amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-01 DURBAN 1 NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53667&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99090103_dbn_990901db.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I call N J Vermeulen, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON N J Vermeulen. Please switch on and then please give your full names for the record. NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please sit. Mr Cornelius? EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, handed in a proper application for amnesty in accordance with Section 18 of the Act, is this correct? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS At the time of these events you were an employee as defined in Section 20(2)(a) and 20(2)(f) of the Act of Reconciliation, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You were then affiliated to the unit which was known as Vlakplaas, Section C1, and as appears from the additional bundles and also the activities of Vlakplaas. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS At the time of this incident I understand that you were a Warrant Officer. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You confirm the contents of your amnesty application? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You at all times acted ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, just a moment. Whoever else is in possession of one of those things, won't you just switch it off. Sorry, Mr Cornelius. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. You at all times acted strictly within the mandate of your commander, Col de Kock. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Just to make it clear, your application for amnesty at this stage is for the illegal possession of a firearm, an AK47, is this correct? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You have not applied for conspiracy to murder or something to that effect? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You at all times acted within the scope of your duty. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Can you please shortly tell us what happened, you received orders to accompany the Vlakplaas unit to Natal, on the request of the Durban Security unit. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you have any knowledge of the aim of this request? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Could you please tell the Committee. MR VERMEULEN At the time of this request Durban was reasonably active and there were several Security Police officers who had already been killed and a request was lodged that the Vlakplaas unit should go to Durban branch to help to try and find the people who had killed the police officers. MR CORNELIUS Was this an anti-insurgency order? MR VERMEULEN This is correct. MR CORNELIUS Was any instruction given to you at that stage or even later that you had to come and kill the people? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Good. If we look at your application on page 75 and in the first paragraph you say that you had already been busy working at Vlakplaas, is this correct? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Good. Who accompanied you to the CR Swart Police Station, can you remember this? MR VERMEULEN We drove in a group, it was Willie Nortje, myself, Steve Bosch and Frank McCarter. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive certain instructions to infiltrate the area? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Could you please tell us what happened that specific evening. MR VERMEULEN Are you talking about the Chesterville incident? MR CORNELIUS The Chesterville incident. MR VERMEULEN That specific evening we deployed in a group. MR CORNELIUS Can you please tell us who "we" were? MR VERMEULEN It was myself and Willie and Frank McCarter and Steve Bosch, these were the white people, and all the black people. I cannot remember them by name, but Simon Radebe and Aubrey and Shosha were some of the members that I can remember, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS The other members, if you put it this way, were actually the askaris, is this not so? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Where did you go to? MR VERMEULEN We then drove to a police station or an army base, I'm not completely sure anymore, where a certain army officer then pointed out to us that Chesterville had been a flashpoint and that we could try to infiltrate there. MR CORNELIUS It has already been put that Willie Nortje and the other three white members had gone to the station, is this correct? MR VERMEULEN This is correct. MR CORNELIUS The askaris apparently did not go along. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And then you returned to the group, what happened then? MR VERMEULEN We instructed them there, Willie instructed them that they had to go into the Chesterville area and that they had to try and gain information or try and contact the so-called comrades or SDU units. MR CORNELIUS In other words you should infiltrate, identify and report back. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Where did you wait? MR VERMEULEN We waited at a graveyard if I can remember it correctly. MR CORNELIUS And this group of askaris, did they report back to you? MR VERMEULEN They went back and they came back with the request that they want a showpiece as a weapon, and Willie at that stage had given them an AK47 as a result of their request. MR CORNELIUS I refer you to paragraph 2 of your amnesty application on page 75, and there's another typographical error "East block weapons were given to give the ANC members reason." This is then the showpiece. MR VERMEULEN This is then the showpiece, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Do you ask this to be amended? Would you like this to be changed to a show weapon, showpiece weapon? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS Did this showpiece then get handed over to Simon Radebe? MR VERMEULEN Yes, an AK was handed over by Willie Nortje. MR CORNELIUS Just one? MR VERMEULEN Yes, just one, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And what happened then? MR VERMEULEN The members then left again and if I can remember correctly we moved to a place close to a bridge and we waited there. MR CORNELIUS Then what happened? MR VERMEULEN After a while a shooting - we heard a shooting. Simon returned to us and said that a shooting had taken place. Myself and Willie and the white people got into the vehicle. I think Willie gave instructions that they had to go to CR Swart Police Station. MR CORNELIUS Was Simon Radebe on foot or was he in a vehicle? MR VERMEULEN They were in a vehicle, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And they drove away from the bridge in a vehicle. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you at that stage then report back to the Commanding Officer, de Kock? MR VERMEULEN We went back to CR Swart where we found Col de Kock in his sleeping quarters and he was busy sleeping and Willie then reported this incident to him, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS When Simon Radebe reported to you, what were your impressions, that the situation had gotten out of hand or what had happened? MR VERMEULEN He did not report the incident to me personally, he reported it to Willie Nortje and he said that a shooting had taken place and that people had been killed, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did he indicate that they acted in self-defence or not? MR VERMEULEN The feeling that I got was that they had been shot on and that they returned fire. MR CORNELIUS You heard the evidence of Nofomela who gave evidence this morning, that he was at the scene by the bridge, do you have any comment on this? MR VERMEULEN I cannot remember his presence there, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Was Col de Kock at the bridge? MR VERMEULEN No, he was not there at all. MR CORNELIUS And Simon and the askaris also did not go into Chesterville on foot. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson, they didn't. MR CORNELIUS Did you ever make a statement about this incident to the police? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you at any stage give evidence at an inquiry? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Had there at all in your presence been planning beforehand that people would be murdered that specific evening? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You also never received an order to this effect? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you expect that people would be shot dead that evening? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Where did you think that this AK47 came from? MR VERMEULEN As far as I knew, the AK had been received from Security Headquarters' safe and this is how it arrived at Willie, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You at some stage also thought that the weapon could possibly have come from Vlakplaas itself. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS The people who had been acted against as far as the infiltration is concerned, were they originally ANC or what political affiliation did they have? MR VERMEULEN According to my knowledge they were from the ANC, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Was the whole action launched and the whole operation by C10, against the so-called enemy, was it aimed at infiltrating the so-called enemy? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Had it also been your thought? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And you then apply for amnesty - or let me just be complete. You did not receive any reward? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You also did not expect a reward? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You did not have any ill will or malice against these members that were attacked that evening? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You accordingly apply for amnesty for the possible illegal possession of a firearm. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Just to be complete, although you had knowledge of the weapon, who handed the weapon to Simon Radebe? MR VERMEULEN Willie Nortje, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS But you were present. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And at the stage when Steve Bosch - let me rather ask you this. Which four white people had there been? MR VERMEULEN It was myself, McCarter, Steve Bosch and Willie Nortje, Sir. MR CORNELIUS At the stage when you were waiting at the bridge, was Vermeulen present? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Mr Ramawele, questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMAWELE Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, tell me, I heard that you - in your testimony there is nowhere where Mr de Kock features in this Chesterville incident. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE What was your rank at the time when this incident occurred? MR VERMEULEN Warrant Officer, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE You were working under the direct instruction of Mr de Kock, is that not so? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE At Vlakplaas and also in Durban you were under the command of Mr de Kock. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Do you know with whom Mr de Kock went to Durban? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE So you only saw Mr de Kock after he had arrived in Durban? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE You cannot dispute the fact that - you cannot dispute the evidence of Mr Nofomela that he went with Mr de Kock to Durban therefore? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Now in Durban the discussion relating to the infiltration, who gave the members the instruction to go and make the infiltration? MR VERMEULEN I do not understand the question. Was this with the Chesterville incident or in general? MR RAMAWELE I'm talking about the Chesterville incident, Mr Vermeulen. MR VERMEULEN No-one specifically gave an order that Chesterville specifically had to be the target area. Nortje and myself as I've said, had gone to the army base where they indicated to us that Chesterville was a flashpoint and Willie Nortje decided that he would deploy the group there, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Where did Mr Nortje decide that? Where was it, in Vlakplaas or in Durban? MR VERMEULEN Here in Durban itself, at the police station or the army base, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE At that time when Mr Nortje made that decision where was Mr de Kock? MR VERMEULEN Mr de Kock was at that stage - I did not see him, but I assume that he was at the quarters at CR Swart. MR RAMAWELE You are not able to say whether Mr de Kock was part of that particular decision that was taken? MR VERMEULEN Mr de Kock was not at all present at that decision to go to Chesterville, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Mr de Kock should have known that Chesterville was a boiling point at that time, not so? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, he could have known this, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Could he have known or should he have known? MR VERMEULEN I believe that he should have known. MR RAMAWELE And tell me, the - and also, Mr de Kock should have known that there were police officers who were killed in Durban, he should have known that. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE And now when a decision is taken to infiltrate the UDF or the ANC in Chesterville, Mr de Kock is not there. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Was he asleep at that time when the decision was taken? MR VERMEULEN I cannot say, Mr Chairperson, I was not present with Mr de Kock. MR RAMAWELE Okay. So you say Mr Nortje now made a decision that an infiltration has to be done? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE And who was to make the infiltration? MR VERMEULEN The team that moved out with us, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE So you were part of the - were you part of the group that went to Durban, or let me put it this way. Did the Vlakplaas members who went to Durban, did they come in groups or did they all, except Mr de Kock, did they all just arrive in Durban at once? MR VERMEULEN If I can remember correctly, then the whole team arrived at the same time at CR Swart, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE And who of the members were supposed to go and do the infiltration? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can remember, if this is the Chesterville incident, then it was Simon Radebe, Shosha and another black lady, I've forgotten her name, I think Aubrey Magade and other people who I can't remember immediately, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE And according to you they did make the infiltration? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE They came back to report that it was successful? MR VERMEULEN No, I would not say that they returned and said that it was a success, they returned and if I can remember correctly, they said to Willie that they find it difficult to gain the people's confidence because they feel a little bit suspect and they - and he asked if there isn't a weapon of the east block origin that they can show to these people to put them more at their ease, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Is it your evidence that the members did not report that the infiltration was a success? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Did they want the weapon to demonstrate their supposed links with the ANC? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE And after that, it is then that Mr Nortje then gave the AK47 to Radebe? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Where was Mr de Kock at that time? MR VERMEULEN I would not know, Sir, but he was definitely not at the scene with us. MR RAMAWELE So again when the weapon was given to Radebe, for them to go back to the township, Mr de Kock according to you wasn't there? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE It seems to me that Mr de Kock came to Durban on that particular day to come and do nothing. MR VERMEULEN I would not be able to answer this, maybe you have to ask him yourself, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE I'm saying so because he knew that the situation was volatile, police officers were killed, when a decision is taken to infiltrate he is not there, when a decision is taken again to give a weapon to some members to go back, again he's not there. That's why I'm saying so. MR VERMEULEN I believe that you have to ask Mr de Kock that question himself, I cannot answer that, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE But Mr de Kock was truly committed to his cause of eliminating the opponents, not so? You know it. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Now you say that they went into the - now when the weapon was given to Radebe, did you - are you saying that Radebe and the other members went into Chesterville and you also followed suit? MR VERMEULEN No, we did not follow them, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE I see. So Radebe actually, he went to Chesterville with the weapon? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Was he with the very same members he was when he was going to make the infiltration? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE After he had gone, where did he go? MR VERMEULEN From there we moved away and we waited for them under a bridge, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE The weapon was given at the police station, at CR Swart Police Station, not so? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Where was it given? MR VERMEULEN It was just outside Chesterville we had handed it over. MR RAMAWELE So when Mr Radebe came to say "The people do not believe us", where were you at that stage? MR VERMEULEN I was together with Mr Nortje in the vehicle that was waiting outside Chesterville, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Was it at the bridge? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson, it was at a graveyard. MR RAMAWELE And after Mr Radebe had gone back with the firearm, where did you wait? MR VERMEULEN Then we moved, we went to a bridge and we waited for them at the bridge, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE So what you are saying is that the first time when they went to do the infiltration you were at the graveyard, when they came back you went to the bridge? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Initially why did you wait at the graveyard? MR VERMEULEN I do not know, Mr Chairperson, I was not in command of this operation, it was Willie Nortje and I also do not know that area of Chesterville. MR RAMAWELE You never asked why you were supposed to wait at the graveyard? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE And later on did you know why you had to wait at the bridge? MR VERMEULEN I think that they decided that we should move, that we shouldn't be staying at the same place for too long. This is what I assume, I don't know what the real reason is. Mr Nortje would be able to provide this reason much better, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Now after - according to you, after Radebe had - if Radebe was able to successfully convince the UDF that he was a member of the ANC, what would he have done, Mr Radebe? MR VERMEULEN I do not know. MR CORNELIUS Mr Chairman, I don't follow the question. MR RAMAWELE Are you - pardon, what is your answer? MR VERMEULEN I do not know what he would have done, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE So you are saying the situation in Durban is volatile, police officers are killed, a police officer from Vlakplaas goes to Chesterville to infiltrate the UDF and if he succeeds you don't know what he'll do? Is that what you're saying? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Does it make sense under those political conditions at that time? MR VERMEULEN Mr Chairperson, I was not at the scene where Mr Radebe had been, so I cannot answer on behalf of him, I cannot speculate what he would have done if he had been successful with these actions. MR RAMAWELE In other words what you are saying is that it is possible that if Mr Radebe succeeded in convincing the people that he was a member of the UDF, he could simply have come back to CR Swart and say "I succeeded", without arresting them, doing anything? MR VERMEULEN I do not know, I would not be able to answer this. MR RAMAWELE I put it to you that it is highly improbable that under those conditions, if what you are saying is the truth, that Radebe would simply just have done the infiltration. I put it to you that that is highly improbable. MR VERMEULEN If I have to speculate then I would say that if Radebe could infiltrate there, then he would have tried to identify people, then he would have tried to obtain names and addresses, the sort of normal infiltration, and if there had been someone who would have been worth the effort, then he would have tried to arrest this person and he would have brought this person back for questioning, Chairperson, but this is merely speculation on my behalf. MR RAMAWELE And where was Geoff Bosigo at that time? MR VERMEULEN I do not know, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Do you remember Geoff Bosigo being part of the group that waited at the bridge? MR VERMEULEN I cannot remember that Geoff Bosigo was present there, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Do you remember Geoff Bosigo having come to Durban at that time, during those times? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Now what were you supposed to do at the bridge? You are waiting at the bridge, what are you supposed to do? MR VERMEULEN We were there to give support to the people if any problems arose, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE What kind of problems? MR VERMEULEN Any problems, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE I see. Now, are you saying if they are shot at you would have come to their assistance? MR VERMEULEN At that stage we did not know exactly where they were in the township, so it would have been difficult for us to reach them, but if a shooting had taken place as had indeed taken place, then they would have come back themselves. If after a while they did not return we would have gone to go and look for them, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE You did not know the township very well, is that so? MR VERMEULEN I did not know it at all, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE You did not know where Radebe and his team were going, you did not know where they went to, not so? - precisely in Chesterville. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE So in actual fact, if they got shot in Chesterville, you wouldn't have been able to go there and assist because you didn't know where they went, not so? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Therefore, when you were at the bridge you couldn't have assisted them because you didn't know were they went to and you didn't even know the place. So there - you were sitting there doing nothing and you couldn't have assisted them. Now tell us the real reason why were you at the bridge. MR VERMEULEN We sat there and we waited for them, Chairperson. They went into Chesterville as I said, us white people, if one can call it that, could not go into Chesterville, it would have been very suspicious, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE But Geoff Bosigo is a black person and he never went into Chesterville. MR VERMEULEN I would not be able to say because I did not see Geoff Bosigo there, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE I put it to you that Geoff Bosigo was at the bridge where Mr Nofomela was and that that's where they were waiting for the people who had gone on foot into the township. MR VERMEULEN They did not go in there per foot, they went in there with the bus, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE After this incident - you say after this incident this matter was reported to Maj de Kock. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Why was it reported to him? MR VERMEULEN Because he is the Commander of Section C1, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE But he never gave instructions that people should go there. MR VERMEULEN The instructions had already been given in Pretoria that we had to go to Durban and we could work in the Durban area as it suited us, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE So you want the hearing to believe that a decision was taken to infiltrate and subsequently to take a weapon into Chesterville and after the shooting incident, only then was Maj de Kock given the information. Is that what you want the hearing to believe? MR VERMEULEN What I want to say is the information had been conveyed to Mr de Kock after the shooting incident. The planning from the police station before we went into Chesterville the first time and then up to the shooting, of this Mr de Kock knew nothing. The first time that he had any knowledge was when Willie Nortje arrived at CR Swart and reported to him that a shooting had taken place in Chesterville, Mr Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE And Mr Willie Nortje was under the command of Maj de Kock. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE Yes. I put it to you that your version of the events is far from the truth. MR VERMEULEN Mr Chairperson, I was there, I have nothing to hide and this is what I want to give evidence to. MR RAMAWELE I've got no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Ramawele. Mr Hugo, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen in saying, and you must help me if I'm wrong, you were also a State witness against Mr de Kock in his criminal trial, not so? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR HUGO You testified about various charges against Mr de Kock during this trial. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR HUGO And is it so that on the basis of your evidence that because of that, Mr de Kock was found guilty and he was convicted. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR HUGO And therefore you applied for amnesty in respect of a whole series of offences in which you were involved during your involvement with Vlakplaas. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR HUGO And so it is that during this range of offences for which you've asked for amnesty, Mr de Kock's name appears very prominently. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR HUGO He was the person who gave the instructions and he was the main actor in all these operations. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HUGO And not at one stage did you hesitate or try to avoid from the fact to involve Mr de Kock in these operations and you said exactly what the part he played in these operations. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR HUGO So I accept that the Attorney-General approached you when you were to give evidence against Mr de Kock in the criminal case, and that they also thoroughly questioned you regarding these activities you were involved in, to complete the charge sheet against Mr de Kock. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR HUGO And I accept that you gave all the information that you had because you knew that you can obtain a 204 indemnity regarding the Criminal Procedure Act, and because of that you had to make a full disclosure. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR HUGO Did you tell the Attorney-General that an offence was committed in Chesterville? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR HUGO Did you tell them that they had to prosecute de Kock, because he was guilty of an offence? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR HUGO And was it only because he was not involved in an offence regarding this incident? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HUGO When you came from Pretoria to Durban, you were instructed to obtain information regard who were involved in killing security policemen in Durban. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR HUGO Is it correct to say that the whole Vlakplaas contingent was sent to Durban? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR HUGO And to the best of your knowledge, this Vlakplaas contingent was divided into various groups, the white members were the group leaders and every group was allocated a few askaris to assist them. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR HUGO And is it correct to say that Mr de Kock as the Commanding Officer of Vlakplaas, was only the co-ordinator because many of these groups were sent to the field and then they reported back to him from time to time? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR HUGO Is it also correct - is it correct rather, that the groups who were sent into the field operated on their own initiative because they had to identify where the flashpoints were and to determine which information they could gather? MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR HUGO So Mr de Kock never told "You to go to Chesterville, there is the problem"? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR HUGO And it's possible that at the same time, or at the same time when the Chesterville incident took place other groups for example, we acting in kwaMashu or in Umlazi or in Lamontville? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR HUGO Then I want to put it to you that regarding Mr Radebe's version - and I want to say here right from the beginning he is a bit uncertain about this, but his version as he remembers that is that they did not first go into Chesterville, then talk to the victims and were then asked to give a weapon as a so-called showpiece. As he recollects it, weapons were given to them right from the beginning and by that I mean 1 AK and handgrenades, that they went with these weapons into Chesterville right from the beginning. MR VERMEULEN I will not dispute that, but as far as I can remember I can remember the AK47 handed by Nortje to Radebe. The other could be possible. I was not there all the time when Willie Nortje informed the people. MR HUGO And you addressed this aspect, but as far as you can remember there was no previous planning that people had to be killed. MR VERMEULEN Nee, onder geen omstandighede nie, Meneer. MR HUGO En trouens, die feit dat daar 'n skietery plaasgevind het, het eintlik maar as 'n groot verassing en tot 'n mate 'n skok gekom. MR VERMEULEN Dit is korrek, Mnr die Voorsitter. TYPED IN AFRIKAANS AS THERE WAS NO ENGLISH INTERPRETATION MR HUGO And when you reported at the CR Swart - let me first ask you, what time did you report? MR VERMEULEN I'm not sure about the time, but I think it was late that evening, it was between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock. MR HUGO You have already testified that Mr de Kock was in the sleeping quarters, and I accept that he was woken up, what was his reaction when he was told there was a shooting incident? MR VERMEULEN Mr de Kock got up, I think he contacted the security officer, Col Andy and they went back to the scene that same night. MR HUGO What I'm trying to say it, was Mr de Kock surprised, was he shocked or did it seem as if he expected that? MR VERMEULEN He was very surprised, he did not expect that. MR HUGO And I see you are saying in your affidavit, which is part of the amnesty application, that Mr de Kock informed Col Andy Taylor, you suspect that he informed him because Taylor was also there. If you mention that, does it mean after this incident? MR VERMEULEN Yes, that is correct. MR HUGO So is it your evidence that after you'd reported back to de Kock, he and you suspect, Taylor, went back to the scene. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR HUGO And at what time did that happen? MR VERMEULEN It's difficult to say, but it was early that morning, between 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock that morning. MR HUGO I've got no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you, Mr Hugo. Mr Shezi? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SHEZI Thank you, Mr Chairman. So Mr Vermeulen, you are saying this whole Chesterville incident was Mr Willie Nortje's initiative? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, this was not on our initiative. As I've already said we went to the police station or the army bases, there we asked where the flashpoints were because we did not know the Durban environment very well. MR SHEZI You went to Chesterville Police Station in particular to find out where the Durban flashpoints were, is that what you are saying? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI Why pick on Chesterville to find out about flashpoints in Durban generally? MR VERMEULEN Chesterville we found out was a flashpoint. MR SHEZI I'm confused now. You said you went to Chesterville to find out about flashpoints in Durban, so in other words when you went to Chesterville you did not know what was happening in Durban, you went to Chesterville to find out about flashpoints in Durban. And my question is, why did you pick on Chesterville in particular to find out about flashpoints in Durban. MR VERMEULEN I understood that wrongly. At that police station or army base there was a centre where all the areas in Durban were indicated on a map. A certain army officer indicated the flashpoints on that map because we did not know what was happening in Durban and the environment, and then he indicated that Chesterville was the place which was a big flashpoint and we moved in that direction. MR SHEZI Your moving to Chesterville as a flashpoint, what were you going to do there, what were you hoping to achieve? MR VERMEULEN We sent the group there to see whether they could obtain information regarding the various groups and also the people responsible for the murder on the security policemen in the vicinity. MR SHEZI The security policemen which were killed in Durban, as you said earlier on in your evidence-in-chief, where about in Durban were they killed, was it kwaMashu, Umlazi, Claremont, where? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI But you went to Chesterville hoping to find information about the Security Police which were killed. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman, because Chesterville was a flashpoint and they said we should start there. It just happened by chance that we started at Chesterville, it could have been some or other flashpoint. The people just decided that Chesterville was the place where most activities were taking place. MR SHEZI Which people decided? MR VERMEULEN It's the people we consulted at the army base at the police station and those people who indicated on the map where the flashpoints were. MR SHEZI Do you remember any particular person at the army base whom you contacted? MR VERMEULEN I think it was the person second-in-charge, he was a Major or a Lieutenant, I'm not sure anymore. I can't remember his name. MR SHEZI At the time when you were told about flashpoints in Durban, who was present? Was Willie Nortje present, was Mr de Kock present? MR VERMEULEN Mr de Kock was not present, Chairperson, only Nortje was there, I myself and the white members. MR SHEZI Mr de Kock was the Commander of the C10 Vlakplaas unit which had been requested to come to Durban to combat this killing of the Security Branch policemen, isn't it? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR SHEZI Yet he was not there during the briefing of what exactly the Vlakplaas C unit has asked for to come, he was not in that briefing. Would you find that strange? This was a very important briefing. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman, he was only - the whole unit was here as I've already testified and he had the overall command to look after everybody's interests. MR SHEZI What I'm saying to you is, he was the Commander of Vlakplaas C unit, the very same unit which had been asked specifically to come and combat among other things, killing of the Security Branch policemen in Durban. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR SHEZI And this very briefing which you are talking about, at which some Commander or some Captain at the military army base told you about flashpoints, was exactly what the C Vlakplaas unit came for in Durban and as the Commander he was not there. Isn't it strange? MR VERMEULEN This isn't strange. As I've already said, he was the overall person in command, he can't be on duty for 24 hours and that was why we divided into various groups and he had the overall command. MR SHEZI I'm not talking about being on duty 24 hours or being - for Mr de Kock to be present everywhere, I'm talking about the initial briefing, very important briefing to which the C Vlakplaas unit was summoned to come here in Durban. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR SHEZI And as the commander of that unit he was not there. MR VERMEULEN It was not necessary for him to be there, Mr Chairman, because there were various groups as I've already said, one could have worked in Lamontville or somewhere else, I don't know all the names, but we can't expect Mr de Kock to divide himself into two or three parts so that he could be at every information session. We worked in various groups, that is how we operated. MR SHEZI So the decision to go to Chesterville in particular, how did it come about? MR VERMEULEN I've already testified, we went to the army base or the police station and on the map they indicated Chesterville as a flashpoint. That's why we went there, for no other reason. If they said Lamontville or wherever, we would have gone there. Chesterville was the place indicated then, there was no specific reason why we started there. It was a flashpoint. MR SHEZI The security policemen that were killed in Durban, do you know in which part of Durban were they killed? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI Yet the purpose - okay, I'm not going to ask that anymore. You have applied only for being in possession of an AK47 and not the conspiracy to murder. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI Just tell this Commission, this being in possession of an AK, at what stage did you possess it and for how long, how did you come in contact with it, where and when? MR VERMEULEN The AK47 was in the vehicle we were travelling with. MR SHEZI You knew there was an AK47 in the vehicle? MR VERMEULEN No, not specifically when we came down from Vlakplaas. MR SHEZI At what stage did you know that there was an AK47 involved in this whole episode? MR VERMEULEN When Willie handed the AK47 to Mr Radebe. MR SHEZI You did not touch the AK47 or take it to somebody and give it to somebody? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI So what exactly are you applying for in connection with this AK47? You are not aware it was in the vehicle when you drove from Pretoria to Durban, you were are not aware at any stage, you were only became aware of it when Willie Nortje touched it and gave it to somebody? You did not even touch the weapon, why apply for amnesty for it? MR VERMEULEN It was not necessary for me to touch the weapon, it was in the vehicle in which we were travelling and people were shot with this weapon. MR SHEZI Before the shooting ...(indistinct) you said you did not know that there was a weapon in the vehicle, isn't it, at any point in time? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman, not as far as I can recollect. MR SHEZI So you are applying for being in possession of something that you did not know that you were ever in possession of, is that what you are telling this Commission? MR VERMEULEN Afterwards I knew that there was a weapon in the car. CHAIRPERSON If Nortje had not taken the weapon from the boot you would not have known there was a weapon in the vehicle. MR VERMEULEN Then I wouldn't have known it. CHAIRPERSON Up till today you would not have known? MR VERMEULEN Up till today. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shezi? MR SHEZI Thank you, Mr Chairman. The group that went, Sgt Radebe and the others, were you present at any point in time when they were given instructions to go to Chesterville? MR VERMEULEN Please repeat the question. MR SHEZI Okay, I'll repeat that. When the group which went to Chesterville with Sgt Radebe, as you said you first waited by the graveyard and then later by the bridge, what instructions were given to that group when that group went to Chesterville? MR VERMEULEN At the graveyard they were instructed to infiltrate, go into Chesterville. I think they obtained an address from the police station or there where they obtained the information, they went to that address, they returned and said they met people there but the people do not trust them. MR SHEZI The purpose of infiltration, what was it for, was it going to infiltrate them and then what happened thereafter? MR VERMEULEN They infiltrate and they try to obtain names and addresses of activists and those types of things. - that type of information. MR SHEZI For what purpose or purposes? MR VERMEULEN They had to trace these people to find out who killed the security policemen. MR SHEZI Now the whole infiltration was merely to find out who these people were and then hopefully in the process the information about the killing of the policemen was going to come out. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI Did you hope that this information was going to come out in Chesterville in particular? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI Not in Lamontville, not anywhere else? MR VERMEULEN In Lamontville, if we could information there it would have been fine, but at that stage we were not in Lamontville we were in Chesterville. MR SHEZI These details about the infiltration which you've just outlined, were those given to the group that ...(indistinct) such an endeavour and if so, who gave those instructions and where were you at that time? MR VERMEULEN Willie Nortje gave the instructions. MR SHEZI And the larger part of my question was, where were you at that time when Willie Nortje gave those instructions? MR VERMEULEN I was with Nortje in the vehicle. MR SHEZI And there was no instruction, or there were no instructions for any arrest during the process or during the operation of the group that went to Chesterville? MR VERMEULEN Mr Radebe is a policeman, he had been working for Vlakplaas for a long time, it was not necessary to give him instructions. If there was a suspect it was not necessary to tell him to arrest somebody, he knew what to do. MR SHEZI I didn't ask you about Sgt Radebe's ranks or knowledge or capabilities, I am saying only instructions which were given - you said earlier on they were given instructions to go and find information, find the names of the people and hopefully the information about the killers of the Security Branch policemen was going to come out, and I am saying to you, the instruction to arrest in particular, was that given or not? Let's forget about Sgt Radebe's capabilities and his rank and everything. MR VERMEULEN No instructions were given to arrest, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI And then you are saying, within that short space of time whatever that amount of time would have been of the infiltration, it was going to be able for somebody to find out who those people were, whether they were involved in the killing of the Security Branch policemen and hopefully there would be proof in that regard, is that what you are saying? MR VERMEULEN No, this is not what I said, all that was said was that the people were told to go into that area and whether that took a day, that was a very short exercise, it was a short time and the people realised that the people did not trust them, they withdrew, they came back to us, they asked for a weapon to serve as a showpiece and they returned. I did not say they had to obtain the information within five minutes, it could have taken one day, three days or weeks. We were allocated to the Durban area for at least one month. MR SHEZI You were a policeman at that time with some experience, what did you say your rank was at the time? MR VERMEULEN I was a Warrant Officer, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI Investigation of murder as it were, because policemen were killed, murder had been committed, would that have been the ordinary way of trying to find information about investigations? MR VERMEULEN I don't understand what you're asking. CHAIRPERSON Is this how you investigate a murder usually, you infiltrate every area in a city? If somebody is killed in Durban in Smith Street, then you infiltrate every single area in Durban? This is the question. MR VERMEULEN I wouldn't say every single area has to be infiltrated, that's why we started where the flashpoint was and that was Chesterville. If I remember correctly, there were also people deployed to Lamontville and you just follow up the information which you obtain. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shezi? MR SHEZI Thank you, Mr Chairman, just two last questions. What do you mean Chesterville as flashpoint? Just explain that to me and the Commission. MR VERMEULEN At that stage Chesterville was a flashpoint, there were a lot of problems there, there were many Self-defence Units, there were unrests in that area. MR SHEZI And one more question which was I believe, put earlier on to you by Mr Ramawele. I'm going to put it to you. The group that went to Chesterville, Sgt Radebe and others, they drove in a separate car to go and find information which was going to be used later on to make a follow-up about the killing of the Security Branch policemen, will it be correct to say that if that information was received, further investigations or other follow-ups of information received would have been done some days later, depending on the nature of the information of course? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI Why were you then waiting down there by the bridge for these guys to come back? MR VERMEULEN Because we were the handlers of those people and should any problems arise, we could assist them. MR SHEZI What problems for example? MR VERMEULEN Any kind of problem. MR SHEZI I asked you for an example, give an example. MR VERMEULEN The car could have broken down, somebody could have been injured, somebody could have fallen ill or something like that, they perhaps needed additional assistance, perhaps more information about the environment. MR SHEZI The local policemen, Chesterville policemen, were they in any way ever contacted, were they nearby you, what was the case? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman, we did not contact them. MR SHEZI Did you and those guys which had went to Chesterville, carry any two-way radios by which you were communicating? I don't think cellphones were there when you were there at that time. MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI Then suppose the car broke down right where they were, how would you have known about it and more specifically, how could you have got in there? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Mr Chairman, they would have made some or other plan to get back to us. That is all I can say, I can't speculate what we would have done had something happened. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't they have looked for you at the graveyard? MR VERMEULEN No, they knew we moved to the bridge. CHAIRPERSON Did you tell them you were going to the bridge now? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shezi? MR SHEZI One more question. Did you eventually find information about the killing of the policemen? Eventually, did you get that information? MR VERMEULEN Not as far as I know, Mr Chairman. Before we could obtain the information shooting broke out. MR SHEZI Were there any other follow-ups in any other township of a similar sort of trying to get this information or the Chesterville incident was the only one by which you attempted to get this information? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Mr Chairman. There were other groups who went out, I don't know what they achieved. MR SHEZI I'm talking about your group, your group. MR VERMEULEN No, after the shooting our group went to Pretoria the next morning. MR SHEZI And then as far as your group is concerned, the whole purpose of trying to get information about the killing of policemen just went up in smoke? It was never pursued anymore? MR VERMEULEN Not in Durban, no Mr Chairman. MR SHEZI That will be all, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHEZI CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Shezi. So is that all you did, is that all the group did? You infiltrated, you sent the people into Chesterville, a shooting took place, then you packed up and you left home. MR VERMEULEN The instruction did not come from us, after the shooting incident early that morning we received instructions from Col de Kock that we had to go back to Pretoria. We did not ask why. CHAIRPERSON That is the sum total of your involvement in this operation. Is this the sum total of your group's participation or involvement in this whole operation in which the whole of Vlakplaas was involved? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, do I understand that there was only one AK47 in the vehicle that you were in with Mr Nortje? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. So then Mr Nortje has withdrawn his application in this matter, but the papers are still before us and he at that stage would also have applied for possession of an AK47. Would it be the same AK47, was there only one AK47? MR VERMEULEN As far as I know, yes, Mr Chairperson, only one AK47. MS PATEL Okay. Can I ask you, does the name Vernon Hamilton Hunter mean anything to you, does it ring a bell with you? MR VERMEULEN I'm not sure, but it does ring a bell. I'm not sure if it might have been the army person helping us with the information, I'm not sure but it does sound as if that could be the case. MS PATEL Okay. He was at that stage a Lieutenant stationed at the Umbilo SAP. It is correct that he in fact was the one who liaised with you and Nortje at the time, okay. Now does the name Charles Ndaba mean anything to you? MR VERMEULEN My memory was refreshed this morning about Charles Ndaba. I think this was the person that they said was responsible for the shooting of the security policemen and that he also had an SDU unit operating in that vicinity. This is only hearsay. I would not say that this is the truth, but this is what I head, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Where did you hear this information and when did you hear it? MR VERMEULEN I think it was yesterday from Willie Nortje, Chairperson. MS PATEL So you weren't privy to this information at the time of this incident? MR VERMEULEN I didn't understand, what do you mean? MS PATEL The information about Charles Ndaba, you didn't know about that at the time of this incident having taken place? MR VERMEULEN I cannot remember this, it is a very long time ago, but as I said Willie freshened my memory and what I can remember is, why we came down it's because of the murders of the Security Police officers, Chairperson. MS PATEL And the information about Charles Ndaba at that stage was that he was involved in the murder of policemen? MR VERMEULEN That is how I understood it, Chairperson. MS PATEL Is this from Willie yesterday only? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Were you not present with Willie at the time of the briefing with Lt Hunter? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson, I was present. MS PATEL And that was the only source of your information at that stage, not so? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Would the same hold true for Willie, because you and he were present all the time together, not so? MR VERMEULEN I would not able to answer on his behalf, but if I can speculate I would say yes, but he was also the group leader, so he could possibly have found out a little more or made a bit more enquiries. It was not really our duty to find out all of this, we just assisted him, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Were you not present though with him at all times from the briefing session to the time of the incident taking place? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL And there was no-one else that you can recall that he spoke to, to verify any other - any of the information that was received? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson, not that I can remember. MS PATEL Alright. Well nowhere does Willie in his application to us say that Charles Ndaba was in fact linked to the killing of policemen in Durban at the time. MR VERMEULEN I cannot remember this, but as I said I just heard this from him yesterday. He told me this yesterday, Chairperson, just to freshen my memory. MS PATEL Alright. Well I'm not sure where he got his information from yesterday, but given the summary of what he would have said at that - well this is a summary that is received from the docket, at that stage the information didn't relate to Charles Ndaba, it related to a Charles Ngcobo. Does that ring a bell with you? MR VERMEULEN No, this does not ring a bell, Chairperson. The names could differ. I wouldn't put my head on a block when it comes to the names, it could be Ngcobo or whoever. MS PATEL Alright. The information that was at hand at that stage was that Charles Ngcobo was in fact responsible for most of the comrade actions and was in possession of AK47 rifles and handgrenades. MR VERMEULEN This could be the case, Chairperson, I cannot remember. MS PATEL And the purpose of the operation at that stage, according to what Nortje would have said at that stage is that they were merely - the instruction was merely to go and look for Charles Ngcobo at the time, to get further information if possible. MR VERMEULEN This could be that at that stage they only wanted to look for Ngcobo, but we also would have followed up on other information, any information, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Are you certain that an AK47 rifle was handed over and not a Shay(?) 77 rifle? MR VERMEULEN I'm sure it was an AK47, Chairperson. MS PATEL I'm not privy to the statement that Mr Nortje would have made at the time, but in terms of the summary which I have before me he would have stated that at that time that it was in fact a Shay 77 rifle that was handed over and not an AK47. Can you comment? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is it possible? MR VERMEULEN Mr Chairperson, I do not know, my memory tells me it was an AK47. A Shay is a lot smaller, it's a handgun. CHAIRPERSON Like a what? MR VERMEULEN It's like an uzi gun, it's not the same type of size as an AK47 is. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chair. The members who were sent in to do the infiltration, where they have gotten their weapons from? MR VERMEULEN They would have used their own service handguns, Chairperson. MS PATEL Are you certain that they were armed at the time? MR VERMEULEN Service guns yes, Chairperson. MS PATEL Would askaris also generally be armed at the time? MR VERMEULEN Of those who were trusted, yes, they would have been armed. MS PATEL Can you tell us whether from your recollection, the askaris involved in this operation, whether they were trusted askaris? Or can you not comment? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL You've sought to amend your papers today and to change it from saying rather than "We gave them east block weapons" ... to state the only an AK47 was handed over to them. MR VERMEULEN I did not hear properly, Chairperson, it broke up a little. MS PATEL Okay. When your attorney led you in your evidence-in-chief this morning, you stated that you want to amend your papers, your application to us, on the question of whether eastern block weapons were in fact handed over to these - to the group that went in, to change that to read that only an AK47 was given. MR VERMEULEN Not handed over, just showed, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL So are you saying - if you read the sentence in its entirety, it says "We went with the askaris to the area, we gave them east block weapons to give the ANC members some reason ..." MR VERMEULEN No, this is wrong Chairperson, because you cannot do this, this is definitely a mistake. I know that Simon came to us, he asked us for an AK47 to show to the people because the people weren't very happy, they did not really trust him, Chairperson. MS PATEL My Afrikaans is not so great, does "pleiding te gee", does it mean to live out the legend, to give them some kind of credibility? Is that what is meant by "pleiding"? ADV DE JAGER No, I think there's no such word in Afrikaans, it must be a misprint as it stands there. It could be that the "o" before the "p" was omitted and then it would be "opleiding", to teach them, to instruct them. If that was the word, but they amended it to another word, "toon" something. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What type of weapons do the askaris have? MR VERMEULEN They also have normal service pistols, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do they have police weapons? MR VERMEULEN Yes, there had been weapons that came from the police that had been issued to them and if they were finished with deployment, then of the people who were not really credible, these weapons were taken back from them and then if they go on leave, then it is taken in and if then he goes onto an operation again it is issued again. CHAIRPERSON Were these eastern block weapons? MR VERMEULEN No, these were normal police issue weapons, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nofomela says that it is possible that of these askaris had been given Tokarevs. MR VERMEULEN I would not be able to comment on this operation. On other operations yes, they would have received them if they were infiltrating certain places. CHAIRPERSON We're talking about this operation. MR VERMEULEN I'm not sure, I cannot comment on this. I just know about the AK47, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would it have been an approach if you want to infiltrate, to give your prey training with weapons, where you pretend to be MK? MR VERMEULEN This could be the case, Chairperson, this would have helped a lot if you can gain the person's confidence. CHAIRPERSON And then you would have used eastern block weapons? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You would not use a police 9mm weapon? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, you wouldn't. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Ms Patel. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. I'm sorry I might have missed this, correct me if I'm wrong, but between you and Willie, neither of you handed weapons over to the group that went in to infiltrate? MR VERMEULEN Willie Nortje ...(intervention) MS PATEL Sorry, besides the one AK. MR VERMEULEN Yes, we did not hand over anything else, they had their own weapons, the service pistols that they were issued with and this is what they use, Chairperson. MS PATEL If they had gone in there to infiltrate with their normal service weapons, would it not have been dangerous if there was a problem that had arisen during the interaction with whoever they would have been with? Would it not have been easier for them to go in with perhaps eastern block weapons, to carry out the legend that they were in fact members of a liberation movement? MR VERMEULEN That would the case, Chairperson, but their own service pistols are normally hidden on their person and then they can infiltrate without the people knowing about it, and this is probably why he asked for the AK47. MS PATEL But you'll accept with an infiltration it's a dangerous situation, anything can happen. They could have been ...(intervention) MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL ... they could have been "gevisenteer" - I'm not sure what the English word is. CHAIRPERSON Searched. MS PATEL Searched, yes. That possibility is in fact a real possibility, things go wrong. So it would have been foolish of them to go in with their normal service weapons, not so? MR VERMEULEN No, this is not true, Chairperson. Because why would they then suddenly for some strange reason want to search a person and take his clothes off? I can't believe this, this has never happened, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But doesn't it make sense? I mean you're going to go and infiltrate, you are going to pretend to be an MK member and now you are going to go in there with a police pistol. Your chances are virtually naught that the people would trust you, doesn't it make more sense to use eastern block weapons, Tokarevs or whatever? MR VERMEULEN This does make sense, Chairperson, but at that stage as at Chesterville, it was not planned that the thing would escalate in that manner. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's a different point, Ms Patel would probably continue with this, but I will just return to the question that she had posed to you. Doesn't it make more sense if you want to infiltrate to issue eastern block weapons to your members? MR VERMEULEN Yes, I agree with this completely, Mr Chairperson, it would be a lot better if everything is eastern block. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Ms Patel. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. The shooting that took place, you were in the van at the time when it occurred, not so? Or you were under the bridge or somewhere there when it occurred. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Can you tell us what type of shooting you heard, was it just from the AK47 or was it from other weapons as well? MR VERMEULEN It was an enormous concentrated fire or firing that had taken place for, let's make it a maximum of 10 to 15 seconds I would say. MS PATEL And the group that came back, did they report that they all shot? That they all took part in the shooting? Because there was a report. MR VERMEULEN I wouldn't be able to say this, all I can remember is that Simon had returned and said that there had been a shooting. MS PATEL Well if I refer you - let me refer you to your application, page 75. On your Chesterville incident, the second paragraph you say "A skirmish broke out between them and the askaris came to report that they had killed people." You don't say Simon Radebe only, you say "the askaris" and - well you amended your papers earlier on, you didn't amend this, so what is your comment? MR VERMEULEN What I mean with this is that the whole group came from wherever they had been and Simon Radebe, as the one in command of them, came to report about this. There is nothing funny about this sentence. MS PATEL Was Simon Radebe an askari at that stage? MR VERMEULEN No, he was a police officer, Chairperson. MS PATEL Well then it doesn't tie in with what you stated here, you said "Die askaris het kom rapporteer" ... not Simon, and Simon is not an askari. MR VERMEULEN The askaris worked with Simon, Chairperson. MS PATEL No, but they didn't report to you, you're saying Simon reported to you. MR VERMEULEN This is correct. The word "askaris", one uses if - this was used as a general term. If the group was out and they returned we always refer to the group as askaris. I could also have said "the group". I didn't mean anything funny with this, or I didn't try to hide anything, that if one reads it like this then it means that every askari had to say look, I fired a shot and this guy fired a shot and that everyone had to come and report on their own. I just meant that the group came and Simon said that there had been a shooting, Chairperson. MS PATEL What did Simon say exactly when he got back, can you recall? MR VERMEULEN If I can remember correctly he just said that a shooting had taken place, Chairperson, and that people had been killed. I wouldn't say that these were his exact words, but this is basically the run of what he had said. MS PATEL Was there no discussion between Willie and Simon in your presence about this? MR VERMEULEN Willie could have spoken to him further, I do believe this, but I did not listen to the conversation, Chairperson. MS PATEL Did Simon get into your vehicle at the bridge when you returned back to the police station? MR VERMEULEN You mean back to CR Swart? MS PATEL Ja. MR VERMEULEN No, he drove his own bus back to CR Swart, if my memory serves me correctly. MS PATEL So when did he make a report to Willie, can you remember? MR VERMEULEN Directly after the shooting when he came from Chesterville he reported. We waited at the bridge and he reported there to the whole group and from there they had gone to CR Swart in their own vehicle and we went with our own vehicle to CR Swart as well. MS PATEL So as far as you can recall that is all he said at the scene at the bridge, that there was a skirmish, people had been shot, and then everybody departed back to CR Swart? There must have been a discussion then or a meeting at CR Swart again, to get further details as to what had happened, not so? MR VERMEULEN This is correct, and Simon and his group went to their sleeping quarters, we went to Col de Kock and we informed him that a shooting had taken place. What exactly had been said there I cannot remember now, it happened a long time ago, Chairperson. MS PATEL Were you with Willie when the report was made to Mr de Kock? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL And there wasn't another meeting with Simon before you went to Mr de Kock to give him a full report as to what had happened? MR VERMEULEN Not that I can remember, Chairperson. MS PATEL So at that stage when the report was made to Mr de Kock, the only thing that could have been said to him was that you had tried to - the group had tried to infiltrate, perhaps a cell at Chesterville and that there was a shooting and people had been shot, but that was it. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson, I think that was basically what could have been said. I cannot remember word for word. CHAIRPERSON Well someone put it, I don't know if it was Mr Hugo, that you very quickly left that scene. MR VERMEULEN This is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And that you left in a hurry from the scene, that you left Chesterville in a hurry. So there hadn't been a chance? MR VERMEULEN No, we didn't really have many opportunities to talk. CHAIRPERSON And to give reports and ... MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Ms Patel. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. I see it's after four, do I carry on or do we hold over until tomorrow? CHAIRPERSON Yes. Have you still got a few things to cover? MS PATEL I think I might still, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, no, then we're going to adjourn. Yes, we'll adjourn at this stage and we'll reconvene tomorrow morning at nine thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS