amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-08 DURBAN 9 EDWARD ALLAN PEARCE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53744&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271013_dbn_991008db.htm CHAIRPERSON Morning everybody. Yesterday when we adjourned, Mr Dehal indicated that Mr Pearce would be testifying today. MR DEHAL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, this morning we had time, and I'm indebted to you for that time, endeavours were made by Mr McBride to meet, I think with Ms Welgemoed. Mr Richard has been talking with them with a view to facilitating that. I don't think that has happened as yet. Perhaps we can take it up later. We thought it prudent to begin first. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR DEHAL Ms Kooverjee is going to lead Mr Pearce and after him out other client, Mr Andrews, and then I would address you, Mr Chairperson, on the future witnesses. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EDWARD ALLAN PEARCE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Kooverjee? MS KOOVERJEE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I have prepared statements of Mr Allan Pearce. May I have leave to hand them in? CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, that will be Exhibit Q. MR DEHAL Correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. EXAMINATION BY MS KOOVERJEE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Pearce, is it correct that you have brought about an application for amnesty? MR PEARCE Yes, it is. MS KOOVERJEE I refer you to bundle A1, on page 187 to 189. Is that your application for amnesty? MR PEARCE Yes, it is. MS KOOVERJEE Okay. Will you please explain to this Committee, was this application completed by yourself? MR PEARCE Yes, it was. MS KOOVERJEE Were you assisted in any way? MR PEARCE No. MS KOOVERJEE Okay. I refer you now to your statement. Will you please read from Annexure Q on your general background. CHAIRPERSON Mr Pearce, if you can just bear in mind that the interpreters will be translating simultaneously when you're reading, so if you can just read slow enough for them to keep up with you. Do they have a copy of the statement? Thank you. MS KOOVERJEE Sorry, Mr Chairperson. MR PEARCE "I am presently employed as a security officer for the African National Congress and still a member of the ANC. I have been convicted of all the acts/operations that I seek amnesty on and have served an effective sentence of three years, six months. During the course of operations I acted as a combatant with comrade Robert McBride. Robert and I grew up together in the Wentworth area and we got to know each other well. As we grew up we became increasingly politicised. Our people in Wentworth and generally in South Africa were suffering. There was either no education or very poor education, jobs were scarce. Many of the comrades in my area who suffered as I did, shared the same political perception and we generally met in Ogal Road on numerous occasions and held discussions about our plight." MS KOOVERJEE Sorry, Mr Pearce, is Ogal Road in Wentworth? MR PEARCE Yes, it is in Wentworth. MS KOOVERJEE Please go on. MR PEARCE "Some of those who attended these meetings were Matthew Lecordier and Antonio du Preez, Naziem Kassiem and Marson Sharpley. Robert also attended these discussions and supplied us with political material, which I read." CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Pearce, just before you proceed. During what period would this be, more-or-less? MR PEARCE 1985. "In 1986, Robert invited me to join his unit and informed me that in the near future he will arrange for me to be trained outside the county as an MK cadre. In our various discussions we discussed the various ways and means that we could use to get back at the then government for the way they were oppressing us and our people. One such idea was to burn down schools in Wentworth, so that bigger and better schools could be built. I was frustrated at the inequalities in this country and the impoverished state we were in." JUDGE PILLAY Mr Pearce, were you trained as a cadre eventually? MR PEARCE No, Sir. MS KOOVERJEE Mr Pearce, you now go onto the arson attack at Fairvale Secondary School, which is referred to in bundle A1, page 6, item 4, being an incident which occurred on the 3rd of September 1985. Is that correct? MR PEARCE That's correct. MS KOOVERJEE Okay, will you please read on. MR PEARCE "The attack on Fairvale Secondary School was an idea that Robert up, with which we agreed. Matthew Lecordier and I were doing night school at the time at the same Fairvale School. The school was falling apart. This was a prefab building. Robert and another comrade, whose name I cannot recall, earlier left petrol on the school premises. That evening Robert, Matthew Lecordier, Naziem and Marson Sharpley and I got together and went to the school to carry out the operation. Whilst Matthew, Marson Sharpley and I kept guard, Robert and Naziem broke the window of the school with a view to entering the classroom. I'm not too sure who entered. After the petrol was spilled we left Naziem who was to have lit the match and to have thrown it into the classroom to set it alight. He was chosen as he was the fastest and the fittest and could run away easily. The next day I learnt that the school had suffered damages arising from the arson, but they were superficial burns only." MS KOOVERJEE Mr Pearce, you now go on to the attack on the industrial water supply pipe in New Germany. That is referred to in bundle A1 on page 10, item 21. Do you confirm that? MR PEARCE Yes, I do. MS KOOVERJEE Okay, please go on. MR PEARCE "Robert and Matthew Lecordier advised me that they would pick me up at 1 o'clock in the morning as there was something we needed to do. They picked me up and drove me to New Germany. We operated on a strictly need-to-know basis. This was discipline explained to me by Robert and we had to strictly adhere to this. The reconnaissance of the area was first carried out and the route was checked out and it was established that there were no roadblocks. We then returned to Wentworth, where Robert picked up two limpet mines. The arranged plan was that Robert would stop on the freeway, whilst Matthew and I would get out and climb up the bank. Matthew and I carried a limpet mine each, given to us by Robert. It was arranged that Robert would go to the next turnoff and return to the other side of the freeway. Matthew and I got out and went to the pipes. We had some difficulties with the pipes and Matthew suggested that we place the limpet mines on the valves itself. We did so. We pulled the pins and left and returned down the bank, where Robert met us and we left. The next day I learnt that the limpet mines had exploded. There were no persons injured or killed in this operation." MS KOOVERJEE Mr Pearce, is it correct that you were charged with illegal possession of arms and ammunition? MR PEARCE That's correct. MS KOOVERJEE And you were sentenced for this. MR PEARCE Yes, I was. MS KOOVERJEE Okay, will you please explain this. MR PEARCE "If I can correctly recall it was shortly after June 1986, that Matthew gave me two limpet mines and one handgrenade and requested that I should keep it safely. He said he would later discuss with me as to what I was to do with it. I was subsequently arrested during 1986. The handgrenade and limpet mines were buried behind a shopping centre. These were all later discovered by the Security Police and taken away by them." MS KOOVERJEE Thank you. Mr Pearce, there was some suggestion made about, at the time when the book "Until Babylon Falls" was discussed, that you were a member of the Vultures Gang. Can you please explain that? CHAIRPERSON A member of? I didn't catch the ... MS KOOVERJEE The Vultures Gang. CHAIRPERSON The Vultures Gang. MS KOOVERJEE That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR PEARCE I was never a member of the Woodstock Vulture Gang. I lived in that area and the reason why I left was because there was a lot of violence there. And as far as the statement in this book, I never met this author, I never read the book. So I don't know how he got this information. CHAIRPERSON Mr Pearce, you said the Woodstock Vultures Gang, is that Woodstock down in Cape Town? MR PEARCE No, in Wentworth. CHAIRPERSON Oh, Woodstock in Wentworth. MR PEARCE Wentworth, yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MS KOOVERJEE Mr Pearce, during the course of your operations, was anybody injured? MR PEARCE No. MS KOOVERJEE Thank you, Sir, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KOOVERJEE CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Pearce, just before I ask people if they want to cross-examine you, illegal possession of arms and ammunition you're applying, from the statement it would appear that you're applying in respect of those limpet mines which Mr McBride left to you some time in June 1986. When you were convicted of for instance, this pipeline incident, were you also convicted of being in unlawful possession of limpet mines? MR PEARCE All acts ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So you apply - you don't restrict your application for illegal possession of weapons, to ...(intervention) MR PEARCE I was convicted and sentenced for the act. CHAIRPERSON For the act and also for being in possession of limpet mines. MR PEARCE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you're applying for that, yes. Thank you. Mr Berger, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Pearce? MR BERGER Just one, Chairperson. Mr Pearce, you said that you didn't receive any training outside South Africa as an MK cadre, but would it be correct to say that you did receive training inside South Africa as an MK cadre? MR PEARCE Yes, I did. MR BERGER And from whom did you receive that training? MR PEARCE From Matthew Lecordier. MR BERGER Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Did that include how to use a limpet mine? MR PEARCE A limpet mine and handgrenades, yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dehal, do you have any questions that you'd like to put to the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL Not so much a question, but simply to clarify the following point. Mr Pearce, the Woodstock Vultures is a gang - sorry, is a gang that is reputed to be in Wentworth and operates from Wentworth and has the name Woodstock Vultures. MR PEARCE Yes. MR DEHAL And what you've said is you've never had anything to do with it. MR PEARCE No. MR DEHAL Inasmuch as you've said you had not met the author, I think his name is Mr Brain Rostrin of the book "Till Babylon Falls", had you ever been interviewed by any other person indirectly for the purposes of that book? MR PEARCE Not at all. MR DEHAL Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Dehal. Mr Richard, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Pearce? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD A number. You say you received, that you met and discussed various matters with various people, and in paragraph 3 you say - "Some of those who attended these meetings were Matthew Lecordier, Antonio du Preez, Naziem Kassiem and M Sharpley." Now when did these discussions take place? MR PEARCE In-between the period of 1986/1986. MR RICHARD So did they continue until about June '86? MR PEARCE Could be, I'm not too sure. MR RICHARD Now do you recall discussion at those meetings about the plan to plant a bomb at a hotel or pub in central Durban? MR PEARCE Not at all. MR RICHARD Did you recall the idea being debated that handgrenades should be thrown at targets? I'm not interested in what sort of targets yet. MR PEARCE No, not at all. MR RICHARD So the question of throwing handgrenades at any police station, motor vehicle or individuals was never discussed, is that correct? MR PEARCE It could have been discussed, but there was no specific target. MR RICHARD The next question is, while you might have not discussed specific targets, was there any discussion as to what sort of targets handgrenades might be thrown at? MR PEARCE At Security personnel and collaborators. MR RICHARD And what were collaborators within the context of those discussions? MR PEARCE People who worked closely with the Security Force and also people who were members of the Labour Party. MR RICHARD When you say "closely with the Security Forces", what does the word "closely" mean to you? MR PEARCE They could be reservists. MR RICHARD Now training. You say Mr Lecordier trained you. MR PEARCE Yes, he did. MR RICHARD What training did he give you, what did he teach you to do? MR PEARCE He first taught me how a handgrenade works, how to detonate it, after pulling the pin, how long it would take before the handgrenade would explode when you let got the device on it, a handle and he also taught me about limpet mines, how to put a detonator into it, how to put a timer into it. MR RICHARD Who else was trained with you? MR PEARCE It was just me and Matthew, Matthew and myself. MR RICHARD Did he give you any training as to what casualties were permissible or not permissible? MR PEARCE It could have been discussed, but I'm not too sure. MR RICHARD When you say joined, do you mean that you were recruited into the group known as Special Operations? MR PEARCE No, we were a group that stayed together, we didn't go, we only took instructions. MR RICHARD Apart from the Fairvale School operation where, from what I gather, it was a group discussion and decision, did you ever conduct an attack on any target where it was simply you that chose the target? MR PEARCE No. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Richard. Mr Prior, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR One question. Did you ever receive any training from Mr McBride, whether military or political? MR PEARCE Political, yes. We had discussions and he did give me political material. ADV PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Prior. Ms Kooverjee, do you have any re-examination? MS KOOVERJEE None, thank you, Sir. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS KOOVERJEE CHAIRPERSON Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr Pearce? ADV SIGODI None, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Judge Pillay? Thank you, Mr Pearce, that concludes your testimony. MR DEHAL Sorry, Mr Chairperson, Mr McBride has asked me to clarify an aspect. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR DEHAL Could I just confer with Mr McBride quickly? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. Sorry, while you're conferring, if I could just as a question. You say that you were recruited. Prior to that were you a member of the ANC or just a supporter, or what was your political standpoint? MR PEARCE I used to attend UDM meetings, UDF meetings, the United Democratic Front Meetings and I used to help in the Wentworth youth projects. There were student bodies there and we would made T-shirts, I would help them. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL May I proceed, Mr Chairperson. Thank you. Mr Pearce, just to clarify. Mr McBride sitting on my right has indicated to me that you referred to the period '86 to '86, could you be mistaken? It was in fact as I understand it, 1984 to 1986. MR PEARCE Could be, yes, I must have made a mistake there. MR DEHAL Thank you. And secondly, in the command structure that you belonged to, between Mr Lecordier, yourself and perhaps other persons, I think you referred to yourself as having been the Commander of that unit - sorry, bear with me ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He said that they were group, would stay together and he basically acted on instructions. MR DEHAL I'm sorry, Mr Chairperson, I misunderstood that, perhaps I'll rephrase that question. Mr Pearce, in regard to the taking of decisions, when you were cross-examined by Mr Richard you talked about individuals taking the decision, is it not correct that you jointly, with Matthew Lecordier and others who featured in that unit, made joint decisions after joint discussions? MR PEARCE Yes, we did. MR DEHAL Thank you, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL CHAIRPERSON Yes, sorry, Judge Pillay has indicated that he wished to put a question. JUDGE PILLAY Mr Pearce, what's your date of birth? MR PEARCE The 1st of January 1961. JUDGE PILLAY And what's your educational qualifications? MR PEARCE At the stage when we burnt the school I was doing night school, standard eight. JUDGE PILLAY At that school? MR PEARCE At the same school, yes. JUDGE PILLAY And did you attend the same school when you were attending normal school? MR PEARCE Yes, Sir. JUDGE PILLAY Were you part of the student politics while you were at school? MR PEARCE No, not while I was at school. JUDGE PILLAY Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any questions arising? MR DEHAL None from me, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Pearce, that then concludes your testimony. MR PEARCE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED