amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-29 PRETORIA 3 JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53714&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_990929pt.htm MR BOOYENS Booyens on record, Mr Chairperson, I call Mr Tait. His application can be found on page 82. MR SIBANYONI Your full names, Mr Tait. JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Thank you, you may be seated. Sworn in. EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS It is an Afrikaans Tait, Mr Chairperson, but he understands what you have said. Mr Tait, you have your amnesty application before you, is that correct? And you provide the background, your personal background on pages 81, 82 and 83, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Now on page 84 you give your recollection of this incident in Swaziland, is that correct? MR TAIT Correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS At the stage when you went to see my attorney of instruction, Mr van der Merwe, did you have any point of reference with regard to what any of the other applicants stated about this incident in Swaziland, or anything of that nature, or did you have to rely purely on your own recollection? MR TAIT I had to rely purely upon my own recollection, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Very well. Now where you give a description of the incident, on page 84, there are just a few aspects that I would like to deal with. In the first place you were not certain of the date, you said that it was during 1988, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes. MR BOOYENS And we have heard that it was February 1989. MR TAIT That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You have also mentioned four activists, who according to your knowledge were killed, who were in transit to receive military training abroad and you have stated that there were four. This is on page 84. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And you have heard Mr de Kock state that only three persons were killed. Was it your recollection at the stage when you made your statement that you thought that there were four persons inside the vehicle? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You heard Mr de Kock say that you did not make use of any lights, so it was very dark. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Therefore, this figure of four that you may have heard somewhere or surmised or thought, is this the figure that emerged in }our mind when you made your affidavit? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And your description of the incident is that Capt Moss actually drove the vehicle into the ambush and jumped out and ran away. That is the description that you gave to Mr van der Merwe at that stage. MR TAIT Correct. MR BOOYENS Now you have heard Mr de Kock say that he thinks that you may be confused with another incident which took place near Piet Retief during which this scene actually took place. Is it possible that you may confused? MR TAIT Yes, it is highly possible that I may be confused. MR BOOYENS Now let us deal with the preceding events, before you departed from the Republic. Did Mr de Kock tell you what you were going to do? MR TAIT That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And you heard his explanation that it was basically conveyed to you that these were persons who were involved in terrorist activities in the RSA, who were going to continue their activities in Swaziland. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS At that stage did you have any reason to doubt Mr de Kock's information? MR TAIT No. MR BOOYENS Did you accept it as correct? MR TAIT Yes. MR BOOYENS And did you accept that this was the sort of work which was in either event was carried out by Vlakplaas? MR TAIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Your primary function was to combat terrorism. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS So Mr Tait, with regard to you, to shoot these terrorists dead and to plan such a shooting was part of the war that you were involved in? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS I see that you have also mentioned on page 84 that you recall that Willie Nortje was present and you have already heard that his legal representative has stated that he was not present during the operation. Is it possible that you may have confused his presence in this operation with his presence in another? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Mr Tait, you were discharged from the Police Force, due to post-traumatic stress disorder. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And part of having post-traumatic stress disorder is memory problems. MR TAIT Yes. MR BOOYENS You have heard Mr de Kock's description of what took place after you crossed the border into Swaziland. MR TAIT Correct. MR BOOYENS Does this correlate more-or-less with your personal recollection of what took place on the Swaziland side of the border? MR TAIT Correct. MR BOOYENS You were a member of the group of persons who were physically involved in the shooting on the Swaziland side of the border. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And I don't believe that it is necessary to dwell extensively on this because Mr de Kock has already stated it. According to you, your recollection of what took place in Swaziland is more-or-less the same as that of Mr de Kock. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You also crossed the South African border with a false passport? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You were aware that there would be weapons which would be smuggled over illegally from the country into Swaziland and then illegally returned to the country from Swaziland. These would be your weapons that you were going to use. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And you received an instruction, but you were also part of the planning to eliminate these persons in Swaziland. MR TAIT Correct. MR BOOYENS And you request amnesty for conspiracy to murder, for transgressions of the Weapons and Ammunitions Act, for the illegal possession and illegal import and export of weapons, as well as the crossing of a South African border with counterfeit documents, as well as for any delictual accountability that you may be held responsible for emanating from this case? MR TAIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Can I interrupt at this stage and ask you gentlemen if you could combine with one another to give us detailed list of the various offences for which you're asking for amnesty and the Sections of the Act and what have you. MR BOOYENS Certainly, Chairperson, I will ask my colleagues who have got access to a library, whether they could oblige us in this regard, people like Mr Hattingh or Mr Visser or somebody like that. CHAIRPERSON It doesn't have to be done immediately. MR BOOYENS Yes, on. Thank you, Chairperson. Possibly just one further aspect, Mr Tait. At the shooting, did you approach the vehicle after the shooting and observe the persons inside the vehicle physically? MR TAIT No. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Possibly just one further aspect, Mr Chairperson. Do you also confirm, subject to the amendments that you have indicated, do you confirm the rest of your amnesty application? MR TAIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR HATTINGH Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR CORNELIUS Cornelius on record, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR NEL Mr Chairman, Nel, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Rossouw on record, Mr Chairman. Mr Tait, I do not wish to ask you a question, I just want to put a statement to you. Thank you for your concession with regard to Mr Nortje. I just want to put it for the sake of completion that Mr Nortje denies any involvement in this operation. Thank you, Mr Chairman. NOTHING FURTHER BY MR ROSSOUW MR BOTHA Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA MR VISSER Visser, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI I've got no questions, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI I've got no questions. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chairperson. May Mr Tait be excused. CHAIRPERSON On the usual conditions. WITNESS EXCUSED