amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-06 PRETORIA 1 DOUW WILLEMSE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53678&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99090616_pre_990906pt.htm MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, the next witness that I call is Mr Douw Willemse. MR SIBANYONI Mr Willemse, are you Afrikaans? MR WILLEMSE Yes. MR SIBANYONI Would you state your names for the record. DOUW WILLEMSE (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Sworn in, Mr Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. You will find the application of Mr Willemse on page 12 and further of the bundle. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Willemse, you are an applicant for amnesty in this incident and your application appears on page 12, is that correct? MR WILLEMSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW I want to show you writ dated 1993. Before you read the contents thereof to the Committee, is it so that you receive treatment for post-traumatic stress? MR WILLEMSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And this writ is before you was signed by a psychiatrist, Dr P H van der Merwe, is this the psychiatrist who treated you? MR WILLEMSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And because of this post-traumatic stress, do you have trouble with your memory? MR WILLEMSE Yes. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, I'd like to hand this letter it, it's the original. Unfortunately I didn't have time to make copies available to the rest of the Committee, I'll see to it - it will be done later, and I beg leave to hand it in. Mr Willemse, you request that the Committee sees your evidence in the light of this treatment which you receive, is that correct? MR WILLEMSE That is correct, Chairperson, I will try my best to give a complete history of what I can recall. MR ROSSOUW Very well. Mr Willemse, you have applied for amnesty on this occasion and your amnesty application and specifically the general background with regard to the political objective appears from page 14 and further. Do you confirm the contents thereof? MR WILLEMSE Yes. MR ROSSOUW And is it your signature which appears on page 18 of this bundle? MR WILLEMSE That's correct. MR ROSSOUW With regard to this specific incident your amnesty application was supplemented and the incident is described on page 34 and further in the bundle. MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Mr Willemse, when this incident took place, were you stationed at Vlakplaas? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And what was your rank at that stage? MR WILLEMSE I was a Sergeant. MR ROSSOUW And did you resort under the command of Col de Kock? MR WILLEMSE That's correct. MR ROSSOUW You have now heard testimony that there was an operation in the Eastern Transvaal, on the Swaziland border and members of Vlakplaas returned back to Vlakplaas. Were you among these persons who returned from Swaziland, the Eastern Transvaal? MR WILLEMSE Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW And you arrived at Vlakplaas, will you please tell the Committee where you were when the canteen was unlocked. MR WILLEMSE We had enjoyed some drinks in the canteen. MR ROSSOUW And can you briefly describe to the Committee in your own words what had happened there. MR WILLEMSE Chairperson, Moses Ntehelang, who was known to me as "The Yellow One", was brought into the canteen and there was a dispute with regard to a firearm which had disappeared. Col de Kock spoke to him and at a stage he became very angry and struck him with a pool cue and he was very angry and at that stage when the assault took place, I walked out of the canteen and stood outside. MR ROSSOUW Mr Willemse, did you see anybody else who assaulted Mr Ntehelang, except for Mr de Kock? MR WILLEMSE Chairperson, no, I cannot specifically say that I saw specific persons, but I can recall that Mr de Kock struck him. MR ROSSOUW And you went and stood outside the canteen, did you return? MR WILLEMSE Yes, Chairperson. Later when it became quiet in the canteen I returned inside where I observed that Mr Ntehelang was lying on the floor and it seemed to me as if he was dead. MR ROSSOUW And you did not see how he had been killed or had become to be lying in such a condition? MR WILLEMSE No. MR ROSSOUW And you did not see the people who were involved in there as well? MR ROSSOUW And what happened then? MR WILLEMSE If I recall correctly, Col de Kock approached me and asked me - and I think he also approached Mr Flores, and asked me to be of assistance with the disposal of the body, which I then indeed did. If I recall correctly, I assisted in loading the body into the boot of the vehicle which had been pulled up to the side of the canteen and along with Mr de Kock, Martiens Ras and Leon Flores, whom I can recall, we drove in the vehicle to a place somewhere in Western Transvaal. I heard the other people say it was in Zeerust, I do not know where it was, but it was somewhere in Western Transvaal. MR ROSSOUW Very well. You say in your statement that on your way there you fell asleep, did you drink that evening? MR WILLEMSE That is correct, Chairperson, I had very much to drink. MR ROSSOUW And when you arrived at the particular place, was the body of Mr Ntehelang unloaded from the vehicle? What happened there? MR WILLEMSE We attempted - if my recollection is correct here, we tried - it was either a warthog hole that we tried to enlarge, it was in amongst some trees and we tried to fit this body into this hole, which we then indeed did. MR ROSSOUW Yes, and you have also heard the evidence of Mr Flores, that attempts were made to burn the body. MR WILLEMSE That's correct, I recall something like that. MR ROSSOUW Can you recall what attempted were made? Was petrol used, wood used? MR WILLEMSE I don't know, but I know that an attempt was made. MR ROSSOUW Very well. And is it true that in the attempt of widening the warthog hole you threw up? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And you have heard the evidence of Mr de Kock with regard to the dangers and risks which it held for Vlakplaas if the death of Mr Ntehelang had been investigated in the normal manner, and that it could possibly disclose Vlakplaas. Did you hear that evidence? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And do you agree with that? MR WILLEMSE Yes, I do. MR ROSSOUW So did you accept that the instruction you received from Mr de Kock that you had to participate in the disposal of this body was in the interest of the clandestine situation which was applicable to Vlakplaas? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And in the protection thereof? MR WILLEMSE Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW Mr Willemse, were you financially or otherwise rewarded for your involvement in this incident? MR WILLEMSE No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And you were not involved, or you did not participate in any manner in any assault on Mr Ntehelang? MR WILLEMSE No, I did not. MR ROSSOUW You then request amnesty as an accessory to murder or culpable manslaughter of Mr Ntehelang. MR WILLEMSE That's correct. MR ROSSOUW You gave evidence in the trial of Mr de Kock, about this incident. MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And you also received indemnity with regard to this incident. MR WILLEMSE Yes, I think it was Section 204. MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record. We have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Booyens, Mr Chairperson. Mr Willemse, will you please page to page 34, paragraph 9(a)4.2, the first line: "Moses Ntehelang was apprehended ..." What do you mean with that statement? I would like some clarity there. MR WILLEMSE Chairperson, What I meant was not apprehended as in arrested, but he had been traced by other members and had been brought to the farm. MR BOOYENS In other words, you don't dispute the version that people had found him in a shebeen and then made him return? That fits with what you are trying to say? MR WILLEMSE Yes, that is what I am trying to say. MR BOOYENS And you have already heard what I put on behalf of Mr Bellingan, that he says that the man first spoke to him and told him - or I will not say firstly spoke to him, he might have spoken to somebody else, but he told Bellingan that he had lost his firearm and then Bellingan took him to Maj de Kock. Do you know of this, can you comment on it, whether it had happened or not, or do you not know? MR WILLEMSE No, Chairperson, what I can recall is that he was brought into the canteen by somebody, but I cannot recall specifically who brought him in. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR CORNELIUS Cornelius on record, Mr Chair, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR BOTHA Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA MR JANSEN Jansen, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI Were there any members, were there any black members of the police at Vlakplaas when the event took place? MR WILLEMSE Chairperson, no, not in the canteen. Not where the alleged assault had taken place, not there. MR SIBANYONI There were also no other askaris around there? MR WILLEMSE Not in the canteen, no, not that I can recall. MR SIBANYONI You were part of the operation from Swaziland. MR WILLEMSE That's correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Were there any members, black members of the Vlakplaas team and/or askaris? MR WILLEMSE Chairperson no, I cannot recall whether any black members were present. As a rule we never actually used many of the black members in cross-border operations, but at that instance I cannot recall whether there were any black members involved. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR WILLEMSE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, I ... MR ROSSOUW I don't have any re-examination, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW WITNESS EXCUSED MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, may I at this stage, and I think I speak on behalf of my colleagues, Mr Jansen, I speak on behalf of my colleague, Mr Rossouw as well. I'll take responsibility for this. My situation is that my three clients, both Mr Tait - Mr Tait only arrived here, he was delayed in the Eastern Cape, he only arrived here late last night, I haven't had time to consult with him yet. Mr Baker was in the amnesty hearing last week in Durban, so he only got away from there and he arrived back here. As far as Mr Bellingan is concerned, I took a chance and if the Committee wants to reprimand me, I'll happily accept, but I'm responsible for that. Mr Bellingan unfortunately had to attend to very urgent business this morning and I said to him I do not think we will get to him. I was obviously wrong and I apologise to the Committee, it's my fault that we're not ready to proceed now, Mr Chairman, but I see that we do seem to have got through a fair amount of evidence today. May I ask that we adjourn at this stage, and I think my colleagues are in the same position. CHAIRPERSON Well this hearing has been set down for the whole week. I don't think there is any danger of it not being concluded within that time, so I'm quite happy, unless anybody has any strong objections, to grant your application. I also feel that it will not be necessary for us to start as we usually do at 9 o'clock in the morning, as when there are heavy hearings going on, some of you may have come from far away. What time would you suggest, 10? MR BOOYENS 10 'clock, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we will now adjourn till 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. There's no possibility of anything else being set down later in the week is there? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, there was a request from my colleagues that we put some more matters on the roll. I will look into that immediately. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS