amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-07 DURBAN 8 ZAHRAH NARKEDIEN (NEE GRETA APELGREN) AM4028/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53743&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271013_dbn_991007db.htm MR DEHAL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, sorry, the point I was going to raise earlier is that Ms Narkedien was otherwise known as Greta Apelgren, has a blood pressure problem. She has a low blood pressure. She has some lollies in front of her. She takes those just to keep her sugar level fine. I just didn't want that to sound disrespectful if she did so. CHAIRPERSON No and Ms Narkedien, if you need to have any break or whatever, just let Mr Dehal know and we can take any short break that you require. MS NARKEDIEN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Do you wish to take the oath, or do you wish to make an affirmation? MS NARKEDIEN Affirmation, please. MS NARKEDIEN (affirms) MR DEHAL Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL Ms Narkedien, is it correct that you were previously known as Greta Apelgren? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, it's true. MR DEHAL Do you confirm your application for amnesty as contained in bundle A1 on pages 180 to 186? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I do. MR DEHAL That application is brought in the name of Zarah Narkedien, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL I think you clarified in that application how your name came to be changed? MS NARKEDIEN I'm not sure. MR DEHAL Okay, we'll deal with that briefly. Ms Narkedien, is it correct that you have prepared a written statement and would like to read that into the record? Perhaps before we begin, if I may just give copies to everybody? Thank you. Do you mind? CHAIRPERSON Will this be Exhibit P I think. Exhibit P. MR DEHAL Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, we'll mark this Exhibit P and I think that that formerly should be "erly", rather than "ally". MR DEHAL I would think so, yes. I'm sorry. Ms Narkedien would you read paragraph 1 which deals with identifying particulars, into the record? MS NARKEDIEN Okay. My name is Zarah Narkedien, formerly Greta Apelgren. I was born in Durban on the 14th of August 1956. MR DEHAL Slower please. You see the interpreters would have to go through them and interpret them bit by bit. We've just handed a copy to them, so they would be able to do so easily. Let's just wait until they get it. Fine, you may proceed. MS NARKEDIEN I spent most of my life in the working class township of Wentworth. I presently reside in Kimberley. I've been resident in Kimberley since December 1995, when I took up the position as Director of Welfare for the Northern Cape Administration. I graduated from the University of the Western Cape in 1978 with majors in Social Work and Sociology. During the 1976 student protests, I learned the full realities of how oppressive and destructive apartheid was in the lives of black youth, MR DEHAL Sorry, slower. MS NARKEDIEN particularly in terms of the old black education and the merciless violence of the previous government towards black youth, shooting children in the school yards and in the streets. MR DEHAL Ms Narkedien is it correct that your application for amnesty relates to simply four counts in regard to which you were convicted during the trial that we spoke of in which you were the co-accused with Mr McBride? MS NARKEDIEN Actually five counts. MR DEHAL Sorry, five counts. Thank you. And is it correct that you were acquitted of all the other counts that you were charged with? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that is correct. MR DEHAL And you seek amnesty only in regard to those counts that you were convicted on? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL Sorry, before I proceed - and this application for amnesty is in your handwriting, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, thank you, it is. MR DEHAL Were you assisted in completing this application by any attorney, advocate? MS NARKEDIEN No, I completed it myself. MR DEHAL Thank you. Now will you go to paragraph 2, which deals with your civic involvement? MS NARKEDIEN Okay. From 1980 to 1986, I helped establish and manage the Wentworth Development Centre, which focused mostly on the social development needs of the youth of Wentworth. I was an executive member of the Board of Management of the centre. I was an executive member of the Local Civic Organisation. I was an active member of the local Catholic church, working mostly with youth programmes, I was an active member of the Natal Youth Organisation. Prior to my arrest, I was employed as a professional community development officer by the Durban Child and Family welfare Society, dealing mostly with issues affecting township women and children, impacted upon mainly by the inequalities of apartheid. MR DEHAL MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that is true. MR DEHAL Okay. Will you read that please? Slowly please. MS NARKEDIEN Okay. During 1983 to 1985, I was an active member of the political organisation known as the United Democratic Front, UDF, as well as an active member of my local township branch of the UDF, referred to as the Wentworth United Committee of Concern, UCC. Through these structures, I campaigned actively against the tricameral elections because it deliberately excluded African people from that political dispensation. African people would continue to be denied their democratic rights to vote. Shortly after the unbanning of the ANC in 1990, I became an executive member of the Wentworth branch of the ANC, an executive member of the Provincial Natal ANC Youth League, an executive member of the Provincial Natal ANC Welfare Committee. MR DEHAL MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL Will you read what's recorded in paragraph 4, Exhibit P, into the record? MS NARKEDIEN In January 1986, I was recruited by comrade Robert McBride to become a member of a Special Operations Unit of Umkhonto weSizwe, the military wing of the African National Congress. My role at that stage was only to provide support, example transport, money, screening of more women recruits and so on to the Commander and operatives in our unit. I was involved in this unit from January 1986 to July 1986, when I was arrested together with comrade Robert McBride and his father comrade Derick McBride. MR DEHAL Is it correct that you lived in Wentworth with Mr McBride, Robert and Mr Derick McBride in your neighbourhood? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL And you featured prominently in the social environment, social upliftment of Wentworth? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL The next paragraph deals with your amnesty application. Will you please read that into the record. That's paragraph 5. MS NARKEDIEN I was arrested on the 17th of July 1986. I was detained under Section 29 of the Internal Security Act until early November, 1986 when I was transferred to Westville Female Prison and held in solitary confinement. I was charged with 15 counts of furthering the aims of a banned organisation, ANC, terrorism, murder, attempted murder, aiding a prisoner to escape and harbouring a terrorist. From February to mid May 1987, I stood trial at Pietermaritzburg Supreme Court. I was convicted of 5 of the 15 counts. 4 counts relate to the escape of Gordon Webster from the Edendale Hospital and one account relates to the reconnaissance I undertook of electrical substations, located between Nigel and Ladismith. I applied for amnesty for these five counts, that is aiding a prisoner to escape, harbouring a terrorist, assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm, as regards the two policemen, and terrorism. MR DEHAL And the two policemen you talk of are the policemen who featured at the Edendale operation? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL And the terrorism counts here dealt with, sorry and the terrorism counts together with all the acts on which you apply for amnesty are not acts of gross human rights violations? MS NARKEDIEN No. MR DEHAL Is it correct when you appeared at the Section 29 inquiry you were told by the persons there presiding that you would not be required to attend any Hearing and that your application for amnesty would be heard in chambers? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL But you were then served with a notice to attend here? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL And you're cited as an applicant? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL Thank you. Now before you proceed, is it also correct, that you testified before the TRC Human Rights Violations dealing with torture in prisons and detention cells? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL You dealt with your detention prior to your trial and thereafter? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL That's contained in the TRC report in the 6th volume of 5 volume TRC report, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes it's true. MR DEHAL What we have here Mr Chairman, is only the one page from the report. Unfortunately it came to me about half and hour ago. I don't have copies made. I will arrange for those copies. Ms Narkedien, may I just take you firstly to paragraph ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Ms Narkedien, can you explain something here? You formulate the one offence as harbouring a terrorist, would that be Mr Webster? MS NARKEDIEN Gordon Webster, yes. JUDGE PILLAY Is that the period where you assisted in getting him out of the country? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Dehal, do you intend to hand this in as an Exhibit? We'll call it Q. MR DEHAL Yes, I think that will be wise. CHAIRPERSON And then copies will be made and circulated to all concerned as soon as they're available? MR DEHAL Correct. Thank you. MS NARKEDIEN Okay, what I'm going to read is actually the effects of solitary confinement, when I spent 7 months in the basement at Klerksdorp Female Prison. "I had to go down and live in the basement in isolation for 7 months". MR DEHAL You're reading an extract of your testimony then, which is contained in the TRC Report, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL It's on page 211 to 212, in Volume 4, chapter 7. Sorry Chairperson, this is contained in those volumes of TRC reports. They are not here. I don't think any of us have it. I had it here the other day, but I returned them, sorry. MS NARKEDIEN Okay. "That was very, very painful. I don't even want to describe psychologically what I had to do to survive down there. I will write it down, I will write it one day, but I could never tell you, but it did teach me something and that is that no human being can live alone more than, I think, even 1 month, because there's nothing you can do to survive by yourself every single day. The basement was an entire wing of the prison, it was actually an entire floor. I felt as the months went by that I was going deeper and deeper into the ground. Physically I wasn't, but psychologically I was. I became so psychologically damaged that I used to feel that all these cells, because there were a whole lot of other cells that were empty but they were locked, that to feel all these cells are like coffins and there were all dead people in there. It was as if I was alive and all these people were dead. I was so disturbed but I would never, never let the wardresses know, but they did destroy me. My suggestion is that no prisoner, regardless of their crimes, should ever be in isolation per se, not even this Section 29 business for two weeks. I know it serves a purpose but ultimately when it's prolonged, I don't think anybody can handle it. I've been out of prison now for more than 7 or 10 years, but I haven't recovered and I will never recover, I know I won't." I have tried to. Sorry. CHAIRPERSON Would you like to have a short break? MS NARKEDIEN No, it's okay. The first two years after my release I tried to be normal again and the more I struggled to be normal, the more disturbed I became. I had to accept that I was damaged. A part of my soul was eaten away as if by maggots, horrible as it sounds, and it will never get back again. Sorry, this was the worst part of my life. I think I'll be okay later on. MR DEHAL Sorry. Ms Narkedien, is it correct that the preceding paragraphs, paragraph 40 and 41 which we are not going to deal with, dealt with equally horrific torture experiences you had, which you testified on, prior to your trial at the hands of the then Security Police. MS NARKEDIEN Sorry, where are you reading from? Oh yes, unfortunately I didn't photocopy the pages properly, but I had also testified about the torture during the first 7 days that I was arrested by the Security Police. MR DEHAL Thank you. If I may take you back to Exhibit P, we stopped at paragraph 5. We now go to paragraph 6, which deals with the escape of Gordon Webster, the Edendale Hospital Operation. You begin there by dealing with aiding the prisoner to escape. I see here you've dealt with each of the counts as you were convicted of and you have paraphrased it into each of those succeeding paragraphs, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL Now, let's deal with the first, dealing with aiding a prisoner to escape. MS NARKEDIEN Okay. On the evening of the 4th of May 1986, I assisted Robert McBride, Derick McBride, Welile Khumalo, Antonio Du Preez and Matthew Lecordier to rescue our MK Commander, know to me by the name of Steve Mkhize, but later identified by the name of Gordon Webster. He had been in the intensive care ward at the Edendale Hospital under armed police guard at the time of his escape. My role was to wait under a bridge near the hospital to where Robert and others would bring Gordon and I then had to drive him immediately back to Wentworth, to Robert's father's workshop. I was unable to fulfil my actual role that evening because Welile had approached my car and insisted I drive him away from the scene, because of the presence of a traffic control officer further down the road, which made him very agitated. Robert and the other unit members drove Gordon to Wentworth. MR DEHAL You then deal with the next count that you are convicted of, namely harbouring or concealing a terrorist, namely Gordon Webster. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL Will you read that please? MS NARKEDIEN Okay. During the week of the 5th to the 8th of May 1986 I assisted Robert and others to move Gordon from the workshop to a house somewhere in the Umlazi township. On Friday the 9th of May 1986 I assisted Robert to transport Gordon Webster and his girlfriend Anne to Botswana where they were then transported by MK comrades to a safe-house in Gaberone. JUDGE PILLAY Mr Dehal, can you tell me what section of that Act this harbouring is a transgression of? MR DEHAL Judge, I would be able to tell you that. I have volume 1 here, shall we go through this and come back to that or shall I deal with it now? JUDGE PILLAY No, no you carry on. MR DEHAL Thank you. Ms Narkedien, we now deal with paragraph 8, assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm. Now before we begin with this, this is the assault in regard to which you were convicted based on the doctrine of common purpose on the Edendale operation relating to two policemen, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL Before we begin, can I just get to that? Would this be - sorry that's the operation in which Mr Buthelezi died and the victims were Constable Ngcobo, Constable Visagie, Siphiwe Shangeni, Nkosinati Nkabinde. Which would the two policemen be, do you remember? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. Constable Ngcobo and Visagie, Constable Visagie. MR DEHAL Thank you. Will you please read the content of that paragraph then into the record? MS NARKEDIEN Okay. During the rescue operation at Edendale Hospital, two armed police officers on guard in the intensive care ward, were wounded during the shoot-out and returned fire inside and outside intensive care ward. Although my role and my position were situated approximately two kilometres from the scene, I was nevertheless convicted of the assault of these two police officers on the grounds of common purpose. MR DEHAL Thank you. Judge the aspect dealing with harbouring or concealing - Oh sorry, I see you've got some pages with you, it's dealt with on page 16 of the indictment, column 12, it's Section 54(iv) of Act 74 of 1982 and it's dealt with in the summary more fully from page 41 onwards. JUDGE PILLAY Why I asked is just that I thought it would be more pleasing on the palate to refer it to as a contravention of a section, rather than terrorists. MR DEHAL I agree. Thank you. Okay, Ms Narkedien, you're at paragraph 8, did you read that in? No sorry, I don't think you did that. MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I did. MR DEHAL Did you? CHAIRPERSON She's read paragraph 8. We're now going on to paragraph 9. MR DEHAL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Paragraph 9 deals with the reconnaissance of substations. You were there convicted of terrorism, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL And you said during July 1986 on your trip from Johannesburg to Durban on Robert's instructions you recorded the positions of several electrical substations from Nigel to Ladismith? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL These were recorded on an envelope that you had on your person when you were arrested. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL And when the Security Police saw this envelop, they questioned you about it. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL All that was recorded on the envelope were positions from Johannesburg to here and different distances. MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL Is it correct that when you speak of Johannesburg to Durban, this was a return trip before your intention to finally depart from the country? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL When I say yours, I mean yours and Robert McBride's. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL And what was the purpose of doing this reconnaissance? Was it to take it out of the country or was it to carry out the operations? MS NARKEDIEN At the time Robert didn't explain to me why I should take down those notes, but I just assumed in my own way that if he's recording these substations, so many kilometres from this town to that town, that probably it could have been for sabotage, because at that time electrical substations were being sabotaged in different parts of the country, so I thought and we were leaving the country within a few days, perhaps he was going to give that to the MK Commanders or something. MR DEHAL But that didn't happen? MS NARKEDIEN No. MR DEHAL Yes. Now do you know of the discipline commonly referred to as need-to-know discipline? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL Were you formerly recruited by Mr McBride into MK? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I was formerly recruited by him. MR DEHAL And were you educated in the policies, guidelines, etc of the ANC, of MK? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I was trained by Robert and by our Commander, Steve Mkhize, well Gordon Webster eventually, about the importance of, we actually used to call it military code words. In other words you could only be told what your role is. At that time there were so many police informers and so on and we were all so paranoid, so that any person could only be told exactly what you had to do, he could not be told everything, I mean it wasn't a social club that we were working in, it was a very strict unit. MR DEHAL And you understood this principle well? MS NARKEDIEN I understood it and I accepted it. MR DEHAL Is it correct that in the execution of that discipline, that principle, if you were told to do something, especially by a Commander in your unit, you were not allowed to ask questions, you were not expected to ask questions, you were simply required to follow them? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I could not ask questions and I knew even if I did, people would be suspicious of me. Why do you want to ask questions, are you going to carry this information to somebody else. There was far too much paranoia at the time. MR DEHAL For good reasons. MS NARKEDIEN For good reasons, which I understood yes. MR DEHAL Before you - sorry - before you were recruited by McBride into MK, you were sufficiently active at the time though in Wentworth and about? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL And you were familiar with Setchabas, Radio Freedom, Allan Taylor Residence? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. I had access to a lot of banned literature at that time, so I was well informed about what the ANC's policies were, what the Kabwe Conference was and all the needs for the codes of secrecy to be upheld at all times and the discipline of MK units, so I was well-informed, yes. MR DEHAL And I think it's fairly common knowledge by now that both you and comrade Robert had developed a personal relationship during the course of all these operations. Did that personal relationship in any way interfere with the code and the discipline of need-to-know basis? MS NARKEDIEN No, it didn't interfere at all because Robert and I were first and foremost revolutionaries and comrades. It was in this working together that we developed an intimate relationship but we didn't start off as intimate people. MR DEHAL The relationship was incidental? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL Okay, I take you to paragraph 10 wherein you deal with the commitment to reconciliation. Will you please read that? MS NARKEDIEN Okay. It is clear that I was associated in operations which resulted in injuries sustained by victims and the death of Mr Buthelezi. Despite the minimal role I played in these operations, I accept political responsibility for such injuries and death. I express my deep sorrow to the victims concerned and mostly to the parents and the family of the late Mr Buthelezi. MR DEHAL Thank you. Ms Narkedien, we dealt briefly with the other acts in regard to which you were charged but acquitted. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL One of those acts is commonly known as the Why Not, or otherwise colloquially referred to as the Magoo's bar operation. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL You have heard much testimony in these proceedings on that operation. To begin with you've heard Mr McBride's full disclosure on the Why Not operation. Do you agree with his disclosures relating to your role play on that operation, the Why Not operation? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I fully accept what he said. MR DEHAL To deal briefly with the Why Not operation, is it correct that you drove the parties from Wentworth to the Why Not area and then back again? At some stage you drove one car and at other stages with them, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL But that you did not know of the car bomb and that this was the version in the trial and you were acquitted on it? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL In regard to the second Chamberlain Road incident, which comrade Robert deals with in Exhibit G in paragraph 8, is it correct that there as well in as much as you were charged, you were acquitted, but you had simply driven Robert and others away from that substation for about a kilometre away from that substation which is from his father's workshop? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL And that in that operation you had not known of the substation explosion either before or after it? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I did not know before and after it, but subsequently I did discover it because the whole township lights went out. MR DEHAL And then there are those two DLBs, the Shangweni DLBs, which were termed as acts of terrorism in your trial. These are the two that you were acquitted of. Here again, all you did was support as per your role with an MK, in that you drove Robert and various persons in those two operations to the DLB, to the site of the DLB and back, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL The Edendale operation of course, you were convicted on some counts. There are I think about five or six counts that you were acquitted on. MS NARKEDIEN There were four, four of the six. MR DEHAL Murder and the other things? MS NARKEDIEN I was acquitted yes, of the murder and attempted murder. MR DEHAL Yes. There again your role was purely a support role? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL Now your sister, Jeanette Apelgren was a State witness in these trial proceedings at some stage. Do you remember that? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL She suffered terribly as a result. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL Both before she testified and after? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. Mostly psychological damage. MR DEHAL And she's now living in Australia in Victoria in Australia, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL You had facilitated the service of the notice in these proceedings that were addressed to Jeanette Apelgren sent to me and then I gave to you and you sent to Jeanette in Australia, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL Now you've had discussions with her since, by E-mail and on telephone. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR DEHAL Is it correct that she cannot avail herself at these proceedings primarily because of the enormous costs for her to come here and she has no monies and none were offered to her? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL Secondly, is it correct that you have discussed with your sister Jeanette Apelgren the disclosures that McBride, comrade Robert has made here before this Commission and that which you intended to make? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR DEHAL And what is your sister's attitude to these full disclosures? MS NARKEDIEN Well she said she wishes us luck with our amnesty application. She supports our amnesty application and she would really like it if we do get that amnesty and though, I suppose to some extent she did express some anger still towards the system of apartheid, but yes, she fully supports it. MR DEHAL And has she any reservations, misgivings about your full disclosure, the version in your full disclosure and McBride's? MS NARKEDIEN No, she has no problem with that. MR DEHAL Thank you. Sorry, if you'll bear with me. Yes, Chairperson, that is all, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Dehal. Mr Berger, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Ms Narkedien? MR BERGER Chairperson, we support Ms Narkedien's application for amnesty. We have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Kooverjee, do you have any questions that you would like to put? MS KOOVERJEE None, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS KOOVERJEE CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard? MR RICHARD A number, but I won't be that long though. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Now, in and during the months January to end of June 1986, ending at the time that you were arrested, did you travel to and from Botswana with Mr McBride on a number of occasions? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that's true. MR RICHARD Do you recall how many? MS NARKEDIEN I can't recall how many, but I can just try to roughly count on my fingers. I think we went once in February and once again in March, in April, in June, possibly May as well. I think almost once a month virtually, so it was about four or five times. CHAIRPERSON And you would travel in a motor vehicle together by road? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR RICHARD Now when you went to Botswana, did you meet with the first applicant, Mr Ismail? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I did. MR RICHARD Were you present at any discussions between him and Mr McBride? MS NARKEDIEN On the first occasion when I met him there were discussions with a lot of us sitting there. Robert and Rashid were present, but that was a social occasion, probably for just about 5 minutes or so. MR RICHARD Now did you know what the purpose of the trips to Botswana was? MS NARKEDIEN Well when Robert recruited me early in January 1986, he explained to me that he cannot explain the purposes to me. In fact he didn't even tell me that we were going to Gaberone. I discovered when we were in Mafikeng that we were now going - that's where we're actually going. All he could say was that he was a Commissar for the ANC, absolutely nothing else, so I never knew what the purposes really wee. MR RICHARD Now in and during the same period, were you aware that there were various attacks on substations and other installations in and around Durban? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I read about some in the newspapers. MR RICHARD Did you connect your trips to Botswana with the various attacks and various infrastructures? MS NARKEDIEN No. No, not necessarily. MR RICHARD Did you know you were bringing ammunition and weapons and equipment back into South Africa? MS NARKEDIEN No, he didn't tell me, he didn't show it to me, so I didn't know. MR RICHARD Now, you gave evidence concerning dead letter boxes. What's a dead letter box, do you know? MS NARKEDIEN Well I subsequently, when we were preparing for our trial, that it really mean caches of arms that would be stored in some remote place by person A or person B to come and collect. MR RICHARD But at the time, did you know what was being done? MS NARKEDIEN At which time? MR RICHARD At the time you transported Mr McBride and other members of his unit to various places? MS NARKEDIEN No it was not possible to know. MR RICHARD Now on the evening of the 14th of June, 1986 when you went towards the centre of Durban from Wentworth, were you aware that you were going on a mission? MS NARKEDIEN No, I wasn't aware, not at all. MR RICHARD Now, were you aware that two motor vehicles were involved in whatever you were doing? MS NARKEDIEN Sorry, that two vehicles were being used? MR RICHARD > Yes. MS NARKEDIEN Yes, because we travelled in two vehicles. MR RICHARD Now when you arrived, in the centre of Durban, did you drive directly to where you parked the car, or was there a certain amount of driving around to different places? MS NARKEDIEN When I got to the centre of Durban, the city centre...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Take it from when you left the - did you come down the southern freeway when you got off the southern freeway, I think, is that what you're asking? MR RICHARD Yes. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR RICHARD Did you drive directly to a destination or did you go to a number of places? MS NARKEDIEN No, we did go into the city centre round about the, what is it, house and home Hyperama, or something like that and then after that we did go directly down to the beach front area. CHAIRPERSON But Ms Narkedien, if one were coming from the Southern freeway and going to the beach front area, that wouldn't really be out of the way much, would it, to go past that Hyperama? Was that in West Street, or Smith Street or something? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, it's in West Street and you would come off the freeway into West Street and then we stopped there. CHAIRPERSON But what I'm trying to say, it wasn't a circuitous route to get to ... MS NARKEDIEN Oh I see, yes it was on the way, so to speak. MR RICHARD At what time did you leave Wentworth? MS NARKEDIEN I don't recall the time, but I would say it was very early evening. MR RICHARD Early evening on the 16th of June, 14th of June, is near as anything to mid Winter. At what time did it get dark? MS NARKEDIEN Maybe about seven or so. It was like dusk, just getting to dark. MR RICHARD I don't have an almanac with me at this ... CHAIRPERSON It's probably, I know where I live which isn't too far off the longitude of Durban, in mid-winter it's getting dark about half past 5, you're battling with light. MR RICHARD So you'd agree with ...(intervention) MS NARKEDIEN Sorry, I think I must just correct myself, I'm a bit confused now. I think it was much later than that. Dusk had already settled so it would have been much later. MR RICHARD So let's go back again. You left Wentworth. Was it dark? MS NARKEDIEN It was dark already yes. MR RICHARD Was it long after dark? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I would say it was quite a few minutes after dark. I was confusing the dusk with some other time, I'm sorry. MR RICHARD Then you drove into Durban and you stopped outside the house and home complex. How long were you stopped there? MS NARKEDIEN A few minutes, maybe two minutes. MR RICHARD So what time about was that? MS NARKEDIEN No, I don't know. MR RICHARD Was it - if it got dark at half past five to six, quarter past six, was it hours after dark, or shortly after dark? MS NARKEDIEN I'm sure it was much later than us having left, than the times you mention, so what time we left House and Home, staying there for just a few, two minutes of so, I think it would have been quite late into the evening already. I don't know if I answered your question. MR RICHARD No, my time periods came from your statement, early evening. MS NARKEDIEN Yes, no I corrected it. I'm probably confused it with some other time. MR RICHARD I accept that. It's a long time ago. Now, once you left House and Home, did you go anywhere else, or did you drive directly to the Marine Parade? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, we drove directly to the beach front, the Marine Parade area. MR RICHARD And what did you do there? MS NARKEDIEN Well, just following Robert's instructions to drive along the Marine Parade, at that time we had Matthew with us as well. Well, I can't remember how we were driving, or where we were driving, but I do remember driving on the Marine Parade and then we drove back to town because we had left the Cortina there, so we had gone back to House and Home. MR RICHARD So, all three of you drove down to the Marine Parade. Now what was the traffic like on the Marine Parade, was it quiet or busy? MS NARKEDIEN I don't remember. Probably the normal Saturday evening. MR RICHARD Well Durban, a normal Saturday evening, it depends on what time of the year you are. Normal in December is crowded. Normal in September I suppose is less crowded. MS NARKEDIEN I didn't pay attention, so I can't give you an accurate answer there. MR RICHARD Now on that first trip to the beach front, where did you drive to? MS NARKEDIEN On the first trip to the beach front? MR RICHARD Yes. MS NARKEDIEN No we didn't stop anywhere, we just went onto the Marine Parade and came back into town. MR RICHARD Well to get onto the beach front you had to join up with the Marine Parade. Where did you join up with the Marine Parade? MS NARKEDIEN No, I don't remember what route we took. It could have been straight down West Street and straight onto the Marine Parade, that road that leads right down to the Marine Parade. MR RICHARD Now once on the Marine Parade, did you drive from one end of the beach front to the other? MS NARKEDIEN I don't know up to what point did we drive. I mean I should know, but I can't remember. MR RICHARD Now did you spend a long time driving along the beach front? Did you stop anywhere while driving? MS NARKEDIEN No, we didn't stop anywhere. MR RICHARD So, you drove along the beach front. Do you remember what part of the beach front you drove down? MS NARKEDIEN I know we drove on the Marine Parade itself, what do you call that road? Yes, I think it's called the Marine Parade, that road directly facing the beach and the hotels on the opposite side. MR RICHARD What I'm trying to ascertain is whereabouts on that road you drove. Did you drive down on the South Beach side, or the North Beach side? MS NARKEDIEN All I can remember that it was on that part of the beach where most of those hotels were, that I can remember. JUDGE PILLAY ...(indistinct) subsequently you know where the car bomb was placed. Did you drive in that vicinity? MS NARKEDIEN Well, I don't know if we passed that hotel, but I know we passed most of the hotels, so probably we did pass that one. CHAIRPERSON So you went that way rather than past Addington Hospital? MS NARKEDIEN Oh I see what you mean. Yes definitely in the direction of those hotels, towards the Why Not then. MR RICHARD So you would have drive past the Parade Hotel, is that correct? MS NARKEDIEN Most probably, yes. MR RICHARD Now, you drove back to where the blue Cortina was? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR RICHARD Now, once you got to the blue Cortina, what happened? There were three of you in the car, what happened? MS NARKEDIEN Okay. Once we got back there, the two of them just jumped back into the Cortina and Robert said, "Follow me", so I followed them. Then we drove the two cars to a place in Pine Street, I don't know what route we took, but we got there to Pine Street and then Matthew stayed in that Cortina and Robert came into my car after that. MR RICHARD And then what did Robert say to you or instruct you to do? MS NARKEDIEN He asked me to drive back to the beach front, back to the Marine Parade. MR RICHARD And ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just for record purposes, I think Pine Street is a street that runs parallel with West Street, is it, I think it might be the next to West Street. MS NARKEDIEN Yes, we would have had to turn and go back into West Street. CHAIRPERSON Yes. No I just wanted to put that on. MR RICHARD So from the Pine Street stop, you drove back to the beach front. Did Robert, sorry, did Mr McBride tell you where to drive on the beach front? MS NARKEDIEN I just drove until he wanted me to stop somewhere or whatever he wanted, then when we got to the Parade Hotel, he did ask me to stop the car there. MR RICHARD On which side of the road were you, on the left or the right? Which way were you going, better still? MS NARKEDIEN We were driving down towards, like maybe the snake park if I can put it like that, so we would be on the left-hand side of the road? MR RICHARD So you were driving from Addington side to the snake park side, which is in a northerly manner. Now you said, when you got to the Parade Hotel, what were you told to do? MS NARKEDIEN What he asked me to do was, there was a parking space that he saw there on the corner, so to speak and he asked me to drive the Mazda into that corner, ag, into that space. MR RICHARD Now did you observe anything about what was going on at the Parade Hotel? MS NARKEDIEN Actually it was very quiet, if I can recall. It was very quiet in terms of, I didn't see any people at that time. I did notice that corner bar, whatever it's called, that it had tinted glass, but I couldn't see anybody in there. There was no one walking in and out of the hotel. It actually was just quiet, I would say. MR RICHARD You didn't hear music, people going in and out? MS NARKEDIEN No, my windows were all closed, so I didn't hear music. MR RICHARD Now was parking a problem in that area, or not? MS NARKEDIEN How do you mean a problem? MR RICHARD Was the traffic busy, was it easy to find parking? MS NARKEDIEN Well I wasn't the one looking for parking, so... CHAIRPERSON When you went there, Ms Narkedien, did you have to go around the block until a parking space became available, or did you, when you got to the vicinity of the hotel, find an open space in which the vehicle was parked? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, as we got near to this hotel, he did point out a parking space to me, so it was there just as we arrived. MR RICHARD Now on the Marine Parade in general that particular night, when you drove up and down, were parking spots easy to find and many parking spots available, or was the parking congested. MS NARKEDIEN As I say, I was not looking for the parking, I simply drove with him and waited for each instruction, so we drove down that road, as we got to that hotel, there was a parking, you could actually see it as we were coming up, so we didn't drive around. MR RICHARD And that was on your first attempt to find parking in that area or going past that place? MS NARKEDIEN No, the first time we went past, I actually didn't notice any parking. MR RICHARD And you wouldn't have noticed any other parking spots available anywhere else on the Marine Parade that evening? MS NARKEDIEN No I didn't bother, actually. MR RICHARD Fair enough. Now you parked the car and what were you told to do next? MS NARKEDIEN Well, when I parked the car he was still in the car with me and then he said to me "Wait here. Stay here, I'm coming back just now." Then he simply got out and disappeared. MR RICHARD And now you were left alone in the car, did you stay in the car? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I stayed in the car. MR RICHARD For how long were you alone in the car? MS NARKEDIEN It could have been ten, fifteen minutes. MR RICHARD Then after ten, fifteen minutes, what happened? MS NARKEDIEN Then Robert appeared with the Ford Cortina, I can't remember which of the two was driving, but I remember that he indicated with his finger sort of that I must come out, so I drove the Mazda out of there. Then I didn't quite know what to do next, so I just drove it back into the Marine Parade and I just stood there, but eventually I had to go because there were a lot of cars behind me and people were hooting for me, so I just drove the car into the next road and just waited there, because I didn't quite know what to do next. MR RICHARD Had you not been instructed where to go to next? MS NARKEDIEN No, he didn't instruct me at all. MR RICHARD So when you say you drove to the next road, which road was that? MS NARKEDIEN I don't know the name of it, but it's a very short lane, just on the other side of the hotel. MR RICHARD So you would have driven past the front of the Parade Hotel, past the next building and turned left. MS NARKEDIEN No there wasn't another building. We passed the front of the hotel. It was actually the end of the hotel. Maybe there was another, but it was one big compact building, if I can put it like that, so I just went into the very next, the first road actually. MR RICHARD Let's go through it again. You were driving from South to North on the left-hand side, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR RICHARD You came to a parking spot outside the Parade Hotel and were instructed to park the car, correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON I don't think we have to go through the whole... MR RICHARD After you had moved out of that parking spot, you carried on in a northerly direction and so that meant, whether it was one complex or two complexes, you drove away from the Parade Hotel and turned left at the next available left-hand turn? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. MR RICHARD Now did you know to stop and wait for them there? MS NARKEDIEN No, I didn't know what to do. I just had to get out of the traffic of Marine Parade. I didn't know how to contact him to say "I'm here". I didn't know what to do. MR RICHARD Then how long did you wait there? MS NARKEDIEN I would say about 5 minutes. MR RICHARD Could it have been ten minutes, or less than five minutes? MS NARKEDIEN I don't know. MR DEHAL Sorry Mr Chairperson, I don't know where this is taking us. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you estimating five minutes. MS NARKEDIEN I estimated five minutes. CHAIRPERSON I mean whether it's a bit longer or shorter, I don't think much swings on it. MR RICHARD Then what happened? MS NARKEDIEN Fortunately from where I was I could sort of see to the next road, you know along the pavement so to speak, so I was quite anxious to see whether they would see me or what would happen. Fortunately I could see them now walking along the front of the hotel, so and then they must have seen my car then eventually so then they came towards my car and got in and Robert said "Drive, we're going back home." MR RICHARD Now did you drive away or did Robert drive the car away? MS NARKEDIEN No, I was driving still. MR RICHARD Where did he tell you to drive to? MS NARKEDIEN At that point he said "Drive to Wentworth", so I drove out, I drove that way, back down the small lane and made my way into Argo Road, I wasn't so familiar with that area at that stage, but I know I managed to get to Argo Road which I was more familiar with and tried to get to Wentworth from there. MR RICHARD Now, what did you think was happening that evening, when they had told you to park the car and now substituted another car for the car that you were driving? Did you think anything? MS NARKEDIEN Well initially I thought perhaps we're just going to hand the car over to some comrades or something, but it did seem once we left House and Home that this is rather an elaborate way to hand over a car, but then we did do things at time which seemed silly, but because we wanted to shake of people who maybe are watching us, or following us, or because of the secrecy and covert nature of what we did, I then took it that you know this is like a routine, or a normal type of thing. I know to other people it would be down right stupid, but that's all I really thought at the time. MR RICHARD Now, when did you learn that a car bomb had been placed there? MS NARKEDIEN I only discovered the following morning actually, when I heard the news on the radio and then later on in the day when my sisters brought the newspaper and I read the newspaper that an explosion took place directly outside that hotel, more or less in the place where we had parked that car, so I concluded that what we actually did there was not just park an ordinary car for others who needed it, other comrades who needed it, it was in actual fact a car bomb. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Prior, any questions? ADV PRIOR Just one or two aspects for clarity Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR Ms Narkedien, on that evening, the vehicle that you were driving, was that your sister's car? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. ADV PRIOR And you had asked her to use it that evening? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. ADV PRIOR Did she normally lend, or did you normally or usually ask her for the loan of her vehicle, when you were going out with Mr McBride? MS NARKEDIEN That's true, I normally did. We shared it, so to speak. ADV PRIOR Did Mr McBride indicate that you were going anywhere specific on that evening, that you had to get dressed up, or...? MS NARKEDIEN You see at the time I was actually a fugitive because there was this state of emergency and my brother Eric and my sister Jeanette were arrested. Actually it was my mother who gave me, who asked her to let me use the car, and my parents told me that I was also wanted. When the police came to arrest them, they walked into the house with all these big rifles demanding where am I and they said they didn't know. I was actually in Botswana, I had gone away for the weekend. ADV PRIOR Yes. Sorry, if I may just stop you there. You learned when you returned with Mr McBride on the 12th of June. MS NARKEDIEN No the morning of the 13th actually. ADV PRIOR The morning of the 13th, that the police had been there, they had arrested certain members of your family and were looking for you. MS NARKEDIEN Yes, so I realised I had to go into hiding immediately, so I was in hiding at the time when he came to ask me that evening, "You know I don't think it's good for you to stay indoors for so long, you need to go out. I want to take you to the drive-in." I was actually afraid, I didn't want to expose myself to the police and be arrested. ADV PRIOR So he told you you were going to the drive-in. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. ADV PRIOR Had you gone to the drive-in with him before? MS NARKEDIEN We'd gone to bioscope a lot, that was the first time we would go to the drive-in. ADV PRIOR Alright. Just from that aspect, when you returned from Botswana and apparently that's when you learned there was a state of emergency, that your family had been treated quite shabbily by the Security Forces, almost in an inhumane way, what was Mr McBride's reaction to that? Was he calm? Was he angry at what had happened? MS NARKEDIEN No, I think he was actually quite calm because, in fact I was the one that was extremely anxious and all I said, I was in control of the situation, I was the one that said I want to go into hiding. I don't want to be arrested. ADV PRIOR Alright and by that stage, although you had not been given specific information, you had basically put two and two together and realised that every time Mr McBride and the other members went out, usually the next day or that evening, you heard about an explosion or substations were knocked out, something to that effect. Had you concluded then that what he was busy with was with sabotage and similar acts? MS NARKEDIEN No, that was actually the first time that I was involved with him on that particular evening and then discovered the following day that an explosion took place. In all the others I was not involved with him. ADV PRIOR So was that the first time that you realised that he was possibly involved in causing explosions? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, that was the first one because although I was charged with the Chamberlain one, when I picked them up after they had done something there, I didn't know that. I picked him up from his father's workshop and even though I discovered later in the evening that there was an explosion there, the lights had gone out, I didn't know that, I didn't even suspect that he and the others did it. I discovered it much later. ADV PRIOR Had you seen the Chamberlain Road, the second explosion that occurred there? MS NARKEDIEN No, I didn't see it. In fact I was slightly out of town at the time because I had to drive Robert and some of the others, Welile into town to take a taxi, so when we came back in, I saw the township was in darkness. ADV PRIOR I just want to deal with one last aspect. You drove onto the Marine Parade, you went to near the Parade Hotel, then you returned back to Pine Street, where the Cortina was, is that correct? MS NARKEDIEN You mean the first time we went to the ...(intervention) MS NARKEDIEN Yes, you went in the direction or past the Parade Hotel and went back to the Pine. MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I don't know at what point did we turn around and come back. ADV PRIOR Because from that you went back to Pine street and then...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON My understanding was and correct me if I'm wrong please, Ms Narkedien, was when they first drove on the Marine Parade, there were three of you in the vehicle and the Cortina was somewhere else other than Pine Street and then you went back to where the Cortina was and then you drove it from there to Pine Street, left Matthew and then you and Mr McBride went and parked the vehicle, as described by yourself. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON I think that was the ... ADV PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman, I was a bit confused. On that occasion it seems that you, or at least Mr McBride was driving past and having a look at the place. Was anything discussed that you can remember? MS NARKEDIEN No, there was no talking in the car. ADV PRIOR Whether you were going to be coming back to that spot or not? MS NARKEDIEN No, not at all. ADV PRIOR I just get the impression, when you returned there, in other words when you came out of the parking space and you were simply, there was an indication from Mr McBride that you should move out of that parking spot on the corner, that you really didn't know where to go. MS NARKEDIEN Yes. I hadn't further instructions, so I didn't quite know what to do next. CHAIRPERSON If no traffic came, would you have just stayed there in Marine Parade? MS NARKEDIEN I would have stayed there, exactly, I would have stayed just there, where I came out. ADV PRIOR When you learned the next day about the explosion and the blast outside the hotel, did you ever discuss that with Mr McBride? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I did, I had to try and send a message to him that he had to meet with me at another place and explain to me you know, what's really going on and I wanted to get out of Durban. I just wanted to have no association with what had happened and I realised also that he also, well I didn't quite know what he was feeling, but he also then suddenly wanted to get out, so I said, "Well fine, you can come with me, but I'm going." For me it was very disorientating. ADV PRIOR Yes, what I'm actually asking, was he still calm, was he agitated, was he depressed, did he express any remorse to you, anything like that? Did he express any ... MS NARKEDIEN Well this is the part I don't really like because Robert is the big macho, bravado man, but yes he was extremely remorseful and very depressed for a very long time. ADV PRIOR I understand that from there you went to Johannesburg, is that correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. ADV PRIOR There's just two more aspects. Thank you Mr Chairman. The Klein family, we've heard evidence about Mr and Mrs Klein, did you know Mr and/or Mrs Klein? MS NARKEDIEN I didn't know Mrs Klein so well, but Mr Klein, yes I knew him very well. ADV PRIOR And you heard evidence, I'm not going to rehash from you, he was a former principal etc, member of the Labour Party and a sometime police reservist? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, he was all those things and I knew he carried a weapon like all the others. ADV PRIOR Did you know whether they had children, or not? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, I think all the children were married actually, they were married and living elsewhere. ADV PRIOR You did say you did know Mrs Klein as such, but did you know whether she was actively involved in politics at the time, Labour Party or anything like that? MS NARKEDIEN I think she was involved in the Labour Party, but maybe not the way Mr Klein was in the terrorising the township, so to speak. ADV PRIOR Did you say he used to terrorise the township? MS NARKEDIEN It was a group of them. JUDGE PILLAY What did they do? MS NARKEDIEN I know they terrorised my brother actually, Eric, because he was also a political activist. They, I don't know where they picked him up from and took him to the police station and arrested him and swore him and so on. I know of my cousin who also spoke of another incident where, I don't know what they were looking for these two youngsters for, whether they had dagga on them or whatever and they actually came bursting into her house. My cousin is actually sitting in the audience now and they actually threatened to shoot her unless she released him and she had to really reason with Mr Klein, Mr Moosa and some other people. I think we even called them sergeants. We referred to them as sergeants or constables, because they had that status of police reservists. ADV PRIOR Just to follow, nothing really turns on it, was any action taken against these people, for example, were they ever reported or did you think that would serve no purpose? MS NARKEDIEN Those days nobody reported the police if they arrest you, you just suffered it out. ADV PRIOR These trips to Botswana and particularly the return, we heard evidence that on those occasions that you returned to the Republic, normally material, explosives, ammunition, weapons were brought in. You passed through formal border posts, is that correct? MS NARKEDIEN Yes, we were always searched and they never ever found anything, with sniffer dogs and everything. ADV PRIOR That was my question. It just struck me during the evidence that there was never an occasion where there was even the slightest suspicion. MS NARKEDIEN So that's why it was hard for me to think that there is something here, when nobody finds it. ADV PRIOR It wasn't a question that the customs or whoever had to be bribed to turn ...(intervention) MS NARKEDIEN Well, they were never bribed in my presence, I don't know. ADV PRIOR Alright. There's just one last aspect. We do have regard to your treatment during your detention, are you aware from the - sorry before I go there, did you appear before the Committee on Human Rights Violations of the Commission? MS NARKEDIEN Yes. ADV PRIOR Are you aware whether anyone has applied for amnesty for your, for the way in which you were treated in detention? MS NARKEDIEN No. ADV PRIOR And I'm referring specifically to any member of the Security Branch? MS NARKEDIEN No, I'm not aware. ADV PRIOR And likewise for your sister's treatment? MS NARKEDIEN No, I'm not aware. ADV PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Prior. Mr Dehal, do you have any re-examination? MR DEHAL Thank you. I have none. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you would like to ask? ADV SIGODI No thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thanks. Judge Pillay, any question? Thank you Ms Narkedien, that concludes your testimony. MS NARKEDIEN Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, I know we've not sat the full day today. However, I think we've made quite good progress. I see it's almost quarter to four. We do have another three applicants left. It's my assessment that we would comfortably finish within the time allocated at least by Monday. What I'm saying is, is there any purpose of starting a witness now and obviously not finishing? CHAIRPERSON I don't know. Who is the intended next witness, Mr Dehal? MR DEHAL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. We proposed calling Mr Pearce next. I don't know, I've lost touch whether Ms Kooverjee represents him, or I, but it doesn't really matter. His statement needs to be amended. CHAIRPERSON Yes, no I'm just asking you whether, what's your attitude, do you want to start now or would you prefer to start tomorrow morning? MR DEHAL I'd much rather tomorrow morning, if you don't mind. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, would half past nine be convenient? Thank you. We'll now adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning, the same venue. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS