amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-29 PRETORIA 3 LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53718&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_990929pt.htm MR SIBANYONI English or Afrikaans? MR FLORES English. MR SIBANYONI Your full names for the record. LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Sworn in, Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Commissioner Sibanyoni. Mr Flores, you've prepared an application in terms of Section 18 of Act 34 of 1995, presented it to the TRC Committee in Cape Town and provided your full co-operation with the TRC Committee's Investigating Team, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS At all times during this incident you were ...(indistinct) as envisaged in Section 20(2)(b) and Section 20(2)(f) of Act 34 of 1995, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS You served in the Section called C1, of Vlakplaas, which workings of Vlakplaas are fully amplified in the previous documents before this Committee. MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS You served under the command of Eugene de Kock, your commanding officer, and at all times carried out your instructions, strictly no a need-to-know basis, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS In your amnesty application from folio 225 to folio 228, you confirm the contents of your amnesty application. MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS On folio 225 you, under the heading "Operation Cobra - Swaziland", you say that Capt Deon Nieuwoudt of the Security Branch in P.E. requested C1 for assistance of ANC activists who were leaving Port Elizabeth for Swaziland, where they would receive a course in arms training. Is this averment of yours correct? MR FLORES No, Mr Chairperson, that is a mistake. I don't know it came that I put that section there, but that should totally be deleted from that application. MR CORNELIUS What was your rank at that time, when this operation took place? MR FLORES I was a Sergeant, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS I see. Now I trust that you weren't fully informed from the top command structure of what the exact actions were that were to take place in Swaziland and exactly what the political motivation from the senior Security Branch officers were? MR FLORES That would be correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You worked strictly on a need-to-know basis, did you realise you were acting against ANC terrorists at that time? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS So this opening paragraph on page 225 seems like an averment, or your conclusion that you drew from the facts within your knowledge. MR FLORES That is correct. MR CORNELIUS I see. And it has transpired that Capt Deon Nieuwoudt was not involved in this matter at all. MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Fine. But you knew you were acting against ANC activists? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS You received instructions to go to Swaziland and you in fact also did go to Swaziland, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You heard the testimony and the cross-examination by Eugene de Kock, did you in fact receive instructions and in fact scout out the area where the ambush was to take place? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson, I did accompany Col de Kock. MR CORNELIUS And I understand that Swaziland was your operational area. MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS So you knew it well. MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Was Adj Snor Vermeulen involved in this matter at all? MR FLORES Well I can recall not at all, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Yes. You were one of the members who in fact laid in the ambush waiting with a firearm, is this correct? MR FLORES That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You were equipped also with a AK47 with a silencer? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS I see. You participated and you in fact participated in the killing and murder of the three victims, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Fine. You've heard the other evidence of the kombi with fitted panels and you agree with the evidence already led before this Committee. MR FLORES That is correct. MR CORNELIUS I see. Did you receive any other reward except your salary, as envisaged in Section 20(3)? MR FLORES Nothing whatsoever, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you have any ill will or spite against the victims? MR FLORES Not at all, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You felt that you were carrying out your duty in the interests of the serving government at that time, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You apply for amnesty before this Committee, for the murder and your participation of the murder of the three victims, as well as any delict which might flow from these actions, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR HATTINGH Hattingh, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR BOOYENS No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR NEL Nel, Mr Chairperson, no questions. NO QUESTIONS MR NEL MR ROSSOUW No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR BOTHA Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA MR VISSER Visser, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm that two vehicles came to the scene of the ambush? MR FLORES Yes, I do, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And I think you've said you arrived at the scene about two hours before, you dropped off about two hours before. MR FLORES I think that's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And that you waited for an hour and a half, you were dropped off and then you had to go to the scene of the ambush and you waited there for an hour and a half. MR FLORES If not longer, that's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON There was a delay? MR FLORES That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know if any arms or explosives were found in the vehicle? MR FLORES What I can recall, nothing at all, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You did search it? MR FLORES Personally myself, no. CHAIRPERSON But somebody in your group did. MR FLORES Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Re-examination? MR CORNELIUS No re-examination, thank you Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Right, excused on the usual ... WITNESS EXCUSED MR CORNELIUS Mr Chair, I represent a further application, which does not form part of the documents before you at the moment, D J Britz. We have subsequently found his application, I've tabled it to the TRC Evidence Leader, Mr Steenkamp, whose got full knowledge of this and I'm at present preparing an affidavit with the documentation to be presented to the Committee. Unfortunately he won't testify due to his medical condition. I've received medical reports as well and I will table that as soon as it's out of the oven. Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Have you discussed this with your colleagues? MR CORNELIUS I've discussed it with my colleagues. CHAIRPERSON None of them wish to question him? MR CORNELIUS I don't think there is any objection, most of his evidence is common cause. He was a driver on the lookout vehicle. But he is present, I've got him present if there's any problem with that. CHAIRPERSON You all agree. MR HATTINGH I do not have any questions for him, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR BOOYENS I don't have any questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR NEL Nel, I won't have any questions for Mr Britz either. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, I haven't had insight into his application, but insofar as there is a possibility, in the light of the other applicants, that he might implicate Mr Nortje, the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We will take it that we get the same answer. MR ROSSOUW ... then I don't have any questions for him. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR BOTHA I've got no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I don't know, it doesn't seem as if I might have questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR CORNELIUS The documents will be tabled to my colleagues anyway, thank you Mr Chair.