amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-06 PRETORIA 2 ADRIAN DAVID BAKER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53681&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99090616_pre_990907pt.htm MR BOOYENS Booyens on record, Mr Chairman, I call Mr Dave Baker. MR SIBANYONI Afrikaans or English speaking? MR BAKER English, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI Can you put your names on record. ADRIAN DAVID BAKER (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Sworn in, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I've got available - unfortunately at one stage my attorney has handed to the Members of the Amnesty Committee, the Witness Protection Unit, copies of Schedule 7 and the ones that the Committee has got has got a few typographical errors in it. The content is substantially the same, I've just got some improved copies of Schedule 7, which appears at page 254, available. May I ask leave to hand that up. We'll make them available to my colleagues as well. Mr Baker, the body of your amnesty application, including the initial hand-written copy, starts at page 231 of the volume, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And then subsequent to that, from page 238 it basically just sets out your history, your beliefs etc., etc., is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And also at page 252, the broader political objectives etc., is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm that as being correct? MR BAKER I do so, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Now take Schedule 7 of the improved document in front of you. We are dealing with the death of Mr Moses Ntehelang, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS In giving the details you tell the Committee about an operation in Swaziland where all the white members have been to and this operation did not succeed, you didn't get what you wanted, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS We have heard that the members then drove back, shall we call it "pub-crawling", stopping at various places and having some drinks, would you confirm that? It's not in the document here. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Very well. And on your return to Vlakplaas, the members went into the canteen, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS At some stage when you were in the canteen, what did you observe, Mr Baker? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, I observed - the deceased came in and went to speak to Col de Kock inside the canteen, where he and some of the other members were. I then heard some raised voices and the assault on the deceased commenced. I was not aware of the reason for the assault at that stage. MR BOOYENS I see. And what did you do, Mr Baker? MR BAKER When the assault commenced I did not have anything to do with what was happening and I walked out of the canteen. MR BOOYENS Did you see anybody else outside? MR BAKER Outside I noticed Capt Bellingan, who had also been in the canteen earlier, outside the canteen. MR BOOYENS Now did you at all return to the canteen that evening? MR BAKER No, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Did you go home then? Mr Baker, I think you have said it already, but why did you walk out of the canteen at that stage? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, we'd all been drinking and I didn't feel that the canteen was the place ...(indistinct) the time to question people. MR BOOYENS I see. So you didn't want to have anything to do with what was going on? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS What you saw commencing was an assault, somebody was being hit, why didn't you interfere, why didn't you go and speak to the people? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, I don't think it was in my place to interfere at that stage. MR BOOYENS And at that stage obviously, you didn't know that this would result in the death of the man, is that correct? When you walked out. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Now subsequently you heard that the deceased had died, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS You also heard that Mr Ras had taken the body away. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Now this is not mentioned in your application, but during consultations with me, did I mention to you that Mr de Kock mentioned yesterday that he instructed you to open a missing persons file, something of that nature? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman, when it was mentioned to me it was my recollection that I had to do that. MR BOOYENS At the time when you were giving your attorney instructions about the drafting of this, or did that slip your memory? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And now Mr Baker, you also had a duty as a policeman, at least theoretically, to (a) prevent crime and to (b) report crimes that came to your knowledge. In this instance you did not do so, why not? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. There was a perceived fear amongst us that anybody who spoke of irregularities at the farm, might endanger their own life in the process. MR BOOYENS And in any case, if this matter was reported and so on - we heard from Mr de Kock yesterday, that even if reported, the probabilities were that it would have been covered up. Do you agree with that? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And even if - but assuming the theoretical possibility that an investigation did get off the ground, what would the effect of that have been on the entire Vlakplaas operation? Let's say the Moses Ntehelang thing went through the regular channels like it was supposed to and it ended up in a court of law as a murder/culpable homicide case, what would the effect of that have been in your opinion? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, Vlakplaas operations would have come to an end and the role which we were playing in the furtherance of State security would have been terminated and we felt that this would have fell into the hands of the ANC, because this Counter-Insurgency Unit at that stage was one of the best in the country. MR BOOYENS Would it also be correct, Mr Baker, to say that this was a general attitude about not talking about what happens at Vlakplaas, it wasn't only pertaining to this incident. Vlakplaas - Mr de Kock said yesterday the tradition was, Vlakplaas members were simply not expected to talk about what happens at Vlakplaas, incidents that happened at Vlakplaas and so on. This was a sort of a general rule, you just don't talk and you don't report if any irregularities happen. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Doesn't it go a lot wider than that, Mr Baker? We have heard so much evidence about operations by Vlakplaas all over the country, totally illegal operations, assassinations, murders and Vlakplaas never talked, they thought this was their duty, they were performing their duty to safeguard the country and although they knew as policemen, that a lot of the things they were doing were illegal, it was part of their function and you didn't report anything. It wasn't just incidents at Vlakplaas you didn't report. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman, we didn't talk about anything that Vlakplaas Unit did as a whole. MR BOOYENS And do you confirm the balance of your amnesty application, the rest of your amnesty application? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible). Right. ADV SANDI Mr Baker had finished his evidence-in-chief, not so? MR BOOYENS Yes, Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH I think I've got to commence cross-examination, Mr Chairman. Hattingh on record. Mr Baker, you were second-in-command at Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH And what was your rank at the time of this incident? MR BAKER I was a Captain, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH Now you heard the evidence of Mr Bosch, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH That you had a counter-intelligence ability at Vlakplaas. MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH And was he in charge of that? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH Why in your opinion, was that necessary, Mr Baker? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, we were working with people who had turned from their previous ideologies, there's always the perceived and real problem of them turning again and we had to monitor their progress to see that they were not busy playing double roles, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH Now did the information that was picked up - well we heard Mr Bosch's evidence that they installed listening devices at the two telephones that were used by the askaris, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH And did you have access to those recordings, did you listen to them? MR BAKER No, Mr Chairman, I did not listen to them. MR HATTINGH And did you read the transcripts, the translated transcripts? MR BAKER On occasion, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH Yes. As far as Mr Ntehelang is concerned, had you received any information about the possibility that he might have been in the process of changing allegiance? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman, we were starting we disciplinary problems with him, at times he wouldn't turn up for work. CHAIRPERSON Did that indicate that he was changing or that he was just losing interest? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, I think at that stage his disciplinary problems - he was well disciplined initially and this was contrary to his normal behaviour, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH Were you ever a group leader of groups of askaris that were sent out into various regions? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, I usually used to go and visit the groups, I was never myself a group leader. MR HATTINGH Right. So you didn't have as much personal contact with the askaris as the group leaders did? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR ROSSOUW I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR BOTHA Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Cornelius, Mr Chairman, just two questions. Mr Baker, when you drew this second supplement, was it just to make it easier or were there certain amendments made to your original amnesty application? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, there were just spelling errors and that type of thing. MR CORNELIUS Now I refer you to page 255 of your original amnesty application. In the second paragraph you say "As I walked out I noticed Capt Bellingan who had also been in the canteen early on, walking towards his car." Do you see that? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS But I note on the application you handed in, on page 18 you omit saying "... walking towards his car." MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman, that was just a ... MR CORNELIUS Did he go and fetch anything in his car or don't you know? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, I'm not sure, I think he left at that stage, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS Because there's evidence earlier on that Mr Bellingan had fetched the tube which was used to tube Mr Ntehelang. MR BAKER Mr Chairman, I don't know anything about that. MR CORNELIUS I see. Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR JANSEN Thank you, Mr Chair. Jansen on record, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI When did you eventually leave Vlakplaas on that night? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, my recollection is when I left the canteen. I think I had left just after that. MR SIBANYONI Approximately what was the time? MR BAKER I'm not sure, Mr Chairman, I have no recollection of the time that this incident happened. MR SIBANYONI Did you leave alone or were there any members of Vlakplaas who also left? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, I left in my own vehicle. MR CORNELIUS At what stage - where was the deceased by that time when you left the farm? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, when I left the canteen he was still in the canteen. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions. ADV SANDI Did you know anything about the family of the deceased? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, as far as I can recollect his family stayed somewhere in the Kuruman area. ADV SANDI Did you personally have any contact with them? MR BAKER No, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Do you know if anyone within the ranks of the Security Police was in contact with the family, the mother for example? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, the members stationed at Kuruman Security Branch had contact with the family. ADV SANDI Did you have contact with the Security Police at Kuruman? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Was there any reason why you didn't go home earlier? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, we were sitting drinking in the canteen at that stage and as far as I can recall, we'd all been told to stay on the farm. CHAIRPERSON Who by? MR BAKER By Col de Kock, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So as far as you can recall, Col de Kock had told you all to stay on the farm, that is after your return from a three day expedition to Swaziland and the Eastern Transvaal? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Did he give any reason? MR BAKER No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And that is why you didn't go home? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI When you - at the moment you left, did you tell him that you're now leaving? MR BAKER No, Mr Chairman, I went out of the canteen and then I went to my car and left. MR SIBANYONI How did you know that you could then leave? MR BAKER Could you please repeat that? MR SIBANYONI How did you know that it was then time for you, that you can then leave? Because previously you had been requested to be on the farm. MR BAKER No, I just decided then that I wanted to leave. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON You wanted to get away from this? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON As far as you were concerned, this was a totally unjustified incident? MR BAKER Mr Chairman yes, I didn't regard it as being the time or the place. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Oh sorry. MR BOOYENS No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR BOOYENS I call as my next witness, Mr Bellingan. CHAIRPERSON Before you do that, can I raise one point, which I was going to raise before this witness has now - I meant to ask to recall Mr Ras, because I understand from his statement that he also was told that he must stay at Vlakplaas. And also to recall the witness who gave evidence yesterday, and I'm afraid at the moment I haven't checked his name, who in the course of his evidence said he had a function at home that night and wanted to ...(intervention) MR ROSSOUW It is Snyders in fact, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ... that he was told by Mr de Kock not to go. We've now had the third witness on that point. Is it necessary to recall those two applicants or do you gentlemen all accept that that is what they have said in their statements? Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH We're prepared to accept what they said in their statements, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well then, I don't think it will be ...(intervention) MR JANSEN Mr Chairman, if you could just refer me to the exact passage which you're referring to. CHAIRPERSON The top of page 265. "... gevra of ons verskoon kan word. Capt du Plessis mentioned that he had to complete another essay for his studies. De Kock refused." MR JANSEN Ja, that's the statement of Snyders. CHAIRPERSON Snyders, yes. And Ras is at - perhaps it wasn't Ras. No, it's not Ras, sorry. MR JANSEN Mr Chairman, if you were referring to a passage or something, an incident prior or during the assault of Ntehelang, you must remember that Ras was at that stage not there, he only arrived at the farm after the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON After the assault, yes. MR JANSEN So it could only have been at that stage and I don't think there's anything to that effect. CHAIRPERSON No, this wasn't Ras - well we'll leave it, we've got Snyders. MR JANSEN Yes. MR SIBANYONI Mr Chairperson, was it not Mr Bosch who said he didn't return with the group, but he was told that he should join the group at Vlakplaas? CHAIRPERSON No, we'll leave it there.