amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-29 PRETORIA 3 EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK MURDERS OF K P SHABANGU, T MOHALE & D MASHOBANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53713&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_990929pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Gentlemen, before we start today's proceedings, I would like to tell you that one of the Members of the Committee has to attend a conference in another capacity this afternoon, so we will be adjourning at three thirty. I'm telling you this now if you want to start making other arrangements for yourselves. I see I should have said, lady and gentlemen. Right, shall we continue. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, with your leave I call Mr de Kock. MR SIBANYONI Mr de Kock, I know that your full names of Eugene Alexander de Kock. Do you confirm this? EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock, you are an applicant in terms of this incident, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Your application appears from page 1 to page 9 of the bundle, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH At the time of this incident you were the Commander of Vlakplaas. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And you have also heard the evidence of the other applicants who have testified thus far, is that correct? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you have also studied their written documents of application? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH On previous occasions you have also had the opportunity to study Exhibit A, the general background, which upon previous occasions has also been served as an exhibit. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you have also heard to what extent it has been amended for the purposes of this application. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And insofar as you have knowledge of it, do you confirm the correctness of the allegations embodied therein? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH As with previous cases, you have also prepared a supplementary affidavit regarding Vlakplaas, which has been submitted before the Committee. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you once again confirm the correctness of the allegations embodied therein. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH With regard to this incident, Mr de Kock, you were approached to offer assistance in connection with the elimination of so-called activists, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And what is your recollection regarding the incident? How were you approached, by whom were you approached? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, there was a meeting at Vlakplaas. My recollection was that Brig Schoon and Gen Gerrit Erasmus were there, as well as Oosthuizen and Coetzee. MR HATTINGH Very well. And that would be the first meeting to which has been referred as a planning session? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH You've heard the evidence given by Gen Erasmus and Brig Schoon, that as far as they recall they were not present during that occasion. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH But that it is possible that they may have been at Vlakplaas at other times and that it was at those times that they may have discussed the matter with you. MR DE KOCK Yes, it is possible. MR HATTINGH Is it possible that they are correct with that? MR DE KOCK Yes, there is a probability. There is also the probability of confusion. MR HATTINGH Whatever the case may be, at some or other stage you were approached by these gentlemen, Messrs Oosthuizen and Coetzee and possibly on another occasion also Gen Erasmus and Brig Schoon. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And what was the purpose of their approach to you? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that a group of persons be selected, or that there was a group of persons who intended to journey to a neighbouring State ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH Is that Swaziland? MR DE KOCK Yes, Swaziland. They intended to journey there for the purposes of training. The training was of a military nature for the promotion of the objectives of the African National Congress, once again, in the Republic. The promotion of those objectives was of a military nature. MR HATTINGH Very well, Mr de Kock. In your application on page 3 of the bundle, you state very briefly "With regard to this I wish to indicate that the activists according to Coetzee's information, were members of the ANC ..." INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR HATTINGH I'm sorry. Has it been off all along, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON No, it's just gone off now. MR HATTINGH Thank you. I will read it once again. On page 3 you state "In this regard I wish to indicate that the activists, according to Coetzee's information, were members of the ANC and we were informed that they would attend this meeting with the purpose of undergoing training as so-called freedom fighters, along with the purpose of promoting the ANC internally." MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And that is all that you state in your application regarding the political objective which existed for this operation. Is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But you have heard the evidence which was given by Messrs Oosthuizen, Coetzee and so forth, which indicates that they possessed extensive information in this regard. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And that they discussed it in general with you. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Upon more than one occasion? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Do you confirm that this is what took place? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Can you recall everything that they told you in regard to this? MR DE KOCK No, but it would have been thorough by nature because the reason and the motivation of my members would have been important and I would have had to inform them as well. MR HATTINGH At that time when the motivation for the operation was extended to you, did you pass any judgement regarding the necessity of such an operation? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, that is correct. Because it was of such a nature that it would lead to terrorism, it was of a military nature and after training it would have been of application within the Republic. And then, it was also our prescribed task not only to deal with terrorists and terrorism, to trace them, but also to combat them. MR HATTINGH So you were of the conviction that an action against them was necessary. MR DE KOCK Yes, there was no doubt in my mind. MR HATTINGH Was any explanation given to you as to why it was necessary to eliminate them, as far as you can recall? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And this information which these gentlemen gave you, did you regard it as correct and true? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH The request to you to assist was actually an order, not so? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And you heard that they said that they had obtained the information and that they undertaken the planning and the decision making and then requested Vlakplaas to serve as the operational wing of this operation. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And is that how you regarded the nature of this order? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you then plan the action? MR DE KOCK Yes, I did. MR HATTINGH And did you instruct any of your soldiers at Vlakplaas to assist with this operation? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And did you ultimately depart to Swaziland to carry out the operation there? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you know previously how many persons would be involved in this operation on the side of the activists? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, initially something was said of 16 or 17 activists, that would be a kombi full of activists, but it was later with the second meeting at Vlakplaas that it was said that these persons would be given a vehicle and that they would five activists. The number of the vehicle and a description thereof was given to me and I then furnished my members with this in turn, and after the shooting I found that there had actually been three persons within the vehicle. MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock, in the light of the Appeal Court's decision, the events in Swaziland as such are not of vital relevance for this investigation, but just to complete the picture, did you then set up an ambush for these persons in Swaziland? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. However, I would like to add that with the exception of the Court's decision, I have no problem of providing the details of what took place in Swaziland here today for the purposes of the family and for the purposes of the TRC record and future reference. MR HATTINGH Very well. Who in Swaziland was to meet the people there in order to lead them into the ambush? MR DE KOCK Two of the former members of the ANC, who were more commonly known as askaris, would then wait for this group of activists at a post office in Manzini. I'm speaking under correction, but I think it was there in Manzini. This information regarding the rendezvous point was provided to me by Mr Coetzee and up to that point we had the information indicating that the activists would depart, cross the border and then establish contact with these two askaris at the post office. And from that point onwards the arrangements were my responsibility, in terms of leading them to an ambush point and their ultimate elimination. MR HATTINGH Now these askaris, were they tasked specifically to lead these persons into the ambush? MR DE KOCK Yes, the reason why the askaris were used is because they used camp language and camp language is the general language that was used in ANC camps. This was also for the sake of authenticity, so that everything would appear authentic. MR HATTINGH Can you recall who these two askaris were, Mr de Kock? MR DE KOCK One was Geoff Bosigo, the other I am uncertain of and I don't wish to add his name to this, but I think it was Magopa. MR HATTINGH Chris Magopa? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Very well. Did you make any arrangements with regard to persons who had to undertake observation in the vicinity? MR DE KOCK Yes. We had moved into a foreign State, they also had police, a Security Police and a Defence Force and their own Intelligence Division. I had persons positioned on the road who would notify us of increased action, for example if there was any police of Defence Force actions. The reason for that is that the area in which we were to launch the ambush was a plantation area, as the most of Swaziland is, and surrounding those plantations there is a multitude of fire towers. MR HATTINGH Do you mean look-out towers? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. And these towers would be manned on a 24-hourly basis by persons who among others, would have binoculars. So the slightest sign of smoke would be reported in order to prevent an entire plantation from burning down. So in that respect I had to have an additional ring of people around me who would give us timeous warning if there was any problem of being discovered. MR HATTINGH Was the place for the ambush selected prior to the incident? MR DE KOCK Yes, it was a place that I had selected quite a long time ago as a rendezvous point in the event of use being trapped and having to move out and having to hide in the bushes, if I have to put it that way. MR HATTINGH And those who had to undertake the shooting so to speak, did they have to be dropped off before the time? MR DE KOCK Yes, we couldn't park any vehicles there for fear of being discovered by someone in a lookout tower or a patrol. We could move into the plantation, but we could not take the vehicle with us. MR HATTINGH So the vehicle dropped you off and departed again? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And you then took up position there and waited for the two askaris who were travelling in a separate vehicle? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And they would then be followed by the activists in a second vehicle? MR DE KOCK That is correct, and then some of my men who were equipped with radios would observe the rendezvous and report to me in time what was happening. We couldn't give the askaris any radios because it may have drawn attention and we did not want to take that risk. MR HATTINGH Was anything reported via radio that these persons were late, that they had not arrived? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, because according to the time calculation and the departure of these activists, this operation would have taken place between six and seven that evening, in order to give us enough time again to go through Oshoek by 10 o'clock, in other words to get out of the country completely. MR HATTINGH Was that the closing time for the border post? MR DE KOCK That is correct. And this shooting took place between nine and ten that night and we didn't have the opportunity to cross the border back into South Africa in time. MR HATTINGH Do you know with whom, if anyone, these activists had liaison on Swaziland? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did these two vehicles arrive eventually? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And I understand that the place which was selected was a so-called cul-de-sac. MR DE KOCK That is correct. The area was of such a nature that except for the elements of surprise on our side, it would have been impossible for them to escape. MR HATTINGH And did you then appear when these vehicles arrived at the ambush point and did you open fire? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And did you take any steps to ensure that these people had been killed? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. I also had to count the number of people to make sure that we had everyone. I expected five, but I found only three in the vehicle. I was furnished with an AKM47, which is an AK that doesn't have a butt, it has a silencer. I removed my glove from my left hand and on the back left where the windows had been shot out, I found a person who was gasping for breath. I pressed my pinkie against the person's eyelids and felt a fluttering and I shot him twice through the head. I then moved to the person who was seated in front on the left and did the same. I found no signs of life of any nature there. MR HATTINGH When you say that you did the same, do you mean that you also touched his eyelids? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And that is why you did not shoot him? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR DE KOCK Then I moved to the driver's side, opened the door and did the same and also found no signs of life there. We couldn't use any torches or any forms of light under no circumstances, because that would also have created some sense of warning for the person in the lookout tower. MR HATTINGH What did you do after that? MR DE KOCK There was an envelope with documentation which was sealed, it was given to me in a bag. I'm not certain if I left it under a person or whether I placed it in a case which was in the vehicle, but one of those two took place. The nature of the documentation is unknown to me, except that according to my understanding it was misinformation which was later then on a strategic basis, used to place the activists in a position of disfavour. MR HATTINGH Did you depart after that? MR DE KOCK Yes, we departed. We repacked the weapons into the vehicle with its false compartments. We tried to cross the border at Oshoek illegally by pressing the wire fence down and driving over, but there had been very heavy rains a few days before and a section of that area had changed since the last time I had been there and we struggled with the soil and the earth and the grass. We didn't have 4X4 vehicles to cover this terrain and we had to return because we couldn't get out and were making a lot of noise by trying to get out and it would have drawn unnecessary attention. We returned to our rented rooms and spent the night there. MR HATTINGH And then the following morning you went back to Vlakplaas through the border? MR DE KOCK Yes. I think that we were already up by six and as soon as the border post opened we went through. MR HATTINGH Did you later receive feedback regarding the incident? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, a day or two later a Capt Viktor of the Vehicle Branch contacted me, he was making enquiries and it appeared to me from our discussion that he had already made other enquiries, that he wanted to know whether I knew about an incident in Swaziland during which a vehicle had been involved. I denied it and then asked him for more particulars, and what he told me then was that it had been a police vehicle and I told him that I would also make enquiries, that we should perhaps keep the detail to ourselves first. Immediately after that telephone call I contacted Brig Schoon and informed him about the problem. I believe that he informed Gen Gerrit Erasmus about it, because shortly after that telephone call, Schoon and Erasmus arrived there along with Mr Coetzee. MR HATTINGH And was Mr Oosthuizen there? MR DE KOCK Yes, as far as I know. MR HATTINGH And was any plan formulated to deal with the problem? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, the agreement was that the vehicle would be duplicated in all aspects, including the colour of the seats, the radio and so forth. In other words, another vehicle of the same colour was obtained and it was furnished with the same seating and seat covers, the same year of issue. MR HATTINGH The number of that vehicle was changed in order to make it the same as that which was used in Swaziland. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH On the you succeeded in saying that the vehicle which was traced back to you was not the same as the one which - the vehicle which was traced back to you, you still had in your possession, it was not the same as the one in the SAP? MR DE KOCK "Dis reg, Voorsitter, die voertuig is nie na Vlakplaas terug gespoor nie, maar wat die SAP ..." ...(tussenbeide) MR HATTINGH Ja, na die SAP toe. Goed. MR DE KOCK Wahl du Toit was approached, he also came to Vlakplaas, but he didn't have anything to do with the discussion and he did not know what happened in Swaziland. MR HATTINGH As you have said he was the Head of the Technical Department and his department was called in to help with the duplication of the vehicle. MR DE KOCK That's correct. I received all the information about the vehicle from Capt Coetzee and I conveyed it to Wahl du Toit. I did not inform him that the vehicle was involved in a shooting incident or people had been killed. And I think approximately 24 hours later they brought a similar-looking vehicle to Vlakplaas and asked me if I was satisfied, and according to the description of the vehicle I said it looked good and informed Capt Coetzee to fetch the vehicle. MR HATTINGH You did not receive any reward for this operation? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You did not know the activists beforehand, so you did not have any feelings of vengeance towards them? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH One moment please. Mr de Kock, the firearms that you used, the AKs with the silencers, who supplied these? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the AKMs were of amounts of firearms which we brought back from Ovamboland and which were used for covert operations. The silencers were made for us by a company and they were paid for from the Police account and the ammunition was loaded by ourselves, to make it subsonic. MR HATTINGH We have heard evidence on other occasions to the effect that you were officially issued with passports and identity documents and so forth, did you use these documents when you moved through the border post? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, as well as my members. MR HATTINGH You then apply for amnesty for conspiracy to commit murder, defeating the ends of justice. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And for any offence with regard to crossing the border between Swaziland and the Republic of South Africa by using false documentation. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then you also request amnesty for any possible delicts which might flow from these actions. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR DE KOCK I would like to add, Chairperson, in my capacity as the Commander of Vlakplaas, I take responsibility for my own actions and for every member under my command, for any of their actions in that regard and I shall take responsibility for it. Thank you, Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chairperson. Were part of the instructions which were given to you that there was information that the people would not only receive training but that they would smuggle firearms back into the country? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, the information that was given to us was comprehensive and because of the amount of incidents that had taken place I cannot recall everything. MR BOOYENS And in your instructions to your members, did you in essence also summarise the information which was passed on to you by the Intelligence Division in regard to the reason and motivation was as to why these people had to be ambushed and killed? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS So your members who received instructions from you would have been under the impression that they were there, and let's use the term that was used in the past, that they had to act against ANC terrorists? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS If you would please page to page 5, Mr de Kock. Is it correct, Mr Bellingan told me that the role he played in this regard was that he drove the kombi with the false panels and he dropped off the members at the point where the ambush was set up and he moved out again with the kombi? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You did not know exactly how many people to expect, you expected a group of people in a motor vehicle, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. I would like to qualify that. The image that we had was that we would expect five people and afterwards it seemed as if there were only three. MR BOOYENS I have no further questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Chairperson, Cornelius. Mr de Kock, just a singular aspect. Mr Flores says that he reconnoitred the area where the ambush would take place with you. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, he was not the only one, but I took the persons one by one because as a group there you would have drawn attention. MR CORNELIUS And he says the reason why he went along was because Swaziland was his operational area. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairman, Nel on record. Mr de Kock, as you know I act for Mr Hanton. I would just like to clear up one thing. According to Mr Hanton he was tasked to, before the operation at Vlakplaas and after the shooting, to load the minibus, to load the firearms into the false panels and after the shooting incident he hid the weapons again into the false panels of the kombi, is that correct according to you recollection? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR NEL Thank you, Mr de Kock. Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR ROSSOUW Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA Thank you, Mr Chairman, Botha on record. Mr de Kock, I act for Mr Snyders. To clear up some confusion and for purposes of the record, Mr Snyders in his application refers that he reported to you that one of the persons were still alive in the vehicle, is it possible that he informed you as such and that is the reason why you went to the vehicle to determine if anyone was still alive? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, he would have reported it to me if that was his observation, but I would have in any case gone to the vehicle to see because I also had to report to my seniors. But I think he did inform me that there was a person who was still alive. MR BOTHA And you say the method by which you determined that the person was still living was by feeling the eye. For him it seemed as if the finger was pressed into the eye, but according to his own version it also could have been an observation fault. You concede that a person would not be able to see if it was just touched or pressed? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR DE KOCK Well yes, Chairperson, the eye is a sensitive organ, it does not help if one sticks your thumb into the eye. And you will only observe any signs of life if you use your small finger and touch lightly to the eye. MR BOTHA Mr de Kock, you are not - it seems to me you are not quite clear as to who the askaris were who were in the first vehicle. According to Mr Snyders it was Capt Moss, but he concedes that he might be mistaken but that Moss was indeed involved in the operation. MR DE KOCK He was involved in the operation, Chairperson, but on the periphery. I used him, if I may put it as follows, to do some observation along the road close to the police station which was close to Manzini. I think it was close to the Parliament. That was my closest problem and I used him in that regard, I could not use a white person because he would attract attention. MR BOTHA Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman, Visser on record. A few questions, with your leave. Mr de Kock, I appear for Hendrik du Plessis, he was one of the members of Vlakplaas at that stage and he was present at the ambush that evening. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And with regard to the background and the motivation for this action I would like to put it to you it would seem to me as if the information from the top to the bottom was basically conveyed in a telescope form, everything was not told to everybody every time. Is that as a general statement, correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, and I will qualify it. There are certain aspects which I would not tell them about, I would not tell them that Capt Willie Coetzee has a source. The reason for that is if some of them are caught they could not give out that information, so I concentrated it on the objective and the motivation. MR VISSER And he will tell the Committee, with regard to his recollection, he cannot recall today whether it was pointedly told to him why the persons had to be killed, but the inference that he drew was that they were terrorists who wanted to infiltrate the RSA. Maybe we should just pause there. Can you comment on that? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the people went out for training, the received the training and when they return it is to sow terror. I cannot recall all the words that were used, but that would be the effect of the message. MR VISSER What he does say is that he can recall that you told him that the action was based on information which came from Mr Willem Coetzee. MR DE KOCK That would be correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And he also says furthermore that the information came from a source. That is as much as he knew. I just mention it to you for the sake of completion, that that is what he will testify and if you want to comment on it you are free to do so. MR DE KOCK He was a senior person at that stage, Chairperson, I think he was a Captain. If I was involved in an accident, then the following senior person will take over, so in that sense I would give him a little bit more detail than I would give Hanton, who was a Sergeant at that stage. MR VISSER And then a final aspect. I don't know whether it was mentioned, but can you recall that you realised that one of the people, actually du Plessis' weapon did not want to fire? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR VISSER You cannot recall it, very well. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden, Mr Chairman. Mr de Kock, this Capt Moss, I understand he is deceased now, is that correct? MR DE KOCK That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN HEERDEN And I see in Mr Snyders' application he elaborates on the role of Capt Moss. Could you more specifically tell us what he was doing at the scene? MR DE KOCK As I've said, I used him to monitor the area between Manzini and Mbabane, but with a specific instruction to monitor the police station there close to Matsapa because if the forestry workers noticed something, then he would be able to warn us beforehand, so that we could move out or move deeper into the plantation. That is my recollection thereof. CHAIRPERSON So he wasn't at the scene? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, he was not at the scene. May I just mention that Capt Moss and Chris Magopa, if you see them from behind they would look like twins, they have the same build and the same bone structure. Not that Mr Snyders is wrong, but the possibility for confusion is there, because I am also the one who moved to them just immediately after the shooting and told them to move out and they made it in time. MR VAN HEERDEN I see Mr Snyders mentioned that "Capt Moss gave a sign and then we started shooting". MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, the moment when the vehicle started turning, the vehicle with the activists did not even start turning yet. I gave the sign that we should jump up and we moved in in a V-formation to the activists' vehicle, so that the doors would be covered in all aspects, but not shoot at each other. MR VAN HEERDEN The other applicant, Leon Flores, did you ask him to find a place for the ambush? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, no, the place was pointed to me by Capt van Dyk beforehand, which I wanted to set up as a rendezvous point for my people at one point, for operations, but he had to reconfirm it to me because Capt van Dyk brought me in from the border post side and this time I had to find it from Manzini's side and I needed him for that, and I had to get everything right for confirmation. MR VAN HEERDEN So he assisted you in that sense? MR DE KOCK I don't have a clear recollection, but if he says so I shall accept it as such. Because I had to take the people one by one there so that they would not attract attention by going there as a group. MR VAN HEERDEN Mr du Plessis mentions something that Mr Coetzee was no longer concerned about the source and that he could also be eliminated, what is your comment? MR DE KOCK No, it was only the activists in the vehicle, Chairperson. If there was a source and he said eliminate the source along with them, then it would not have been a problem for me, but there was no source that was shot. MR VISSER Could my learned friend give us the reference to where du Plessis says that, Chairperson, he must have the reference in front of him. MR VAN HEERDEN Page 170. CHAIRPERSON 170. MR VAN HEERDEN Excuse me, Mr Chairman, it's page 170, the fifth paragraph from the top. You have no answered that such a instruction would not have made any difference to your action. MR DE KOCK If the instruction was that the source had to be shot along with these activists, then one would have done so. It was not necessary for him to say it was a source, he could have just said there was another activist. So we had a target and I hit the target. There was no preference with regard to race. MR VAN HEERDEN Thank you. Applicant Johan Hendrik Tait says that activists were lured to the place of ambush by Capt Moss. MR DE KOCK No, it was Geoff because Geoff Bosigo was the driver. MR VAN HEERDEN And when the vehicle arrived at the scene, Capt Moss jumped out and ran away. Do you have a recollection of that? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, there was such an incident but at Piet Retief, that we had already completed in Durban, where Moss jumped out as the sign and if he walks they were unarmed, if he ran they were armed, but in this case that was not the case. MR VAN HEERDEN And from the statement of Mr Tait it would seem that there was only one vehicle involved in this ambush. MR DE KOCK Is one vehicle that was attacked? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes, one vehicle that was attacked and only one person who lured the vehicle into the ambush. MR DE KOCK Well it was one vehicle who led them with two of the people and then there was the one vehicle with the activists, there was no third vehicle involved. MR VAN HEERDEN If we look at page 85 of Mr Tait's statement, it would seem as if there was only one vehicle, which was driven Capt Moss it would seem to me and at the scene of the ambush he ran away. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I think there might be some confusion because logic would tell me that Mr Moss was alone in the vehicle, he jumps out, he runs away and he leaves the vehicle there, what should I do with the vehicle? The activists are shot and here I sit with the vehicle without a driver. I think he may be confusing it with another incident. MR VAN HEERDEN And I see Mr Tait also says that there were four occupants in the vehicle who were killed. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. We expected five, but when I had a look at the vehicle, because I had to report back, I saw there were three. Maybe it sticks in his memory that there were four, but ...(intervention) MR VAN HEERDEN What did you do with the vehicle after the incident? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I understand that some people say that we pushed it down the embankment. "Dit is heeltemal moontlik vir addisionele verberging, nie dat die voertuig kon meer as 10 of 15 meter gaan nie. Dis net om ons extra tyd te gee, dit is al". MR VAN HEERDEN Thank you, I have no further questions. Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI Mr de Kock, how long does it take from Pretoria to Swaziland, or maybe you can give me the distance, the estimated distance. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, up to Oshoek, if one drives fast, and then I speak of a speed of approximately 140 kilometres, you can do it in three hours, depending on traffic and from Oshoek for example to Manzini, it could take longer because ...(end of side A of tape) ... the time. I cannot give you a specific time. MR SIBANYONI In kilometres, can you give an estimation? MR DE KOCK Of how far it is? MR SIBANYONI Yes, from Pretoria to let's say Manzini. A very rough estimation. MR DE KOCK I shall give it to you now. I would say approximately 350 to 400 kilometres, you might add a few kilometres somewhere here and there. MR SIBANYONI So at what time did you personally leave Pretoria and when did you arrive there? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, we were on the farm early that morning and I would say that we arrived at Vlakplaas at approximately 8 o'clock and we started loading the firearms into the kombi. We did not have a problem with a time factor, we could drive slowly because the shooting incident would take place approximately between eight and nine that evening, so we had enough time. MR SIBANYONI Do you know whether the activists did have passports to get into Swaziland, or maybe they entered Swaziland at a place other than a post? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, no, I don't know, they may have had passports or they may have had temporary travelling documents which are valid for three or four days. I did not deal with those things. I don't know whether they passed the border illegally, I don't know. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, what time was the shooting supposed to take place? MR DE KOCK Between eight and nine in the evening, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you say between six and seven earlier in your evidence-in-chief? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I think I said between seven and eight and it took place between nine and ten that evening. CHAIRPERSON And you say you arrived at Vlakplaas at eight? MR DE KOCK That was in the morning, Chairperson. That is the recollection that I have of it, it was in the morning. CHAIRPERSON Because I think we were told that some of the people went to see you off that morning. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, there were persons there, among others, Capt Coetzee. As I have stated I cannot give you a fixed time, but it was early in the morning. CHAIRPERSON And that one of them then left Pretoria at 7 o'clock and then returned there and collected his car. MR DE KOCK It is possible, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You don't know what these people did when they arrived in Swaziland. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, we didn't follow them from the border post and then watch what they were doing. CHAIRPERSON You only know from the time they met these people outside the post office? MR DE KOCK That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry, re-examination? MR HATTINGH No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR DE KOCK Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED