amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-06 PRETORIA 2 MARTHINUS DAWID RAS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53679&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99090616_pre_990907pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen, I see that you've moved, I take it you are now going to lead a witness. MR JANSEN Yes, indeed. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I call Mr Ras to testify in his own application. MR SIBANYONI Afrikaans or English speaking? MR RAS Afrikaans. MR SIBANYONI For the purposes of the hearing, your full names? MARTHINUS DAWID RAS (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI He has been sworn in, Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Ras, in July 1989, you were a Warrant Officer stationed at the C1 Unit in Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR RAS Yes, that is correct. MR JANSEN Now you are applying for accessory to the murder or the assault of Mr Moses Ntehelang, is that correct? MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN And your application in this regard appears from page 168 and further in the documents which have been placed before the Committee, is that correct? MR RAS Yes, that is correct. MR JANSEN With regard to your personal background and your general political motives, is it correct that this is embodied within the first section of that application of yours and this leads up to page 173? MR RAS That is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN And you confirm the correctness thereof. MR RAS Yes, I confirm this. MR JANSEN Furthermore, you are also aware that there was a special hearing during which Mr de Kock gave evidence regarding Vlakplaas in general. MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN And you wish that that evidence be incorporated with your application. MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN The incident of July 1989 was preceded by a deployment of Vlakplaas members at the Swaziland border. MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN Were you a member of that deployment? MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN Did you travel back with the other members? MR RAS No, Chairperson. MR JANSEN Did you return before them? MR RAS That is correct, Chairperson. I cannot recall specifically who I had to go and see at that point. If I recall correctly, I think it was someone in Middelburg and I would have arrived back at the farm at a later stage. MR JANSEN Were you at any stage with the other members when they consumed alcohol in Middelburg? MR RAS No. MR JANSEN Can you recall at what time you returned to the farm that evening? MR RAS Approximately 6 o'clock or 18H00 that evening, if I recall correctly. MR JANSEN Were you completely sober at that stage? MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN What can you recall about that stage? MR RAS Chairperson, if I recall correctly, I stopped at the back of the canteen on the right-hand side and Mr de Kock was standing outside the canteen and when I stopped he walked over to me and told me that they had problems because one of the askaris had been killed during interrogation. He simply told me that the person had lost his firearm, but that it was also about the fact that this person had been suspected for quite some time of performing a double role on the farm. CHAIRPERSON Sorry before you go on, it's a matter I should have raised yesterday. The canteen at Vlakplaas was a separate building wasn't it? MR RAS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And my recollection is that it was a very comfortably furnished building, it had couches, easy chairs and I am told that there was a shelving at one stage where the liquor was stored, but that was not there when we had an inspection. Is that correct? MR RAS That is correct, Chairperson. At a later stage the canteen was altered, but I cannot remember any easy chairs at that stage. There were bar stools, perhaps there were one or two ordinary chairs within the room, but the canteen was there. CHAIRPERSON And it was a completely separate building. MR RAS That is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN It would also appear from the previous evidence regarding Vlakplaas, that in 1989 Vlakplaas was quite a reasonably large set-up, there were approximately a hundred members or more who were stationed there. MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN Did you know Mr Ntehelang? MR RAS Chairperson, I knew him because he was a member of the farm, but I didn't work with him and he didn't work with me. I didn't know him very well. MR JANSEN I think you have given evidence about this previously, but where did you and your group work primarily? MR RAS Primarily in the Western Transvaal Chairperson, Western Transvaal/Botswana area. MR JANSEN And he was not a member of your group? MR RAS No. MR JANSEN So when Mr de Kock told you that there were problems, that Mr Ntehelang had died during interrogation, was there any way in which you could verify whether that which Mr de Kock was telling you was correct or incorrect? MR RAS No. MR JANSEN What was Mr de Kock's request to you then, in what way were you supposed to assist? MR RAS We had to bury the person at a place. MR JANSEN And on page 175 of the documents, if you will just look at that, you provide a list of names of those persons who were apparently involved or who were present on the farm. There are certain amendments that you wish to make with regard to that, is that correct? MR RAS Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN Would you then submit these amendments to the Committee. MR RAS Chairperson, when I made the statement I was one of the first who made a statement with the investigating team and I cannot recall specifically. At that stage persons entered my memory and I may have been mistaken regarding Snor Vermeulen, Dawid Britz, Blackie Swart and Sakkie Morkel. The reason why they were in my memory at that stage could be because their names were mentioned at a certain point, but I cannot recall the exact reason. MR JANSEN Perhaps there were suggestions which were made to you at that stage. MR RAS That is possible. MR JANSEN But the names of the other persons running from I to VII, do you at this point have an independent recollection that they were present on the farm? MR RAS Yes, that is correct, because some of those persons also accompanied me on the evening when we went to bury the person. MR JANSEN Very well. Now when the request came to you to assist with the disposal of the body, what were your suggestions in this regard? MR RAS Chairperson, that we should go and bury him on a farm in the Western Transvaal where I knew of another person who will appear before the Amnesty Committee ...(intervention) MR JANSEN That is another incident for which you have also requested amnesty? MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN And that incident took place some time before this incident. MR RAS That is correct, it is also a person who was marked as a double-agent and who we had to eliminate and bury there. MR JANSEN Just to mention this briefly, the incident was also about an askari, but he was not connected to Vlakplaas, he worked for the Bophuthatswana Police. MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN Just to ensure, at the stage when you were approached by Mr de Kock, Mr Ntehelang was already dead. MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN You had no knowledge of any of the events with regard to Mr Ntehelang, which preceded that moment. MR RAS Correct. MR JANSEN Then just furthermore, for the purposes of the Committee, in 1996, in mid-1996 you made contact ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR JANSEN Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I could just repeat. Mr Ras, in mid-1996 you established contact with a Mr McAdam, Adv McAdam, who was at that stage connected to the TRC, is that correct? MR RAS Yes, that is correct, it was after the conviction at Motherwell. MR JANSEN And you then made all your statements which are the subject of your amnesty applications and you made these statements to him. MR RAS That is correct. I must just mention that at that stage when the Motherwell incident was taking place, the TRC was not yet established and after the conviction the TRC had been established, upon which I approached Mr McAdam for the sake of statements which I was to make in support of my amnesty applications. MR JANSEN But part of the process of making those statements was that you had to identify certain places or points for the Special Investigative Team of the Attorney-General at that stage. MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN Now with specific reference to Mr Ntehelang's body, did you identify this place for that investigating team? MR RAS That is correct, he was buried with the other person, but as a result of the fact - and I'm inferring here, that Mr Ntehelang was buried in quite a shallow grave, animals may have dug his body up and I must just say that at the place where I pointed out his grave, the dogs registered and they lay down and this is another inference that I'm drawing, that the dogs as a result of body fluids which may still have remained in the soil, reacted to this place, but we didn't find any body. However I did find the body of the other person who had been buried there. He was identified and his body was exhumed. MR JANSEN In other words, what you are saying is that the body of the other victim was exhumed, but with regard to this particular incident it would appear that you pointed out the correct place but that the body was no longer there? MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN And what you did, did you do this in order to cover up the concealment of Mr Ntehelang's body and the preceding events and did you regard this as an action which you executed under the order of Mr de Kock? MR RAS That is correct. MR JANSEN Did you receive any money for this incident? MR RAS No. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you go on, were you there when the body was buried? MR RAS Yes, Chairperson, I myself assisted in digging the grave. CHAIRPERSON Now we have been told that he was buried in a warthog's ...(intervention) MR RAS No, Chairperson, I know the place very well and I know that I myself helped with the digging of the grave. It was not in a warthog hole. CHAIRPERSON That's point one. The second point is we were told that after the body was buried a fire was lit on it, an attempt was made to burn it - well before it was buried an attempt was made to burn it. MR RAS Chairperson, this is quite a long time ago, I cannot say immediately that we did this or that we didn't do this. With my first body that I buried we did do so, but with this one I cannot recall that we did that. CHAIRPERSON But you did try to burn the first body? MR RAS No, we did burn the first one, yes. CHAIRPERSON And we were also told, or it was said in one of the statements that thereafter stones were put on top of the body. MR RAS That is correct, Chairperson. The reason for that being to prevent that animals dig up the body, but I must say that there were quite a few hyenas in the environment and such a type of animal would still be able to find the body of a person or any other items which may be buried, even though they are covered by stones. MR JANSEN The reason for the burning of a body would be to complicate the identification of such a body, is that correct? MR RAS Yes, that would be one of the reasons and then of course the second reason is simply to assist with the speedy decomposition of the body. MR JANSEN You did not act out of any personal malice of revenge against Mr Ntehelang, with regard to the incident? MR RAS No. MR JANSEN Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record. Mr Ras, just singular questions. How far is this farm situated away from Vlakplaas? What I mean by that is, how long did you travel? Just by approximation. MR RAS About 280/285 kilometres away from the farm. MR HATTINGH Three hours drive? MR RAS Yes. MR HATTINGH So it would have been quite late at night when you arrived there? MR RAS Well we arrived there - we arrived back when it was dawn, at approximately 7 o'clock. MR HATTINGH But when you arrived there it would have been in the early morning hours? MR RAS No, it was about 10 or 11 o'clock, because I cannot recall whether we woke the farmer up and told him that we were going camping, in order to formulate an excuse and that's why we needed a spade. MR HATTINGH Very well. Mr de Kock did not give evidence about this because at that stage it was not under discussion, but his instructions to me are that it is his recollection that you placed dry wood on the body and attempted to set it alight, but that you could not kindle the fire and you didn't want to spend anymore time there and that is why you covered the body with soil and stones and so forth and departed. MR RAS I cannot recall that specifically, as I have just testified, it may be. I know with the first body specifically, I set the body alight because I spent time on doing that, but with the second body I cannot recall specifically what I did. I don't know, perhaps I'm thinking of the first body, I don't wish to make any expressed statements about it. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MACHINE SWITCHED OFF CHAIRPERSON Who was with you when you burnt the first body? MR RAS Chairperson, it was me and Dave Baker. CHAIRPERSON So none of the other people who gave evidence to us were there when the first body was burnt? MR RAS Chairperson, with the first incident, as I will testify at a later stage, it was just me and Mr Baker who were involved and I was the only one who shot the person as well. CHAIRPERSON ... don't want details of the offence at this stage, it's merely that we have heard a lot of evidence as to how drunk most of the people were and it would be comparatively easy to imagine confusion if they had been there on some other occasion and done something else, but you say none of the others were there. MR RAS No, it was only me and Baker. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BOOYENS No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR ROSSOUW Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I have also no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR BOTHA Botha, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA MR CORNELIUS Cornelius, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI If I remember well, someone said you were called to assist in finding the place where the body should be buried because you knew the farmer, is that so? MR RAS That is correct, Chairperson. I would just like to elaborate on this for you. I knew the farmers in the environment, I grew up in that vicinity and I knew that the farmer had two farms, one of which he did not live on. So I knew if I stopped at that time on his farm, he would not be on the other farm and he wouldn't know that I had gone there. MR SIBANYONI And did the farmer know that you were burying people on his farm? MR RAS No, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI What excuse did you give for the first incident? MR RAS Chairperson, I didn't. On the previous occasion I simply told him, if I recall correctly, that we wanted to go hunting and he had very frequently offered me the opportunity to go hunting or just to go relaxing on his farm, and he didn't know about it. But at a later stage I will give evidence about the other incident. With this particular incident I knew that on that evening if he was at home he would not be on the other farm because they were quite far apart, reasonably far, such as 10 kilometres. It was quite a remote farm. MR SIBANYONI I learn you've applied for amnesty, what is the name of the victim in that first incident? MR RAS Chairperson, I don't know, I think it's a PAC member. I don't even recall the name of this person. It was a PAC member that they gave to me, they said he was a double-agent, that I was to eliminate him and get rid of the body, which I then did. But I will later elaborate on that matter. MR SIBANYONI No further questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How far apart were the two bodies buried? MR RAS Chairperson, five metres, next to each other. CHAIRPERSON And how long before had the first body been buried? MR RAS A few months, it wasn't quite a long time before this incident. CHAIRPERSON But you were able to take the Attorney-General's representatives to there, show them and they dug up the remains of the first body. MR RAS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And did you show them - were you certain as to where the second body was buried? MR RAS Chairperson, I must just mention that among others, I fetched three trunks of weapons which had been buried in the veld there. I grew up in that area and I knew it very well, so I was able to take them to these points. I took the first person directly to the one body and directly to the next. The first one we dug up directly, but with the second the dogs responded, but we didn't find anything in the place where he was buried. CHAIRPERSON So somebody or something had removed the body completely? MR RAS Chairperson, that was the only inference that I could draw. I cannot think of any other reason, because we didn't only go to that point, we went in an area that was about a five metre radius from that point and we didn't find anything else. CHAIRPERSON You didn't find bones and things that one would have thought would have been left by hyenas ...(indistinct)? MR RAS Chairperson, not very easily after 10 years. I must just say that this was on a river bank, the river would flow down once or twice a year. If there were bones in the river area ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No if it wasn't covered they would have been found, yes - they would have disappeared. MR RAS Disappeared. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry, re-examination? MR JANSEN No re-examination, thanks, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN MR RAS Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MACHINE SWITCHED OFF