amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-28 PRETORIA 2 DEON ANDRE ELS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53712&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_990928pt.htm MR VISSER Next I call Deon Andre Els, whose application you will find in the Bundle, on page 174 to 182 and in regard to which... CHAIRPERSON Sorry, could I ask one question to the previous ... MR VISSER Yes, could he just be recalled. CHAIRPERSON I just would like to confirm what you say in your application, if you still agree with it, that one of the reasons for you monitoring the border post at Oshoek was to make sure that Mohale didn't travel with a larger group of people than was expected? MR SNYMAN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You were specifically there to make sure that only the expected three people travelled through in that vehicle? MR SNYMAN That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson, for drawing the attention to that, I have forgotten about that. That is important. CHAIRPERSON I think it is relevant. MR VISSER It is very relevant. I should have mentioned it. MR SIBANYONI Your full names please? MR ELS Deon Andre Els. DEON ANDRE ELS (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Thank you, please be seated, sworn in Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I am instructed by my Attorney that he has a summary of the witness' evidence which I would ask you to kindly mark Exhibit H, it is I that we have a problem with, H. Mr Chairman, if I may lead the witness then. Mr Els, you are an applicant and you request amnesty with regard to the incident which took place on the 12th/13th of February 1989 in Swaziland, for your participance before, during or after the incident? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Your application is in the Bundle and the incident is dealt with on page 176 to 177, is that correct? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And in paragraph 7(a) and (b) of your amnesty application, which is indicated to you now, you gave the answers "not applicable"? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What is the correct position there? Were you a supporter of a political party in this regard? MR ELS That is correct, of the National Party. MR VISSER May I ask for an indulgence again to ask for a similar amendment for 7(a) to read "National Party" and 7(b) to read "supporter". CHAIRPERSON Granted. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. You have studied Exhibit A, is that correct? MR ELS That is correct. MR VISSER Is there any part of Exhibit A which you do not have any personal knowledge of? MR ELS No Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you request that the evidence embodied in there as well as the evidence to which there is reference made to in Exhibit A, be incorporated in your evidence? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER This is the first time that you give evidence before the Amnesty Committee? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Similarly as Mr Snyman, you were in the same group, Group D during 1989 at Security Head Office, attached to Group D, is that correct? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And there you were an Intelligence Co-ordinator? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And your Commander immediately above you was Col Willem Coetzee, the first applicant this morning, Brig Alfred Oosthuizen the second applicant and the third applicant, Maj-Gen Gerrit Erasmus, is that correct, who was the Head of the Group? MR ELS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER You have had insight into the statements of Brig Schoon and Col Coetzee with regard to the facts and background which is the run up to this incident? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And you request that that evidence be incorporated into your application? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER In paragraph 5 you say during the first week of February you formed part of an Intelligence Unit who collected Intelligence with regard to actions and movements of certain leader elements in Sansco, you are referring to these three persons here now? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You were informed that an operation would take place against these persons in Swaziland and this entailed their elimination as soon as they arrived in Swaziland? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And you then associated yourself with this decision from the viewpoint of what you regarded as your task as a police official and in the light of the political struggle of the past? MR ELS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Please refer to paragraph 5, what your specific role was in this operation? MR ELS Chairperson, my specific role under instructions from Lt-Col Coetzee was to man a static point on the main road to Swaziland at Delmas. My task was to monitor the suspected vehicle, if it should pass there. MR VISSER Was it also part of your task to control the occupants of this vehicle? MR ELS Chairperson, my task was only to monitor the vehicle because the vehicle would pass me at a great speed and to see if I could see how many occupants were in the vehicle. MR VISSER And did you have to report the number of occupants then? MR ELS Yes. MR VISSER Who would you report this to? MR ELS I would report this to Col Coetzee. MR VISSER Were you aware of where you could find him on this day? MR ELS That is correct. MR VISSER Was a description of the vehicle given to you? MR ELS Yes, it was. MR VISSER I beg your pardon, please continue. MR ELS A white Opel Kadett. MR VISSER And did this vehicle pass you at any point in time there at Delmas where you manned this stationary point? MR ELS Chairperson, the vehicle at no stage passed me. MR VISSER Did you at any stage after this incident, visit Vlakplaas during February 1989? MR ELS No Chairperson. The morning of the operation, I did visit Vlakplaas, the morning before the operation. MR VISSER Very well, and what was the purpose of that visit? MR ELS Chairperson, the purpose of that visit was to supply the newest information to the staff there. My specific function during that visit was one of accompaniment and during the planning and discussions, Mr Snyman and I waited outside. MR VISSER Who else besides yourself and Mr Snyman went to Vlakplaas on this morning? MR ELS Brig Andre Oosthuizen, Col Coetzee and Snyman. MR VISSER It was the four of you? MR ELS That is correct. MR VISSER Were you at all involved on the level of management in the giving of instructions and taking decisions at that stage? MR ELS No Chairperson. MR VISSER Was it mentioned to you that the operation was authorised? MR ELS Yes. MR VISSER And who told you authorised the operation? MR ELS Brig Oosthuizen as well as Col Coetzee informed me about it. MR VISSER Was it told to you who gave the authorisation in Group D? That is paragraph 10 of your statement? MR ELS That it was authorised by Gen Erasmus. MR VISSER And you had no doubt, you had no reason to doubt this? MR ELS Not at all Chairperson ... (tape ends) ... MR VISSER ... at the stage and the political objective which you had when you participated in this incident and your association with the elimination of these persons, and committing or defeating the ends of justice, that is where you set it out and do you confirm that under oath, that that is still your evidence and that you request the Committee to consider it as such when considering your application with regard to Section 20 of the Act? MR ELS That is correct. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR HATTINGH Hattingh Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH MR BOOYENS Booyens, no questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS MR CORNELIUS Cornelius, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS MR NEL Nel Mr Chairman, no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL MR ROSSOUW Rossouw Mr Chairman, no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW MR BOTHA Botha Mr Chairman, no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON I have a question. You were waiting for this vehicle to pass you near Delmas? MR ELS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What time did you expect it to arrive? MR ELS Chairperson, in our analysis I departed just after seven, and waited along the road. As far as I know it would have been between eight or nine of the morning that the vehicle would pass there. CHAIRPERSON Did you leave Vlakplaas at about seven o'clock? MR ELS Chairperson, it may have been before seven, but my vehicle was in the centre of town and I had to get to my vehicle in order to get to Delmas. We departed to Vlakplaas in one vehicle and afterwards we drove back to our vehicles again. CHAIRPERSON So you had been to Vlakplaas and returned by the time you left at seven o'clock in the morning? MR ELS Chairperson, if I am not mistaken about the time, but I believe that is more or less the time. CHAIRPERSON And you expected them at eight or nine, did you say? MR ELS Between eight and nine o'clock, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But they did not come and you had to eventually report they hadn't passed you? MR ELS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You weren't told anything about them being delayed? MR ELS No. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, in the chronological order of things, you have now been taken right up to the boundary but not over the boundary, and I assume that the logical first person to go now, would be Mr Eugene de Kock to tell you what happened there. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, I call Mr de Kock. CHAIRPERSON I don't know what you gentlemen think, but we seem to have done very well, time wise, so far, do you want to start him now or ... MR HATTINGH Not necessarily Mr Chairman, in fact I would prefer to start tomorrow if possible. CHAIRPERSON What is the attitude of the rest of you? MR BOOYENS I would be happy with the suggestion by Mr Hattingh? MR CORNELIUS I agree as well. MR VISSER I would welcome it Mr Chairman, give my cough a rest. CHAIRPERSON Half past nine, gentlemen? We now adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS