amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-04 PRETORIA 5 LODEWYK DE JAGER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53727&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271005_pre_991004pt.htm ON RESUMPTION MR SIBANYONI Your full names please? MR DE JAGER Lodewyk de Jager, Mr Chairperson. LODEWYK DE JAGER (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Thank you, please be seated. Sworn in Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Col de Jager, you are an applicant in the current matter, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And your application appears in the Bundle, from pages 40 to 60, where you deal with the particular incident on page 49 to 59, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you confirm the contents of that statement subject to the submission that you will make to the Committee now? MR DE JAGER Yes, I do Chairperson. MR VISSER You have also studied the "General Background to Amnesty", Exhibit A, do you agree with that and do you request that that information and evidence be incorporated into your evidence? MR DE JAGER I do so Chairperson. MR VISSER During 1986, December, you were attached to the Security Branch at Soweto, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And you were attached to the Intelligence Division? MR DE JAGER I was the Overhead Commander. MR VISSER You were the Divisional Commander, you were saying the Divisional Commander was Ignatius Coetzee? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And the previous two applicants, Pretorius and Coetzee, were they directly under your command? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You have heard the evidence of Colonels Coetzee and Pretorius, with regard to the information as to the Intelligence which the members of Soweto had at their disposal and the meeting that was held in Middelburg, Transvaal, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER Do you confirm the correctness of the evidence as far as you recall, as to what the two gentlemen testified here this morning? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And in paragraph 5 you have given the names of the persons as far as you can recall, who were present during that meeting, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER Is it correct that what was discussed there at that meeting, was the severe increase of explosions and political violence in the country and specifically in the Transvaal? MR DE JAGER Indeed Chairperson. MR VISSER The informer or the agent SWT180 was known to you? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And because of information which Pretorius and Coetzee supplied, especially with regard to MK's activities in Swaziland? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And you were also familiar with the activities of a group of MK members in Swaziland, who grouped themselves under the name MK September? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And in paragraph 10, according to your knowledge, you have set out who the members were according to information which you had at your disposal, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And the information to which was testified by the previous two applicants, Coetzee and Pretorius, according to an answer of Col Coetzee on a question by the Honourable Chairperson, as to the members who were present during this meeting? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the feeling at the meeting, Colonel, when all this information was tabled with regard to the violence in the Transvaal, what was the decision that was taken? How did they feel about this action and so forth? MR DE JAGER We agreed that we would launch a preemptive strike and that the persons involved had to be eliminated. MR VISSER Yes, and in your application, you have also said that the government would firstly ask for clarity before an action would be launched, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct, and indeed I meant the Security Head Office and not the government. MR VISSER At paragraph 17, would you please proceed from there and tell the Committee what your recollection was with regard to the run up to this incident? MR DE JAGER I accompanied Gen Ig Coetzee to Head Office where we held a meeting, where briefly the whole matter was discussed and Gen van der Merwe gave approval that members of Soweto in cooperation with Col de Kock's team would launch the operation as soon as possible, in order to prevent any further loss of life and acts of terror. MR VISSER Colonel, what was the position of Gen van der Merwe at that stage? MR DE JAGER Gen van der Merwe was the Head of Security. MR VISSER Against whom would this action be launched? MR DE JAGER It would be against the September Machinery under the command of Glory Sidibe and any other members who were present. MR VISSER So whoever you found there, who according to you were members of this cell, would be the target of this action? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER The decision or the authorisation of Gen van der Merwe, you deal with that in paragraph 19. Will you please tell the Committee, was it something that was decided upon quickly or was it discussed over a period of time, what is the situation? MR DE JAGER With respect, it was not a decision that was taken lightly. We submitted it in detail to Gen van der Merwe and there was a discussion with regard to the whole incident, but I am not able to say as to how long it took for the decision to be made, but it was not something that was made lightly. MR VISSER Was it then decided that immediately the following day, the action would be launched? MR DE JAGER Yes Chairperson, we decided to act as soon as possible. MR VISSER Would you then submit to the Committee what you recall? MR DE JAGER Gen Coetzee, Ig Coetzee and I returned to Soweto where we conveyed the news that the operation was approved to Col Coetzee and Pretorius and told them to arrange to go along with SWT180 to Swaziland. The arrangement was that all of us would participate in the operation, and we would convene on the Saturday, the 13th of December 1986 at one of the two Holiday Inns in Mmbabane. Col Pretorius and I entered Swaziland via Nersden border post with false passports. Col Coetzee would go into Swaziland via Oshoek on his own, because he would have to manage SWT180 from Oshoek border post. In order to eliminate any suspicion, SWT180 moved on his own in a vehicle. MR VISSER As Col Coetzee had testified this morning, you during the course of the day, arrived at this Holiday Inn and met with the other members amongst others, Col de Kock, Capt Paul van Dyk and Deetlefs and Pine Pienaar from the Eastern Transvaal and Sgt Douw Willemse was also there, is that correct and there you discussed the matter and is it also correct that from there, Colonels Coetzee and Pretorius on two occasions, went for meetings with SWT180, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And they returned to you to report to you with regard to the status quo, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you agree with the evidence that you have heard here of Col Coetzee as to what was reported to you and that you discussed it that day in the hotel there? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And eventually the decision was taken to act the very same evening, rather than waiting for the following day for reasons as put forward by Col Coetzee? MR DE JAGER Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And at some stage you then moved from the hotel room to the safehouse, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And at this stage, a sketch plan was drawn up. Would this concur with what you have before you, Exhibit B? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER According to your recollection, this was basically the layout as it appeared on Exhibit B, the layout of the house? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER Do you concur with the evidence that Col de Kock gave instructions that the action would be launched only if it was determined that at least MK Pantsu would be present in the house, so that they would have the surety that members of MK September Machinery were present in the house before they acted? MR DE JAGER That is so Chairperson. MR VISSER Who was in command in Swaziland during this operation? MR DE JAGER Col de Kock was the Operational Commander, Chairperson. MR VISSER Were you senior to him? MR DE JAGER I am not certain where we were on the list of seniority, Chairperson, but I would assume that we had the same rank. MR VISSER However that may be, he was the Operational Commander and as such you served under his command during the operation? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You are saying on page 5, on paragraph 33 of Exhibit E that the operational planning was done by Col de Kock and you mention the conditions of the action there. Would you please proceed to paragraph 34 and submit to the Committee what your role was? MR DE JAGER The members were deployed, using the sketch plan of the house. Capt van Dyk and I had to secure one of the bedrooms. MR VISSER Which bedroom was this? MR DE JAGER That would be "bedroom 1" on the sketch, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you concur with the first sketch of Exhibit B while SWT180 knocked on the door, you would be more or less where you are indicated here? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And after the door had opened, you immediately went into the room, directly behind Col de Kock. Did you see whether Col de Kock did anything? MR DE JAGER He shot the person who opened the door. MR VISSER And later it seemed that that was Sipho? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And from there, where did you move to? MR DE JAGER I stormed into bedroom 1, along with Capt van Dyk and in the doorway I observed a figure, and I fired on the person. MR VISSER What was the person doing? MR DE JAGER The person was standing upright and tried to run passed us into the lounge. I fired on this person, I am not certain whether Capt van Dyk also fired a shot, but the person ran passed us and where the word is "Buzi" in the lounge, the person fell down. MR VISSER This was a female person? MR DE JAGER This is what we determined later. MR VISSER Can you recall how many shots you fired? MR DE JAGER I cannot recall Chairperson, it was several shots. MR VISSER But is it possible that you could have hit the person and killed the person? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And now you are saying that several shots were fired in the house, in paragraph 37 of page 6 of Exhibit E and you say that SWT180 identified the persons as MK Pantsu, MK Sipho and MK Buzi directly after the shooting incident as it is also indicated in Exhibit B? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And all three of them were members of the September Machinery according to your knowledge? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And the specific conduct of yourself, you put this forward in paragraph 38, in paragraph 39 you refer to ANC/SACP propaganda material which was found, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And certain weapons, what happened to the material and the weapons? MR DE JAGER With the assistance of the present members, it was loaded into the minibus and I drove it out of Swaziland. MR VISSER Very well. In paragraph 41 you say that you also heard that evening that there was a proposal that SWT180 be eliminated? MR DE JAGER I would imagine something like that Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you recall who made that proposal? MR DE JAGER I would want to believe that it was Col de Kock. MR VISSER There was apparently a problem whether the person SWT180 could be trusted, was that also your impression? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Will you proceed with paragraph 43? MR DE JAGER Early the Saturday morning, 14 December 1986, we left Swaziland, close to the Oshoek border post in a convoy illegally, afterwards we reported to Brig Schoon and Gen Ig Coetzee, where they waited for us at Oshoek border post. After we reported, I was told by Brig Schoon to follow Col de Kock to the house of the Commissioner of the SAP, Gen Coetzee, next to Brooklyn police station in Pretoria. I drove the minibus with the items in there. Brig Schoon briefly reported to Gen Coetzee that we had launched an action against terrorists and that three of them had been killed, and that we had confiscated weapons and propaganda material. Gen Coetzee was very much interested in the propaganda material and he congratulated us with our successful operation. MR VISSER Can you recall at which time, at what point in the day did you arrive at Col Coetzee's house? MR DE JAGER If I recall correctly, it was in the vicinity of breakfast, it was Sunday morning. It may have been nine o'clock Chairperson, it may have been later. MR VISSER I apologise Mr Chairman. Please proceed. MR DE JAGER On a later occasion, I was present at a function at Vlakplaas where we and other colleagues of the Security Branch were thanked on behalf of the government by Min Adriaan Vlok, then the Minmster of Law and Order. MR VISSER The reason why you mention this in paragraph 55, that this action was indeed in 1986 in December, is that not so, and we have already heard evidence from Min Vlok about - and coincidentally the three members who sit now on the panel, were involved in the London bomb incident and the Khotso and COSATU House incident, that Min Vlok had indeed twice visited Vlakplaas, once on occasion when computers were confiscated during the Operation Vula incident and the other occasion was in 1989, at a year end function, and the point being, I would just like to assist you if you thought that Min Vlok referred to this particular incident, it would seem that you are mistaken, would you accept that? MR DE JAGER I would accept that. MR VISSER In any case, that was your viewpoint that politicians and or senior officers were aware of actions which were launched in a similar manner and as for example, this operation and that it carried their approval? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER You have repeated the same political motivations, do you confirm what you say in your application with regard to the political objective as well as Exhibit E and do you request that the Committee considers this when considering your action during this incident? MR DE JAGER Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER And then you request amnesty for any offence or delict committed by you in this incident, on the mentioned date at Swaziland as it may seem from the evidence? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record. Mr de Jager, I observe that you mention that you crossed the border with the assistance of fraudulent passports, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR HATTINGH We have already heard that such passports were issued to members of Vlakplaas, were these also issued to other members of the Security Branch, specifically members who managed sources and informants across the border and this was officially issued to you, with the approval of the seniors? MR DE JAGER The passports were received from Head Office, I would accept that they had knowledge. MR HATTINGH In paragraph 18 of your statement, may I just refer you to that, where you mention the meeting along with Gen van der Merwe and you say there it was possible that Mr de Kock was present, do you not have a clear recollection whether he was? MR DE JAGER No Chairperson. He was there in all probability if we keep in mind that he was the Operational Commander and that he would lead the operation, I would not have a problem if he says that he was not present. MR HATTINGH That is his problem, he cannot recall whether he was there or not. You do not have a recollection? MR DE JAGER No. MR HATTINGH Very well. And then finally with regard to reporting back to Gen Coetzee, after the operation, did you also report to him that this operation was carried out in Swaziland? MR DE JAGER The speaker of our group was Brig Schoon. I did not report myself. MR HATTINGH But the persons who reported to him, was it reported to him that the operation had taken place in Swaziland, was he aware of that? MR DE JAGER I cannot say that the word "Swaziland" was used, but I see no reason as to why it was not used. MR HATTINGH That is correct and if he had asked where the operation had taken place, then there was no reason as to why you would not tell him the truth? MR DE JAGER No, because it was an operation sanctioned by Head Office. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR ROSSOUW Thank you Chairperson, Rossouw, I've got no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Prinsloo, Chairperson, Mr de Jager, the two applicants whom I represent, Pienaar and Deetlefs will testify that they were also present when report was made to Gen Coetzee by Brig Schoon, do you confirm that? MR DE JAGER I will not dispute that, it is very possible. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Thank you Chairperson. Exhibit B, the sketch plan which was handed up on your behalf, you have testified that you went to bedroom 1 after you entered the house? MR DE JAGER Yes, my name has to be ... MS VAN DER WALT I see your name is mentioned at the door, because Mr van Dyk confirms your evidence that you were undoubtedly along with him in the room. Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI I notice that Buzi's MK name is reflected as Buzi, does it mean that Buzi was her actual name? MR DE JAGER The MK name is normally the pseudonym which an operator would use in order to disguise his or her real identity Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI But would you say then that the name Buzi Majola refers to her actual name? MR DE JAGER That could be so that the person might then in fact have been using the same as the MK name, I did not do the actual identification per se myself before or after the operation, so that might possibly be so. MR SIBANYONI Usually an MK name would be a name totally different from the actual name, so as not to give any clue for example if the actual name is Sipho Dlamini, his MK name will not be Sipho. Do you agree with me? MR DE JAGER You said usually, yes, Mr Chairman, but there might be the exception too. I really cannot seriously comment on that, I apologise. MR SIBANYONI In fact what I am trying to find out, were all these people MK people including this woman? MR DE JAGER If I might just elaborate on that with the permission of the Chairman, in my position as the Commander of the Intelligence Unit, I had access to all reports and I followed this whole let's call it investigation from day one, when SWT180 initially made contact with the group, and in all those reports, this person came through as a possible trainer, a probable trainer and also a person who might have given instructions. What I would like to stress to the Committee is that I was sure the day that we went in there, that this person would not be an innocent, sir. MR SIBANYONI I was just trying to find out, clear up, whether was it not merely a girlfriend to Pantsu, because according to the sketch here, she was in the same room as Pantsu? MR DE JAGER Yes, but there were only two bedrooms. I really cannot comment on that Mr Chairman, I apologise. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. ADV DE JAGER In paragraph 14 you refer that you believed that it would be cleared with the government, were you always under that impression or at any stage, were you under the impression that this type of operation, had received government approval? MR DE JAGER If you would allow me to put it in broader terms, before this operation, there was the operation in Botswana where 12 persons were killed, where the government acknowledged the operation and it was on TV and before that there was the Matola operation, and in my position I met with senior people and I had no doubt whatsoever that this operation had the approval of the government of the day, no doubt whatsoever. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. I think reference was made to a Black Christmas, was this during this year that the plan was that there would be a Black Christmas? MR DE JAGER I can recall that there was a planned Black Christmas, I cannot say whether this would have been this year, but I will not be able to dispute it. ADV DE JAGER I know Mr Pik Botha also referred to it in his submission that he made and questions that he asked? MR DE JAGER That is probably so, because such names were given to these operations. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR DE JAGER Thank you sir. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, this witness comes from Cape Town, I think, and we were wondering whether it would be possible perhaps for him to be excused, Mr Chairman. He is also one of those exceptionals that still works, Mr Chairman. His evidence is covered by the evidence ... CHAIRPERSON I cannot see anything that he is a single witness on? MR VISSER No. His evidence seems to be covered by the evidence of ... CHAIRPERSON It seems to me also, subject to what you gentlemen have to say, that in this type of hearing, the same as last week, if there is any point you wish to raise, it could perhaps be done by fax and affidavits, rather than recall a witness? MR VISSER Yes. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well, you are excused. MR DE JAGER Thank you sir. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER And it seems that we have gone three minutes passed your time of lunch, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We will now adjourn until two o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS