amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-29 PRETORIA 3 DOUW GERBRAND WILLEMSE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53720&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_990929pt.htm MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman, I then call the next applicant, Mr Willemse. MR SIBANYONI Are you English or Afrikaans speaking? MR WILLEMSE Afrikaans. MR SIBANYONI Your full names please. DOUW GERBRAND WILLEMSE (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Sworn in. EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. You will find the application of Mr Willemse on page 10 in the bundle and further. Mr Willemse, do you have a copy of your amnesty application before you? MR WILLEMSE Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW And a summary of the background and the broad political objective with regard to the events in which you were involved, can be found from 10 to 16. Do you confirm the content thereof? MR WILLEMSE Yes, it is correct. MR ROSSOUW On page 16, if I may just refer you to the top of page 16. You state there that you were a Sergeant and a subordinate at Vlakplaas during 1989, with this operation, that was the rank that you occupied? MR WILLEMSE Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW And you confirm that you fell under the operational command of Col E A de Kock and that operations, both internal and external, in which you participated, you participated in upon your own initiative but according to a legal order which you received. MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Mr Willemse, you gave evidence before this Committee during the first session of this Committee, at the beginning of September, and upon that occasion you submitted a letter from a psychiatrist which confirms that you are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, is that correct? MR WILLEMSE Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW And you request that the Committee once again study your evidence against the background of that letter? MR WILLEMSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Then in broad terms you have summarised the incidents in which you have been involved, this appears on page 17 and goes up to page 30, do you confirm the content thereof? MR WILLEMSE Yes. MR ROSSOUW And with regard to this specific incident, you have summarised the facts from page 32 onwards. May I refer you to that? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Very well. You state on page 33, with the description of the nature and particulars regarding this incident, that in formation came to the disposal of Vlakplaas that at certain group of trained ANC terrorists would use a certain road in Swaziland to enter the RSA. Do you recall how you obtained this information? MR WILLEMSE I was informed at a later stage that it came from Messrs Coetzee and the others. MR ROSSOUW Yes, but at that stage you were not privy to the information-gathering process? MR WILLEMSE No. MR ROSSOUW You simply were informed about it subsequently? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And the order which was given to you, as Mr Visser has put it, was that you would have been informed by Col de Kock that these were indeed terrorists who were seeking to enter the country? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And was there any planning session which was held at Vlakplaas regarding the fate of these persons? MR WILLEMSE The plan was to lure these persons into an ambush and to eliminate them. MR ROSSOUW Very well. You describe in paragraph 2 that Geoff Bosigo would meet them under a false flag. Could you explain this to the Committee, what would this false flag be? MR WILLEMSE The other person or the persons that he was supposed to meet, would be under the impression that he, Bosigo, was an active member of the ANC and that they actually worked for the police, but this group was not aware of it. So that is what the false flag was. MR ROSSOUW You entered Swaziland with this group, did you also make use of a false passport? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And were you there at the point where the ambush was set up? MR WILLEMSE Yes. MR ROSSOUW You heard the evidence regarding what took place there, the evidence given by Mr de Kock, do you concur with that evidence, do you confirm it? MR WILLEMSE Yes, I confirm it. MR ROSSOUW You were also issued with an AK47, which was fitted with a silencer, is that correct? MR WILLEMSE Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW Very well. Then at the bottom of page 33, you refer to the other persons who were involved there and you mention the name of Mr Snor Vermeulen. Are you certain about that or could you possibly be mistaken regarding his presence? MR WILLEMSE I may have been mistaken regarding his presence, Mr Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Very well. Mr Willemse, initially in your statement you mentioned that four persons were shot dead during this incident and during consultation with myself you stated that you were not certain whether there were three or four persons. What is your recollection today? MR WILLEMSE That there were indeed three persons. MR ROSSOUW Is that in terms of the evidence that you have heard here? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And after the shooting, at the scene, did you approach the vehicle, did you yourself look inside the vehicle to see the number of passengers? MR WILLEMSE No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW After the incident you returned with the team to the Republic, can you recall whether this took place on the same day or on the following day? MR WILLEMSE I cannot recall that part of the events, but according to the evidence which has been given here, it would appear that we returned the following morning. MR ROSSOUW Then on page 34 and 35, with regard to the political objective of these persons, do you confirm the content of your amnesty application in that regard? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Now Mr Willemse, you drew no personal advantage or financial benefit from your participation in this operation? MR WILLEMSE No. MR ROSSOUW You did also not act out of any feelings of malice towards these persons who were eliminated. MR WILLEMSE No. MR ROSSOUW You did not know them? MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW At that stage, did you have any reason to doubt the information which was conveyed to you or to doubt any order or instruction which was given to you by Mr de Kock? MR WILLEMSE No. MR ROSSOUW You were in no position to question any orders. MR WILLEMSE That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR HATTINGH Hattingh, Chairperson, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR BOOYENS Booyens, no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR CORNELIUS Cornelius, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR NEL Nel, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR BOTHA Botha, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA MR VISSER Visser, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI I've got no questions, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI No questions. CHAIRPERSON Nor have I. MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman, may the applicant then be excused under the same conditions? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Oh sorry, I have got one question I think. In your original application at page 22 - that is your application isn't it, you refer to those being, as I understand it, or is this another incident in Swaziland? It's the same incident, is it? MR WILLEMSE It's the same one. CHAIRPERSON Well there you say that the members concerned were yourself, de Kock, Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen and Willie Nortje. The others you can't remember. MR WILLEMSE Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. I must just add that at that stage I was undergoing treatment, medical treatment and I made an error. After I'd heard the evidence given by the others I realised that I may have made a mistake or that I did make a mistake with regard to Willie Nortje and Snor Vermeulen. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR WILLEMSE Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED