amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-08-31 JOHANNESBURG 1 MR RAMAILA PADFONTEIN FARM https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53659&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9908310902_jhb_990831jh.htm CHAIRPERSON We are going to deal with the matter of Ramaila. In this case also I am Judge Pillay. I am going to ask my colleagues to announce themselves for the purposes of the record. ADV SIGODI I'm Adv Sigodi from the Port Elizabeth Bar. MR MALAN Wynand Malan, Commissioner of the TRC. MR MBANDAZAYO I'm Lungelo Mbandazayo, representing the applicant from the Eastern Cape. Thank you, Sir. MS MTANGA I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Truth Commission. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, are there no appearances for any victim or families? MS MTANGA No, Chairperson. According to the investigation the wife of the deceased was - endeavours were made to locate her on the address that appeared on the police dockets and it was discovered that she no longer lives in that address and some other people live there and no-one knows where she is. An advertisement was put on the newspaper to try and have her attend the hearing, but she has not attended. And also that at the time of the death of the deceased they were estranged from one another. CHAIRPERSON No family member of the deceased has put in an appearance? MS MTANGA No person, no-one has appeared. MR MALAN Sorry, may I just follow up on this. Do you have a copy of the newspaper advert for us for our record? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'm not sure if I can furnish you with the advertisement, but I will endeavour to present it before the Committee. MR MALAN You see, Ms Mtanga, I'm getting rather upset about this because we're simply told that people can't be located, but no efforts communicated to us are every substantiated in terms of any documentary proof. And it's important that the victims do get notice. Is there any information whether deceased had children? MS MTANGA Chairperson, we don't have such information, but I do have the investigation reports indicating that they did endeavour to locate the family, but they couldn't locate anyone. MR MALAN I'll appreciate it if you could make that available to us. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ramaila, what language would you like to use? MR RAMAILA Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR RAMAILA (sworn states) MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, for the purposes of the hearing I will use the affidavit which has been supplied to - the supplementary affidavit for purposes of the ...(indistinct) I'll proceed and read the affidavit CHAIRPERSON If the applicant has had sight and understands the contents you don't need to read it. We've been given a copy of it. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. I've gone through with him. It's just for him to confirm that. Then I will... CHAIRPERSON Except if it's not signed. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, the original is with me which is signed because I requested that it be photostatted whilst I was busy with the other part of it. CHAIRPERSON Okay. As long as we get the original at some time. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes. Chairperson, after... CHAIRPERSON Just keep your finger on your microphone, please. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, what happened when I was requested two minutes, Chairperson, was because it was used for photostatting. Then I was requesting - I wanted him to sign the original, Chairperson. That's the reason it was photostatted before he signed it. So that's the reason. I will submit to the Committee ...(indistinct) hearing so that it can be part of the record, Chairperson, to sign one. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Ramaila, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Members of the Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents? MR RAMAILA Yes, that's true. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, then I will proceed to specially to paragraph 9 to ask the applicant to elaborate on the incident. Mr Ramaila, can you tell the Committee in your own words your preparation regarding the attack at the Padfontein Farm. MR RAMAILA With regards to the preparations that led to my attack on the farm. I was recruited by Patrick Mohale in Africa. I met him and when I met him he told me about the objective of the PAC organisation. The PAC stands for what and what is it fighting for here in the country South Africa that is. And I explained to him that I support in full force PAC. Resultantly I told him that there is a situation that is not quite conducive not to fall away from where I reside in Benoni. My telling him this, Patrick, is that the situation is not conducive there in Benoni resulting from oppression of the blacks. That there were people who were working at the farm and had told me or conveyed to me that there are white men, or the boss there is harassing them. And I told him that this white farmer is oppressing and torturing and harassing the people here. And those people who were working in the farm they were not South Africans, but came from Mozambique. On my telling Patrick this that those people are highly harassed and annoyed from South Africa, there's got to be something that gets done with regards to this. And as for then I was quite busy and engaged in other things and also there were firearms that we needed to be used to further this mission. And I told him that this white farmer has firearms as well. Therefore he asked me to go and approach that white man to repossess or confiscate the firearms from him. I agreed to that to go to that white farmer as long as I'll also have something in my hand. And he furnished me with a firearm as well. I then left and he also further instructed me that when I arrive there at the farm I should confiscate or take firearms and shoot the owner of the farm and confiscate all the firearms and everything that may be deemed necessary to further the mission of the organisation. Indeed I carried through this. I arrived at that farm and I could already tell the problem that was to get hold of that white farmer. And I therefore thought I should set alight. I set alight the grass so that this white man could get out and as to ascertain what was happening outside. That was my plan to get him out. Indeed that worked. He got out and together with his workers they ran to try to extinguish the fire and I went inside the house immediately at that very moment. And I could not necessarily get done what I wanted to do. In the meantime outside the people were finishing the work that they were up to. And I decided to hide in the lorry that was parked right in front of the door. When they came back after putting off the fire and got inside towards the house, the big house, he went inside the house together with these people, his workers. I stood and watched at them getting inside the house and as they walked into the house, well they followed the white man right the whole way and they left the door open. And I left the lorry, headed towards the house or inside the house. As I entered I saw a bedroom that had a couch or a sofa and I hid behind the sofa until the white man got out to close the door and the workers left the house as well to go to their respective places. And he went back inside and he went to the dining room and watched television. In that instant as he was watching the television I left to the main bedroom. When I got to the main bedroom I searched for the firearms if I could be able to locate some. Indeed I found two firearms. In the further search I got another one and I left the main bedroom with the intention of heading towards him so that he could see I'm now around and I have arrived in the house. And as I entered the hallway he was also leaving the dining room to his main bedroom. Then I had to hide and got into the kid's bedroom. And as he was around the bedroom where I was in I drew out my firearm and pointed it to him. And he could see what was happening was that I was armed and pointing the firearm at him. And he was left with no option or choice, but to lie down. As I said, insisted and instructed him to lie down he did not listen or did as I instructed. He tried to run away and I still tried to stop him from running away because I told him that there's no way you can go, because I'm right here and armed. He in spite of that still ran away and I decided there and then to shoot him. And I shot him right beneath his mouth. I think on the chin. And there were two flower pots. And there were also flowers in those flower pots or vases and inside those flower pots there was another rifle, big gun there. And I took him with to his bed. And took other things as well that were available there and loaded them in his car and drove away to Pietersburg. That is where I was going to meet my Africa Patrick Mohale. That's what happened. CHAIRPERSON What were your instructions from Patrick? You have to attack this farmer for what purpose? MR RAMAILA What I know and what I was told by Patrick Mohale is that PAC is in quite a struggle fighting the oppressors and because of that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Look, we know that. What were his orders to you in respect of this incident? That's what I want to know. MR RAMAILA When he instructed me he also conveyed to me that I should go and when I arrive or get there in the farm that I shall confiscate or take firearms and other things that could help in the severance of the organisation's plan or mission. And... MR MALAN Such as what things? MR RAMAILA ... and also instructed me to kill the owner of the farm. MR MALAN When he instructed you to take other things that could further the organisation's mission, what things did he suggest? MR RAMAILA According to me, or as for my interpretation of that that meant that could be things that could be sold. MR MALAN No, I'm not asking you what your interpretation is. I asked you whether he gave you examples of the type of things or the specific things that you could take. MR RAMAILA No, he did not give me an example. MR MALAN Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee what led to your arrest in Pietersburg? MR RAMAILA For me to be arrested I was on my way to Pietersburg where I was going to meet with Patrick Mohale. I was going to meet with him in ...(indistinct) at Mugade's place or the area that was called Mugade. This is a quiet place and a very small place. There were no cars around during the week especially. Because of that I left and when I got to ...(indistinct) I parked or stopped at a certain place where I figured if I could delay around there I will be able to make it safely to the place where we will be meeting. As I was still there waiting for an appropriate time for me to proceed to get there, I saw suddenly the police emerging in possession of firearms. And when I got out they did not even pose a question as to what car - whose car I was driving. They were already assaulting me. And I found myself at ...(indistinct) police station. CHAIRPERSON What type of things did you take from that house? MR RAMAILA I remember very well I took a typing machine as well as the TV set and two suitcases that had clothes in them. And I loaded all that in the car and took the car as well that belonged to the owner of the farm. MR MALAN Were you in any way involved with a motor cycle? A motor cycle stolen at the place - at the farm. MR RAMAILA I know nothing with regards to the motor cycle. CHAIRPERSON In respect of which offences are you applying for amnesty? MR RAMAILA I seek amnesty because at the time of this offence that time was regarded as a very violent time and especially that was oppression and we were in a struggle. For me to sit back ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Ramaila, I've heard that. I've read it. I know those things. I'm asking simply for which crimes are you wanting or are you seeking amnesty? MR RAMAILA I seek amnesty for what I committed. Repossession as the applicant states because I repossessed items because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Tell me what you are applying for. Amnesty in respect of which offences? MR RAMAILA Yes, I seek amnesty for that that I killed and after whilst took or confiscated things that were there. ADV SIGODI Were you the only person who was given these instructions? MR RAMAILA Yes. ADV SIGODI Was is just you and Patrick Mohale? They gave only you these instructions? MR RAMAILA Yes, that is correct. They gave me the instruction alone. ADV SIGODI And you went to the farm alone. You were not accompanied by any other people? MR RAMAILA I was alone as I carried this mission. ADV SIGODI Who gave you the information about the ill-treatment of the farm workers? MR RAMAILA Two men who were working there at that particular farm, Santos Pilankose and Sipho Mashinene. ADV SIGODI Were they also from Mozambique? MR RAMAILA Yes, they were from Mozambique. ADV SIGODI Do you know if they are still - do you know where they are today? MR RAMAILA I have no idea as to their whereabouts as till today because they were residing in the same premises, the farm that is. ADV SIGODI Do you know why they came and gave you this information about this farmer? Why did they choose you? MR RAMAILA For them to tell me this. I was a taxi driver, a local taxi driver in Daveton location and I met them. They were coming from a certain place, shopping complex in Daveton. They had just purchased things like food, two crates of soft drinks and they asked me that I offer - deliver services to where they live. And in - as we were driving on the way towards the farm they stopped me a bit far away from the gate of the farm. And I asked them where - as to where they were living, as to where they stayed. And they showed me. And I asked them this is quite questionable. Why don't you leave me to drive all the way to the gate exactly where you are staying? They told me that the boss or the white man they are working for does not want any visitors and if they - or if he could see this that will lead them into trouble and they may be dismissed from work as well resultantly. And that led to my knowing about them. That's when they told me more about their boss. He does not have time for them. And if they don't follow his instructions he treats them very bad. ADV SIGODI Was it the first time that you met these people when you were giving them - when you were taking them to the farm? MR RAMAILA Yes, that was the first time I met with them on that particular day. ADV SIGODI Did you meet them afterwards? MR RAMAILA Afterwards yes, I met them when I was going to them to ask them or to tell them that I had already met with Patrick and Patrick told me that I should ensure that - what's happening there and I must meet with these people so that they tell me exactly their routine and their daily activities and what happens where. So I get myself acclimatised to their ways. CHAIRPERSON Let's get back to the question I asked. What are you applying for? MR RAMAILA ...(no audible answer) CHAIRPERSON Is it rape, murder, shoplifting, whatever? MR RAMAILA I seek amnesty for playing a role in the killing of the owner of that farm and the things that I took thereof. Things like I've already made mention of. CHAIRPERSON Please repeat it. MR RAMAILA Well, I took a typing machine, a TV set as well as two suitcases. And the car and firearms that I found in the house. CHAIRPERSON How many firearms? MR RAMAILA There were four firearms I realised in the house. CHAIRPERSON Where do you stay? MR RAMAILA I stay in Daveton in Mandela Park in the informal settlement, the shacks, no 29. CHAIRPERSON Where were you going to meet - what's this guy's name - Patrick? MR RAMAILA We were going to meet with him in Pietersburg ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON How far is that from Daveton? MR RAMAILA It's quite a distance. CHAIRPERSON Ja. A couple of ...(intervention) MR RAMAILA It's quite far. CHAIRPERSON ... it's more than 100 kilo's, is that not so? MR RAMAILA It's 250 kilometres from Daveton to Pietersburg. CHAIRPERSON Ja. And you are on your way - what were you going to do there with Patrick where you're going to meet him there in Pietersburg? MR RAMAILA I was going to hand these things to him. CHAIRPERSON The typing machine? MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON The TV set? MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON The two cases of clothes?] MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON The four firearms? MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And the motor vehicle? MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was he supposed to do with it? MR RAMAILA As an APLA Commander I had no idea as to what he was going to put those things into use for. I thought he will use those things. Perhaps sell them and get money and the Africans were poor at the time. Maybe they could have been helped by the money that's been realised from the selling of those items. CHAIRPERSON Selling those items were going to deliver our people from bondage, poverty. Is that what you thought? MR RAMAILA I mean to say that because what I knew from Patrick is that the organisation had firearms and the dwellings of the Africans were quite poor and the infra-structure as well was of poor quality. And that money could have helped to furnish or to supply them with food. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, how were you going to get back to Daveton? MR RAMAILA I was ...(indistinct) going to go back to Daveton. I was working in ...(indistinct) as a taxi driver. I resided in Daveton. CHAIRPERSON No. How were you going to get back from Pietersburg to Daveton? You're going to give this car to Patrick that took you there. MR RAMAILA I could have used a taxi or buses. CHAIRPERSON No. Don't tell me what you could have used. Tell me what your plans were. What were you going to do to get back to Daveton? MR RAMAILA ...(no audible answer) CHAIRPERSON Well, did you have a plan to get back to Daveton? MR RAMAILA At the time I was still going to Pietersburg. So I wouldn't have thought or had a plan in place as to how I will be getting back to Daveton. CHAIRPERSON No, no, no. Part of your plan was to rob this gentleman - kill him, rob him, take those proceeds to Patrick in Pietersburg. Surely there must be the rest of the plan as how to come back to Daveton, not so? That must have been part of the plan? MR RAMAILA Yes, that was part of the plan. CHAIRPERSON Ja. Now I want to know that part of the plan, how were you going to get back to Daveton? MR RAMAILA That is exactly what I'm saying that I was still on the plan of getting to Pietersburg. In other words I'll cross the bridge when I get there. I did not have a plan yet in place about going back to Daveton and with whom to go back to Daveton. CHAIRPERSON You - what you are actually saying is now - or let me ask you first. Why didn't you deliver these items and the motor vehicle to Patrick in Daveton then? MR RAMAILA Patrick was not in Daveton. Patrick was in Pretoria on his way to Pietersburg that week. This is why he said to me when I go for this operation and as soon as I'm done with it I shall now go to Pietersburg. That's where I'll find him. CHAIRPERSON And somewhere quiet so you can handle with all these things where not many people are. Is that what I understood you to say in your evidence? MR RAMAILA No. CHAIRPERSON I thought you said you were waiting for him there where there was not many cars, especially because it was not a weekend or something to that effect. Did you not say so? MR RAMAILA I did say that. CHAIRPERSON Ja. Isn't that the reason you went to Pietersburg then? To get to a quiet place so that you could handle with these things. MR RAMAILA No, that is not so. CHAIRPERSON Anyway, you had just committed horrendous crimes, including murder and your plan was to take all these things to Pietersburg to hand over to Patrick. And yet you tell us that you did not have a plan as to how to get back to Daveton. When and how etcetera, and with whom. Is that what you're telling us? MR RAMAILA Yes, that is so. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on, Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Ramaila, where did you meet Patrick first when you first met him? MR RAMAILA The first encounter with Patrick was in Hammanskraal, Pretoria region where my uncle resided and had a house there and as I visited my uncle's house I met Patrick because he was renting a house in the same premises where my uncle's house was. A small room I think in the back. MR MBANDAZAYO You have told the Committee - you have been asked by the Committee that you were going to Pietersburg. Did you know the place where you were going to meet with Patrick in Pietersburg and if you knew it, how did you know it? MR RAMAILA The place upon which myself and Patrick would meet in Pietersburg was a place that was quite familiar to me as well as Patrick. He liked visiting the place or going to the place. For me to get to know the place I was in his company to go to that place. MR MBANDAZAYO During the evidence in court... MR MALAN Sorry Mr Mbandazayo. I am not sure that I understood or heard it. What was the answer there, Mr Ramaila? Did you go with Patrick to that place in Pietersburg? Is that what you told us? MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN After the robbery and the killing? MR RAMAILA No, before the incident. MR MALAN Now when did you first meet Patrick? MR RAMAILA I first met the first time with Patrick in Pretoria in Hammanskraal. MR MALAN And when you met with him for the first time he told you about PAC. MR RAMAILA Yes, he told me about the objectives of the PAC and that PAC is in a war. MR MALAN The objectives. But he told you at the first meeting about the PAC. MR RAMAILA Yes, the first time we met he told me all about that. MR MALAN And according to a statement of yours on the bundle, at that stage you told him about this farmer and the Mozambiquans and the ill-treatment of the Mozambiquans. Is that also correct? MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN And then he told you that you could do something about it because that's what you wrote us in this statement and you decided you would go there and kill this farmer. Is that correct? MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN Now when did you go to Pietersburg with Patrick? MR RAMAILA You see this thing did not happen in one day or that particular day when we met with Patrick. It happened as the days went on because when I told Patrick about this he said to me we must talk about this further. As for now he was in a rush. He had a meeting that he was rushing to in Pietersburg. That was the day when I went with him to Pietersburg and got to see the place where we would later on meet after the incident. CHAIRPERSON From where did you go with him to Pietersburg? MR RAMAILA We were coming from Hammanskraal. CHAIRPERSON How far is that from Pietersburg? MR RAMAILA It's also quite a distance. CHAIRPERSON How long did you drive? MR RAMAILA I don't quite remember - I don't remember the minutes or the time. CHAIRPERSON An hour? More than an hour? MR RAMAILA It depends how fast you drive by the way. CHAIRPERSON No, that day when you did drive, did it take you more than a hour or a hour or less than a hour to get there? MR RAMAILA I wouldn't be able to say as to how long than can take from Pietersburg to Hammanskraal. CHAIRPERSON Did you people not talk about the plans of this farm during that trip? MR RAMAILA No. CHAIRPERSON Why not? He was in a hurry. He said I must go to Pietersburg. You're in the car with him. Why don't you discuss this problem with that farm with the Mozambiquans? MR RAMAILA Well, as for me and Patrick had some discussions. Indeed Patrick explained to me as to what his role and position was and under who was he working at the time of the trip. He was the one talking mostly during the trip. ADV SIGODI How long was it after this trip did you go and kill this farmer? MR RAMAILA After a few months. I think three or two months. ADV SIGODI And during this period did you attempt any - did you meet Patrick during these two or three months? MR RAMAILA No, I had not met with him because I was no longer in Hammanskraal. I had already left Hammanskraal. I was now home in Daveton. I had secured employment in Daveton. CHAIRPERSON Are you a member of any political party? MR RAMAILA Yes, I am a member. CHAIRPERSON Which one? MR RAMAILA PAC. CHAIRPERSON For how long? MR RAMAILA I started supporting PAC from 1990. Then met Patrick Mohale '91. CHAIRPERSON So you supported the PAC before you met Patrick. MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you knew everything about the PAC before you met him. MR RAMAILA I did not know a thing before about PAC before I met with Patrick. All I knew was that PAC is an organisation that was fighting on behalf of the blacks who were oppressed and poor at the time. That's all I knew that blacks were oppressed by the whites in relation to the organisation. CHAIRPERSON So you're applying for amnesty in respect of the murder, the things you took. Would that be robbery or theft? MR RAMAILA (No audible answer) CHAIRPERSON You robbed that person, isn't it? You killed him and you took the things. So that's robbery. Anything else? MR RAMAILA Well, I was not there - or I did not go there to steal or to do the way as you are explaining, your Honour. But the reason why I had gone there was that I was going to take what was taken from us, the black race, as Patrick had already explained to me. MR MALAN May I refer you to the bundle. On page 5 of the bundle there's a letter that you apparently wrote to the TRC. Is that your letter? MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN Did you write the letter? Did someone write it for you? MR RAMAILA I asked somebody to write for me because I'm illiterate. I can't write. MR MALAN Can you read what's in this letter? MR RAMAILA Well, reading English is my major problem. MR MALAN Now let me just tell you what this person wrote on your behalf. And I'll summarise it. Mr Mbandazayo can check if he wants to. And I'll do it without necessarily now referring to the letter since you can in any event not read it. But what you wrote the TRC here is that at some stage you met these two Mozambiquans. They told you that they were being abused. That they were fired without any reason and it appears from the letter that the Mozambiquans were not in the employ of this farmer when you met them. Then you continue and you later say that you met up with Patrick. He told you about the PAC and then you remembered these Mozambiquans and you discovered that at last you could do something about this farmer. This is going over to page 6 now. You told Patrick what was going on and Patrick told you that you should go and kill the farmer and he gave you a gun. Can you remember that Patrick gave you a gun? MR RAMAILA Yes, I do. MR MALAN It wasn't your gun. MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN And then Patrick said to you - and this is now more or less in line with your evidence - that you could take whatever you saw fit to generate funds for the organisation. And he told you that this was sort of a test and after completing your test you should meet him in Pietersburg it looks like at Skinard the stand which was occupied by a PAC member whom you knew. Now who was this PAC member? MR RAMAILA David Mohale. MR MALAN Was this family of Patrick's? MR RAMAILA No, they knew each other. MR MALAN Did you meet David Mohale in Pietersburg when you got there? MR RAMAILA No, I did not meet him there. MR MALAN Why not? MR RAMAILA It's because I got arrested before I could get there. MR MALAN Now in your trial you did not give evidence. Is that correct? MR RAMAILA Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN You were nevertheless found guilty on the evidence of some State witnesses. Is that correct? MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN Now the name Poppie, is that name known to you? MR RAMAILA: Yes, I do know. MR MALAN Who is Poppie? MR RAMAILA Poppie is my relative. It's a member of my family. MR MALAN Where does Poppie live? MR RAMAILA Lives in Skinard in Pietersburg. MR MALAN Isn't that where David Mohale lived? MR RAMAILA No. MR MALAN Why did you say in your letter to the TRC that you had to meet Patrick at a stand in Skinard occupied by a PAC member whom I knew, which member you told us is David Mohale. Why didn't you go to David Mohale? Why did you go to Poppie or shall I first ask did you go to Poppie when you got to Skinard. MR RAMAILA I did say that Skinard is quite a massive area the community is massive as well. That is where I parked and waited for the time that I would be able to proceed to the designated area where we would be meeting. MR MALAN Please, Mr Ramaila, let's not play tricks. You drove from Benoni to Pietersburg - or you drove from Benoni to Daveton. You washed at Daveton according to your application. Then you got back into the car and you drove to Pietersburg. Skinard is at Pietersburg, close to Pietersburg. It's one of the districts there. It's not that massive an area. It can't be because Pietersburg itself is not that massive an area. You drive to get to Patrick - to David to meet Patrick Mohale - to meet Patrick at David Mohale's place. That's the instruction. It's a place you know. You know exactly where that is. You've been there before. Isn't that what you told us? MR RAMAILA Yes, that is so. MR MALAN Now why did you not go to David Mohale's stand? Why do you go to Poppie's stand in Skinard? MR RAMAILA Skinard is an area just before Mangaleng, the place I will be going to Patrick Mohale. Before you get to Mangaleng where Patrick was you would have to drive past Skinard. MR MALAN Yes. Why didn't you drive to Patrick Mohale? That's the question. It's not far. You have a car. You've driven the best part of 300 kilometres - 250 - 300 kilometres and now you stop a few kilometres short of Patrick Mohale's place. Why? Of the place where you're to meet him. MR RAMAILA The reason why I did not go ...(indistinct) it was during the day and in this place where I was going to go to it was common knowledge or it was known that none of them had a car. Now if I could drive my car there during the day there will be some informers who could alert the police and I may be apprehended with immediate effect. Now there were you waited, where you got arrested, what did you do with the TV set? What did you do with the typewriter? What did you do with the guns? What did you do with the clothes? MR RAMAILA When I was arrested everything that I had that I took from the house was in the car except for the firearms because when they told me to alight from the car, the police that is, I kicked the gun under the car and it got hidden in some ash that had mounted there. I was taken. CHAIRPERSON What happened to the four firearms that you stole? MR RAMAILA The four firearms were in the trunk the boot of the car and when I was arrested they were in the boot of the car. The police confiscated those items on my arrest. MR MALAN Mr Ramaila, evidence was adduced at the trial that Poppie showed them the firearm. That the firearm had been buried somewhere. It was covered in plastic. Now did you give a firearm to Poppie to hide for you? MR RAMAILA I wesn't giving Poppie a firearm. I only asked for a plastic from her that there were bullets or ammunition that were lying loose in the car and I asked for a plastic so I may be able to get them into one plastic the bullets. This was at the time when I had this plastic right next to me when the police arrived. And as I was - saw the police coming I took that firearm and also ...(indistinct) and the place where I was parked there was some ash that had been discarded and when the police instructed me to get out, I now saw or found an opportunity to kick this plastic - this firearm underneath that ...(indistinct) that it mounted right next to where I was parked. CHAIRPERSON Where was Poppie when you did that? MR RAMAILA She was next to me. CHAIRPERSON She saw you doing it. MR RAMAILA Yes, she saw me. CHAIRPERSON Where was the police who arrested you when you did that? MR RAMAILA They were standing in front of the vehicle and others were on the side of the car. And they had their firearms out. MR MALAN Not a single policeman held you by the shoulder when you were arrested. MR RAMAILA Well, they touched me after I'd gotten out of the car because they instructed me to do so. Get out of the car that is. MR MALAN You see, the evidence adduced at the trial was that Poppie said you gave her the gun wrapped in plastic with the instructions to put it - to hide it in Dina's - her sister's - home. Do you know Dina? MR RAMAILA Yes, I do know her. MR MALAN Then she says that she did not take it to Dina's home, but she went away near a rubbish heap and she indeed buried this. And then the evidence further was and the warrant officer - I can't recall his name - Matsepe - went with her and they retrieved this firearm and they came back to the car. You couldn't have kicked it so far that they have to move off - and that's also part of the evidence - that you weren't in their presence when this firearm was retrieved. So you couldn't have kicked it under the car and it happened to fall in some ash. Who was with you in the car when you were arrested? MR RAMAILA When I was arrested the one who was right next to me was my relative. The one who was with in the car when I was still ...(indistinct) to get ready to leave to the place where this meeting. MR MALAN Ja, what's his name? MR RAMAILA I don't quite remember the name because it happened quite a long time ago ...(indistinct) But he's part of the family, my family that is. MR MALAN Is he a brother to Poppie? MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN What's his name? MR RAMAILA His name is an original name. I've forgotten it truly his name. I don't have the recollection to his name. MR MALAN Then these two Mozambiquans, when you met them were they still working on the farm of this Mr Rudman, the deceased - the victim? MR RAMAILA They were working there. MR MALAN So they weren't fired, they were simply abused and tortured you say. MR RAMAILA (No audible answer) MR MALAN The farmer didn't fire these Mozambiquans, he just treated them badly. Is that your evidence? MR RAMAILA Yes, at the time when I met them he had not fired them yet. MR MALAN Did you meet up with them again? MR RAMAILA Yes, I did. MR MALAN Now when was the last time that you saw them? MR RAMAILA The last time I saw them was in 1991. MR MALAN Where? MR RAMAILA There at the farm. MR MALAN Mr Ramaila, were they not charged with you? MR RAMAILA No, they were not charged with me. MR MALAN If you look at page 9 of the bundle there were four accused. Yourself, a certain Mr Jacob Pierry and then Santos Pilankose and Sipho Mashinene. And if I remember correctly you told us Sipho Nkosi and Sipho Mashinene were the names of the two Mozambiquans. CHAIRPERSON Santos. MR MALAN Santos Nkosi and Sipho Mashinene. That's what you told us in your evidence in chief here. Are they the Mozambiquans? MR RAMAILA Yes, they are the ones. CHAIRPERSON Why do you tell us that they weren't charged with you? MR RAMAILA (No audible answer) CHAIRPERSON Because they were charged with you. MR RAMAILA As soon as I got to Benoni where I was charged I found out that they were also arrested because of this thing. CHAIRPERSON Look, maybe you don't understand what I'm asking. All I'm asking is have you got an explanation why two minutes ago you told us that these Mozambiquans were not charged with you, when in fact they were you and you admit that now? Are you able to explain that to us? Not why they were arrested or who arrested them. Why you told us now that they were not charged with you when in fact you knew that they were? Have you got any explanation? MR RAMAILA Well, one thing I could explain or one explanation I could advance is that I discovered that they were also arrested for the same matter because when I got there I found out that they were suddenly accused as well. CHAIRPERSON And you saw them in court. MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON They were sitting next to you - or standing next to you. MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON So why did you not tell us that they were charged with you? You see the case for the State was that all of you were involved in a robbery and a killing. They happened to be acquitted because none of them gave evidence. There were limited evidence which implicated you on which the judge decided to find you guilty. But the State's case were that you with the two Mozambiquans were involved in this robbery and killing. And you tell me that they were working for the farmer. Were they still working for the farmer on the day of the killing? MR RAMAILA They were not working on the day in question when I was going to go to the farm because they had already been fired and they were working in another place close by. MR MALAN How did you know that there were guns in this house of Rudman? Who told you that he had guns? MR RAMAILA I was told by Sipho Nkosi and Santos. MR MALAN How did they know that? Did they tell you? MR RAMAILA They were working there. MR MALAN Who is Jacobe Pierry? MR RAMAILA I don't know him. I don't know Jacob Pierry. I only saw him in the stand in court of law. MR MALAN Is he not family? MR RAMAILA No. MR MALAN He's not Poppie's brother? MR RAMAILA No. MR MALAN Did you speak to him? MR RAMAILA Well, yes I asked him as to how he was now part of this. He also said he didn't know. He just heard that he was also there present when this incident happened or took place. MR MALAN Did you speak to Nkosi Mashinene - to Santos and Sipho during that trial? MR RAMAILA Yes, I did speak to them - with them. MR MALAN Did you ask them how it happened that they got involved in this trial? MR RAMAILA Well, I asked them how they were now involved in this trial and they told me that policemen suspected them and came to them and arrested them. MR MALAN Did they ask you anything about this trial, Santos and Sipho? MR RAMAILA Well, they did ask, but there was nothing much I told to them at the time. MR MALAN What did they ask you? MR RAMAILA They asked me as to whether it was me who told the police that they were also involved in this matter or what exactly. CHAIRPERSON Patrick Mohale, do you know where he is? MR RAMAILA Patrick Mohale, I know his whereabouts. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat that. MR RAMAILA Patrick Mohale in 1991, between 1991 and 1992 Patrick Mohale was found in Pretoria OD prison in the single cell and hanging there with his shoe laces. That's what I discovered or learnt about him. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, have you got anymore questions? MR MALAN Sorry, may I just ask one further question. You say that you were given orders by Patrick Mohale to kill this Mr Rudman as per the slogan kill the farmer, kill the boer. That's what you said your application. Do you recall that? MR RAMAILA Very well I do remember. MR MALAN Is that correct? Did he tell you - did he give you the slogan? MR RAMAILA Yes, he did give me. MR MALAN Is this slogan a PAC slogan? MR RAMAILA Yes, it is a PAC slogan. MR MALAN I have no further questions, chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, have you got anymore questions. MR MBANDAZAYO None, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Have you got any questions? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) or just a few? I want to decide whether to adjourn now before you start questioning or not. MS MTANGA It's quite a few questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay, then we'll adjourn for lunch then. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR RAMAILA (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Ramaila, I just have one question to ask you. The offence that you are applying for took place on the 7th of August 1991 and you were asked by the Committee when were you given the order to kill by Mr Patrick Mohale. When in 1991 did you get the order? You didn't answer that question. You didn't state exactly when. You just said you met him for the first time, but you didn't say when you met him for the first time. MR RAMAILA The order was given to me by him after I'd met with him. If I remember well it was in August. MS MTANGA On page 4 of your application, paragraph 11(b) you had been asked there to state the name and the address of the person who gave you the order and your response was that you were ordered to go and kill the farmer, kill the boer. Mr Patrick Mohale was the person who ordered you and you said he resides in Pretoria, address unknown, and then you gave the date 29th February 1991. The date you give there 29th February 1991, what was that date for? MR RAMAILA This is the date upon which we met myself and Patrick Mohale on the first time. MS MTANGA Is that the date when you first met him and he gave you the order? MR RAMAILA Yes, that's the one. MS MTANGA You've just said that you - he gave you the order in August 1991. So which is correct? Is it February '91 or August '91? MR RAMAILA When we met myself and Patrick it would have been 1991. As for the order I went to him as I said the order was given to me in August. It was in August when I went to tell him now about the news about the farm. MS MTANGA My last question to you ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What would you say if I told you there was no 29th of February 1991? It doesn't exist. What did you say? MR RAMAILA All I will say that there is such a date namely 29th February. CHAIRPERSON There was no such date. Except for a leap year February stops on the 28th of February. MR RAMAILA All what I'm saying is that this date is the one I remember upon which myself and Patrick Mohale met. CHAIRPERSON But you couldn't have met on that date. That date doesn't exist. MR MALAN Why do you remember that date? MR RAMAILA Well, I remember because before or prior to our meeting - or myself meeting with him there was a birthday in that week on the 26th of February. My brother's birthday who is my cousin's brother in actual fact. And I met with him exactly three days later. MS MTANGA Sorry. I asked you how long after you had met Patrick Mohale did you go and kill the deceased and you said you had met Patrick about two to three months before then. So how do you reconcile that with this date which you have given to us? MR RAMAILA This is what I said because it took quite some time before I brought this mission to fruition. CHAIRPERSON The 29th or the 28th of February or the 1st of March is not three months before you committed this murder. This murder was committed in August 1991. Can you explain that? MR RAMAILA Yes, I can. CHAIRPERSON Please do. You have the opportunity to do so. MR RAMAILA Oh well, I beg your pardon. I didn't hear what you said. CHAIRPERSON You told us earlier that you'd met Patrick for the first time about two to three months before you committed this murder. Correct? Do you remember that? MR RAMAILA Yes, I do remember that. CHAIRPERSON Yet in your application you say that you met him three days after your cousin's birthday which was on the 26th of February in 1991. Now even if we reconstruct the calender properly three days after the 26th would be the 1st of March 1991. Now from 1st of March to the 7th of August is not three months. It's more than three months. Yet you tell us that you met Patrick for the first time at most three months before you committed the murder. Can you explain that to us? I'm giving you an opportunity to explain it. MR RAMAILA Yes, as I said that I met with Patrick for the first time. Indeed we met for the very first time as I had already made mention of that fact. Then as we met for the second time now... CHAIRPERSON Look, maybe you don't understand what I'm saying. It seems to us that you're not telling us the truth when you say first that the first time you met Patrick was about three months before you committed the murder. In your written application you make mention of meeting Patrick albeit the first or last or some other time, at least on the 1st of March 1991, which is about five months before you committed the murder. Can you explain that? If you can't then say you can't explain it. MR RAMAILA Well, I don't quite understand what exactly do you want my explanation on. CHAIRPERSON Because it seems to us that you're not telling us the truth about when you first met Patrick. MR RAMAILA Well, the truth I have mentioned is that I first met with Patrick before carrying this operaration. But what I remember is that I met with Patrick - or I met with Patrick rather in February. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Ramaila, I would like to put it to you that your operation is quite a unique operation from the operations that we have had from APLA people or people who ...(indistinct) they're APLA in that you had given an order to go and kill the farmer - a person on his farm. Patrick Mohale ordered you. It was a one man mission. You haven't given us any evidence that you were trained to - you were trained in the use of a firearm. And this is in total contrast to applications we've heard where murder is involved where there would be other people to assist. What do you say to this? MR RAMAILA Well, my comment in relation to what has been laid. I will simply state that I did that because at the time I had no information about APLA as to how it functioned and what happens when they function. I so desired at the time to be part of APLA so I could help in the severance of the struggle in relation to the organisation. CHAIRPERSON You see what is being put to you is that it seemed to Ms Mtanga that when APLA sends people or wants to perform an operation they never used to send out one person. They used to send out a unit or part of a unit. It follows then the suggestion is that you were not part of an APLA operation because otherwise your commander would have sent you with somebody else or some other people who were also members of APLA and trained. What have you got to say about that? MR RAMAILA Well, what I will or could say is that as for Patrick after he had told me that - or recruited me to be an APLA soldier he did mention that there are missions or operations that I have to undertake as a test so to ensure that I was not some kind of an informer wanting to know much about them and carry information across. So for him to ensure that I'm not that kind of a person or I'm not such a person I should be able to undertake some operation as a form of test. MR MALAN Mr Ramaila, but you also told us that he told you everything about APLA and how they operated and what the mission was. Do you think an APLA cadre would inform a suspected or potential informer of such activities? Can you explain that? MR RAMAILA What I would explain is that there are many things that transpired around those years or rather happened around that time. And I so desired to be a soldier as well, APLA soldier. That is - this is why he advanced all the information which he did at that time. CHAIRPERSON But you had to prove yourself. APLA was not so reckless as to allow anybody into its ranks. You had to prove yourself. They had to know that you were trustworthy. That you weren't an impimpi. That's what's being put to you. They weren't going to send somebody that didn't - who hadn't proved himself on such a mission and tell him everything that they - how they operated because the police wanted to know. The police didn't know everything. MR RAMAILA Well, that is so. That is the case, but I will still further say this about Patrick. He told me that as to what the organisation was fighting for and exactly their objectives in this fight of the Africans. These things that he said I should prove myself upon, my capability and also to ensure that I'm not there on another mission or having other ulterior agendas, but the sole objective is to be part and truly so loyal to the organisation. CHAIRPERSON So you had not proved your loyalty yet. Is that - we agree on that. Not so? MR RAMAILA Yes, I had not proved my loyalty there because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And yet you say that a commander of a structure of APLA told you certain things the way it operated before you prove your loyalty. Is that what you say? MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Mtanga. MR MALAN Sorry. Just before you proceed. Mr Ramaila, when I referred you to page 5 of the bundle, that letter you wrote or had written to us, I think you responded there by saying that Patrick told you you could kill - or Patrick told you about their objectives and on that day you realised there was something that you could do for these Mozambiquans. On Patrick telling you. That's what you wrote right at the bottom of page 5 of the bundle. Remember that I put it to you and that you confirmed it? MR RAMAILA ...(no audible answer) MR MALAN Do you hear the translation? MR RAMAILA Yes, I heard. MR MALAN Do you remember that you confirmed this? MR RAMAILA Yes, I do remember. MR MALAN I also put it to you. I asked you did Patrick instruct you on that same day that he told you go and kill the farmer, and your response was yes, on that first meeting he told you that you should kill the farmer. Remember that that was your answer? MR RAMAILA Yes, I do. MR MALAN It now turns out that if your date on the application, the 29th of February or what would have been that date is correct, that it's more than five months later that you go and kill this farmer. That's common cause accepting that the date was correct. But the question is when did you first meet the Mozambiquans? MR RAMAILA The meeting with this Mozambiquans was - happened - or took place in 1991 I don't remember the particulars or the exact date. I won't be accurate. MR MALAN Was that before or after you had met with Patrick? MR RAMAILA That was after I had met with Patrick the first time. MR MALAN Well, if that is so I don't understand your letter at all because according to your letter you encountered these Mozambiquans. They were ill-treated, but you could do nothing. According to your letter you then meet with Patrick. He tells you about APLA and then you discover that at least that you could do something about the farmer, to quote you from your letter. Now did you meet the Mozambiquans before you met Patrick or after you had met Patrick? MR RAMAILA I met with them before meeting with Patrick the first time. MR MALAN Let me - I'll leave it there. Let me just ask you one other question. You say that you were a taxi driver at the time of this killing. You were driving a taxi. MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN Was it your own taxi or did you drive for someone else? MR RAMAILA It was not my taxi but I was hired to drive that taxi. MR MALAN You were hired to drive the taxi on a daily basis? Every day? MR RAMAILA Every day except for Sunday. MR MALAN Now when you did this operation, when you went to kill the farmer and when you drove off to Pietersburg, weren't you supposed to report for duty to drive the taxi the next morning? MR RAMAILA Well, I still had two weeks not working because there was something wrong with the taxi I was driving. This is why I was able to go to Pretoria before and be able to carry the mission and go to Pietersburg. MR MALAN Why would you have had two weeks? MR RAMAILA Well, the taxi I was driving was not in a good condition. It was quite an old vehicle, a Commando Chev. So there's something wrong with the bolts joining. MR MALAN Then lastly. How did you get to the farm where you killed this person? MR RAMAILA Well, I entered the farm ...(intervention) MR MALAN No, how did you get there, not how did you enter. How did you get there from Benoni? Where were you driving the taxi, in Benoni? Where did you live? You lived in Daveton. MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN Now how did you get from Daveton to the farm? MR RAMAILA Leaving my home where I was preparing for the upcoming operation that is attacking the farm, I went into a taxi. MR MALAN Did you go to the farm by taxi? MR RAMAILA Well, I went into a taxi and got off from the taxi and then walked to the farm. MR MALAN How did you know that you would be able to get away in the farmer's car? MR RAMAILA Well, I thought about it when I was already there that one thing I could use as my mode of transport will be this particular car, the vehicle. MR MALAN Right. If there was no car you would have had to walk again with the firearms and again board a taxi somewhere. MR RAMAILA Well, on that day in question these things happened at night. I would have walked after the mission or after the operation back to Daveton. There was no way I could have been stranded because it's not quite a distance from the farm to Daveton. MR MALAN But you would not have been able to carry the four firearms, the TV set, the typewriter and the two bags of clothes. MR RAMAILA Well, that is true. Because my intention was to go and search for arms and other things that I could deem fit for the furtherance of the mission of the organisation. Because of this I would have taken only the firearms and left the rest had it not been for the fact that there was no transport - there was transport. MR MALAN Just a last question. Are you sure that Santos Nkosi and Sipho Mashinene didn't help you in this operation in some way? Were they not the workers on the farm? MR RAMAILA Well, the truth is Santos en Sipho never assisted me in carrying this operation through. MR MALAN After the farmer had returned from putting out the fire that you started outside you say he entered the house and his three labourers also entered his house. And they left the door open and you followed in through the door and you hid yourself in the house in the bedroom. MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN Now how long did the workers stay in the house? MR RAMAILA They were not there for long because they went into the hallway and into the kitchen. Just a few minutes later they left the house to go outside. MR MALAN Did you hear them talk? MR RAMAILA Yes, I heard them talk. MR MALAN What did they discuss? MR RAMAILA I heard the workers only telling the boss, the white man that they were in the chicken huts outside. They don't know who set the fire in the grass outside. They had no - they could not account to that. MR MALAN Did the farmer abuse his workers, those three workers? MR RAMAILA I wouldn't know because I did not even know those particular workers. I only saw them when they were under the light that they were blacks. And I could also tell from the way they had been dressed that they were mere workers on the farm. MR MALAN No, that's not my question. I mean when you heard him talking to them, did he abuse them, did he shout at them, did he accuse them, did he hit them, did he torture them, did he force them to admit that they started the fire? He didn't do anything to them. MR RAMAILA Well, he was talking very loud in the first place, but because I did not understand him when he was talking to them I only heard the three answering back that they were not there. They don't know where that fire emanated from and they will therefore not be able to account to that incident. MR MALAN What language did they speak? MR RAMAILA He was speaking Afrikaans. MR MALAN And in what language did they answer him? MR RAMAILA They were answering back in Zulu. MR MALAN But he didn't speak Zulu. MR RAMAILA Yes. MR MALAN Did he - did the farmer speak Zulu? MR RAMAILA No, he was not speaking Zulu. MR MALAN Do you think he understood his workers when they replied to him in Zulu? MR RAMAILA That's what I think. MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. Lastly, Mr Ramaila. I wish to put it to you that you killed Mr Rudman and robbed him of his items solely for personal gain and that you are just a criminal who is taking this Committee for a ride. What are you saying to this? MR RAMAILA Well, I will not agree to what you are saying. I did all what I did because I wanted to further the mission of the organisation. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO None, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO ADV SIGODI How long did it take you when you walked from the - where the taxi dropped you to the farm? What is the distance? MR RAMAILA Well, that was quite a distance or a long distance. I will be able to give an estimation accurately so. ADV SIGODI How long did it take you to walk there? Twenty minutes, thirty minutes, one hour? MR RAMAILA It took me quite some time, but not very long time because I arrived on the farm before everyone retired in the house, that is go to bed. ADV SIGODI Did you know if the farmer lived alone or if he lived with somebody else? MR RAMAILA According to the information that was furnished to me I knew that he was only the - with the workers and the workers lived outside or stayed outside the main house in their respective bedrooms. I knew that he was the only one in the house and the wife was not even there as well as the kids. ADV SIGODI And who gave you this information? MR RAMAILA I got this information from Sipho and Santos. ADV SIGODI Why did they tell you this that he was staying all by himself? MR RAMAILA They were sort of explaining to me the situation because he was the person who was very violent, especially coming to his family or his wife to say. Often times he tortured, abused his family. ADV SIGODI Okay. Did they tell you - did they give you this information because they knew that you were going to kill him? MR RAMAILA Well, the did not know that I will kill him. They were only telling me that because I held them. I enlisted help to them at that particular time. Now I also still wanted to help them further, but then they opposed or they disagreed with me that - they refused me helping them all the way to drive them straight to the gate because they told me what will happen subsequently should the white man or the farmer see that they've been dropped by somebody else right at the gate. ADV SIGODI Lastly can you give - do you know how old Patrick Mohale was? How old was Patrick Mohale? MR RAMAILA I don't know his age. ADV SIGODI Was he older than you? MR RAMAILA Yes. ADV SIGODI Can you describe him? What were his features like? MR RAMAILA He was heavily built and light in complexion. ADV SIGODI Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You say you're a member of the PAC. MR RAMAILA Yes, I am a member. CHAIRPERSON Your card? MR RAMAILA Well, I don't have the card here. CHAIRPERSON Where is it? MR RAMAILA For now. CHAIRPERSON Where is the card? MR RAMAILA Well, I was awaiting the visit of the card. CHAIRPERSON You have never received a membership card? MR RAMAILA Well, I never had one as I already said that I'd just been recruited by Patrick Mohale. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm not talking about then. I'm talking about now. Where is your... MR RAMAILA As I said I was in the preparation of getting one. Patrick was the one - was the key person here as to my joining and my becoming a full member and being recognised also by being given a card. He was the key person behind this still. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever attend a PAC honorary membership meeting or branch meeting? MR RAMAILA Well, yes. I remember in 1990 I went to the meeting that was held in ...(indistinct) a meeting that is. CHAIRPERSON Only one meeting you went to? MR RAMAILA Yes, just one meeting because I was a supporter and ... CHAIRPERSON How much did you pay for membership? MR RAMAILA: As I had already said earlier on that I was still awaiting information that could be forthcoming from Patrick as Patrick was the key person to this. CHAIRPERSON So you were never a member of PAC up till today. MR RAMAILA ...(no audible answer) CHAIRPERSON From 1990 till today, almost ten years, you've never been a member of the PAC. MR RAMAILA Well, I hear what you say, but I still maintain the fact that I was a supporter of PAC and I liked it so much. CHAIRPERSON Ja, well you may have been a supporter up till now, but you were never a member. MR RAMAILA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And when did you find out that Patrick was dead? MR RAMAILA I only learnt that in 1992 that he's dead. CHAIRPERSON So 1992 he died. MR RAMAILA I wouldn't know. Well, he died in 1991 because I only learnt in 1992 that Patrick had since died in the OD prison. I only heard that it happened in 1991 although I don't know the facts relating to this. CHAIRPERSON When were you arrested? MR RAMAILA I was arrested on the 8th of August 1991. CHAIRPERSON Were you on bail before you were sentenced? MR RAMAILA No, I was refused bail. I was never granted bail. CHAIRPERSON And since then you have never made an attempt to get formal membership of PAC. MR RAMAILA As I'm in prison the very prison I'm based in is maximum prison. Now there I had never had an opportunity to meet with other comrades from Daveton, seeing as I'm from Daveton, that they could now fulfil every detail with regards to the membership. CHAIRPERSON You see there's one thing that troubles me with your evidence and your political position and I want to put it to you. I put it to you in an attempt to give you an opportunity to deal with it. You were never a member of the PAC. It is a known fact that APLA is a military wing of PAC. Yet you come to testify here that a commander of APLA sent a person who is not even a member or the PAC on a mission and tells him all the secrets, if you want to call it secrets, of how APLA works. And that's not even to a formal member of the PAC. I have trouble with that because in previous cases we were told and I accepted that the PAC were never that reckless. Security in APLA was of importance. Have you got any comment about that? MR RAMAILA Well, the only thing that remains for me to say is that I'm the one who told Patrick that I will love to be an APLA member or PAC. This is what enabled him to furnish me with all the kind of information which he did. CHAIRPERSON You held the PAC so close to your heart and over a period of two years you never tried to get formal membership of PAC on your own. You only attended one branch meeting of this organisation that you love like this. MR RAMAILA Well, as I said it was at that time when I started bothering myself about being a member of PAC. Hence upon meeting with Patrick I informed him how much I loved this organisation and he was the key person to see that I get the full membership. CHAIRPERSON Well, he didn't. Up till 1992 you had not received this membership card or information that you were now a member of the PAC. Leave that - tell me - carry on. Why are you making application for amnesty? MR RAMAILA It is because I discovered that this Truth and Reconciliation Commission is about the truth and the forgiveness and reconciliation. This is why I burdened myself about following it up to this point in time. CHAIRPERSON Who do you want to reconcile with? MR RAMAILA Please may you repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Who are you wanting to reconcile with? MR RAMAILA Well, my wish is to reconcile or was to reconcile with the people especially the kids of the late or the deceased, the wife. People like that. And as we all know that at the time and also the operation I carried resulted to one person being killed. Now this is my case and this is the people I would like to reconcile with because of what happened as a result of my actions. CHAIRPERSON So if they reconcile with you you don't mind then that the - to stay in jail to serve the sentence. As long as they reconcile with you and you are able to reconcile with them. MR RAMAILA Well, the most important thing here is that I am looking forward to get out of jail because the situation which I'm in is a very pathetic one because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm sure. MR RAMAILA ... in 19.. - around '88 my father passed away and my mother is the only one who is in the house and she's not working. Not even a pension is she receiving. Now she has a problem with her feet or legs and only during the times when she feels better is she able to go work. And it takes about six months before she pays me a visit in prison. This is pathetic. CHAIRPERSON Isn't that your main reason for making the application to get out your pathetic position - situation and that you are using the PAC and the Truth & Reconciliation Commission to attain that? MR RAMAILA Well, no that is not the case. This is the situation I'm only advancing to the Commission so they may as well be aware of it. This pertains my background. But in true fact all what I did, I did knowing very well that this is done by a person who has an objective or a certain objective or an aim for that matter. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you. ADV SIGODI May I just ask one question. Just one question. This PAC meeting which you attended in 1990 who was addressing it? MR RAMAILA The one permanent figure at that particular meeting that I knew was Maxwell Matsevanane. ADV SIGODI And where was this meeting held? MR RAMAILA The meeting was held in Twilight Section one of the sections in Khatlahong or Spruit. There was a party there. This is where that meeting took place. CHAIRPERSON Did you say a party? MR RAMAILA I said - or I beg your pardon. It was a park and kids will play there and this is where the meeting took place. I beg your pardon. It was the interpreter's fault. It was not projected clear. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. You're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, that's the evidence of the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Do you intend to call any witnesses? MS MTANGA No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON There are no ...(intervention) MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, they are not family members who have attended. As I've indicated before that we could not locate them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that seems to bring us to the end of the evidence. Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any argument? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. I will be brief, Chairperson, and to the point. Chairperson, I wouldn't like to waste the time of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Before you - I appreciate what your position is and I'm not going to expect you to embarrass yourself. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You do what you need to do. MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT Chairperson, I think there is enough evidence before the Committee which has been adduced which will enable the Committee to make a fair and a just decision in this matter. Having said that I would like just to highlight certain points regarding certain aspects with regard to the operations of APLA as I have indicated mostly I'm representing PAC and APLA cases. According to them and everything operational structures that also myself it's the first time I must concede that I had one an incident of this nature. And also that there are different - they operate on a different platter. There is a repossession unit and they're also an offensive unit which they do totally different things. So if a repossession unit or an offensive unit is going to do a work of the repossession unit an authority has to be given for that, they can't do both of them. So that's why I'm saying look, it was the first time but I wanted just to highlight that for the Committee to be able to reach a fair and a just decision on this matter. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn for 10 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MACHINE SWITCHED OFF INTERPRETER Excuse me. Could I have your attention please. We have adjourned the hearings until tomorrow morning at nine thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS