amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-06 PRETORIA 2 ISAK DANIEL BOSCH https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53680&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99090616_pre_990907pt.htm MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, the next witness will be Mr Bosch. MR SIBANYONI Mr Bosch, will you place your full names on record. ISAK DANIEL BOSCH (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Sworn in, Mr Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairperson, you'll find the application of Mr Bosch on page 78 and further or the bundle. The relevant section dealing with this incident is on page 93 and further, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Before we go on. Going back to the previous applicant ...(indistinct - no microphone) MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR JANSEN Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(no microphone) MR JANSEN Yes, sorry, I omitted to deal with that in evidence, Mr Chairman. That's the statement he made to the Special Investigative Unit. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Bosch, you are an applicant in these proceedings and your amnesty application appears on page 78 and following. Do you confirm that that is your application form? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And do you confirm the contents of it? MR BOSCH Yes. MR ROSSOUW And it is your signature on page 84 thereof. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, you have also added an annexure to your amnesty application, which appears on pages 85 to 90, is that an extract which was made from the incidents which you were involved in, which is attached to your amnesty application? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And your amnesty application was supplemented, is that the supplementary section which appears from page 91 and following? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR ROSSOUW And do you confirm the contents thereof? MR BOSCH Yes. MR ROSSOUW May I take you to page 93. You apply for amnesty as an accomplice, murder or culpable manslaughter of Moses Ntehelang. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW You have heard the evidence here that before this incident there had been an operation in the Eastern Transvaal. Were you involved there? MR BOSCH Yes, I was. MR ROSSOUW You returned with the other members of Vlakplaas back to Vlakplaas. MR BOSCH Yes. MR ROSSOUW Did you consume liquor on the way back? MR BOSCH No. MR ROSSOUW When you arrived at Vlakplaas, did you consume liquor in the canteen? MR BOSCH No, I did not. MR ROSSOUW You have heard evidence from the other applicants that you consumed less liquor than any of the other applicants. What do you say of that? MR BOSCH He may be mistaken because I do not drink at all. MR ROSSOUW Now Mr Bosch, that particular evening, will you please tell the Committee where were you with regard to the canteen, were you inside or outside when Mr Ntehelang arrived at the canteen? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I and other members stood outside and held conversations. There was a braai area and we were standing out there and Ntehelang and Steven, one of the camp guards came there and he said something to the effect that his firearm had been lost. MR ROSSOUW And did he say what he wanted to do? MR BOSCH He said he wanted to speak to the Major. MR ROSSOUW Did he go into the canteen then? MR BOSCH Yes, he did. MR ROSSOUW Did you accompany him inside? MR BOSCH No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Was this Steven who came and said this? MR BOSCH That's correct, yes Sir. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, maybe we should go back to that. Did Ntehelang arrive with Steven at the canteen? MR BOSCH Yes, that is where I was standing. I was standing outside the canteen and Steven and - they came there. MR ROSSOUW Which of the two said that he lost his firearm? MR BOSCH I think the camp guard first spoke about it and then Ntehelang said that he had lost his firearm. MR ROSSOUW So you say you did not go along with them into the canteen, but at a later stage you went there. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR ROSSOUW And can you tell the Committee what you saw. MR BOSCH When I entered I saw Maj de Kock with the pool cue and he hit Simon, or Moses. MR ROSSOUW What did you do then? MR BOSCH I turned around. MR ROSSOUW Do you recall where you went to? MR BOSCH Probably outside to the braai area. MR ROSSOUW Did you see any other members from Vlakplaas coming out of the canteen? MR BOSCH Yes, there was some movement, people were walking in and out at that stage. MR ROSSOUW Except for - at that stage, except for the assault of Mr de Kock on Mr Ntehelang, did you see any other members from Vlakplaas who assaulted Mr Ntehelang? MR BOSCH I saw Piet Botha and Brood van Heerden were suffocating him with a rubber tube. MR ROSSOUW That is later when you returned again? MR BOSCH Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And what did you do when you saw them tubing Mr Ntehelang? MR BOSCH I cannot recall whether it was then or at a later stage, but Mr Hugh Lugg who was sitting there, who was also an askari, I took him outside so that he should not see what was going on. MR ROSSOUW Did you return at some stage? MR BOSCH Yes, that's correct. MR ROSSOUW And did you find certain persons outside the canteen? MR BOSCH Yes, I found Col de Kock outside. MR ROSSOUW And did you speak to him? MR BOSCH Yes, he told me to get the kettle boiling. MR ROSSOUW And what did you do then? MR BOSCH I went back to the kitchen and I switched on the kettle and waited for it to boil. MR ROSSOUW And what happened? MR BOSCH It didn't boil. MR ROSSOUW And did you report that to Mr de Kock? MR BOSCH I walked back to him and told him that the kettle was not boiling. MR ROSSOUW Was he outside? MR BOSCH Yes, he was. MR ROSSOUW Could you see what was going on inside at the canteen? MR BOSCH At that stage I saw Mr Ntehelang was wrapped up in a blanket with a rope as well. MR ROSSOUW You have heard the evidence of Mr Flores, that he said he asked you to collect the blanket and the rope, what is your recollection? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I cannot recall that. It may be so, but I cannot recall that at all. MR ROSSOUW Very well. The reason why he asked you, he said that you were part of the Technical Division at Vlakplaas, what were your duties in this Technical Division? MR BOSCH Photography, bugging, video material. MR ROSSOUW You were not in control of the blankets or sheets? MR BOSCH There were many beds at Vlakplaas, Chairperson, so - "baie nagte het ons daar geslaap, so jy kon net 'n kombers van 'n bed afgehaal het as jy moes". MR ROSSOUW Did you see what happened further with the body that was wrapped up in the blanket? MR BOSCH At a later stage I saw them loading it into a vehicle's boot. MR ROSSOUW Did you participate in any assault of Ntehelang? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Did you see when he died, or did you see how it happened? MR BOSCH No, I did not see how he died. MR ROSSOUW So you cannot say who were the persons who were responsible for this? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW There was no plan that Mr Ntehelang would be killed. MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, this particular day when you were on Vlakplaas, under whose command were you? MR BOSCH Under Col de Kock's. MR ROSSOUW And what was your rank at that stage? MR BOSCH I was a Sergeant. MR ROSSOUW And did you have instructions to remain at Vlakplaas after you returned from the Eastern Transvaal? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR ROSSOUW And where did that instruction come from? MR BOSCH From Maj de Kock. MR ROSSOUW So you could not go home? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Very well. Mr Bosch, you then request amnesty and you mention in your statement on page 96, that the assault that had taken place on Vlakplaas on the person such as Mr Ntehelang, was to obtain information and in this instance, to find out where his firearm was. Do you confirm that? MR BOSCH Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Did you receive any reward? MR BOSCH No. MR ROSSOUW And in this incident, to remain silent? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Did you report to anyone that a person had died at Vlakplaas and that his body had been removed from there? MR BOSCH No, I did not, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And the fact that you remained silent about it, have you heard the evidence of Mr de Kock, that the reason why the body was disposed of was to protect the identity of Vlakplaas and that it not be exposed to investigations? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR ROSSOUW Do you agree with that? MR BOSCH Yes, I agree. MR ROSSOUW And do you confirm it as such? MR BOSCH Yes, I do. MR ROSSOUW And the fact that you remain silent and did not report it to anyone, or did not stop the assaults, did you do this out of any malicious intent towards Mr Ntehelang? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Were you in a position to stop the assault on him? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CHAIRPERSON Were you influenced in your decision not to report to anyone by what you thought Mr de Kock's reaction might be? MR BOSCH Chairperson, at that stage I don't one thinks that far to make a plan to go and report it, what you saw was in by the one ear and out by the other ear. CHAIRPERSON The next day, the next week, the next month? MR BOSCH No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Were you influenced by the fact that you were merely a Sergeant at Vlakplaas and that you might come into a great deal of trouble if you reported? MR BOSCH Yes, I would have become - there would have been a lot of trouble, I cannot do it, ja. CHAIRPERSON So you - ja, there was this feeling at Vlakplaas. MR BOSCH Ja. CHAIRPERSON You couldn't tell tales. MR BOSCH No, Sir. ADV SANDI Can you just explain something. After this incident those of you who were involved in it directly and indirectly, did you have any discussion amongst yourselves about what had happened? MR BOSCH No, Sir, we will not discuss it. ADV SANDI Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record. Mr Bosch, were you here yesterday when Maj de Kock gave evidence? MR BOSCH Not in the morning, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH His evidence was among others, to the effect that bugging took place of telephone discussions with which Vlakplaas members were involved. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH The bugging devices were in your offices, is that correct? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR HATTINGH And you were in control of it. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR HATTINGH And it was a small cement close to the other huts. MR BOSCH No, it was an old garage next to the cement hut. MR HATTINGH And is it correct that the telephone conversations which were listened in on were recorded on tape. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR HATTINGH And that some of the other members of Vlakplaas later, more particular the members who were proficient in the black language were told to listen to it. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR HATTINGH Was it because the askaris could not be entirely trusted? MR BOSCH That's correct, and I would like to add, Chairperson, we had two coin telephones installed and we limited them to those coin telephones because it was easier to tap those telephones. MR HATTINGH So it was at those two coin telephones that the tapping devices were attached, is that correct? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR HATTINGH And in your office where tapping had taken place on other conversations? I'm thinking about the Dirk Coetzee incident now. Were there tapes ...(intervention) MR BOSCH Yes, there were tapes, but the tapping was not done from my office. MR HATTINGH And the people who had to listen to the tapes came there. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And did you and the members who were involved there report to Mr de Kock with regard to information which you had obtained by listening to these tapes? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH ADV SANDI Sorry, who were those of you who were proficient in the African languages? MR BOSCH Chairperson, what happened was the tapes were made and then it was given to the black policemen on the farm. There was a certain group who listened to it, they would listen to it and transcribe it. ADV SANDI We heard yesterday that Mr van Heerden was known to be quite proficient in the languages that were being spoken by the askaris. Do you know about that? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. ADV SANDI Was it part of the arrangement that Mr van Heerden, being so proficient with some of the languages the askaris were speaking, was he one of the people who would go and convey whatever information he would gather on the conversations that they were having amongst themselves? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, he did not listen at all. MR BOOYENS No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR BOTHA No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA MR CORNELIUS Cornelius for the record, no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR JANSEN Jansen, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI You said Steven came and then thereafter Ntehelang the deceased, went into the canteen. Did Steven accompany him into the canteen? MR BOSCH No, Sir he did not accompany him to the canteen. MR SIBANYONI And then you said you saw when de Kock assaulted Ntehelang with the snooker stick, were you inside the canteen or outside? MR BOSCH The canteen has got a very wide door, it's a sliding door, so when you stand on the stoep just before you go into the canteen, then you can see right inside the canteen, you can see everything that's going on in the canteen. So you don't have to enter, you can see it from the stoep outside. MR SIBANYONI So you were able to observe Ntehelang getting inside and de Kock assaulting him? MR BOSCH That's correct, Sir. By the time I was standing outside and Ntehelang went into the canteen, then he disappeared out of my sight because I was standing far away, but when I moved towards the door of the canteen I could see Mr de Kock hitting him with the snooker cue. MR SIBANYONI Was it immediately after Ntehelang entered the canteen or it took some time? MR BOSCH No, Sir, it was a few minutes after that. MR SIBANYONI How long approximately? MR BOSCH Five minutes. - if five minutes, but I did not take the time, but it was not immediately. MR SIBANYONI Did Ntehelang directly go to Mr de Kock or he spoke to any other policemen who were inside there? MR BOSCH Sir, I did not see that, I just saw - when I went to the door of the canteen I just Mr de Kock with the snooker cue in his hand and hitting him. CHAIRPERSON Before then, when he came with Steven, did they talk to anybody else outside? MR BOSCH Ja, they talked to me and - I don't want to name names, but I think it was Bellingan who was standing with me outside. We were standing outside and then the two of them came to us and then Steven went back and Ntehelang went in. MR SIBANYONI Did you see Mr Flores talking to Ntehelang? MR BOSCH Not at that stage, no Sir. MR SIBANYONI Did you observe, from the time Mr de Kock hit Ntehelang with the snooker stick until Ntehelang was on the floor and de Kock moved out? MR BOSCH No, Sir. When I saw Mr de Kock hitting him with the snooker cue, I turned around and I walked away. So there was blank pieces that I did not see. CHAIRPERSON Was that because you didn't want to have anything to do with this assault? MR BOSCH That's correct, Sir. MR SIBANYONI Did you see any money which was found in Ntehelang's possession? MR BOSCH No, Sir. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions, Chairperson. ADV SANDI Did you hear anything about money have been found in his possession? MR BOSCH I think somebody mentioned it yesterday, Sir, but up to now I haven't heard anything about that. ADV SANDI It was the first time that you heard yesterday? MR BOSCH Yesterday, ja. ADV SANDI Is it the position here that Mr de Kock is the only person you saw hitting the deceased? MR BOSCH No, Sir, I said in my ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Assaulting or hitting? ADV SANDI Assaulting. MR BOSCH No, I said Mr de Kock was hitting him with the pool cue and then afterwards when I went back to the canteen, I saw van Heerden and Botha busy strangling him, tubing him. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Did you at any stage notice blood on the deceased? MR BOSCH No, Sir, no I did not. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED