amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-29 PRETORIA 3 ADRIAN DAVID BAKER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53715&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_990929pt.htm MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I call Mr Baker. You will find Mr Baker's evidence on page 281, no, 288, Mr Chairperson. The witness will testify in English this time, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI Your full names please. ADRIAN DAVID BAKER (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Sworn in. EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Sorry, Mr Chairman, Mr Baker has a hearing problem, so that's why he's using it ... Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to you. Mr Baker, your application, your main application appears from page 288 to 303, as far as the background is concerned, is that right? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And like you've done in the past, do you confirm your general background as far as this is concerned? MR BAKER I do, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS As far as this incident is concerned, we start at page 304, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Now apparently a draft, pages 304 and 305 were was the uncorrected draft that was put in here, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And the corrections that are indicated here, for example the 4 being scratched our and your reference to a few words being scratched out and things like that, that was actually done after you corrected this document, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Now Mr Baker, you heard the evidence of Col de Kock as to the instructions that he gave you people about these activists or people that received military training, that you were to ambush in Swaziland, is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS On the information Mr de Kock gave you, that you had before you took part in this operation, were you satisfied that these people were preparing for acts of terror inside the Republic of South Africa? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And were you in your own mind satisfied that the operation was necessary and that it was part of the tasks of the Vlakplaas' Section C10 to fight terrorism and that this was part of that operation? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS You also crossed the border with a false travel document, with a false passport, is that correct? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And your task insofar as what happened in Swaziland, just for the sake of completeness, was you and Mr Botha were actually in, to your recollection was it Manzini or Mbabane, where these activists were supposed to meet the askaris? MR BAKER My recollection of it was Mbabane, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS But in any case it was a town in Swaziland? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And was your task to inform Mr de Kock by radio when the contact was established and the people were en route? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Without going into too much detail, is it correct that at one stage you thought the people were late and contacted Mr de Kock, as he indicated, and told him that the people were late and then subsequently contacted him and told him that they were on their way? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS You yourself were never present at scene of the shooting, is that correct? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And so your total involvement was to inform the people in the ambush that they were on their way and after that you also went back and crossed the South African border? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Are you also in a similar position as the other members of Vlakplaas, that you had no independent way of establishing the correctness of the information given to you, you were in the intelligence gathering arm, you were in the executive arm, is that correct? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman, we were the operational arm. MR BOOYENS Ja. And do you confirm the balance of your application? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Can I ask a question now which I perhaps should have asked you people earlier, but I think it - this was the sort of operation that Vlakplaas was frequently called on to perform, wasn't it? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Other sections of the Police Force who had made the enquiries, carried out the investigation, will then call in Vlakplaas to take the action? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR HATTINGH Hattingh, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman, Cornelius. Mr Baker, you can recall that Mr Snor Vermeulen was not present in this operation. MR BAKER Mr Chairman, on recollection no, he was not present. MR CORNELIUS Yes. Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR NEL Mr Chairman, Nel, I have no questions for Mr Baker. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Rossouw, Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Baker, on page 306 of your affidavit you also mention that W/O Nortje was present, is it possible that you might be mistaken as to his presence at this operation? MR BAKER That is possible, Mr Chairman, I do not recall exactly who was there. MR ROSSOUW I just put it to you that I'm in possession of an affidavit by Mr Nortje, in which he denies any involvement in this operation. Would you concede that that would be correct? MR BAKER I concede that, Mr Chairman. MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CHAIRPERSON Again can I interrupt at this stage. My recollection is that Mr Nortje was concerned in various other operations, it would very easy to get confused as to precisely which one you remember him at. Is that correct? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BOTHA Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Visser, Mr Chairman, one aspect with your leave. Mr Baker, at page 304 of the bundle you set out in your application saying that you were informed by your commander, Col de Kock, that he had received the instructions from the executive command structure and then you scratched out "Head Security Branch" and you left (General van der Merwe and Brigadier Schoon). Now I'm going to ask you to think back how clear your memory is because Gen van der Merwe states that, says that he wasn't involved in this at all, in this incident at all. MR BAKER Mr Chairman, if I may reply to that. The executive command structure was made up of these persons. I didn't mean that they'd specifically in person given instructions as we were never personally involved when instructions were given. I was just setting out the command structure of Section C at that stage. MR VISSER Oh yes. That puts a completely different perspective on it. What you were given to understand is, head office approved it? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER You were not given a name? MR BAKER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI Just one or two questions. I would like to it further from where the Chairperson left it, Mr Baker. Vlakplaas was called upon to intervene if the police, other police have done investigations and the like, would I be correct to say Vlakplaas' duty was only to do a covert operation, not to help in investigations? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI Would it be correct to say, or as it is usually said, that Vlakplaas was a hit-squad, it was a hit-squad in other words? MR BAKER It was an operational arm, that's correct, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI You were not involved in the Chesterville incident? MR BAKER No, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI In that incident we were told that there was a problem, police were killed, Vlakplaas was called upon, not usually to come and hit, but to assist to solve the problem of the police who were killed. What is your comment about that? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, we were often used to infiltrate where normal policemen couldn't, due to the fact that our members, as I think Col de Kock put it earlier, spoke the camp language, could speak the language of the activists that had been trained externally. The normal policemen didn't exactly know the, I should say the language used in the camps and by the activists themselves. So they were often used as well to infiltrate where the normal police could not infiltrate. MR SIBANYONI So there were instances where you would infiltrate, gather information and pass it to the normal police? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That was usually done, wasn't it, by askaris? MR BAKER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON It wasn't members of the South African Police Force at Vlakplaas, it was the askaris who were stationed there who did the infiltration and the gathering of information? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And it was in fact fairly important that they should be kept away from the ordinary police, so their identities would not become known? MR BAKER That is correct, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI I don't have a question, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone). Sorry, I have some perhaps unfair questions, considering it took place 10 years ago, but I wonder if you can help. Can you remember the time when you saw these people making contact outside the post office in Mbabane? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, if I can recall it was already evening, it wasn't still daytime, it was dark. CHAIRPERSON And you'd been waiting there for quite a long time by then, had you? MR BAKER Mr Chairman, yes, we actually wondered if the operation was going to come off. CHAIRPERSON Were you here when Mr de Kock gave evidence? MR BAKER Yes, Mr Chairman, this morning. CHAIRPERSON Do you agree with his estimates of time and distance from Pretoria to Swaziland? MR BAKER Mr Chairman yes, I'd say that the estimate was more-or-less correct, the time it would have taken to have driven there and so on. CHAIRPERSON So if these people had left Pretoria early in the morning they would have been in Swaziland, in Mbabane for some time before you saw them making contact? MR BAKER That is possible, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So they could have contacted other people? MR BAKER That is quite possible, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Re-examination? MR BOOYENS No thank you, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS MR BOOYENS May he be excused on the normal conditions? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BOOYENS Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Although we've been doing very well this morning, I don't think we'll finish your next applicant in three minutes. We'll take the adjournment at this stage. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR VISSER Mr Chairman, Visser on record. I have two further witnesses, the one is a witness who is in prison and who has only arrived here this morning. I haven't consulted with him yet. I rather believe that we might not finish this afternoon with all the evidence ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That doesn't matter, I merely want to ... MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR VISSER ... I must call the witness, Mr Chairman, and I'll fall in. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR VISSER I don't believe we will, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, while I'm busy talking, may I beg leave to refer back to a question which Commissioner Sandi asked of Mr Schoon yesterday, regarding other matters in which he gave instructions. Now Mr Chairman, we've carefully gone through the amnesty applications and there are four. The first one is incident three, that was one which you have knowledge of, that was the attempted murder on Marius Schoon in Botswana. That's his incident number 3. I don't know whether you have his full amnesty application before you, Chairperson. Well perhaps - we've got one here which you can use in the meantime if you wished. But incident 3 in his application, relates to the attempted murder on Marius Schoon. Then incident 12, Chairperson, as amended, is the present incident which you are hearing now. And then there's an incident 17, which related to two persons eliminated in Swaziland - I'm sorry, Botswana, Take Five and Sadie P-u-l-e. Now those are the only three incidents, Mr Chairman, in which Schoon gave instructions for people to be killed. Marius Schoon wasn't killed, but in the other two incidents, in 12 and 17, people were killed. Then his number 14, case number 14, Mr Chairman, relates to an abduction of one, M-s-i-b-i from Swaziland. And those are the only four in which he himself gave an instruction without an instruction coming from higher up. Msibi wasn't killed or anything, Mr Chairman, he was just abducted and later returned. CHAIRPERSON I think my colleague merely wanted to ascertain, as did I, that there - one doesn't always have to look to the very top. MR VISSER No, indeed not Chairperson, in fact there are quite a number of incidents where lower ranking officers took the decision on their own. Could Brig Schoon perhaps now be excused, Chairperson, on the condition that he must keep himself available? Thank you, Mr Chairman. BRIGADIER SCHOON EXCUSED