amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-29 PRETORIA 3 PETRUS CASPARUS SNYDERS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53721&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_990929pt.htm MR SIBANYONI Your full names please? PETRUS CASPARUS SNYDERS (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Thank you, you may be seated. Sworn in. MR BOTHA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. May I refer the Committee to page 315 of the bundle and further and may I request the Committee's permission to hand in the supplementary affidavit as was supplied to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Snyders, I refer you to the bundle, there is a copy of your amnesty application from page 315 and further, stretching up to page 324. Do you have knowledge of the content thereof? MR SNYDERS Yes, that is correct. MR BOTHA And do you confirm the content thereof as true and correct according to your knowledge, specifically in consideration of your supplementary affidavit? MR SNYDERS That is correct. MR BOTHA I also refer you to your supplementary affidavit of which you also have a copy before you, do you also confirm this document as true and correct? MR SNYDERS Yes, I confirm it. MR BOTHA From your amnesty application it would appear that you are one of the persons who participated in the ambush with regard to the incident which took place in Swaziland. MR SNYDERS That is correct. MR BOTHA Could you sketch very briefly for us what your share in this matter was. MR SNYDERS I cannot recall the precise time, but that evening I was dropped off with my other colleagues at the place where the ambush would take place. After some course of time the vehicle which was to bring the ANC cadres in arrived, followed by the vehicle containing the ANC members. We were in our positions, from where we were to open fire and we did so. Three persons were killed. And after we had determined that these persons had been killed, we took their vehicle and pushed it over a cliff. We were then picked up by W/O Bellingan and taken back to our accommodation in Swaziland. MR BOTHA In your initial application it would appear that there are a number of aspects which appear to be incomplete or at least contradictory with the versions of other applicants. Could you provide a brief explanation of that for the record. MR SNYDERS As a result of the lengthy course of time there may be certain facts that I may have forgotten because of my involvement in various incidents. I may have placed certain persons at the scene who were not actually involved in that matter. In the meantime I've also been treated for post-traumatic stress disorder, which has contributed to the weakening of my memory. MR BOTHA You request that amnesty be granted to you for your conspiracy to murder, possession of arms and ammunition, possession and/or use of false documents or any other offence which may emanate from this matter, is that correct? MR SNYDERS Yes, that is correct. MR BOTHA Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA MR HATTINGH Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR BOOYENS Booyens, Mr Chairman, no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR CORNELIUS Cornelius, Mr Chairman, no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR ROSSOUW Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR NEL Nel, Mr Chairperson, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR VISSER Visser, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, I've got one question. Mr Snyders, I have spotted this for the first time, the tape recording that you have referred to at the bottom of page 321 of your application, could you elaborate on that? MR SNYDERS Yes, Chairperson. With regard to some of the incidents, tape recordings were made by Mr de Kock, which we played back to Mr Oosthuizen once we arrived back in Pretoria, to indicate that the operation had been successfully completed. MR VAN HEERDEN Do you know how these tape recordings were made or by whom they were made? MR SNYDERS They were usually recorded by Mr de Kock himself, with a mini-cassette recorder that he had with him. MR VAN HEERDEN What did he record? MR SNYDERS From before the commencement of the attack to the completion of the attack everything would be recorded on tape. MR VAN HEERDEN What was the normal duration of such a recording? MR SNYDERS This specific incident in which I was involved, would have not have taken longer than a number of seconds, 15 to 20 seconds. MR VAN HEERDEN You state the Col Oosthuizen, or that you were under the impression that Col Oosthuizen wasn't very impressed with this tape recording. Why do you say that? MR SNYDERS That is simply my own observation. I believe that he may have thought that it could have been used as evidence later and he didn't wish for any evidence to be left behind, which would point at the incident. MR VAN HEERDEN Do you know why Col de Kock specifically asked you to accompany? MR SNYDERS He and I had been together at Police Headquarters in Pretoria before we went to Vlakplaas, and he must have felt comfortable in asking me to go with him to Col Oosthuizen's office. MR VAN HEERDEN Was it only you and Col de Kock who went to Police Headquarters after the incident? MR SNYDERS There may have been other members as well, that is where we submitted reports and claims, but I do recall that he asked me to go with him. MR VAN HEERDEN You say that tape recordings were made of a number of different incidents, was the physical tape ever identified after any operation and was it ever filed? MR SNYDERS I was not involved in any form of filing of such items, it wasn't my department of work. MR VAN HEERDEN Do you know where these tapes were stored? MR SNYDERS No. MR VAN HEERDEN Thank you, I then have nothing further. Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI No questions, thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Snyders, in your original application you seem to remember some event in some detail. MR SNYDERS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure that you - this isn't another incident that you were talking of here? MR SNYDERS No, Chairperson, some of the events of the incident were very clear in my memory. CHAIRPERSON You talk about tickets, air tickets being provided, so that they could fly to Jan Smuts airport. MR SNYDERS I believe that I may have been confused with another incident during which flight tickets were used. CHAIRPERSON Were you involved in an incident where people flew into Jan Smuts and were then taken to Swaziland? MR SNYDERS I can no longer recall such an incident. CHAIRPERSON Because you go on and you say how they were driven to Swaziland by Capt Moss, in a Vlakplaas vehicle. Or it's rather that he sent them to Swaziland after he met them at Jan Smuts airport. MR SNYDERS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And led them to the place of the ambush. MR SNYDERS That is how I have recalled it, but I may be mistaken in the sense that Capt Moss was simply involved but not to the extent that he led them into the ambush. CHAIRPERSON And you also talk of pushing the vehicle over the edge. MR SNYDERS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON How far did it fall? MR SNYDERS Not very far, a section of the vehicle still emerged from the high ground. CHAIRPERSON And you also say that when you returned to the place you were staying at, everybody except yourself and de Kock, went to a disco. Is that correct? MR SNYDERS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did that happen? MR SNYDERS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So all the other persons involved had a party that night. MR SNYDERS Well I didn't see them return, but they went out to have fun. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA Only one question in re-examination if the Committee will allow me. Mr Snyders, it would appear from your application that you gave information of which you are not 100% certain of its accuracy, is there any specific reason why you gave the information as such? MR SNYDERS There is no reason, all the information is at it appeared in my recollection. I have given the information as I have recalled it, including the finer details. There is no reason why I should withhold anything or pretend that I don't know something. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA WITNESS EXCUSED