amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-28 PRETORIA 2 PIETER HENDRIK BOTHA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53709&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_990928pt.htm MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, with the Commission's permission, I have spoken to my learned colleagues and none of them have an objection. I would like to call the applicant Mr Botha, who was one of the footsoldiers, but he's got commitments and unfortunately that makes it very difficult for him, and with the Commission's permission, I would like to call him at this stage. My learned friends have indicated that they've got no objections. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR BOOYENS Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Your full names, Mr Botha? Your full names? MR BOTHA Pieter Hendrik Botha. PIETER HENDRIK BOTHA (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Thank you, you may be seated, sworn in Mr Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Botha, your amnesty application commences on page 327 of the record, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes. MR BOOYENS And you deal with this incident specifically from page 346? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS You are applying for amnesty for all offences which may be related to the elimination of the four who you refer to as the four unknown cadres at that stage? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS For the sake of completion, we will lead your evidence later, but do you know how many persons actually died there, from your own knowledge? MR BOTHA No. MR BOOYENS Was it hearsay that you thought that there were four persons? MR BOTHA That is correct. INTERPRETER The applicant's microphone is not on. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm the correctness of your application up to and including page 345? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR SIBANYONI Mr Botha, your microphone. MR BOOYENS I think I better start again, Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Botha, you have the amnesty application before you which appears from page 327, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And you summarise your background on page 345? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR BOTHA Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS And then on page 346 you deal with this particular case? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS And you are applying for any offences, omissions or deeds which may emanate from the eliminate of the four unknown cadres as you put it, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes. MR BOOYENS Did you have any personal knowledge of the number of persons who died during the incident? MR BOTHA No, I did not. MR BOOYENS So it was hearsay? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS On page 347 you state that it was during 1987, 1988, when you made your application, did you know what the correct date was? MR BOTHA No. MR BOOYENS You have heard the evidence of Brig Oosthuizen who states that it was during February 1989, do you accept that as correct? MR BOTHA Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS At that stage you were stationed at Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes. MR BOOYENS And a number of you were called together at a stage by Col de Kock, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes. MR BOOYENS And what did Col de Kock tell you, why was he convening you? MR BOTHA He said that we should prepare ourselves for a cross-border operation in Swaziland and that the objective of the operation would be to eliminate ANC terrorists. Do you want me to address you about my particular share in this matter? MR BOOYENS No, just continue with what Mr de Kock told you. MR BOTHA Upon that, we departed, after we had packed everything, we went through the Oshoek border post and used false passports. MR BOOYENS Just a moment, he said that you were supposed to set up an ambush for a number of ANC terrorists? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS At that stage, did he provide any particulars about what these persons were doing, just briefly? MR BOTHA Well, he told us that they were ANC terrorists, who were going to infiltrate the country and that we had to stop them from doing so. MR BOOYENS Did he say anything about an order which came from a higher level? MR BOTHA Yes, he said that it was an authorised operation. MR BOOYENS Very well. You have given evidence during other hearings as well, but let us just re-examine this. You were a member of Vlakplaas, what was your rank? MR BOTHA Warrant Officer. MR BOOYENS Was there any way in which you could study the Intelligence which would have come from D-Section? MR BOTHA No, it was not possible for me. MR BOOYENS Did you work on the pre-supposition that information which came to you from the Intelligence section was correct and verified? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS You received the order, you were told what it was, that they were ANC terrorists who wanted to infiltrate the country, and were you satisfied then that under those circumstances, it would be the sort of operation that fell within the operational field of Vlakplaas? MR BOTHA Yes, I was satisfied with that. MR BOOYENS Very well. You then went through the border post with false passports, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS You are aware of the most recent decision by the Appeals Court? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS However, I think it might just be advisable just to describe briefly the role that you played, if anybody else wishes to put anything to you about it, they may, is it correct that you and Mr Baker were basically in Mbabane to observe when the persons who were coming through from the Transvaal, would make contact with the askaris? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS The contact persons that they had to make contact with, were apparently ANC persons but actually askaris who pretended to be ANC members? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS You and Mr Baker were supposed to contact Mr de Kock and the others via radio as soon as contact had been established? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS These persons were late, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes. MR BOOYENS And it has already been put, did you then take any steps to contact Mr de Kock and the others by radio? MR BOTHA Yes, initially we tried to contact them by radio, but if I recall correctly, we were in Manzini. We could not establish contact, it was a mountainous region, and therefore we had to drive around in the vicinity, in the scene of the incident in order to find a place to make contact with them from. MR BOOYENS I put this to Mr Coetzee this morning, you may have heard that at one stage he was called by telephone and asked where the persons were? MR BOTHA Yes, after we had made contact, our instructions were to contact the Johannesburg number to determine what had happened. I made the call and I spoke to Capt Coetzee, he told me that the code name Flower Arrangement, was late. MR BOOYENS Very well, did you return to Manzini? MR BOTHA Yes, we did. MR BOOYENS And what happened then, just very briefly? MR BOTHA In Manzini, we saw somewhat later, how they established contact and we also saw the Opel Kadett being led away on the road which had been indicated to them. MR BOOYENS Led by whom? MR BOTHA By two of our members. MR BOOYENS In another vehicle? MR BOTHA Yes. MR BOOYENS And did they then drive in the direction of the scene of the ambush? MR BOTHA Yes. MR BOOYENS Did you and Baker drive passed them? MR BOTHA Yes, we had to at one point. MR BOOYENS Did you then give the radio signal that the people were being led in? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS Apparently Mr Baker knew where they were supposed to turn off? MR BOTHA Yes, he knew where the scene was and he also managed the radio because I did the driving. MR BOOYENS You then drove passed the point and stopped? MR BOTHA Yes, we drove passed the point and then stopped after we had made radio contact. MR BOOYENS Did you see them turn off? MR BOTHA No, we did not see them turn off. MR BOOYENS But they were no longer behind you? MR BOTHA No. We accepted that the other vehicle which was driven by the askaris, would lead them to the place. MR BOOYENS That is the last that you had to do with it? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS And then the following day you went back over the border post? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm the rest of your amnesty application? MR BOTHA Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR HATTINGH Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, we have no questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chairman, Cornelius on behalf of implicated party, Vermeulen. I refer you to page 348 of your amnesty application, if you look at the second last paragraph where you say that if you are not mistaken, you mention a list of names of persons who were involved in the incident, I assume that this was quite some time ago and you may be mistaken as to Mr Vermeulen's presence or not. MR BOTHA Do you want to know if I am mistaken? MR CORNELIUS Yes. MR BOTHA Yes, it is possible. MR CORNELIUS If Snyman had been there, it would sound more correct? MR BOTHA That is correct. Yes, I confirm it as such. MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR NEL Nel, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman, Rossouw. Mr Botha, may I refer you to page 348 as well, the very same paragraph to which Mr Cornelius has referred you to, there you state the name of Warrant Officer Nortje. Is it possible that with regard to his presence, you may also be mistaken? MR BOTHA Yes, it is also possible. MR ROSSOUW Very well, and then just for the purposes of the record, Mr Chairman, I am in possession of an affidavit by Mr Nortje, which states that he was not involved in the planning or the execution of this operation, and I will hand it in to the Committee at a later stage, once copies have been made available for all my colleagues. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR BOTHA Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA MR VISSER Visser, Mr Chairman, neither do I, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden Mr Chairman, I've got one question. Mr Botha, how many persons were in the Opel Kadett vehicle? MR BOTHA As I have stated earlier, I will have to rely on hearsay when I say that three were shot dead there. It is my understanding when we left the scene, that there were four persons, but at the stage when we passed the vehicle, I was driving at a very high speed and I cannot really tell you whether there were three, four or maybe even five persons inside the vehicle. MR VAN HEERDEN That is all I want to know, I just want to know if you know how many people there were in the vehicle, thank you very much Mr Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN MR SIBANYONI Mr Botha, I don't know whether I misunderstood you, you said these ANC people in actual fact met the askaris, they didn't meet the ANC? MR BOTHA Well, sir, if I have to elaborate on that, when they met the people at the post office in Manzini, the two askaris that met them, was as far as they knew, were ANC members. That is all I knew, and that is all they could have known. MR SIBANYONI And these askaris were from Vlakplaas? MR BOTHA Yes, they were. MR SIBANYONI Would you say they were completely set up, it was not an actual meeting between the students and the ANC? MR BOTHA Well, as far as I know it was an interception of them, how the planning worked, I cannot elaborate. What I do know is I knew them connecting with them and taking them from there. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I am a bit confused. Had they just arrived from South Africa? MR BOTHA Sir, I really don't know whether they had just arrived. We just knew they would come along that point. CHAIRPERSON But you were waiting for them there? MR BOTHA Yes, we were. CHAIRPERSON And when they didn't come and they were late, you phoned up Johannesburg and were told they had left late? MR BOTHA Yes, then we were told they left late. CHAIRPERSON So it would appear they were on their way in from South Africa? MR BOTHA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And they met these askaris and were taken straight to the point of ambush? MR BOTHA Yes, that is the way I saw it, sir. ADV SANDI I take it that from what you have just said, you are not able to say as to whether these ANC activists from the Republic of South Africa had met any other person before meeting the two askaris at the post office? MR BOTHA No, I am unable to say sir. ADV SANDI If it had happened, would you have known? MR BOTHA No, there is no way I could have known sir. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR BOOYENS No re-examination, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON You are excused on condition that if it should become necessary to recall you, arrangements can be made. MR BOTHA Thanks a lot sir. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, I am indebted to the Committee for the indulgence granted to me. WITNESS EXCUSED