman with Murder and Robbery, you were never a member of the Security Branch? MR VAN ZYL No. MR LAMEY In terms of your work at Murder and Robbery, did you undertake investigations in terms of crime, specifically murder, in which for example persons had been killed who had been connected with terrorism? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY And then could we call this politically related crime? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you investigate politically related crimes at Murder and Robbery? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, there were many such instances in Alexandra, the black township. CHAIRPERSON Are you referring to murders? MR VAN ZYL Yes. CHAIRPERSON That you investigated? MR VAN ZYL Later, there was a specific division which was opened only for that, with which I was not involved, but some of our people from Brixton were transferred to that division. CHAIRPERSON And what cases did they investigate? MR VAN ZYL Murder and then other offences as well. CHAIRPERSON Such as necklace murders? MR VAN ZYL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY Were there also cases of robbery which were investigated which were politically related? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY So as such Murder and Robbery was criminally oriented, but it was about the crime such as the murder or the robbery, regardless of who had been involved in it, regardless of whether there was a political opponent or a political person belonging to certain political institutions or liberation movements? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. Wherever a suspect was not known in a murder, Brixton would investigate the matter. MR LAMEY That would then be court oriented investigations in order to prosecute people? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY During your time as a policeman with Murder and Robbery and then after your resignation, did you know what the political struggle was about, did you have any ideas about it? MR VAN ZYL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Would that be professionally or as a citizen? MR VAN ZYL As a citizen and there were also many reports in the newspaper and I also had exposure from fellow workers. MR LAMEY On which side of the political spectrum did you find yourself, what were your sentiments towards the liberation movements, the ANC, the PAC and so forth? MR VAN ZYL I wasn't very well disposed towards them, naturally in later years, this changed and now it all makes sense especially with regard to the propaganda which was sold to us. MR LAMEY And if it made sense to you in later years, which period of your life are you referring to? MR VAN ZYL 1994, 1995, very interesting things were communicated via Max du Preez' programme on the SABC. MR LAMEY What was your impression of the political situation in and around 1991, 1992? MR VAN ZYL According to me we were still involved in a war against the various political parties who were fighting against our regime of that time. MR LAMEY During your service at Murder and Robbery and or thereafter, did you know of a Unit known as Vlakplaas? MR VAN ZYL Yes. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon, at which point was this? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, it was only with the case of the four AK47s and the woman in Hillbrow that I met persons in a work environment from C10, I had been introduced to Mr de Kock at a social function, where I basically shook hands with him, but C10 was well known in police circles. CHAIRPERSON So they were known in police circles, but you only made real contact with them when you began your own business, your own detective business? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Lamey. MR LAMEY What did you know about Vlakplaas and C10 when you were still a member of the Police Force? MR VAN ZYL I knew that they dealt specifically with urban terror, internal security. MR LAMEY Did you know that they were a Unit within the Security Branch of the South African Police? MR VAN ZYL Yes. MR LAMEY A special Unit? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Very well. If we can deal more with the general activities of your business, when you established the business, Panakai, you had persons in your service who also provided information to you? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Who reported to you? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY You refer to this on page 208. Your purpose was to collect information and then to convey this to branches of the South African Police about drugs, weapons, unlawful activities, dealings with gold, diamonds, rhinoceros horns and then also robberies? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Mr Lamey, he has confirmed this application and he has said that he stands by it, so if there are any additional matters to the application, it is not necessary for us to deal with every single word that is stated in the application, you can just supplement where you feel it is necessary. MR LAMEY As it pleases you. May I just ask you, this information which you had, did you sell it at a price, and what I mean by that is, would you tell the police, I have information, I want a certain amount for it, this is the value that I attach to it and then you would tell them your price and sell it? MR VAN ZYL No Chairperson, I did not have any influence over the amounts which were paid out. I did however expect a reward, seeing as I regarded it as a service that I had rendered. MR LAMEY How did it operate? May I ask you, I would just like to lead you about it, just to expedite matters unless there is an objection. Was it basically as Mr Holtzhausen stated, you would not give any input, you would just come forward with information, you had a specific contact person within a Unit who was your handler and when there was any talk of a reward, he would make a submission and you never really knew what the amount would be that you would receive? MR VAN ZYL That is entirely correct. MR LAMEY It would be judged according to value by the handler? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Can you just tell us when officially did you meet C10 and when was this and when did it take place? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, it was during 1991. We received information from a black lady who was dealing in AK47 guns. The transaction was set up with the woman, consequently I contacted Eikenhof Firearm Unit upon which they most probably would have informed C10, because Dougie Holtzhausen and one Mr Stolz arrived on the day for the action. Later it occurred that the woman arrived with four AK47 guns. I introduced her to these persons and an arrest ensued. MR LAMEY And how was it that you were recruited as a source or an informer for C10? MR VAN ZYL A few days later I was contacted by Mr Holtzhausen to arrange for a meeting at the Johannesburg Sun Hotel during which Mr de Kock was also present. Upon that I was paid out an amount of money for the AK47s as a reward and at that stage, Mr de Kock requested me whether I would be interested in working on a more regular basis with them in providing information upon which I agreed. MR LAMEY From whom did you receive the reward? MR VAN ZYL I think the first reward and I am speaking under correction, but I think it came directly from Mr de Kock. MR LAMEY Very well. MR VAN ZYL Mr de Kock also asked me at that stage whether I would be interested in becoming an informer for them and then Sgt Dougie Holtzhausen would be my handler. MR LAMEY Just to create an image of how you operated, how did you go about collecting the information, how did you present yourself and what was your external persona in order to create credibility? MR VAN ZYL I presented myself as someone from the underworld. I don't know, many persons would want to know how a criminal would look, but I know that my appearance was not neat, I had long hair and so forth, and then naturally I would try to move in and around these sorts of people, I would visit certain places where there were criminal elements such as bad hotels in the Johannesburg district and so contact was usually made. MR LAMEY Did you do this under a false name? MR VAN ZYL Definitely. MR LAMEY Did you consistently use the same false name or did it change? MR VAN ZYL It would change. MR LAMEY Very well. What sort of informer did you become for C10, were you a full-time informer or how did it work? MR VAN ZYL I did not receive a monthly salary as a full-time informer would, a full-time informer would receive a full-time salary per month whether there was information or not, I would only receive a reward if I provided information which led to an arrest or a successful action. MR LAMEY At the stage when you became an informer for C10 on a more regular basis, what was your impression of C10, did they only show an interest in purely criminal information or what was your regard of their role in terms of their security role, their political security role? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, I was aware that they were still busy with counter-insurgency, that they were still working with that, they focused on unlawful weapons coming in over the borders and then they also dealt with the criminal aspect. MR LAMEY Would you have wanted, except for the income that you would receive, did you associate yourself with their action from a security perspective, at that stage? MR VAN ZYL Yes, I did. MR LAMEY Would you from your perspective, wanted to assist them with information so that they could achieve the objectives that they set out to achieve? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And this is without any payment? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, there were many such cases during which I did not receive any remuneration, and this wasn't a problem for me. I am still involved in crime investigation. CHAIRPERSON You did not receive any reward, but you expected it because you told us that you rendered a service? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So you expected some form of reward for it because you were a businessman? MR VAN ZYL That is correct, but sometimes it would happen that I did not receive payment and that was not a problem for me. CHAIRPERSON Did you not go to your Attorneys to sue the State or anything like that? MR VAN ZYL No. ADV DE JAGER In conjunction with this, the information that you provided, you expected to get a reward for this? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. ADV DE JAGER The information which you provided in this case, you also expected to get a reward for? MR VAN ZYL Yes Chairperson, with regard to this particular case, I worked for four months and there was a lot of time and energy and expenses which I invested in this investigation. ADV DE JAGER So your motive with everything here was to work to receive a reward and you were also working because you had political intentions to act against the members of another political party? MR VAN ZYL Money was one of the motives, yes, that is true. ADV DE JAGER Well, then I think that over this weekend, you should talk to your legal representative and see where you stand with regard to the Act for amnesty. MR VAN ZYL Chairperson ... MR LAMEY Chairperson, I can address you on that point right now, it was thoroughly considered. May I refer you ... ADV DE JAGER No, you don't have to argue this now, you can consult about this over the weekend and we can see how far we can get now with the evidence. MR LAMEY Chairperson, I do not wish to waste the time of the Committee. If it is a problem, may I just present the basis upon which we argue that Mr van Zyl qualifies for amnesty in terms of the law. CHAIRPERSON Won't you please place your entire case before us, because we are almost at the end of the day. You don't have to argue now, the case has been placed before us, we will hear it. MR LAMEY As it pleases you. Very well, let us continue. Let us deal with the Nelspruit incident, you had an informer by the name of Hamilton, is that correct? MR VAN ZYL Yes, Hamilton was one of my permanent staff members who also provided information. MR LAMEY Is that Langa Ndimande, what was his name? MR VAN ZYL Yes, he also operated under the name Langa Ndimande. MR LAMEY At a certain stage you met Tiso Leballo, is that correct? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Can you briefly tell us how you met him? MR VAN ZYL Hamilton approached me and alleged that there was a person who had cocaine to sell. The usual procedure was to establish a meeting during which I would meet with the person. I stand under correction, but I think that it was the third or the fourth meeting during which he handed the cocaine to me. With our first meeting, we just spoke generally about criminal activities, our backgrounds and each one played his role there. MR LAMEY Do you know whether Hamilton had political connotations and what they were? MR VAN ZYL Yes, I do know. MR LAMEY What were his connotations? MR VAN ZYL He was a trained PAC member, and specifically he was an anti-aircraft gunner who had received training in Zimbabwe. CHAIRPERSON Was he also a returnee, one who had returned, whatever the term may be? MR VAN ZYL He was illegally in the country, according to me. CHAIRPERSON And he worked for you on a full-time basis? MR VAN ZYL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did he work for payment for information that he provided? MR VAN ZYL No, he was permanently appointed on a salary basis and he then had informers below him who he handled. CHAIRPERSON But was he supposed to provide information for you, as a payment? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that was one of his tasks. Let me just reconfirm that the company did not only provide information to the police, we also had our own civil investigations for companies. CHAIRPERSON So did he assist you with these investigations as well? MR VAN ZYL Yes. CHAIRPERSON But he also gathered information as part of his duties for his salary, for his money that he made? MR VAN ZYL Yes. Whether he had brought in five or ten matters, he still received his regular salary package. CHAIRPERSON So he was somewhat like a permanent informer with the police? MR VAN ZYL Yes. CHAIRPERSON But the principle was the same? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lamey. MR LAMEY Very well. Do you know whether Hamilton had contact with the ANC, with ANC members? MR VAN ZYL Yes, he did. MR LAMEY Very well. I just want to bring you back to the meeting with Tiso. Did Hamilton tell you that he knew someone who wanted to sell cocaine to him? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY What else did you do about it? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, this is Hamilton and myself, we met Tiso at the Carlton Shopping Centre in Johannesburg, I think it was at the Wimpy where I then was introduced to Tiso as John, that was my false name at that stage. We discussed various offences in which I basically reconnoitred the field in order to see what he was involved in. I would just like to mention the offences specifically. MR LAMEY Yes. MR VAN ZYL It would be stolen cars, armed robberies, smuggling in arms, smuggling with drugs, counterfeit money. MR LAMEY So you put out feelers for various forms of crime? MR VAN ZYL That is correct ... (no interpretation) MR LAMEY Did he show any interest? MR VAN ZYL Yes, he was interested. On the second occasion if I have it correctly, he was interested in the armed robbery. With our first meeting his words to me were that he was looking for something with which he could make money and he needed money urgently. MR LAMEY At that stage, did you know whether he had any further political affiliations or when did you find out? MR VAN ZYL Upon our very first meeting, he informed me that he had just returned from exile and that he was with the ANC. I don't think that it was upon the first occasion that he made it known to me that he was operating from Shell House, I only established that later, but he was quite open about this information. MR LAMEY Did he mention anything about training? MR VAN ZYL He did say that he was a trained MK member. MR LAMEY At that early stage, had you already communicated this information to Holtzhausen? MR VAN ZYL I would have. MR LAMEY Did you receive instructions from Holtzhausen to go ahead? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, yes. Dougie Holtzhausen's attitude was simply to keep working on the subject, which we did. MR LAMEY Very well. Was there any other work, did you use Hamilton? How did it operate, did you arrange further contact yourself, what happened? MR VAN ZYL Most or all of the meetings were usually set up by Hamilton and naturally the more we met each other, the easier Tiso felt in my company. He was also impressed with the fact that I could speak the language of the underworld. I knew how much would be paid for a stolen vehicle, I knew how much would be paid for an AK47, I could talk along about cross-border weapons. MR LAMEY Cross-border weapons, was that ever mentioned between you and Tiso at any stage? MR VAN ZYL Yes, he stated specifically and gave me information with regard to weapons which were re-entering the country in empty petrol tanks. MR LAMEY And did you at any stage hear anything from him regarding stolen vehicles? MR VAN ZYL Yes Chairperson. MR LAMEY Could you elaborate on that? MR VAN ZYL He told me that most stolen vehicles would be exchanged on the other side of the border, specifically in Mozambique for the purchase of AK47s. I just want to return to my previous answer with regard to the petrol tanks, I just want there to be an understanding that we are not referring to the petrol tank of a car, but these large petrol tankers which transport fuel over the border and when they were empty, they would be filled with AK47s. MR LAMEY The question of the cocaine and the drugs, how did this happen? Initially you were introduced to him about this, what happened with that? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, I think it was on the second or third meeting that Tiso handed over some powder to me which allegedly according to him, was the cocaine regarding which the initial appointment was set up. I tested the powder at a certain stage and found it to be regular baby powder and when I gave it back to Tiso, he said that other people also said so with reference to the fact that it was baby powder. MR LAMEY Tiso told you that he was interested in the sort of crimes which generated money? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY And various forms thereof? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY And from your experience at that time of crime and the underworld, did criminals or the sophisticated criminal, specialise in the generation of money, would they specialise in various areas? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, a criminal would focus on his specific field and naturally it would be that offences were committed in the execution of a robbery, because then a vehicle would necessarily be stolen, however it is my experience that a car hijacker would not become a bank robber. A car thief would not necessarily commit the usual shop robbery. MR LAMEY Very well. Did Tiso return to you with regard to the possibility that you spoke of concerning the robbery? MR VAN ZYL Yes, with our meeting, when I discussed the field of robbery with him, I told him that I was also becoming involved in robberies in the sense that I would often convey information about places to rob. The discussion in that regard was usually to the extent that the subsequent statement so such a person would be "I first want to see how you commit a robbery, can you do it, are you tough enough" and that would usually be how we would obtain the information about where the prospective robbery would take place and then we would convey that information to the police. Specifically with Tiso, I did the same and told him that I knew about a security company in Nelspruit that I wanted to rob, but that I needed experienced people for this. MR LAMEY Did you mention the name of the security company to him? MR VAN ZYL No, not at that stage. MR LAMEY Later? MR VAN ZYL Yes, later. MR LAMEY Why was it important for you to mention that you needed able persons to do it? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, these were the people whom we concentrated upon and I did not want an innocent person involved in this and if they spoke the same language as we could, then I would know because there are certain questions which I would put to him to find out whether he was just boasting or whether he indeed had proper exposure. MR LAMEY In the Bundle there is a note, on page 377, have you seen that before? MR VAN ZYL I have Chairperson. MR LAMEY By whom was it drawn up? MR VAN ZYL It was drawn up by Hamilton Ndimande. MR LAMEY Reference is made there that Tiso had made a request and reference is made to Mr BB, who is that? MR VAN ZYL That is I. MR LAMEY This note was drawn up in December 1991, it appears. MR VAN ZYL Specifically the 9th of December, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Here, with reference to that note, can you please say what was of import there? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, as I have said earlier, this was the instance where we met Tiso again with regard to the results of the supposed cocaine and I saw that Hamilton made a note that Tiso wanted to know what was going on with the Nelspruit incident and that I would inform him that I was waiting for him and his people. MR LAMEY What did Tiso tell you? MR VAN ZYL: "... Tiso however said that he would need tools for the job, as he does not have any tools at the moment." MR LAMEY What do you refer to as the tools? MR VAN ZYL The tools refer to firearms. MR LAMEY Please continue. MR VAN ZYL: "... We then asked Mr Tiso whether he had pulled any job before, but he said that he had not. Neither of his men had done any job before." MR LAMEY Please continue. MR VAN ZYL: "... Mr BB informed him that he needs experienced people as this is a place that needs such people. Next meeting was not arranged, follow up is continuing." MR LAMEY Now with regard to the question which you put to him whether he had had beforehand, this comes down to robbery, has he pulled any job? MR VAN ZYL That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY And did he say no? He said no and none of his people had ever done any of this kind of work? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY At which stage with regard to the meeting with Tiso, was this? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, it was the third or fourth meeting, we were still building that relationship. MR LAMEY Did he later tell you anything else with regard to, that he had previously been involved in these things? MR VAN ZYL He did Chairperson. MR LAMEY And the people whom he referred to? I would just like to ask you, Chairperson, there is a document which we have obtained ourselves, which does not form part of the Bundle, it is a Bundle which I understand was handed out to everybody, it is in regard to a note from Hamilton Ndimande, I don't know if you have it. Can we find it and then give it an Exhibit number, it was dated the 18th of February 1992. ADV DE JAGER That document was here on the first day and from that time, we could not surmise what was going on, because nobody told us what it was about. MR LAMEY The front page of the document says Annexure D. CHAIRPERSON Is it marked? MR LAMEY No, it is not marked as an Exhibit yet. CHAIRPERSON Would that be L? MR LAMEY As it pleases you Chairperson. Could you please explain to us, is this also a note which was drawn up by Hamilton? MR VAN ZYL That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY From the first paragraph it would seem that Hamilton had an appointment with Tiso himself? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY Did Hamilton report to you? MR VAN ZYL That is correct. MR LAMEY How long was this before the first Coin operation? MR VAN ZYL The first attempt was on the 26th of February, the evening and the morning of the 27th of February. So it was nine days before that. MR LAMEY What was reported to you, if you look at the note itself? MR VAN ZYL That Hamilton had indeed had contact with Tiso once more and that Tiso had said that he was anxious to do some work and that his people as is referred here, his guys, that they were anxious to commit armed robbery. MR LAMEY Will you read the relevant part please. MR VAN ZYL: "... inform him that the guys that are prepared to the job, are still making enquiries on what is taking place. He informed me that we need to do the job fast so that the guys will trust what he is talking about. He went on to inform me that the guys have done a lot of jobs "armed robberies" in the past of which they are confident that this will do a good job. He then requested me to try and organise a meeting with Mr John so that he can finalise the matter and then go and make report back to the guys in Soweto." MR LAMEY So Tiso requested from Hamilton to arrange a further meeting with you? MR VAN ZYL That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY And a further meeting did take place? MR VAN ZYL That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY What was discussed or what was requested, can you recall? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, we did indeed meet. He confirmed that he wanted to commit the armed robbery and it did not go along according to the planning that I had in mind. MR LAMEY What do you mean by that? MR VAN ZYL As I have said earlier, the actual purpose of all this was to find out where these guys were committing robberies so that we could obtain such information, so that we could set a trap for them where they could be arrested. MR LAMEY So he comes back to you to follow up on the place which you had identified in the first? MR VAN ZYL That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY Did he mention anything about weapons? MR VAN ZYL He said that they were in possession of weapons "... he then informed us that the guys have pistols for the job and they will need a big weapon, say an AK." I would like to confirm, he did indeed ask me if I could provide him with AK47s. MR LAMEY Did you communicate the information to Sgt Holtzhausen? MR VAN ZYL Yes, I did Chairperson. MR LAMEY What was his instructions to you? MR VAN ZYL Once again that I had to continue with the investigation. MR LAMEY What did you tell Tiso, what would you do? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, the arrangement was that I would meet him and take him through to Nelspruit because he wanted to see the place. We then arranged a meeting with him for the 20th of February, whereafter we met him in Hillbrow, I think it was at the Record Bar, there is some CD shop there where we met. Referring to us, it is Hamilton and I who met him that particular morning. MR LAMEY Can you recall at that stage, if you knew of any connection between him and Mrs Winnie Mandela? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, it is difficult, I cannot specifically recall whether it was before or after this date. I can specifically recall the incident where I identified it, but the exact date, I am not quite certain of. MR LAMEY Very well. Just to complete this aspect, how did you hear that he was working for Mrs Mandela? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, I had a meeting with someone at the Brazilian Coffee Bar at the Johannesburg Court and after I had finalised my meeting there, I went outside and I saw Tiso in a white Mercedes. I had a conversation with Tiso and at that stage he said that he was waiting for Mrs Mandela because she was visiting her Advocates and that he had been appointed as her personal chauffeur. At a later stage I checked the registration number of the Mercedes and I surmised that it was an AVIS or Imperial vehicle, it was a hired vehicle. MR LAMEY Did you have contact with him in Shell House or did you know whether he had worked there and how do you know? MR VAN ZYL Yes Chairperson, he contacted us from Shell House. At some stage he for example had an arrangement with me that the Toyota Cressida which has been referred to during these proceedings, to take it to the Diplomat Hotel for him and the Diplomat Hotel was a block away from Shell House, so it would have made sense why I had to take it to that particular hotel. MR LAMEY At that stage, which institutions made use of Shell House? MR VAN ZYL The ANC Chairperson. MR LAMEY Was that their Head Office at that stage? MR VAN ZYL That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY Very well, let us return back to the point, you have said that you met Tiso in Hillbrow. MR VAN ZYL The appointment, yes, we did indeed meet him the morning of the 20th in the music shop, Hamilton and I. MR LAMEY What was discussed then? MR VAN ZYL We picked him up there and the three of us went through to Nelspruit in order to point out the premises which had to be robbed, to him. MR LAMEY Was this done? MR VAN ZYL We indeed went through to the industrial area of Nelspruit and with our arrival there, we identified the premises. MR LAMEY What was identified to him? MR VAN ZYL The Coin Security premises. I personally went into the Coin offices and during which time Hamilton and Tiso wandered around in the street outside in order to establish or familiarise themselves with the surroundings there. MR LAMEY May I just ask you was there a specific reason why you chose that place, or why you proposed that place to Tiso? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, in the underworld, or the role that I played, I tried to stay as close to the truth as possible, so if anybody wanted to follow up my information, that it could indeed be supported or that it would seem realistic. I was familiar with Coin Security's offices in Nelspruit and for that reason, I had indeed done so. MR LAMEY What did you know about the Coin Security building? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, I had done an investigation in the premises opposite Coin Security and one gentleman, a Mr Otto Muller was employed there in the Lowveld Training Centre and his wife worked as a receptionist at Coin and because of the investigation that I had undertaken, I did not go to their office, I went to the offices of Coin and had discussions there. MR LAMEY If Tiso would ask you specifics, then you would give it to him because you were familiar with the place? MR VAN ZYL Yes, I knew the premises quite well. MR LAMEY After Tiso had looked at the place, was he still interested? MR VAN ZYL Definitely. MR LAMEY What happened then, did you give further reports to Sgt Holtzhausen? MR VAN ZYL I kept him up to date with the developments and the investigation continuously. MR LAMEY Was an appointment or was an indication given to Tiso with regard to robbery of the premises? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, I was aware that at the end of the month there were large amounts of money on the premises and that information was also conveyed to Tiso and that is when we established a date which would be the 25th/26th of February. MR LAMEY Very well. Were any arrangements with regard to a vehicle and the AK47s which were requested? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, once again, in order to exercise control over the possible operation, I made the proposal that I would avail one of my vehicles to them and the reason for that was that I would have control of the vehicle and I would not loose them on the way to Nelspruit, so the consequence was that shortly before we departed for Nelspruit for the first attempt at Coin, I then handed over the light blue Toyota Cressida to Tiso and with regard to the AK47s ... MR LAMEY Where did you get the vehicle? MR VAN ZYL The vehicle was supplied by Sgt Holtzhausen. With regard to the AKs, I did not comply with his request. MR LAMEY Did you ever tell him anything about it? MR VAN ZYL Not that I can recall. I do recall that it was quite strange for me that he asked the AKs of me after he had offered AKs to me and afterwards I surmised that it was a matter of that he was too scared of taking his own weapons on such a long trip. CHAIRPERSON Wasn't he taking chances? MR VAN ZYL No, definitely that is not the impression that I had of him, Chairperson, he knew what was going on. He elaborated much about his activities. CHAIRPERSON Even after the baby powder? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, I didn't have a problem with the baby powder because I think it was a test that he wanted to test me. It looked very realistic and in the manner in which it is packaged also, it is as how one would buy it in the street. I think he only wanted to test me with the baby powder. CHAIRPERSON As well as the AK47s. MR VAN ZYL The AKs, he knew what the price was on the street and the fact that the AKs had come through the border on the petrol tanks, not everybody knew that. Most of the information was that AKs which were hidden in the petrol tanks of private vehicles, but he specifically referred to AKs which were hung in bags inside the big tanks. I had no doubt that he had firsthand knowledge or had access to AK47s. CHAIRPERSON Very well. I suppose you are going to be quite a while Mr Lamey? We are not at Coin, my colleague reminds me that we are on our way. We cannot conclude your evidence-in-chief Mr van Zyl, but we have indeed come to the end of the day and at this stage we would have to adjourn. MR HATTINGH Chairperson, after statements which were put to Mr Holtzhausen by Mr Lamey and because of documentation which were - that it may be necessary for us to refer to parts of the record with regard to the trial. I would have to read it the weekend, I haven't read it and if it is so, then I will ask your permission for this and then we will ascertain, we will make sure that copies be made and made available. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR HATTINGH I am mentioning it now so that Mr Lamey knows about it, so that he will also have an opportunity to study the documents. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we will note it as such and make it available without disrupting the flow of the proceedings. Mr van Zyl, we will stand down at this moment, and we will continue with the proceedings on Monday morning, at half past nine we will reconvene here in these premises. MR VAN ZYL I understand so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is that in order? Yes, we have come to the end of the day today, we cannot proceed much further. There is still a substantial bit of evidence-in-chief that Mr Lamey is going to lead, there is no sense in trying to complete that. For that reason, we are adjourning at this time, and we will reconvene here on Monday morning at half past nine. We are adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS