amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-01 JOHANNESBURG 2 NEPHTAL MANANA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53661&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9908310902_jhb_990901jh.htm MS MTANGA Chairperson, the next matter will be the matter of Mashigo, Manane and Magana. Chairperson, before we commence with that matter, could I be given an opportunity to speak with the families, the Mkhwanazi family in the matter that we've just concluded? CHAIRPERSON Excuse me? MS MTANGA Can I be given an opportunity to consult with the victims in the matter that we have just concluded? CHAIRPERSON Five minutes? MS MTANGA Five minutes will be enough for me Chairperson. Thank you very much. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. Before we commence with this matter I would like to indicate to the Committee that the Correctional Services Officials have got a problem with waiting up until this matter is heard, because - that is Ntoka matter and Ntoka is in prison. And they feel that it's time for them to leave and they can't stay here. CHAIRPERSON Why? MS MTANGA Because if they stay beyond four they will be working overtime and they won't be getting paid for that. And that their position is that they want to leave now. CHAIRPERSON And what if we don't release Ntoka now? What happens? Do they just abandon...? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'm not sure that we should call one of them to answer your questions. MR MSINGA I am Harry Msinga. I am working at Morabe Prison. CHAIRPERSON What is your rank? MR MSINGA I am a Correctional Officer, Grade 1. That is a warrant officer according to the previous categories. CHAIRPERSON How do I address you now? MR MSINGA You can just call me Mr Msinga. CHAIRPERSON Now Mr Msinga, I believe you have a problem today. MR MSINGA That's correct Chairperson, I do have a problem. CHAIRPERSON What seems to be the problem? MR MSINGA At four o'clock we are supposed to be at Morabe. I have also two prisoners who went to the court and others went to hospital. So I was the first person to come here to bring this prisoner here, so I've been here for the whole day and there are other children that I have to fetch in Benoni to take them home. So I was just asking and requesting this Committee whether we can't be able to finish in time. CHAIRPERSON You see, when we sit in the Commission and Courts in general, the general times are we sit from nine to half past four. On many occasions we as Judges and members of the Committee sit beyond half past four in order to get this work done. If it needs the assistance of prison officials, then I would appreciate their co-operation in the matter. Have you got any comments about that? MR MSINGA I do not disagree with you that you need our co-operation, but I was requesting if, because we have been here the whole day, if you can be able to listen to our pleas. CHAIRPERSON But then if I listen and accede to your request I will be finishing work before I'm supposed to finish work. And you may have noticed that certain people are attacking the judges for not working, recently. MR MSINGA No, this is the first time that I hear about that. The only thing that I know is that the Judges always do their work properly. CHAIRPERSON Maybe you should tell the Minister that. But let's be serious. I would have to close this hearing then before time. How do we handle that? And there are people in jail who could possibly be released. And if they're going to be released, one day is too much to be in prison. Do you follow what I'm saying? MR MSINGA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Therefore I'm pleading to you to understand that. I appreciate what your problems are. Last time I sat in the very room, about two months ago, I had similar requests from the officials - I don't know if you were one of them at that time - and I asked them, I acceded on the first day to their request and I asked them to make other arrangements for the following couple of days. I thought that would have been - those arrangements would have carried on till the end of doing the TRC work. I would hope that you don't insist on us stopping earlier than we're supposed to. Would not a couple of phone calls, a few phone calls sort out your problem? MR MSINGA The problem is that I have to go and fetch my kids and they know that I knock off at four o'clock. So they will be waiting for me at home then. That is why I was requesting this. Maybe tomorrow we can start with him. That was just a request that I was making before this Committee. CHAIRPERSON No, no, tomorrow we're finishing. Hopefully long before you need to fetch your children. Is there no way your colleagues can stay here and you can go if you want to? I don't know what arrangements you've made with your commanding officer about it. It's not for me to excuse you. MR MSINGA I am the person who signed for this car that we use to transport the prisoners. CHAIRPERSON So you want us to stop at three o'clock. MR MSINGA I am not saying that you should stop at three. CHAIRPERSON Well, you've got about an hour then to drop, to transport the prisoners, sign them in, sign the car in and go fetch your children in Benoni. Is that not so? MR MSINGA The kids are transported by somebody and he leaves them at work, so they are waiting for me at work. The car that I'm using now is my employer's car. It's not mine. CHAIRPERSON So isn't it possible that you could phone your officer there at work and ask him to look after your children until you come back? In this week it's going to be the last afternoon we're sitting. MR MSINGA I'll try to do so but I just want to know from the Judge what time are we going to finish? CHAIRPERSON Well, we plan to finish this following case in about 45 minutes at most, and then Ntoka we want to listen to his evidence in chief. Then we'll adjourn till tomorrow. MR MSINGA That is fine with me. I will phone my officer and tell him about this. CHAIRPERSON Thanks for your co-operation Sir. MR MSINGA I thank you. MS MTANGA Chairperson, we can continue with the matter of Mashigo, Manane and Magane. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, you mentioned a matter related to the previous case. Has that been sorted out? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. I spoke to Mrs. Mogate and she has left. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Well, for the record I'm Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues to announce themselves on the record and the different representatives. ADV SIGODI I'm Adv Sigodi from the Port Elizabeth Bar. MR MALAN Wynand Malan, TRC Commissioner. MR MOHLABA Booker Mohlaba for the three applicants. I'm from Pretoria, Mohlaba and Moshwana Inc. CHAIRPERSON Can you just spell your name please Sir? MR MOHLABA My first name is spelt B-O-O-K-E-R and my surname is spelt M-O-H-L-A-B-A. CHAIRPERSON Do you pronounce it Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA That's correct Your Worship. Chairperson. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the evidence leader for the Truth Commission. If the Chairperson could allow me to place on record that the victim has not attended the hearing. It has arisen from our investigation that he has left his last known address and despite endeavours to try and locate him we have not succeeded. And we further placed an advert on the newspapers and on the radio to try and have him attend the hearing. But despite all those efforts he has not been able to attend the hearing. CHAIRPERSON I think that's the best we could have done and if there's no response, well there's nothing we can do. Mr Mohlaba, can you proceed please? MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. I would like to call the first applicant, being Nephtal Manana and he likes to give his evidence in English. NEPHTAL MANANA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Mr Manana, you are one of the applicants in this matter. Is that correct? MR MANANA Correct. MR MOHLABA And you are applying for amnesty in respect of an offence of high treason, attempted murder and robbery with aggravating circumstances, is that correct? MR MANANA Correct. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat that? High treason? MR MOHLABA Attempted murder and robbery with aggravating circumstances. Two counts of attempted murder Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON One count of robbery? MR MOHLABA That's correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Anything else? So we've got high treason, two attempted murders and robbery. MR MOHLABA That's correct Chairperson, except to add that these attempted murders and robbery where used where firearms and explosives were used there. And it's just cosmetic because they have indemnity for those offences Chairperson. And the offences in respect of which you are applying for amnesty were committed during or about 4 January 1980 at Soekmekaar. Is that correct. MR MANANA Correct. MR MOHLABA And you're applying for amnesty on the basis that these offences were committed by you with a political objective. Is that correct? MR MANANA Correct. MR MOHLABA Did you during that period - that is during the period January 1980 - belong to any known political organisation and if so, can you tell us the organisation? MR MANANA Yes, I was a member of the African National Congress which I joined in 1976. And then I went... CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba, we've read the papers. We're quite au fait with the facts of the matter. If there are any other matters you want to raise in supplementing these then do so, but it's not necessary to repeat what is in the application. MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. I want to take you to the actual offence which was committed around January 1980. Who was in your company when you committed those offences? MR MANANA It was myself, Nephtal Manana, Sepho Mashigo and Sipho Magane. MR MOHLABA And these people are your co-applicants, that is the second and the third applicant in our papers. Is that correct? MR MANANA Correct. MR MOHLABA Can you explain to the Committee the role which you played? That is why was this offence committed in the first place? MR MANANA It was committed because there were removals in that particular area, around Soekmekaar. And it was... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON What we in the past referred to as illegal removals? MR MANANA Yes. So it was during that period when we were intensifying what we called anti-propaganda. So Soekmekaar was targeted. Because that police station was being used by other police forces to meet there and go and remove our people in that particular area by force. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying they used the police who were involved in these forced removals were using Soekmekaar police station as a base? MR MANANA As a base, yes. MR MOHLABA Yes, continue? MR MANANA Our intention was to support the residents of that particular local area, to show them that the ANC and Umkhonto weSizwe will defend them and support them in their endeavour to remain in the place where they want to move them forcefully. So that operation was taken under those conditions. MR MOHLABA And you were ultimately arrested, convicted and sentenced to death in respect of these offences. Is that correct? MR MANANA Yes. MR MOHLABA Is that correct? MR MANANA Yes. We were arrested in January and sentenced to death in November of 1980. MR MOHLABA Who stood trial? Was it yourself and who else? MR MANANA It was myself, Sepho Mashigo, Sipho - no, I'm sorry. Johnson Luisi. MR MOHLABA And Sipho Magane did not stand trial. Is that correct? MR MANANA Sipho Magane didn't stand trial. CHAIRPERSON In the attack nobody died? MR MOHLABA Nobody died. CHAIRPERSON So your death sentence was in respect of high treason? MR MANANA It was in respect of high treason. MR MOHLABA Is it correct that the three applicants before the Committee today applied for indemnity for prosecution and that's the reason why you were released from custody. Is that correct? MR MANANA That's correct. MR MOHLABA Have you got anything to say to the Committee in support of your application other than what is already on paper? Because the Committee has already indicated that it is au fait with what you have placed on paper. MR MANANA Yes. It's that it should be understood by the Committee that the operation was basically politically motivated. It was not an operation, we took it because we were going to benefit as individuals. But it was an operation to support our communities, to support the struggle of our local people. CHAIRPERSON This whole operation on that police station was a planned attack? MR MANANA Yes, it was a planned attack. CHAIRPERSON Umkhonto weSizwe plan? MR MANANA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were all three of you within a particular unit? MR MANANA We were in the same unit the three of us. CHAIRPERSON Was there a particular name to that unit? MR MANANA No, there was no name. CHAIRPERSON Where were you trained? MR MANANA I was trained in the Soviet Union and Angola. CHAIRPERSON And your colleagues, were they trained? MR MANANA They were also trained. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR MANANA One was trained in Angola - no, two of them were trained in Angola. I'm the only one that was trained in the Soviet Union. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson, that will conclude the evidence in chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON The military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe; the military wing was controlled by a chief of staff. MR MANANA That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Would that person or staff, would that order come from them? MR MANANA It will come generally to the person involved with that particular operation. CHAIRPERSON From where? MR MANANA From the high command structures. CHAIRPERSON In this case who would they communicate with in South Africa? MR MANANA Could you repeat your question again? CHAIRPERSON Who would the high command have communicated with in South Africa? MR MANANA No, he's to communicate with us, people will be ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON With you? MR MANANA Yes. CHAIRPERSON With you? MR MANANA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And where would the instruction come from? MR MANANA The instruction will come to the commander in chief who is responsible for that particular operation. CHAIRPERSON From where? From whom? MR MANANA In this case our commander was Joe Slovo. CHAIRPERSON Outside? MR MANANA Outside yes. CHAIRPERSON So the operation was carried out with full authority? MR MANANA It was carried out with full authority. CHAIRPERSON I just want to clear up something. You said you were indemnified from which offences? MR MANANA We were in prison at Robben Island... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, of these four offences you were indemnified for what? MR MANANA To my understanding we were indemnified for all of them. CHAIRPERSON What do you do now? MR MANANA I'm working. CHAIRPERSON On your own or what? MR MANANA Come again? CHAIRPERSON On your own business or...? MR MANANA No, I'm employed. CHAIRPERSON I want to ask you a question that you may not have thought of. Now that everything seems to be over, given what you've gone through and how you had to live those days, have you overcome the psychological scars of those days? MR MANANA I might say that one has overcome it, because it's very difficult to just convince yourself that you need to forget about what happened to you in the past and move forward. But then it becomes difficult if for instance you didn't undergo any therapy, you know to check whether in 10 years time you'll be the same person as you are. CHAIRPERSON That's precisely why I ask the question. Do you think that would be necessary? To undergo therapy? MR MANANA I think it will be necessary. CHAIRPERSON It doesn't matter how long ago the problems arose? MR MANANA It doesn't because it... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON It stays with you. MR MANANA It stays with you even if you can try and block it, but it will one day it will surface. MR MALAN I may just observe that some treatment by some therapists may leave more scars. CHAIRPERSON You're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED