amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-09-29 PRETORIA 3 FINIAS MOSHUALIBA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53723&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_990929pt.htm MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may it please you. We're indebted to you for the few minutes extra which we were granted. The time was a little short, but we've tried to do our best during the time available to us, and we are going to call Mr Finias Moshualiba to give evidence, Mr Chairman. He prefers to speak in Sotho and to give his evidence in Sotho, so it will have to be... FINIAS MOSHUALIBA (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Sworn in, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr - I understand from what I gathered from the Sotho being spoken, that your surname is not Moshualiba, but Moshuadiba, is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Yes, Mr Visser, the spelling remains the same, only the L is pronounced as a D, Moshualiba. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Oh, oh I see. I'll live with that, Mr Chairman. You are an applicant in this incident and you ask for amnesty for any offence or delict committed by you in regard to an incident which took place near Mbabane in Swaziland, during approximately the 12th to the 13th of February 1989, in which incident one, Louis Mohale, alias Thabo, one, Derek Moshobane and one, Porta Shabangu were murdered, is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have filed a proper and complete amnesty application, which is to be found in the bundle at page 194 and following. You deal with the incident at page 196 and you deal with political objectives on page 197 and onwards. During the brief consultation which we had during the lunch hour, we went through paragraph 10 at page 197, and you thought that some of those paragraphs do not apply to you. Can you just tell the Chairman and the Committee which of the paragraphs apply to and which don't. MR MOSHUALIBA Those which affect me is paragraph number 1, number 2, 3, 4 and 6. MR VISSER Yes. And the others don't. MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct. MR VISSER Do you confirm the contents of your amnesty application, subject to what you've just told us, as being true and correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Moshualiba, you were a policeman in 1989, is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Is it also correct that you were stationed at Soweto since 1981, where you joined the Security Branch Intelligence Group? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And in 1989, were you then functioning under Group D, that is the Intelligence Group at Security Headquarters, Pretoria? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was your immediate commander, Col Willem Coetzee? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And his immediate commander, Brig Oosthuizen? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And the group commander was General Erasmus? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You became a policeman and after having done so, were you given a specific task to fulfil? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER I'm referring to the fact that you became and RS Agent. Can you remember your RS number? MR MOSHUALIBA It was RS238. MR VISSER Yes. And RS refers to policeman, not ordinary informers, is that correct? Republic of South Africa, I think it stands for or whatever, but it refers to a policeman who infiltrates and not an informer. MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And as such, what were your tasks, what were you supposed to do? MR MOSHUALIBA I was requested to associate myself with various student organisations at schools and at tertiary level, with the intention to gather intelligence. MR VISSER Were you in fact placed on a campus by the police, as a student? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct yes, I was placed in a particular campus as a student at the teacher's training college and from there I was transferred to the university thereafter. MR VISSER Which university was that? MR MOSHUALIBA That is Vista University. MR VISSER And is that situated at Vereeniging? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, the campus was in Vereeniging. MR VISSER What did you understand to be the reason why it was so important that the police wanted to infiltrate student movements? What were the students doing? MR MOSHUALIBA I thought the intention to do that was that the students took part in the struggle for liberation. MR VISSER According to your own knowledge, did they hold meetings and did they have marches? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, they used to hold various meetings and then they used to have practise marches. MR VISSER And did some of these marches - were some of these marches accompanied by violence? MR MOSHUALIBA Mainly yes. If there was a march it would happen that later many people would be hurt or injured. MR VISSER And these marches and meetings, did they have a strong political foundation? MR MOSHUALIBA In terms of my observation that was correct. MR VISSER What was your view at the time of how or what the ANC wanted to use the students to do? MR MOSHUALIBA My understand was that the ANC wanted students to be one of the pillars of the struggle during those years. MR VISSER Alright. If we can go over to the facts then. Is it correct that at some stage during 1988, you came to meet Mr Louis Mohale? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was he a member of a student organisation? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, he was one of the members of one of the student movements. MR VISSER Will you tell us which one? MR MOSHUALIBA At the time when I met him, he was a member of Sansco. MR VISSER Sansco. What was his position, was he an ordinary member, was he a leader figure, how did you judge his position in Sansco? MR MOSHUALIBA He was in the leadership position at the time when I met him. MR VISSER Yes. Would you have regarded him as an activist? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson, he was one of the people who were active. MR VISSER Yes. I was just going to ask you why you say so. You say he was active, active in what sense? MR MOSHUALIBA He was one of those who were arranging meetings and those who would go to various meetings. MR VISSER Did he arrange protest actions as well? MR MOSHUALIBA I don't remember as to whether he was party to that group which were arranging protest marches. MR VISSER Now when you met Mr Mohale, was he a student at the time and if so, with which institution? MR MOSHUALIBA At the time when I met him he was a student at Unisa. MR VISSER Were you able in fact, to gain the confidence of Mr Mohale? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you have informal discussions with Mr Mohale from time to time? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, that is correct, it happened many times. MR VISSER And did some of those discussions revolve around politics and the armed struggle in the country? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson, we used to talk about those issues. MR VISSER And what were the views of Mr Mohale, as he expressed them to you? What did he intend to do? MR MOSHUALIBA He used to tell me that there was an intention from their side that they should have a military training and then again, so that they would be able to have arms. Then again, to have a contact with the African National Congress outside the country. MR VISSER Yes. So there were three issues which were important to Mr Mohale. One is contact with the ANC abroad, secondly is to obtain military training and thirdly, to obtain weapons, is that how I understand you? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Just incidentally, did he ever talk to you about any other university that he might have attended? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, initially when I began to meet him, he told me that he was once a student at the University of the North and then he was dismissed because of their student activities. MR VISSER Yes, I heard you used the word "Turfloop". That wasn't translated, but that is the University of the North, it's known as Turfloop, is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did he also tell you what happened to him at Turfloop? MR MOSHUALIBA As I've already explained, he was involved in student political activities, then he was ultimately dismissed from the university. MR VISSER He was expelled? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct. MR VISSER At the time when you got to know Mr Mohale, you say he was then a student of UNISA, where was he then living, in 1989? MR MOSHUALIBA He told me that he was residing at Diepkloof. Even if I was not able to be there once, but he told that he was staying at that place. MR VISSER Yes. You never went to visit him at his home? MR MOSHUALIBA No, Sir, I did not visit him at home. MR VISSER Did you at some stage become aware whether or not other students within Sansco, shared the ideas which you told us about, that Mr Louis Mohale had contact abroad, weapons training and importation of weapons? Were there others that shared those views with him? MR MOSHUALIBA Those beliefs were only resting in his person and then again, there were some few people who were sharing the same ideas with him. MR VISSER In fact, did he and a few of the other students form a tight-knit group within Sansco? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, that was my understanding, that there were people who were closer to him. MR VISSER Yes. And how big was this group, as far as you know? How many members did this nucleus group consist of? MR MOSHUALIBA In terms of my observations and our discussions, it would approximately 10, or a little more than 10. MR VISSER And would you describe this group as militant and politicised? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, that is correct, because they were above board in terms of the political activities. MR VISSER And who was the leader of that group, as far as you could make out? MR MOSHUALIBA Even if I would not say it directly who was their leader, but my observation was that Louis was one of the persons who was free to talk about those issues. MR VISSER Did this group support any political organisation in the country at the time? MR MOSHUALIBA According to my understanding of Sansco, Sansco was supporting ANC. MR VISSER And what about the members of this group that you told us about, was it the same in their case? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, that is the same with that nucleus group, that they were supporting ANC. MR VISSER Now there must have been many other issues which might have been of interest to the Security Police at the time, but we confined ourselves to what you've told this Committee this morning, can I ask you this, did you make regular reports about what you learnt, from your infiltrated position, to someone? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, that was my work, I used to do that many times. MR VISSER And to whom did you report? MR MOSHUALIBA I was giving these reports directly to Mr Coetzee. MR VISSER Mr Willem Coetzee? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Sir. MR VISSER Now at some stage during about the beginning of 1989, something happened, is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Will you tell the Committee what you learnt at that time? MR MOSHUALIBA I learnt that Louis Mohale and some few people were prepared that it was the right time for them to continue with their objectives, to go to neighbouring countries to contact the ANC. MR VISSER Just incidentally, during about that time, can you tell the Committee how wide the influence was that Mr Louis Mohale had in Sansco. Was it confined to Diepkloof or did his influence and his ideas go wider than that? MR MOSHUALIBA According to my observation, he had contacts with various people in various provinces who were members of Sansco. MR VISSER In fact, contact with people in the Free State? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And in the Cape? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Alright. So when you heard that they were planning to put their objectives in action, did you then report to Willem Coetzee again? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, that is what I did, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what was the idea, how were you going to react to this situation, what were you going to do? MR MOSHUALIBA I reported to Mr Willem Coetzee, then he informed me to continue to understand their plan as to when and how. MR VISSER Was it mentioned by Willem Coetzee that a vehicle might be made available to them with which they could go to wherever they wanted to go? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, that was so. MR VISSER And initially, what was the vehicle that you spoke about? MR MOSHUALIBA Initially they were talking about a kombi, but later it was changed to be, for a small car. MR VISSER At that time, did you drive a motor car which you had received from the police? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, I had a car which it was underwritten under my name and which I was using. MR VISSER Was it registered in your name? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what kind of car was that? MR MOSHUALIBA It was a white Opel Kadett. MR VISSER So after having spoken about the kombi, you say later Coetzee told you that the decision was now that the car had to be made available to Louis Mohale, is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And which car was eventually made available to Louis Mohale? MR MOSHUALIBA He was given the white Opel Kadett which I talked about earlier. MR VISSER Yes. Now is it correct that Louis Mohale in fact was allowed by you to borrow that car prior to this occasion that we're talking about now? Is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct. It happened that one day I borrowed him this car before their departure to Swaziland. MR VISSER And why did you allow him to use your car, what was the purpose of doing that? MR MOSHUALIBA He wanted to meet people who were going with him to discuss about the arrangements to Swaziland. MR VISSER So you then told Louis Mohale that he could have your car, is that correct, to go to Swaziland? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, I did so. MR VISSER And at some stage were you told by Mohale, when they planned to leave? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was your impression, how many of this group, this nucleus group, would be going to Swaziland on that occasion? MR MOSHUALIBA Because they were going to use this small car I thought four or five people would accompany him, or go together with him. MR VISSER Yes. And were you then told by them that they intended to leave, or rather told by Mr Mohale, that he intended to leave with his group on a certain Saturday? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You can't remember the date exactly? MR MOSHUALIBA I don't remember the date, Chairperson, but I remember that it was on a Saturday. MR VISSER Are you prepared to accept that it might have been on the 12th of February 1989? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, I would not dispute that. MR VISSER This motorcar, just to tie that up, was there something strange, something peculiar about this motorcar or was it a straightforward car that you had bought? Where did this car come from? CHAIRPERSON He's told us hasn't he, that it was provided by the police. MR VISSER Well if you don't mind me doing so, Chairperson, I will then lead him. Was this a Regulation 80(6) motorcar? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER So again, I take it you made reports to Coetzee and on this particular Saturday, which was planned by Louis Mohale, did you then hand the car to him? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Where did this happen? MR MOSHUALIBA It happened around Bloemfontein in - Braamfontein, in Johannesburg. MR VISSER Braamfontein. Did you give him any instructions as to making contact with you when he arrived in Swaziland? MR MOSHUALIBA I did that, Chairperson, I gave him a telephone number where he would be able to contact me whilst he was in Swaziland. MR VISSER And was that a telephone number in a hotel room which you used as a safehouse in Johannesburg? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Is it true that before they left you were instructed by Coetzee to attempt to retain control over their movements and whom they were to meet in Swaziland, as far as possible? MR MOSHUALIBA That was so, because it happened that I gave him a telephone number so that he would be able to contact me as to whether they have arrived and what was happening in Swaziland. MR VISSER Yes. Was anything done to prevent Louis Mohale and his group from making contact with real MK people in Swaziland? MR MOSHUALIBA That was the intention of the police, to intercept their movement. MR VISSER Did you in fact inform Mohale that you could arrange for him to meet MK people in Swaziland? MR MOSHUALIBA That's what I've explained to him whilst he was still arranging that trip. MR VISSER At the time when you suggested to him that you could put him in touch with MK people, had he already firmly decided before that time that he was going to Swaziland, no matter what? MR MOSHUALIBA That is what he told me, that they are going to Swaziland, but they would have a problem as to who within the ANC they would meet. That is where I made the suggestion that I would be able to make a contact for them in Swaziland. MR VISSER Did you in any way coax Louis Mohale or anyone else to go to Swaziland to make contact with the ANC to attempt to obtain military training and to bring weapons into this country? MR MOSHUALIBA Not at all, Chairperson, I did not do such things. MR VISSER On the morning when they left, did you give Louis Mohale something which he was to use as a code or an introduction to somebody that he was going to meet in Swaziland? MR MOSHUALIBA I did that, Chairperson, I gave him a music cassette. CHAIRPERSON He gave him what? Could you repeat please. INTERPRETER A music cassette. MR VISSER A music cassette, Chairperson. You don't remember what it was, but we've heard from other witnesses here that it was the Tracy Chapman tape. In any event, what was he to do with this tape? MR MOSHUALIBA He was supposed to have it on his person, even if I did not know the words he would use there would be a person who would talk about(sic) him about Tracy Chapman's music. MR VISSER And after you had received instructions from Coetzee, did you in fact inform Louis Mohale where a meeting could be arranged between him and his group and members of MK, which you would arrange in Swaziland? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson, I informed him that he would meet some people at the post office in Manzini. MR VISSER Right. On the Saturday morning when they left, how many of them in fact left Braamfontein for Swaziland? MR MOSHUALIBA At the time I handed the car over to him, there were two people. MR VISSER So they were altogether three people? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, they were three people. MR VISSER Can you recall what time more-or-less, Louis Mohale and the other two persons left Braamfontein with the Opel Kadett? MR MOSHUALIBA It was between 7 to 8 o'clock in the morning. MR VISSER The other two people who went with Mr Mohale, what were their sex? MR MOSHUALIBA There was one male, he told me that he was from Bloemfontein and a female person, who came from Kangwane, if I remember well. MR VISSER Did you know anything about these people, I'm now talking about these other two people, or their activities before then? MR MOSHUALIBA I did not meet them before and I did not know them before, but I understood that they were members of Sansco. MR VISSER And were they also, as your understanding went, closely associated with Louis Mohale? MR MOSHUALIBA That was my understanding, Chairperson. MR VISSER After the Opel Kadett had left with the three people, what did you then do? MR MOSHUALIBA I left that place, then I met Mr Coetzee again, where I told him that they've departed to Swaziland. MR VISSER Did you go to this hotel room which was used as a safehouse? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, we went to that hotel where we were waiting for their phone call. MR VISSER And there were a number of people in that room present, but you can't remember who they all were, is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, there were some people who were together with us, but I don't remember their identity. MR VISSER But one of the persons that you can remember is a certain Joseph Pitse(?), is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct. MR VISSER And you refer to him in your amnesty application at page 196, at the first paragraph marked with a *, Chairperson "Ek en een of twee agente was myself en Joseph Pitse." The only point I want to make about this is that insofar as the impression may be created that it was you and Pitse who worked together in this infiltration of Sansco, would that be correct, or was that not the position? MR MOSHUALIBA It was not like that, as it is written on that document because I was not working with him on a daily basis, he was working at a different field, though he was doing the same job, the same work of infiltration. MR VISSER Alright. But for what it's worth, he was present in the hotel room. And did any telephone calls come through to that hotel room on that particular Saturday? ...(end of side A of tape) MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, the first call was from Louis where he was informing me that they've arrived in Swaziland, though they've arrived late, but they were not able to find a person where he was directed. MR VISSER At the post office? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what time did this telephone call come through from Louis Mohale? MR MOSHUALIBA It was at night, I think it was around 9 o'clock to 10 o'clock. MR VISSER Did he also inform you about whether they had met any persons in Swaziland or not? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, he told me that he met some people in Swaziland and then they made arrangements to meet again the following day, which was on Sunday. MR VISSER Did you ask Louis Mohale any particulars about whom he met and what the meeting was about? MR MOSHUALIBA No, I did not ask anything because I did not want to engage in the conversation for a long time with them. MR VISSER Alright. What did you tell Mohale to do? MR MOSHUALIBA ...(no English interpretation) MR VISSER No, it's not that. MR MOSHUALIBA I informed him to return to the post office where we agreed that he would meet those people. MR VISSER And did you then end that telephone conversation? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the other call that came in about, who was the person who called and what did you hear about what was said on that occasion? MR MOSHUALIBA The second call was from a white person, it was a white person who called. MR VISSER How could you tell? MR MOSHUALIBA It's because of his voice that I learnt that he was a white person. Then I handed over the call to Mr Coetzee. MR VISSER Yes. Was any report made to you about what that call was about? MR MOSHUALIBA No, I was not informed about that telephonic conversation. MR VISSER Did Coetzee tell the people in the room what the call was about? MR MOSHUALIBA I learnt that it was a call from the people who met those people in Swaziland, though I did not know their identity. MR VISSER Up to this stage, did you suspect anything might happen to Louis Mohale and his companions? MR MOSHUALIBA Up to the point where we received these two calls I would explain that I did not have a suspicion that anything wrong would happen to these people in Swaziland. I did not have any suspicion at that time, or before these two calls. MR VISSER And after the two calls, what did you then suspect might be happening? MR MOSHUALIBA I suspected that those people would be directed to an ambush. MR VISSER And they might be eliminated? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And in point of fact, a day or two later you were informed that that is exactly what had happened? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, I learnt from Mr Coetzee that something like that happened. MR VISSER Were you surprised when he told you that? MR MOSHUALIBA I would not say I was surprised that much, because at Saturday night that is where I started to have a suspicion that something like that would happen. That that information confirmed the suspicions which I had, that those people would be killed. MR VISSER Did you receive your car back, the one that you lent to Louis Mohale and the other two people? MR MOSHUALIBA Not at all, I did not get it back because Mr Coetzee told me that that car has been damaged. MR VISSER Did you get another car from the police? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, it happened that I was given another car which was similar to the one I had before. MR VISSER It was identical to the one you had before, it had the same numberplates, not so? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And was that car then registered in your - or well, sorry Chairperson, that's a stupid question, I'll withdraw that. You could have, should have reported what you learnt from Coetzee, a day or two later, about what had happened to these people, shouldn't you? MR MOSHUALIBA Yes, I was supposed to report to the police. MR VISSER Why didn't you, Mr Moshualiba? MR MOSHUALIBA At the time when this incident happened people were murdered from all sides, therefore it was difficult for me to take that step because I was working under the instructions of the people I was working under. MR VISSER Did you consider that there was a war going on in this country? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, Chairperson, there was war in this country at that time. MR VISSER And according to your perceptions, what role did MK, Umkhonto weSizwe, play in that war? MR MOSHUALIBA MK was planning to overthrow the government with force. MR VISSER And who were legitimate targets to MK? MR MOSHUALIBA According to my knowledge, the people who were targets and those who should be eliminated mainly were members of the police, members of the South African Defence Force and those people who were enhancing the objectives of the previous government, like members of the municipal councils. MR VISSER And this war, where did your loyalties lie? MR MOSHUALIBA At that time I was a policeman, my loyalty lay with the police and I was working under the instructions of the South African Police, therefore I associated myself with the decisions taken by the police. MR VISSER And you ask for amnesty for any offence or delict committed by you in regard to this incident, is that correct? MR MOSHUALIBA That is correct, I'm asking amnesty in that regard. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR HATTINGH Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR BOOYENS Booyens on record, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you. MR CORNELIUS Cornelius on record, Mr Chair, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR ROSSOUW Rossouw, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR NEL Nel, no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR BOTHA Botha, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA MR VAN HEERDEN Van Heerden, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, it's been indicated to me by the family of Thabo Mohale that they need an opportunity to speak to me. I request an adjournment, there's a lot of new information which has only now been placed before this Committee. CHAIRPERSON How long do you think you'll need? MR VAN HEERDEN Mr Chairman, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Shall we take the adjournment now, because I ask you to bear in mind that as I said at the beginning, we are going to adjourn at three thirty at the latest. MR VAN HEERDEN Mr Chairman, I think we should take an adjournment until tomorrow, it might save a lot of time after proper instructions. CHAIRPERSON Nine thirty tomorrow morning, gentlemen? Right, we'll adjourn till nine thirty tomorrow. There's no problems about this applicant remaining here, are there? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I haven't made enquiries about that, there may or there may not ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Your attorney appears to be satisfied. MR VISSER We'd better make enquiries, Mr Chairman, yes. We'll make enquiries and if there's really a problem, well then we can do nothing about it anyway. We'll solve the problem, Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS