amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-11 DURBAN 10 MATTHEW LECORDIER AM4026/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53746&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9909271013_dbn_991011db.htm CHAIRPERSON Morning everybody. When we adjourned on Friday, it was indicated by Mr Dehal that Mr Lecordier would be giving evidence this morning. Also just, Ms Kooverjee has been excused for a short while, but she will be joining us later. Mr Lecordier, do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation? MATTHEW LECORDIER (affirms) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Dehal? MR DEHAL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Perhaps before we begin, may I just hand these statements out, which are Mr Lecordier's drafts. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. That will be Exhibit S. EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL Mr Lecordier, you have a copy of your application for amnesty before you, the application which is contained in bundle A1 and marked pages 195 to 201. Do you see that? These pages. MR LECORDIER Yes, I have that. MR DEHAL Do you confirm that that firstly is your application? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do. MR DEHAL Were you aided in the completion of this application? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL Who assisted you? MR LECORDIER Mrs Paula McBride. MR DEHAL You see contained in your application, apart from the list of the acts for which you seek amnesty and a list of victims, your political motive. Do you see that? You have that on page 197 and it continues on page 199 as your political objective that you sought to achieve. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Do you confirm that as correct? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do. MR DEHAL And on page 199 continuing onto page 200, in paragraph 10(b) continuing to 11(a), (b), (c), you have your justification for regarding such acts, omissions and offences as having a political objective. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL You confirm that is correct? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do. MR DEHAL Thank you. Mr Lecordier, before we begin with your general statement, is it correct that you were for the main, in regard to the various acts for which you seek amnesty, a member of the McBride unit? MR LECORDIER That's right, yes. MR DEHAL That was an MK unit, was it? MR LECORDIER Yes, it was. MR DEHAL And you worked closely with Mr Robert McBride. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Greta Apelgren, Derek McBride, Allan Pearce and Marcel Andrews, Sharpley are all known to you. MR LECORDIER Yes, they are. MR DEHAL Is it correct that you all lived in the Wentworth area? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Lecordier, I haven't asked this of anybody before, but I was just wondering, did the unit its own name at all or not? Because I've heard that some units carried a name. MR LECORDIER At first, Mr Chairman, we were known as the Fairvale Unit. That was before I joined MK. MR DEHAL And when you joined MK, at the Robert McBride cell, did that have any name? MR LECORDIER The way Robert - I remember Robert explained to me it was Special Operations. MR DEHAL Now arising from all these acts you came to be arrested by the Security Police. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL In the main, two trials ensued, amongst a few minor trials. The two main trials were that of State vs Robert John McBride and Greta Apelgren, now known as Ms Narkedien. MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. MR DEHAL Parallel to that was the trial of State vs Derek McBride and Antonio du Preez. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL With somewhat the same counts in each of those two. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL You were a State witness in those trials, correct? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL Then there were some smaller trials, like State vs Allan Pearce and Marcel Andrews and Others. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL You were not a State witness in any of those, correct? MR LECORDIER Against Allan Pearce, yes I was. MR DEHAL You were. I see. And against Marcel Andrews? MR LECORDIER No. MR DEHAL Now your being a State witness, was that of your own choice? MR LECORDIER No, it was not. MR DEHAL You deal with that in your statement, and we will read that shortly. Before we again - sorry, finally, before we deal with your statement, is it correct that you have now reconciled with Robert McBride and all these other gentlemen that I've spoken of? MR LECORDIER Yes, I have. MR DEHAL And the Wentworth community have largely embraced you and taken you back. MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. MR DEHAL Now I take you, Mr Lecordier, to your statement. You begin in paragraph 1 - perhaps I'll give you this copy, there were some typographical errors in yours. You begin in paragraph 1, dealing with the background political education. Do you mind reading that into the record. MR LECORDIER "I was brought up in Wentworth. Antonio du Preez, Allan Pearce, Robert McBride, Greta Apelgren, Marson Sharpley, lived in Wentworth at the time." MR DEHAL Sorry, Mr Lecordier, do you mind speaking slower, there are interpreters interpreting this. MR LECORDIER Okay. "There came a time when we were all concerned about the inequalities in the country and the impoverished state that we lived in, in Wentworth. The poor education and the tyranny at the hands of the legal gangsters, the police and Labour Party members, in whom the people had no faith. During or about 1985, I was employed with a place of safety in Wentworth, as a child care officer. Here I dealt with orphans, children with conditions of severe neglect and abandoned children. I also had the sad experience of observing the abuse of children by the staff members, that is other child care officers. When I raised this issue at staff meetings, I was told to simply follow orders and to listen and obey the authorities and not raise such issues. When this continued I refused to accept it and I was told that since I refused I could leave this, and this I did. This created feelings of awareness and sensitivity in me towards the suffering of children in Wentworth and the abuse of authority. I was not recruited at the time into MK, or into the Wentworth Unit. I used to often visit the Allan Taylor residence, listen to Radio Freedom and read the voice of the ANC in exile, Setchaba. I listened to discussions, particularly at the Allan Taylor residence by the students, all of which were in the main political discussions. During 1984 and 1985, I was also part of a group which included comrade Robert McBride and Marson Sharpley and others as well. We would together hold regular political meetings at Allan Pearce's home. This group later developed into what became known as the Fairvale Unit. These developments took place as a result of our continued political education, aided by our listening to Radio Freedom, reading the Setchabas and attending meetings at the Allan Taylor residence. The ANC literature, amongst other things, called on the patriots of the country to form units and attack targets, in particular government buildings, policemen and informers and other collaborators. We formed this unit and it is this unit that carried out the Fairvale Secondary School arson attack. During this period also, one of the members of the group, Marson Sharpley, who was known to favour non-violence, at that stage was arrested by the Security Police and beaten up severely and held in detention without trial for several weeks. After his release we visited him at his home and there observed that he was so badly beaten up that his body which was light-skinned, was of a different colour as a result of the beatings on his person. We also noticed that Marcel's personality had markedly changed, in that he was now in favour of violence and behaved in a paranoid manner when he observed a police vehicle or one that resembled it. If he saw such a vehicle, and even if we were then in a middle of a discussion, he would immediately leave the discussion without notice to us and run for his life as though mad and fearful of this vehicle. These impressions formed a distinct impression on me and encouraged me in the belief that a peaceful resolution for the change in this country was not possible. On a wall in Antonio de Preez's home was a picture taken off from the newspapers, of an unknown black man being assaulted by an armed policeman. It was a big picture, which had a great effect on my mind." MR DEHAL Now Mr Lecordier, you then in your statement, deal with the various incidents. You begin with the Fairvale Secondary School arson attack. You've mentioned earlier that the Fairvale Secondary School arson attack was one that was carried out before you became a proper MK member, that means before you were recruited by McBride into MK. MR LECORDIER That's right, yes. MR DEHAL But that at the time Fairvale - sorry, at the time of the arson attack, there was a unit in existence in Wentworth, to which you belonged, correct? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL And that prior to this arson attack you had already been attending political meetings at the Allan Taylor residence. MR LECORDIER That's correct. MR DEHAL Listening to Radio Freedom, the voice of the ANC in exile and reading Setchabas. MR LECORDIER That's correct. MR DEHAL So you were politicised at the time? MR LECORDIER Yes, I was. MR DEHAL Will you then read what you have from (i) to (vi), under paragraph 2, dealing with Fairvale. MR LECORDIER Fairvale Secondary School Arson Attack. "This incident occurred on the third of September 1985. There were no injuries to any persons in this operation. The persons involved in this operation, within the unit, loosely set up Wentworth at time were Naziem Kassiem, Allan Pearce, Robert McBride and Marson Sharpley. At the time of this operation we were not formally recruited into the ANC/MK unit, but we understood the policy and the guidelines of the ANC, had been listening to Radio Freedom, reading Setchaba, the voice of the ANC, and actively engaged ourselves in repeated daily discussions about the need to change the situation. We understood that this could not be achieved by peaceful means. This was the first operation that I was involved in, and indeed the first that this combat unit carried out. The object of this operation was to highlight the inferior and dilapidated condition of the school. A complaint that had been tirelessly take up till then. We hoped that this long-standing issue would now be addressed. My own activity in this operation was that I, together with Allan Pearce and Marson Sharpley, stood guard at the school whilst comrade Robert and Naziem Kassiem went to the laboratory area of the school, with a view to breaking the windows and pouring petrol into the school. It was agreed that Naziem Kassiem would light a match and throw it into the school, as he was the fittest at the time. The school was set alight, however the damage was at a very superficial level." MR DEHAL Now Naziem Kassiem was chosen you say, because he was the fittest, obviously because he could then retreat successfully. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL You then deal with the supply of weapons to yourself in Botswana. The reason you deal with this count is that in bundle A1, at page 7, item 5, you are cited as an applicant under this heading as an incident, one of which Mr McBride is an applicant and seeks amnesty for. Do you recall? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do recall. MR DEHAL This however, is not an incident that you seek amnesty for, correct? MR LECORDIER That's correct. MR DEHAL Okay. Will you read paragraph 1 and 2 in that regard. MR LECORDIER "Inasmuch as I did not specifically apply for amnesty in regard to this count, I notice at the bundle A1, on page 7, as per item 5, records that I am an applicant in this regard. I have never been to Botswana, I have never been supplied with weapons either in Botswana or in any other country. I have never accompanied comrade McBride to Botswana." MR DEHAL But any weapons supplied to you would have been within the ambit of your MK unit, by Robert McBride or somebody, on his instructions, correct? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL You then deal with an incident, an operation that you sought amnesty for and that's the handgrenade attack on the house of Peter Klein. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL You remember that? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do. MR DEHAL You recall that I took you through bundle A1, on page 9, item 15. You will see that this incident has a date as the 5th May 1986. You say you don't agree with that, it's actually the 1st May 1996, correct? MR LECORDIER That's correct. MR DEHAL You've conferred with McBride and others to confirm the correctness of the date 1st May as correct. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL And you recall that in the date sequence this grenade attack on Klein was prior to the Edendale operation, correct? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL So item 14 on page 8, bundle A1, which has the Edendale operation, should actually be after this Klein incident, correct? MR LECORDIER That's right, yes. MR DEHAL Okay. Now will you then please read (i) to (vii) of paragraph 4 into the record. MR LECORDIER The handgrenade attack on the house of Mr Klein, 1st of May 1986. "Shortly after comrade McBride had recruited me and trained me in the use of arms and educated me politically, he instructed me to carry out certain operations against collaborators and Security Force personnel. Comrade McBride had discussed with me a number of targets, including attacks on an armed personnel carrier, police casspir and the attach on policemen, the attack on Labour Party collaborators and the attack on police reservists. I selected Klein as the target. I knew that Klein was a police reservist and closely associated with the Labour Party. At that stage police reservists were viewed as collaborators and Klein was known to be an influential member of the Labour Party. I confirm Mr McBride's testimony in regard to Mr Klein and confirm that this was also my view at the time. One of the reasons I chose Klein as a target is that logistically I would not need to arrange transport to carry out this operation. Additionally I was aware of the room in the Klein's house, which was his bedroom. I went to the house with Antonio du Preez, in the early hours of the morning. As instructed by comrade McBride, I threw the handgrenade through the window. I had one handgrenade and Antonio du Preez had another. Mr du Preez' handgrenade did not enter the house. The handgrenade that I threw exploded within the house and that which Antonio du Preez threw, exploded on the outside of the house. I accept that there was injury to both Mr and Mrs Klein. Mr McBride had not participated in this operation. I am also aware that Mrs Klein featured prominently within Labour circles, in support of her husband who was a Labour Party member. Even if Mrs Klein was not closely and actively involved in the Labour Party, I would still have gone on with this operation, in view of Mr Klein as a legitimate target. In that case, Mrs Klein, being caught in the crossfire, would have been an acceptable justifiable casualty." MR DEHAL Now you say that before you carried out this operation you had information, presumably from your intelligence, as to which room in the house of the Klein's was his bedroom. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL And is that the room that you threw the handgrenade into, through the window? MR LECORDIER That's right, yes. MR DEHAL Did you know whether Mr Klein had any children? MR LECORDIER Yes, I did. MR DEHAL Would they have been about the same age as you? MR LECORDIER No. MR DEHAL We heard the other day about Marson Sharpley, who was friendly with Klein's son. MR LECORDIER I think that's Marcel Andrews. Thank you. MR LECORDIER Yes, we heard that here. MR DEHAL Do you know that son? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON You say that you knew that the Kleins had children and that they, you said they weren't the same age as you. How many children did they have and what was their approximate ages at the time of the incident on the 1st of May, do you know? MR LECORDIER Mr Chairman, I don't know their ages, but the one, his daughter is much older than me and she wasn't living at home at the time and his son who's younger than me, was living at home at the time. CHAIRPERSON And that son was the one referred to by Marcel Andrews. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Did you have information that these children occupied a separate bedroom? MR LECORDIER Yes, I did have that info. MR DEHAL Thank you. You then deal with the Edendale Hospital operation, where Gordon Webster was removed, and that you say occurred on the 4th of May 1986. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL You seek amnesty for this operation. And this is dealt with in bundle A1, page 8 on item 14, correct? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Will you please read the entire two pages dealing with Edendale Hospital. MR LECORDIER "Sometime towards the end of April 1986, Antonio du Preez and I were training in the use of AK47s. Comrade McBride had so trained us. He advised us that we will shortly be embarking on an operation in which we may be asked to use these weapons. Shortly before the 4th of May, on a date I'm not too sure of, comrade Robert informed me he would shortly be calling upon me to make myself available for an operation. As mentioned, we operated strictly on the need-to-know discipline and all I advised him of was that I would be available within the next few days and did not ask any questions about the operation. If I recall correctly, at about 4.30pm on the 4th of May 1986, comrade McBride called me to his father's workshop, where other comrades were present and we received a briefing on the Edendale operation. A map was used to advise us each of our respective task, duties, in this operation. We then left in two separate vehicles to the Edendale Hospital. I travelled with comrade McBride and others. We travelled in a blue van. When we got to Pietermaritzburg we had to wait until visiting hours were over. And since we had enough time a reconnaissance was carried out on this operation. Comrade Robert drove onto a dirt road to a fence outside the hospital and again explained to me my role. We also went to a takeaway where we had coffee and tea. When we later got to Edendale Hospital to carry out the operation, my task was to cut a hole in the fence and to remain at the vehicle with the bonnet open, to create the impression that it was broken down. So as not to draw any undue suspicion to it. Comrade Robert McBride and Derek McBride had entered the hospital premises and after a short while I heard gunshots. Shortly thereafter a person was brought, wheeled on a stretcher to the vehicle I was at. I later learnt that this person is Gordon Webster. He was introduced to me shortly after the operation as Steven Mkhize. Comrade Webster was then placed into the vehicle and we drove to meet Greta Apelgren. We did not meet her. I was to have handed over the firearms to a Welile Khumalo, alias Themba, for him to safely bury them. Comrade McBride then decided to drive to Wentworth, which we did. At Wentworth, comrade Webster was placed into the Factorama(?) premises. I assisted in looking after the ailing Webster. I removed my socks and placed it on Webster's legs, massaged his feet and generally kept him comfortable. Later comrade Robert took me to my home by car." MR DEHAL MR LECORDIER Yes, that's correct. MR DEHAL And this is dealt with in bundle A1, as item 17 on page 9. Now will you please read the next two pages into the record. Slowly please. MR LECORDIER He came and picked me up that night and drove me into town. Just before we got into the city centre, there was a bump on the highway. As we drove over the bump, Robert explained to me that there were explosives in the boot of the car. I did not think he was serious. We drove into town and we stopped outside Hyperama House and Home, in West Street. Robert then told me that we must get out of his car and go into Greta's car, which was parked nearby. I walked with Robert and got to Greta's car and she was instructed by Robert to drive. We then drove to the Marine Parade. There Robert instructed Greta to drive on the Marine Parade. How precisely we drove I cannot remember, which parts of the streets we drove on, I can't remember. I do know that we drove on the Marine Parade. She was then instructed to drive back to the vicinity of the Hyper House and Home, where our car was parked. This she did. When we got to our car (sorry, there's a typing error there) ..." CHAIRPERSON Where the word "her" appears on the last line of (3), we changed to "our" and then also the first line of (4), we change the word "her" to "our". Is that right? MR LECORDIER That's right, Mr Chairman. "When we got to out car at the Hyper House and Home, both Robert and I alighted from her car and entered our car. Robert and I then got into the blue Ford Cortina and drove and Robert told Greta to follow us. When we got to the bottom of Pine Street, in the vicinity of Point Road, Robert told me to wait there and handed me a firearm, which he cocked before giving to me. He instructed me that if any person were to come to this vehicle to search the vehicle, I am to shoot them. He also told me that I am to wait there and he would return within a short while to meet me. Comrade Robert then got into the vehicle with Greta Apelgren and they drove off. After a short while comrade Robert returned on foot to my vehicle, got into the vehicle and drove to the Marine Parade. We then drove to the Marine Parade where Greta Apelgren was parked in a space which was not a parking bay, closest to the Why Not bar. Details that I subsequently acquainted myself on. Comrade Robert signalled to Greta to come out of the space and as she did that, Robert parked the blue Ford Cortina in that space. This was the spot nearest to the Why Not bar. It was drizzling at the time and it was shortly after 9pm. The Marine Parade was not too busy at the time, as it was drizzling and getting late in the evening. Comrade Robert asked me to get the numberplate of the vehicle from the front and hand it to him, which I did. Robert instructed me to be vigilant and to watch around to see if we were being watched. He also instructed me to keep the firearm in readiness. Comrade Robert then showed me a pin. I may at this stage indicate that comrade Robert had trained us that whenever an explosive device is detonated, the pin removed is to be shown to the Commander before it is disposed of where convenient. The reasoning for this is firstly, that it is confirmation that the explosive device has been initiated and secondly, to prevent any abuse. The moment comrade Robert showed me the pin I knew immediately that this was a car bomb operation." MR DEHAL Sorry, Mr Chairperson, the word "defused" is to read initiated. Carry on, Mr Lecordier. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, if you could just explain that, Mr Lecordier. What do you mean "showed me a pin"? Showed you a pin that was lying on the seat, or what is the situation? MR LECORDIER Mr Chairman, he told me that I must look around to see if anybody is watching us and that's when he said he's going to pull the pin of the bomb itself. CHAIRPERSON Where was this? Was it in the boot of the vehicle, or ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER From what I recall it was - sorry, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Where was the pin when you saw it? MR LECORDIER In comrade Robert's hand. CHAIRPERSON Oh okay, so he just showed you a pin, you didn't know where he had pulled it from or whatever? MR LECORDIER No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you. MR DEHAL Sorry, Mr Lecordier, you say that it was a disciplinary rule that when a detonator is activated, the pin is to be shown to your Commander. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL And did you say there are basically two reasons, the one is to show that the detonator has been activated or initiated? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL And secondly, to prevent abuse. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Now in this case, when comrade Robert showed you a pin, did you understand that he had now activated an explosive? MR LECORDIER That's how I understood it. MR DEHAL And by the way he carried himself within the car, did you understand that the explosive was within the car? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL And you say then you now came to know that this was a car bomb operation. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Thank you. May I take you then to (ix), where you say "Comrade Robert and I then walked to where Greta was, got into the vehicle, later filled petrol and drove back to Wentworth." Do you see that? MR LECORDIER Yes. CHAIRPERSON That's paragraph 11, Mr Dehal. MR DEHAL Sorry. Thank you, that's paragraph 11. And then go to paragraph 12. MR LECORDIER "On the way we got to the top of Ridge Road where we stopped at a spot near the Ridge Road Police Station. And Robert said he wanted to establish which way the cops were going. He was concerned that we may have cordoned ourselves within the circle thrown around the town. Thereafter we drove on a roundabout route back to Wentworth. When we got to Wentworth, Robert drove me to my home, where he left me and he and Greta drove off. Greta was smartly dressed on that night." MR DEHAL Thank you. Then you deal with three operations, all of which took place on the same day/night, namely the 21st and 22nd of June. That's the Umlaas Mobile Oil pipeline explosion; The mini-limpet mine explosion at the vegetable oil tank and; The limpet mine explosion outside the Copper Shop. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL You were involved in all three these operations. MR LECORDIER Yes, I was. MR DEHAL And these operations all took place on the same day, following into that night. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Leading up to that night. Now may we start with - sorry, the sequence of these operations is as per Annexure A1 in bundle - sorry A1 on pages 9 and 10. Do you remember that? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do. MR DEHAL You're simply following that sequence, is it? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Shall we begin with the Umlaas Mobile Oil pipeline. You have one paragraph there. Sorry, before we deal with that. You seek amnesty for each of these applications, correct? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do. MR DEHAL Thank you. Now will you read that which you have under the Umlaas Mobile Oil pipeline. MR LECORDIER "There were three operations ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The word "exposition" should read "explosion". MR DEHAL I'm sorry. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Proceed, Mr Lecordier. MR LECORDIER "There were three operations on this night. The others were a mini-limpet mine explosion, the vegetable oil tanker storage facility in Chamberlain Road and the third one was the limpet mine explosion outside Copper Shop, Brickhill Road. All these three operations were done on the same day. There were no persons injured and none killed. Comrade Robert, Antonio du Preez and I carried out these three operations. Antonio drove. He dropped Robert and I and we pretended that we were going fishing. Comrade Robert and I went and placed the charges on the oil pipes. Two limpet mines. We walked off, Antonio came back and picked us up." MR DEHAL Thank you. Then you deal with the mini-limpet mine explosion at the vegetable oil tank at the corner of Lawley and Chamberlain Roads. You say the same method of operation was used here. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL And that this operation was the same as the one preceding, namely the Umlaas Mobile Oil pipeline explosion. MR LECORDIER Except that Robert got out of the car alone and placed the charge himself. MR DEHAL Thank you. I then take you to the limpet mine explosion outside the Copper Shop in Brickhill Road. This is an operation in which you featured by carrying out the explosion, by taking it to the police vehicle, correct? MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. MR DEHAL Will you please read (i) into the record. MR LECORDIER "This was an unsuccessful operation. The target was originally a police vehicle that was parked almost on a permanent basis at the bottom of Point Road. My task was to place the limpet mine in this vehicle and comrade Robert agreed to pick me up afterwards. On my way to the police vehicle, after being dropped off, I became scared because I was under the impression that I had been spotted by the police and I panicked and dropped the explosive device into a refuse bin. In fact it was daily noticed that the police would park the vehicle and move away from it, but on this particular day when I got to the police vehicle, I noticed they were still in it. In all three incidents carried out on the 21st and 22nd of June, there were no injuries and no-one was killed. The three operations were all intended to continue the sabotage campaign, disrupt the oil supplies as in the first one, the economic sabotage and armed propaganda. This, as per the instructions and policy of Robert McBride and the ANC, as he had told us." MR DEHAL Mr Lecordier, in this Copper Shop operation, you say that the police parked their vehicle there daily and your intelligence showed that they would leave their vehicle and move away from it and you intended to place this explosive device beneath their vehicle. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL But on this particular day you saw they were still in their vehicle, and is it they that you were worried about, as having spotted you? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL And you say then that you took this explosive device and placed it in a refuse bin? MR LECORDIER That's right, yes. MR DEHAL Is that the one closest to the Copper Shop? MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. MR DEHAL And is it as a result of this explosion that the Copper Shop sustained substantial damages? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Lecordier, just as a matter of interest, what is a Copper Shop? MR LECORDIER It was a curio shop, Mr Chairman, they sell a lot of ornaments made from copper. CHAIRPERSON Okay. And when you placed that mine in the refuse bin, was there traffic, pedestrian traffic on the pavement? What was the situation? MR LECORDIER There were a few pedestrians walking around at that time. CHAIRPERSON Could you give an estimate of the time of night that this took place? MR LECORDIER No, Your Worship, I don't want to go into that, I'm not sure of the time there. JUDGE PILLAY Well was it night-time or daytime? MR LECORDIER It was at night. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. MR DEHAL But Mr Lecordier, you say that there were no injuries in this operation and no persons killed, is it? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL And this is in Point Road - sorry, this Copper Shop was in Point Road, at the corner of Point Road and the projection of West Street leading up to the Marine Parade? MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right, in that vicinity. MR DEHAL Not too far off from the Why Not area? MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. MR DEHAL Thank you. You then deal with the sabotage of the water pipeline, which took place on the 29th to 30th of June 1986. This is an item you sought amnesty for and is dealt on bundle A1, page 10, item 21, correct? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL Will you please read (i) to (v) into the record. MR LECORDIER "Allan Pearce, comrade McBride and I were involved in this operation. At the stage this took place, Allan Pearce had been recruited by myself into the cell that was made up of Antonio du Preez and myself. As an operation which was in line with the disruption of industrial water supplies to the New Germany/Pinetown area, and which sought economic sabotage and armed propaganda on behalf of the ANC. This operation was also planned as an initiation operation for Allan Pearce, as he and I and Antonio would be working together. The method of operation was the same. Robert dropped off Allan and I. The intention being that we must get confidence of placing charges without comrade Robert. Comrade Robert then picked us up after about five minutes after we placed the charges and we drove off. The pipes were damaged and the water supply to the industrial area was disrupted for a few days. There were no deceased, no persons injured. Comrade Robert was convicted and sentenced for this operation. We attach the charges to the valves as the pipes had lagging around them and the magnet could not hold onto it." MR DEHAL Thank you. Then you deal with illegal possession of arms and ammunition. This deals with the two Shangwene DLBs. You recall that? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do. MR DEHAL Will you please read (i) and (ii) into the record. MR LECORDIER "I made two separate trips to the Shangwene area, for the purpose of bearing arms. This I did under comrade Robert's instructions. On our first trip I went with Robert and we dug a hole. On the second trip we took the arms and buried it there." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you continue. "We took the arms and buried it there", did you just have one weapon or is this a typing error? MR LECORDIER No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Can you just give an indication of the quantity of arms and the type of arms that were buried when you buried them. MR LECORDIER It was a variety of weapons, Mr Chairman. MR DEHAL And were these weapons placed in plastic bags and buried into the hole that was dug there? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL So it was an arms cache, is it? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL That concludes the number of incidents/operations, for which you seek amnesty and the one of course that was mistaken as being an operation that you sought amnesty for. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL You now deal with your role as a State witness, as a State witness in the trial of State vs Robert McBride and Derek McBride, correct? MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. MR DEHAL Will you please go to page 10, paragraph 12 and read that into the record, slowly please. MR LECORDIER "As is common knowledge I was arrested by the Security Police. I was repeatedly assaulted, humiliated, intimidated, threatened and abused by the Security Police in diverse ways. Under the threats, amongst other things, that they would take my family away from me, cause harm to my family, in particular to my son, to his mother and to my mother and father. And pursuant to various acts of assault on my person, I was induced into becoming an State witness. The Security Police insisted that hand-write a statement. Which I did over several days. When they were dissatisfied with the first attempt, they made me rewrite it, insisting that I include in it various suggestions and versions they had proffered to me. I subsequently, over the many days that passed, made various statements, one after the other and as they rejected each one, I was required to rewrite same. The final statement was a very detailed statement that went over many, many pages. I was frustrated and tired through this exercise. During the course of the trial, the various State prosecutors from the Attorney-General's office, including the Security Police, insisted that I comply with my statement and keep to it. And if I dared to deviate from it when I entered the courtroom, they would deal with me when I came out of the courtroom, for I had to return to them as I was in their custody. During the course of the trial I was very afraid of both my standing against my comrades and of standing with the police and indeed my fear of standing against the police as well, and indeed against the prosecutors. When I entered the courtroom I was very nervous. I tried to help Robert, but could not do this as shortly after that attempt of mine and during the adjournment that followed, the Security Police and the prosecutors threatened me and held a noose in front of me, which they had on various previous occasions as well, and said that I was close to my death if I dared attempt to save or help Robert in any way. I recall that when on the various subsequent adjournments I was placed in a room. The Security Police and the prosecutors would bring my police statement to me and insist that I go through it thoroughly and keep to it. I was being brainstormed." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Brainwashed. MR DEHAL Thank you, that is correct, it's "brainwashed". CHAIRPERSON Are you alright, Mr Lecordier? MR LECORDIER I'm okay. CHAIRPERSON You don't want a short break? MR LECORDIER Please, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON This will be an opportune time to take the short tea adjournment. MR DEHAL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MATTHEW LECORDIER (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL (cont) Mr Lecordier, you were busy with the background and your involvement as a State witness in those trials, earlier trials. Do you mind looking at the top of page 11 and beginning at (ix). "In the result ..." MR LECORDIER "In the result, the judge found that I was not a satisfactory State witness, having not made full and open disclosure and did not indemnify me. My version as a Security Police witness, as a State witness in the trial was largely incorrect, being a version that the police suggested to me. In particular, the version relating to my intention at some stage to carry out an armed robbery, was one that the Security Police made up and insisted I add, so as to criminalise this whole political event. On occasions I attempted to argue this against them, but they beat me up and repeated their threats. I had to say this in Court. I have since the trial was over, apologised to McBride and we have reconciled and he has understood that I was a victim of circumstances, a victim of the brutal Security Police. At some stage after the trial, the Security Police congratulated me on the assistance I gave to them. They paid me an amount of money, although I do not recall the precise sum. I think it was either R2 000 or R2 500. They arranged an employment for me in Cape Town. However, they wanted me to be a spy for them. When I refused to continue to participate with them, I was forced out of this employment. This happened as a result of a fight I was engaged in with one of the co-employees. On reflection, it appears clear to me that this was set up to force me out of my employment. In Cape Town there was a Security Policeman who was in charge of me and whom I remember as Kannemeyer, a Coloured man from Mitchell's Plain. Shortly I left the above employ, the Security Police again approached me and requested that I infiltrate some of the unions and give information on them. As I was under pressure from them, I decided that the best thing for me to do was to simply escape, so that they could not trace me. The fear I had was, I could not return to Wentworth, my home town, as the people regarded me as a sell-out in view of my having assisted the Security Police in being a State witness against comrade McBride and the other comrades. I was at a loss to understand where to go and in the result felt hopeless and lost. I had no-one to turn to. The Security Police had made a misery of my life. They had caused me to be an outcast by my own people and indeed caused me, forcibly, to turn against my very own comrades. They were not concerned about this position they placed me in, but were selfish in their desires, continuing in their instance that I infiltrate organisations to help them. In the result I was left alone without friends and family, without a job, utterly frustrated, deeply distressed and not knowing which way to turn. As earlier indicated, I was neither indemnified in the earlier trail, nor charged with the acts for which I seek amnesty. I seek amnesty for all these counts and apologise to any persons that may have been injured or killed, directly or indirectly as a result of my participation in any of the aforesaid operations. I have no hesitation in engaging in reconciliation with any of the victims of the family members of the deceased. I am sorry for this. It was understood by us that the Security Police were keenly desirous to destroy us after they used us as State witnesses and threw us back into society. The society kills us for being State witnesses. The Security Police knew this and wished it upon us. When I was in detention and before I became a State witness, the Security Police questioned me only about operations that I was involved in and this made me suspicious about whether any of my comrades and sold out on me, as they were not talking of any other operations and knew of all the operations that I was involved in. At this stage I became concerned and in the belief that I was sold out by my own comrades, felt it easier to handle being a State witness. I mention this as I am concerned generally about the people in Wentworth and what view they may hold of me when I am released to Wentworth. I want them to know that I was forced into this situation. I repeat that I am very sorry for all the sorrow, hurt, harm, that I have caused to the victims and their family members as a result of my participation in the various operations." MR DEHAL Thank you. Mr Chairperson, in (xix), on the fourth line the word "their" should read "they". So it would be as "they were not". I apologise for that, Mr Chairperson. Mr Lecordier, you say that at the time you were so threatened by the Security Police and on occasions by the prosecutors, you had a son, correct? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL You had also had threat issued to you in regard to your mother and father. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL What was the threat in regard to your Mom and Dad? MR LECORDIER The Security Police told me that they would take everything away from my Mom and Dad, meaning the house that they had worked so hard for. MR DEHAL And as regards your son? MR LECORDIER They told me they would kill my son if I did not do what they wanted me to do. MR DEHAL And your son's mother? MR LECORDIER And my son's mother, they would kill her as well. MR DEHAL Is this the only child you had at the time? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL Thank you. If I may take you to the Klein incident. Klein as a target, was that chosen by you or McBride? MR LECORDIER It was chosen by me. MR DEHAL What was McBride's instructions to you on incidents of this nature? Was it a general set of instructions on collaborators, Labour Party members? Was he specific about different people? MR LECORDIER He never specified who we must attack. He gave me a few names of people and police collaborators, like Mr July, Mr Pearce, Mr Klein, and I chose Mr Klein. MR DEHAL Thank you. Mr Chairperson, that's the evidence, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Dehal. Ms Kooverjee? MS KOOVERJEE No questions, Sir, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS KOOVERJEE CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard - sorry, Mr Prior. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, sorry. We've agreed that I go before Mr Richard, I have a few general questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Prior. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Lecordier, the Fairvale Unit was in existence, or you were part of the Fairvale Unit before you were drafted into Special Ops, or were you never drafted into Special Ops? MR LECORDIER Yes, I was recruited into Special Ops. ADV PRIOR But you were first part of the Fairvale Unit? MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR Did you perpetrate the attack on Mr and Mrs Klein as part of the Fairvale Unit or part of Special Ops? MR LECORDIER As part of Special Ops. ADV PRIOR And how long had you been with Special Ops before you decided that Klein was a legitimate target? MR LECORDIER I think if I remember correctly, it was about a month before the Klein incident that I was recruited into Special Ops. ADV PRIOR And is it clear from your statement you wished to kill Mr and Mrs Klein by throwing grenades into the bedroom? That was your intention. MR LECORDIER Yes, it was. ADV PRIOR To kill both of them. MR LECORDIER To kill Mr Klein, yes. ADV PRIOR And Mrs Klein. MR LECORDIER Well I accepted it as she would be a justifiable victim caught in the crossfire. ADV PRIOR I don't want to go over to Mr Richard's cross-examination, I'll leave that there. When you were arrested by the members of the Security Police, was that more-or-less at the same time as your other comrades? MR LECORDIER I'm not sure on that because I didn't know they were arrested. ADV PRIOR And did you at first deny all knowledge of what they were saying? Well, just tell us what the position was. MR LECORDIER Yes, I did deny it at first. ADV PRIOR And then did they start torturing and assaulting you? MR LECORDIER Yes. ADV PRIOR Did they suggest to you that you should turn as State witness against ... MR LECORDIER Yes. I wouldn't say suggest, I would say I was forced. ADV PRIOR And that was as a result of the treatment you received? MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR Now I have understanding as to your predicament, you were obviously - you were being held under Section 29, is that correct? MR LECORDIER That's right. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Prior. When you were giving evidence as a State witness at these trials you've referred to, were you still a Section 29 detainee or were you released? MR LECORDIER I was not released, Mr Chairman, I was still detained at the time. CHAIRPERSON So you were in custody the whole time during the course of both those trials, I think three trials weren't there? Where you testified, the three trials. MR LECORDIER That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Prior. ADV PRIOR I'm particularly concerned about the run-up to your giving evidence. It seems that you were never in a situation that you could either report your treatment at the hands of the police to anyone in partial, like a magistrate or a judge or some other independent body. Is that the position? MR LECORDIER The thing is, what you're asking me is who was I supposed to report this to. ADV PRIOR Well, were you ever visited by a judge or a magistrate whilst in custody? MR LECORDIER Not that I recall. ADV PRIOR And at the trial ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY If they did come, you would have remembered it surely. MR LECORDIER Yes, I would have. ADV PRIOR Before you testified against Mr McBride, you had been assaulted, you had been treated as you've described, in addition to that the life of your child and his mother and your parents had also been threatened. MR LECORDIER Yes. ADV PRIOR During the trial you indicated that at various adjournments or intervals, the prosecutors and the members of the Security Police would visit you and show you statements that you had made, or a statement that you had made to, that you would go over in order not to forget. Was that done within the precincts of the Court itself? MR LECORDIER Yes, it was done in the Court building. ADV PRIOR Can you recall who the prosecutors were, the State prosecutors? MR LECORDIER I think it was Mr Shope(?), Mr de Wet, I'm not sure on the third name. ADV PRIOR Were they the counsel that were representing the State at Mr McBride's trial? MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR From the record I think there's reference to a Mr Slabbert SC. MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR Is it your evidence that during various intervals these three persons ... Was it at the same time or at various times? MR LECORDIER At different times. ADV PRIOR ... whilst you were giving evidence, caused you to refresh your memory or to refer to your statement that you had made to the police? MR LECORDIER The thing is you say whilst I was giving evidence. There were adjournments and this is when this took place. ADV PRIOR Yes. Yes, I mean you were giving evidence then the matter would be adjourned and during those intervals you were approached, as your evidence indicated, by State prosecutors as well as members of the Security Police. MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR And there they would at those occasions, impress upon you the need for you to adhere to the statement that you had given to the Security Police before you had started your evidence. MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR Did you ever complain to, for example, Mr Slabbert, who was the leader? Obviously, the leader of the prosecution. MR LECORDIER No, I did not complain. ADV PRIOR Are you able to recall any of the Security Police that attended those particular meetings whilst you were giving evidence, in order for you to adhere to your statement? MR LECORDIER The thing is it was such a long time ago, I can't recall it. ADV PRIOR Yes, but are there any names that stick out? For example, the investigating officer must be known to you. MR LECORDIER I think it was de Beer ...(intervention) ADV PRIOR Was he there, for example? MR LECORDIER ... and Adendorf. ADV PRIOR Are those two names that ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER Those were the ones that were always working close with me. ADV PRIOR And were they present on those occasions where you ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER On some of these occasions, yes. ADV PRIOR Now I see from the record there was some stage where there was almost a trial within a trial, because you had referred to a statement and it turned out that it was a statement that you had prepared yourself to assist yourself, in other words it was your own notes. Is that correct? MR LECORDIER I wouldn't say it was my own notes, there were quite a few statements that I had written that I was forced to write. ADV PRIOR Sir, I'm just referring to the record where any summation, Judge Sherrer refers to a problem in your evidence where you had referred to some notes and it turned out that they were notes that you had made and the defence on behalf of Mr McBride, raised this and properly so. I just want to get clarity on that. What comes across in the trial record is that you had made those notes yourself, unbeknown to the police and the prosecution. What is your explanation about that? MR LECORDIER I don't where you got that information from. ADV PRIOR Alright, well ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER The thing is I was forced to write those things that were said in there. It's not a thing that I just did on my free will. ADV PRIOR Yes, I understand. I'm asking you whether you can explain what the true position is. We know from evidence ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER I've just explain it to you. ADV PRIOR Just hold on, just hold on. We know from evidence given by Mr McBride, that a lot of what was said at the trial was not true, it was done specifically to, for a purpose because they didn't trust the system. And I think you may have gone along with that, to whatever extent. I'm asking you, there was a passage in the judgment, and if you give me a chance I'll get to it, where there was some discussion about notes that you had referred to whilst giving evidence. Do you remember that passage? Or that point in the trial while you were giving evidence. MR LECORDIER You know, it was such a long time ago, there's a lot that I don't remember because I've tried to put this thing behind me and go ahead with my life. ADV PRIOR I hear you, but we're here now listening to amnesty applications and we have to dredge up the past and we have to hear what the truth is. So just calm down and listen to the question. It's not a trick question. You see, do I understand you to say that it was the Security Police that were getting you to make statements? MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR They were also getting you to refer to your statements whilst you were giving evidence. MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR In was something that in those days was not permissible. Do you see what I'm getting at? And during the trial, in the judgment of Sherrer, and one of the reasons why your evidence was rejected as unreliable was because the notes you referred to differed from the statement that you had given. Do you remember that or don't you remember that at all? MR LECORDIER I don't recall that too clearly. ADV PRIOR Right. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, excuse me. Were you present in Court when the judgment was delivered? MR LECORDIER No, Mr Chairman. ADV PRIOR I'll refer just for reference to complete this, A2, bundle A2 at page 1872 of the judgment, the last third of the - in other words, two-thirds down the page, from the sentence "At one point his evidence, his reference to a statement prompted investigation under cross-examination." Just before I move on from that point, can you maybe just assist us. On how many occasions did the prosecutors and the Security Police visit you whilst you were standing down during the course of your evidence to impress upon you the need to stick to your statement that you had made to them? MR LECORDIER It was on many occasions. ADV PRIOR Too many to remember? MR LECORDIER I can't give you a number of exactly how many. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lecordier, when you gave evidence, for approximately how long were you in the witness box? Let's say in the trial of Mr Robert McBride. MR LECORDIER I don't remember. CHAIRPERSON Was it a question of days or was it a morning session or before tea? Can you give us just some idea, for how long did you testify for? MR LECORDIER I don't remember, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Have you got no idea, you don't know whether it was one day or more than a day? MR LECORDIER I know it was more than one day, but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON More than one. So quite a long time? MR LECORDIER It was a long time, but I can't say exactly how long. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, my understanding is that he was almost five days in the witness box. CHAIRPERSON A very long time. MR DEHAL I will confirm that, yes. ADV PRIOR Just one final question on this aspect. You indicated that you were also intimidated by the fact that in addition to this prompting by the prosecutors and the Security Police, you were also shown a noose. Who did that? MR LECORDIER It was one of the Security Police, I don't who exactly it was because it wasn't always the same guy doing this thing, the policeman doing it. ADV PRIOR Did that ever happen in the presence of any of the State prosecutors? MR LECORDIER I don't remember if it happened in their presence. JUDGE PILLAY Would it have happened in one of the rooms in the Court building? MR LECORDIER Yes, Judge. JUDGE PILLAY A noose brought to the Court building. MR LECORDIER Sorry, Judge, can you repeat that. JUDGE PILLAY That threat with the noose had occurred in one of the rooms of the Court building during one of the adjournments. MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR I want to refer you to page 10 of your statement, (vii), paragraph (vii). I just want clarity on this because what you've told me just now in response to my question, differs somewhat from you said in that statement. You said "... and during the adjournment that followed, the Security Police and the prosecutors threatened me and held a noose in front of me (which they had on various previous occasions as well) and said that I was close to my death." Could you possible just think about that and come back to my question, was the noose and the threat of death made by either the Security policemen alone or the prosecutors alone or when they were both together? MR LECORDIER The threats were made without the prosecutors. When we go back to the noose story, I'm not sure if it was done in front of the prosecutors or not, in their presence of not. I can't remember that clearly. ADV PRIOR We know from Mr McBride's evidence that his version under oath at the trial was in the main, regarding the Why Not bar, was not true, in respect of who had identified the target and so forth. And the evidence that he gave was that you at a very late stage on the evening in question, had said why bomb an innate building, it was just glass and bricks and mortar, you knew of a place on the beachfront where white people could be killed, proper targets, that's what the people wanted. Do you agree with that? MR LECORDIER No, I do not. ADV PRIOR No, no, that was what was said at the trial. Or don't you remember what happened at the trial? MR DEHAL Sorry, I'm just wondering whether there's clarity on this question. Is the question that that is what was said at the trial, or is the question do you agree that that is now your version? CHAIRPERSON MR LECORDIER I agree with that. ADV PRIOR Yes, what I'm putting to the witness is what happened at the trial and obviously it's in that context. MR DEHAL Sorry, the only difficulty I have is, I was present during the entire trial proceedings and I know that Matthew Lecordier was not present when any of the witnesses testified, and particularly not when McBride testified. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Dehal. ADV PRIOR Let me rephrase it. That was Mr McBride's version when he gave evidence. CHAIRPERSON Well perhaps we can ask Mr Lecordier. Were you present when Mr McBride testified in his trial? MR LECORDIER No. ADV PRIOR So you don't know what he said at the trial? MR LECORDIER No. JUDGE PILLAY Was it perhaps put to you by his counsel that you may have said so? MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR And you denied that because - well, maybe you can answer that. MR LECORDIER Was I supposed to admit something that I never said? ADV PRIOR So you denied it? MR LECORDIER Yes, I did. ADV PRIOR That that was the correct position. MR LECORDIER If I recall, I did deny it. ADV PRIOR And in fact that was the truth, because you hadn't planned and you hadn't identified Why Not bar as a target, is that right? MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR That was Mr McBride's doing. MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Prior. Mr Richard? MR RICHARD Thank you, Chairperson. ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, sorry, before Mr Richard - you would obviously have noticed that I questioned somewhat at length regarding the conduct of certain personnel of the Court and policemen. Maybe that can be raised later. There certainly seems to my mind to have been improper conduct, if it in fact did happen, which borders on either defeating the ends of justice or some other criminal conduct, and I would at the appropriate stage ask this Committee to consider what steps to be taken, if any. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Richard? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you, Chair. Mr Lecordier, you say you were born in Wentworth in Durban, is that correct? MR LECORDIER I never said I was born in Wentworth. MR RICHARD Where were you born? MR LECORDIER In Durban. MR RICHARD Now where did you live? MR LECORDIER I first lived in Clairewood. MR RICHARD For how long? MR LECORDIER I think till I was about 9 or 10 years old. MR RICHARD And after you turned 9 or 10, where did you go to live? MR LECORDIER My Mom and Dad had bought a place in Wentworth. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now from then on, did you live anywhere else besides in Wentworth? MR LECORDIER I'm not sure what you're asking me now. From then on until what stage? MR RICHARD From the age of 9 or 10 or whatever it was, you moved to Wentworth and after then, to be precise, until the time of your arrest, did you live anywhere else besides in Wentworth? MR LECORDIER No, I did not. MR RICHARD Now how far is Wentworth from the centre of Durban? MR LECORDIER I would say about five or six kilometres. MR RICHARD How old ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Richard. Just for my own information, was Wentworth its own place, did it have its own municipality, because you said you were born in Durban and not in Wentworth? It's not part of, or wasn't part of Durban? MR LECORDIER No, it's part of Durban, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was it just a suburb? MR LECORDIER Yes, it's a suburb. CHAIRPERSON I mean if somebody says were you born in Durban and you say no, I was born in Wentworth, you're fiddling around with words basically. I mean, because Wentworth is part of Durban. MR LECORDIER It's just the way he asked the question. He said to me "You say you were born in Wentworth". I did not say that to anybody. MR RICHARD Let's got back to my last question. I had asked how far is Wentworth from the centre of Durban, the beachfront area? MR LECORDIER I think it's about five or six kilometres. MR RICHARD My next question was, how old were you when you were arrested? MR LECORDIER I think I was 21 at the time. Yes, 21. MR RICHARD During the period from when you moved to Wentworth until your arrest, how often had you been to the beachfront area of Durban? Many times, seldom? MR LECORDIER I can't remember. MR RICHARD Give us an indication please. MR LECORDIER I can't remember. If you're asking me to remember from when I was 10 years old ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Were you familiar with the Durban beachfront? MR LECORDIER Yes, I was. CHAIRPERSON It was the sort of place you used to go to fairly regularly, as an inhabitant of Durban. MR LECORDIER I won't say I used to got there regularly. The thing is being a black we weren't allowed to be there, in that part of town. CHAIRPERSON But you were familiar with ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER I was familiar with the area. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR RICHARD Now from the time that you joined the Fairvale Unit you say, or before maybe, you attended various meetings at the Allan Taylor residence. Was it from before when you joined or formed the Fairvale Unit, or afterwards that you started attending meetings at the Allan Taylor residence? MR LECORDIER Can you repeat that please. MR RICHARD Did you go to meetings at the Allan Taylor residence before joining the Fairvale Unit? MR LECORDIER Before. MR RICHARD How often would you go to meetings at the Allan Taylor residence? MR LECORDIER I can't really remember how often I used to go there. MR RICHARD Was it frequently, was it seldom? MR LECORDIER I used to go there I would say frequently. MR RICHARD Frequently meaning once a week, every second night or what? MR LECORDIER About once or twice a week I used to attend meetings. MR RICHARD Who convened those meetings? MR LECORDIER Members of ANC. MR RICHARD And what was discussed ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER Students who lived at that residence. MR RICHARD I beg your pardon? MR LECORDIER Those were students who lived at the residence, members of the ANC. MR RICHARD And what was discussed at those meetings? MR LECORDIER We discussed lots of things about the situation in the country and what the ANC's policy is on changing the situation. MR RICHARD Now in and during the period 1985, what was the ANC's policy regarding changing the situation? MR LECORDIER I think you should refer to my amnesty application. MR RICHARD I've asked you the question. MR LECORDIER Mr Chairman, can I just speak to my attorney? CHAIRPERSON Well, can't you answer the question? MR LECORDIER No, it's not that, I'd just like to confer with my attorney. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RICHARD I must point out that the witness is under cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You are under - when a witness is under cross-examination, it's not done to consult with one's legal representative. MR LECORDIER Sorry, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Even during adjournments. MR LECORDIER Can you repeat your question. MR RICHARD And during the period 1985, when you went to meetings at the Allan Taylor residence, you say that the police the ANC regarding changing things in South Africa was discussed. My next question was, what was the policy of the ANC at that time regarding changing the situation in South Africa? MR LECORDIER Sir, my answer to you is this. There ware lots of things that I do not remember, I have put it behind me, I have been trying to get on with my life and with the result that there are lots of things that I don't remember anymore. I mean you're asking me to do something which I think is impossible, to remember every aspect of what was said ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Mr Lecordier, in 1985 there was a significant change in policy of the ANC, its armed struggle. Can you not remember that? MR LECORDIER Yes, I do recall a bit of it, Judge. JUDGE PILLAY Well isn't that part of the answer to the question? I can understand there's certain things that you through the passage of time, you can't remember, but surely one can't blank out. Those were important days of the South African lives. Proceed. MR RICHARD What do you understand the ANC's policy to have been at that time during 1985, regarding how it would cause South Africa to be changed? MR LECORDIER The ANC had called for patriots and supporters of the organisation to form units and to attack targets, meaning collaborators and policemen who supported the oppressors and oppressed us in this country. MR RICHARD And what else would those units do? MR LECORDIER I just explained to you now. They called units, they asked us to attack targets, which are collaborators, policemen and supporters of that government at that time. JUDGE PILLAY Mr Richard, are you referring to the policy in respect of the armed struggle only, or in general? MR RICHARD My next line of questions or sequence of questions would be along the lines, was there in his knowledge, separating the two, whether he was aware of any. JUDGE PILLAY No, I need to clear it up in my own mind, I'm not asking you about why you're asking questions. I'm just wanting to find out what you're referring to, because your initial question was very broad. MR RICHARD The applicant said he attended meetings at least twice a week at the Allan Taylor residence, at which things were discussed. Amongst this that were discussed was how the ANC would go about changing South Africa. I then asked what did he understand and his answer is that they would form cells and would attack policemen, collaborators. My next question is, is that all that units would do? Now by asking that question my question leaves it open for the witness to say they would recruit new members to create more cells, or they would propagate ANC propaganda, or they would - you know, I think it's a permissible question. JUDGE PILLAY I'm not saying it's not permissible, Mr Richard, you must understand me. I'm trying to figure out what you're actually asking. Proceed if you're going on a bit. MR RICHARD Apart for attacking policemen, collaborators, were there any other things that an ANC cell at this stage, like the Fairvale Unit, would do? MR LECORDIER Also intelligence gathering. We were required to do such things. MR RICHARD Did you do intelligence gathering? MR LECORDIER I did a little of it. MR RICHARD Can you remember what intelligence gathering you did do? MR LECORDIER Not clearly, no. MR RICHARD What would you do with the information you obtained, the intelligence you obtained? MR LECORDIER Can we get something clear here, are you talking about Fairvale Unit before I was recruited into MK? MR RICHARD With respect, Sir, it is for you to answer my questions, not me to be questioned by you. My question was very simple, it requires a direct answer and I submit you've being evasive. SIMULTANEOUS TALKING BY MR RICHARD AND APPLICANT MR DEHAL Sorry, may I come in at this stage. The last question was not correct. I mean I think the clarity that the applicant seeks is fair, he wants to know whether it was before Special Ops or after. CHAIRPERSON Well if intelligence was gathered, either as a member of the Fairvale Unit or as a member of the Special Operations Unit, what would you do with the material gathered, with the information gathered? MR RICHARD And to be more specific I'm now going to confine it to at the time you were a part of the Fairvale organisation, what would you do with the information you gathered? MR LECORDIER That information we gathered, when we met together, those of use who took part in the Fairvale arson attack, we shared it amongst ourselves. MR RICHARD Now I've already asked this question. Can you remember any specific item of information, apart from things relating to the Fairvale School, that you did gather and discuss amongst your unit? MR LECORDIER No, I don't. MR RICHARD Was the information that you gathered ever discussed at the Allan Taylor residence? MR LECORDIER About Fairvale, no. MR RICHARD Now when were you recruited into Special Operations? MR LECORDIER About a month before the Klein incident. MR RICHARD When was that? MR LECORDIER I've just answered you, Sir. MR RICHARD Your answer means that I have to work out and put it to you, a month before the 1st of May is about the 1st of April. It would be easy for you to answer the 1st of April 1986. Now I put it to you, were you recruited into Special Operations around the 1st of April 1986? MR LECORDIER I don't remember the date, that is why I said "about a month before the Klein incident". MR RICHARD Now before you were recruited into the Special Operations Unit, were you ever taught what would be an acceptable target or an unacceptable target? MR LECORDIER No, I was not taught anything like that before. MR RICHARD So, prior to approximately the 1st of April 1986, you had no knowledge at all of whether a particular target would be legitimate or not. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR RICHARD Now am I correct in understanding that it was not on the 4th of May 1986, but more like the 1st of May 1986, that the attack happened on the Klein household? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR RICHARD Now we know that whatever training you received regarding target selection, happened after the beginning of April. What training did you receive as to target selection during that month? MR LECORDIER I was trained in the use of handgrenades and AK47s. CHAIRPERSON The question was, what training did you receive regarding the selection of targets, after your recruitment to the Special Ops Unit? Prior to the Klein incident. MR LECORDIER I was instructed to look for targets, people who were collaborators and supporters of the apartheid regime and policemen. MR RICHARD JUDGE PILLAY Let's put it this way. Why did you choose the Klein household? MR LECORDIER Judge, Mr Klein was a Labour Party member at the time, also a reserve policeman. JUDGE PILLAY Ja. Now did you choose him as a result of your own personal vendetta against him or how did you know that he would be an acceptable target? MR LECORDIER From the intelligence gathering that we had done. JUDGE PILLAY Ja well, what about the intelligence gathering? That he was a member of the Labour Party? MR LECORDIER He was a member of the Labour Party, he was a reserve policeman. JUDGE PILLAY But how did you know that members of the Labour Party should be attacked? MR LECORDIER This was the policy of the ANC. JUDGE PILLAY Who told you that? MR LECORDIER It's what I read in the Setchabas and also listened to the voice of the ANC. JUDGE PILLAY I see. Yes, Mr Richard. MR RICHARD I return to my question. I put it to you that no-one gave you any training whatsoever prior to the attack on the Klein household, as to what would be an acceptable target or not an acceptable target. Am I correct in my proposition? MR LECORDIER You're wrong. MR RICHARD Then my question is, what training did you get as to what criteria you would use to ascertain what is a legitimate as opposed to inappropriate target? What training did you receive? It's a simple question. MR LECORDIER I think Judge Pillay put the question in a simpler form and I answered it. MR RICHARD No, you have not answered my question, you appear to be reluctant to do so. What training did you receive? I know that you were told to select people who were Labour Party members, but that is not an answer to the question. JUDGE PILLAY Mr Richard, what type of training would you have in mind? MR RICHARD Target selection and choice of, as is termed in these proceedings "the mission", involves a number of factors. If the witness's evidence is, which is certainly not so far, that he was told find labour party members and go and attack them, so be it. However, he says it was more than that. In which case I want to know what the more is, was he told when civilian casualties would be acceptable and when weren't, and all those sort of criteria. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you could be more specific in your questioning Mr Richard, because you asked him if he was trained in target selection, he said yes, well he was told to target policemen, police reservists, members of the Labour Party. Then your next question was well, what criteria were you trained in. I mean now if I was told that policemen were a target, what more do you need to say? So perhaps if you could be specific because otherwise we might, you might not be getting an answer to your question for the simple reason that the witness is not exactly sure of what you're trying to get at. MR RICHARD Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ask him if there was anything about crossfire and civilians etc. MR RICHARD Was the question of crossfire and casualties in the process of crossfire ever discussed during April 1986? MR LECORDIER Yes, it was discussed. MR RICHARD With whom did you discuss it? MR LECORDIER My Commander, comrade McBride. MR RICHARD What did your Commander instruct you and say to you in the discussion? MR LECORDIER It was accepted that on certain missions people might get caught in the crossfire, who were not our intended targets. MR RICHARD Under what circumstances would it be accepted to have people caught in the crossfire? MR LECORDIER You say to have people caught? Like we placed them there or something. MR RICHARD Under what and in what circumstances would it have been acceptable to go on a mission which resulted in, to use the phrase nowadays, collateral injuries? MR LECORDIER Sir, I was trained as an MK operative, combatant, by my Commander, Robert McBride. I was not allowed to ask questions or to question his decisions. MR RICHARD I come to the essence. When you went on that exercise that night to throw handgrenades at the Klein residence, did Mr McBride know that you were going to attack the Klein residence? MR LECORDIER He didn't know from me. MR RICHARD Did you at any stage tell him that you were going to throw handgrenades at someone's bedroom window? MR LECORDIER No, I did not tell him that. MR RICHARD Was the choice of the target yours and yours alone? MR LECORDIER Yes, it was. MR RICHARD Now the next question is, during the month-long training that you admit that you received, was there anything that was taught to you as to when it would acceptable to throw handgrenades through a bedroom window or not? MR LECORDIER As to when it would be acceptable? MR RICHARD Under what circumstances might you be appropriate in throwing handgrenades through someone's bedroom window? MR LECORDIER Exactly what do you mean by that? MR RICHARD During the month of April, which is the entirety of the time you had been trained, according to your evidence, did anyone ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI Sorry, Mr Richard, I don't recall the witness saying that he was ...(intervention) MR RICHARD I asked him the question "Did you receive any training prior to 1 April, as to the selection of targets?" and the answer was "No, I did not". So now ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI Sorry, ...(indistinct) that he got the training for a month after being recruited. Because the impression that it gives me at least, when you say during the month-long training it's as if he was on a continuous training for that particular month after being recruited into Special Ops. That is the impression that it leaves me with. MR RICHARD In the circumstances obviously I'm questioning, I don't take down notes while talking, so ... Then the question can be put slightly differently. Were you ever told when it was permissible or might it have been permissible to go to a house late at night, approximately 2am and throw handgrenades through a window? MR LECORDIER How do you mean by "permissible"? When it's allowed to do such things? MR RICHARD Yes. When within the policies of the ANC you could do it. MR LECORDIER We were at war at the time. I don't understand what you are asking me. MR RICHARD My question is so simple I don't understand the confusion. MR LECORDIER Of course it was permissible, we were at war. CHAIRPERSON The question was, were you told that it was permissible to go to a house and throw a handgrenade through a window at 2am in the morning? Were you told that it was permissible or not, that is the question. MR LECORDIER Yes, I was told, but I wasn't told whose house to attack. MR RICHARD Very well. Now I would like you to discuss your knowledge of Mr and separately, Mrs Klein's involvement with the Labour Party. Why do you say that Mr Klein was involved with the Labour Party? MR LECORDIER That's the information we had. MR RICHARD Where did you get the information from? MR LECORDIER From my Commander and also from my own intelligence gathering as well. MR RICHARD What intelligence gathering did you do? MR DEHAL Sorry, may I interject. I don't think it's ever been Mr Richard's contention that he's placing in dispute that Mr Klein was a Labour Party member, and if that's not an issue I can't see the relevance of this line of questioning. MR RICHARD I don't see the relevance of the objection, the question is straightforward and relevant. CHAIRPERSON No, I'll allow the question. Just repeat it, Mr Richard. MR RICHARD What intelligence gathering efforts did you make? MR LECORDIER By following Mr Klein and seeing him attending these meetings and also his behaviour as a police reservist in Wentworth. MR RICHARD When, or how often did you follow him? MR LECORDIER Sir, I used to live very close to Mr Klein and I was aware of his actions and what he was doing, abusing the authority that he had. MR RICHARD How did he abuse the authority that he had? MR LECORDIER I think it was explained to us during this hearing, the course of this hearing. MR RICHARD I'm asking you the question. MR LECORDIER He used to go around in Wentworth and think that he was you know, there's nobody who could touch him, he could do what he wanted to do. In other words in my own words, a legal gangster, because if one went to complain by the police station about such people, nothing was done or we were chased away from the police station. MR RICHARD How did he abuse his authority, what did he do? MR LECORDIER I'll give you a small example. If he came round the corner and he saw a guy sitting without a fence by his yard, sitting in his front yard and drinking a beer, he would walk up to the guy and slap him up and tell he's drinking in public and take him to the police station and place him under arrest for something like that. MR RICHARD How often did incidents of that nature happen, to your knowledge? MR LECORDIER Sir, I had many other things to do, I never followed Mr Klein around every day. So I can't tell you exactly how often these things took place. MR RICHARD You've used ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER But it was often ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Mr Lecordier, you say you used to follow him to meetings, to Labour Party meetings, where would that be? MR LECORDIER Sometimes they used to hold them in the school buildings. JUDGE PILLAY Now how would you know those were Labour Party meetings and not educational meetings perhaps? MR LECORDIER Because of the people who used to attend. Most of those people weren't in the Education Department, or teachers for that matter. JUDGE PILLAY But how do you know those people were members or attached to the Labour Party then? How did those meetings acquire the label of Labour Party meetings, or why do you say they were Labour Party meetings? MR LECORDIER Judge, from information I used to get from people who used to attend these meetings too. By speaking with these people, that's how I got to find out such things. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lecordier, were these big public meetings or were they meetings attended by a small group of people? MR LECORDIER Actually, Sir, I can't really say if the group was big or small because they never really had much support, and I never used to like go and stay there, I just used to follow and see oh, he's going there okay. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard. MR RICHARD You say you spoke to people who went to these meetings, did I understand that comment correctly? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR RICHARD Please may I have the names of the persons or people. MR LECORDIER I don't remember the people's names that I've spoken to. The thing is I used to speak to them and make like I'm interested in what they were doing and these meetings that they were attending. That's how I used to gather some of my information. MR RICHARD How many such people did you speak to? MR LECORDIER I can't remember. MR RICHARD Was it one or more than one? MR LECORDIER It was more than one I'd say. MR RICHARD What - how often would you have spoken to such people? MR LECORDIER That I don't remember. MR RICHARD Now if I put it to you that it might have been that in and during '83, Mr Klein's involvement with the Labour Party consisted of assisting in putting up some posters, but very little more than that, would you agree with that proposition or deny it? CHAIRPERSON Just to make it clear, before we get into another debate. You're putting to Mr Lecordier that his only involvement with the Labour Party was assisting in putting up posters during or about 1983, or are you saying during or about 1983 his only involvement was putting up posters, then something else happened in '84 and something else in '85? MR RICHARD The extent was that in and during ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is that his ...(intervention) MR RICHARD ... his involvement was and thereafter ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So it was - his only real active involvement in the Party or to do with the Party, was assisting in putting up posters during or about 1983? MR RICHARD Correct, Chair. CHAIRPERSON That's been put to you, what would you say to that, Mr Lecordier? MR LECORDIER I wouldn't really know what or how deep Mr Klein was with the Labour Party when say "assisting in putting up posters". That's the information you got, you weren't living in Wentworth where I was living at the time. JUDGE PILLAY Mr Lecordier, you misunderstand. Mr Richard is entitled because he disputes Mr Klein's involvement the way you explain it. He is then entitled to put his instructions to you and he said that the only involvement, in terms of his instructions, is that Mr Klein helped the Labour Party in its election campaign in 1983, by putting up posters. What do you say about it? CHAIRPERSON The implication being that your evidence relating to his attendance of meetings when you were doing your own intelligence gathering, is not correct. That's what's being put to you. MR LECORDIER Then I'd say he's wrong. And then for one to put up posters for the Labour Party, doesn't that show that one is a supporter or a member of them? If you did not support the Party that I belonged to, would you go and put up posters? MR RICHARD What profession did Mr Klein practice at the time? MR LECORDIER He was a teach at the time, or a principal of the school. MR RICHARD You've mentioned a number of other names, what profession did they belong to? MR LECORDIER If I remember correctly, they were teachers as well. MR RICHARD Now if a number of teachers gathered together, would that be sinister in your mind? MR LECORDIER Could you be more - rephrase the question please. MR RICHARD If a number of ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think if you can be a bit more specific because teachers usually gather together when they go to work in the morning during term time and although many people might thing that's sinister, it's not really. MR RICHARD If a number of teachers gathered together at a time outside ordinary work hours, would you see that as something sinister? MR LECORDIER No, I wouldn't. MR RICHARD Now at these meetings which you say you know Mr Klein went to, do you know who else was at the meetings? MR LECORDIER No, I wouldn't remember who else was there. The thing is I was concentrating on one person at a time. MR RICHARD So that means you are telling us that you didn't know who else Mr Klein met with when he went to these meetings. MR LECORDIER It's not what I said. MR RICHARD I put my question again. Your evidence is Mr Klein attended certain meetings, am I right? My next question is, do you know who else besides Mr Klein was at those meetings? Your answer was "No", do you want to correct your answer? MR LECORDIER I said no, I do not remember the other people who were there because I was concentrating on Mr Klein at the time. ADV SIGODI Sorry. How did you link Mr Klein, the meetings and the Labour Party together, what was the common link? MR LECORDIER I was aware that these were Labour Party meetings that he was attending. ADV SIGODI How did you know that they were Labour Party meetings, that they were not some other meetings? MR LECORDIER Sometimes these meetings used to be advertised, sometimes people in Wentworth used to discuss that they've been asked to attend these certain meetings, Labour Party meetings. ADV SIGODI Yes. And if they were advertised, how would they be advertised? MR LECORDIER Like on a poster just placed on a wall or somewhere in Wentworth. ADV SIGODI And would this poster state where the meeting would be? MR LECORDIER The venue and the time. ADV SIGODI And the time? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR RICHARD Was it on a Labour Party poster? You know I think they used to have an anchor or something. MR LECORDIER Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Would that be the type of poster? MR LECORDIER That's right, Judge. I can't remember the exact poster, what it looked like. JUDGE PILLAY What I'm trying to get at, their name would be there and their logo would be there on the poster. MR LECORDIER That's right. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, you're talking about public meetings, the sort of meetings that would be held in a school hall rather than in some office somewhere. MR LECORDIER Open to the public. CHAIRPERSON Public meetings? MR LECORDIER That's right, yes. ADV SIGODI And did you at any stage follow Mr Klein to any of those meetings which were ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER I did. ADV SIGODI Thank you. JUDGE PILLAY What type of information would get to people who also attended that meeting, about Mr Klein's participation in such meetings? Or did you get in fact - let me ask it this way, did you get any information about that. MR LECORDIER Can you repeat that, Judge. JUDGE PILLAY Well you testified that you spoke to people who also attended those meetings, in the exercise of your intelligence gathering about Mr Klein. Would they tell you whether they participated in the meeting or not? MR LECORDIER Judge, I don't think I said it the way you're saying it to me. JUDGE PILLAY Well that's how I understood it. MR LECORDIER From what I said was ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Tell me then what you meant. MR LECORDIER What I said was from the intelligence gathering I did and also talking with people who attended these meetings, that's how I was aware that it was Labour Party meetings. JUDGE PILLAY Okay, now let me follow. Now these people who informed you that these were Labour Party meetings, did you ask them about whether Mr Klein participated in those meetings? MR LECORDIER No, Judge, I could not go into that because the people would get suspicious. JUDGE PILLAY Oh. ADV SIGODI Do you know who were the leaders of the Labour Party at that time? MR LECORDIER Sorry, Chairperson. ADV SIGODI Do you know who were the leaders of the Labour Party in Wentworth at that time? MR LECORDIER If I remember correctly, I think it was Pearce and July. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not sure if I remember correctly. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, could you just repeat that name, I didn't catch it, Mr Lecordier. MR LECORDIER Pearce and July. CHAIRPERSON Pearce and July? MR LECORDIER Mr Pearce and July. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR RICHARD May I proceed? Now ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER No, sorry, I'd just like to add, I also think it was Mr Abrahams as well. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now am I correct in understanding that what went on at these meetings is not within your knowledge? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR RICHARD Am I also correct in my understanding that as to the fact that Mr Klein went to these meetings, is a product of discussions between you and somebody else who did go to the meetings? MR LECORDIER That and also my own following Mr Klein. MR RICHARD Now do you have any other information that would support your statement that he was an active member of the Labour Party? MR LECORDIER No, I don't. MR RICHARD Now we then get to the point of Mrs Klein. My question there is, firstly, on what basis do you say she was a member of the Labour Party? MR LECORDIER I thought Mrs Klein was a member of the Labour Party. MR RICHARD My next question then is, what led you to think that Mrs Klein was a member of the Labour Party? MR LECORDIER At the time she used to attend some of these meetings, Labour Party meetings. She used to accompany Mr Klein to them. MR RICHARD It may as well be put on record that Mrs Klein denies ever going to any Labour Party meetings. Now which meeting did you - alright, let me rephrase that. You say she went to Labour Party meetings, on basis do you make that allegation? MR LECORDIER The times when I went to these venues, not every time I'm saying, but there were times when I saw Mrs Klein with Mr Klein there. I don't know if she drove him there and was supposed to drive the car back or what, but her presence alone, her presence, she was there. MR RICHARD Now on your version, was that once, twice or more often? MR LECORDIER It was more than once. MR RICHARD More than three times? MR LECORDIER I can't say if it was more than three times, I said more than once. MR RICHARD Now, do you believe that in and during the mid-'80s it was inappropriate for an ordinary member of the public to go to a meeting for no other reason that to hear what was said there? MR LECORDIER Can you repeat that please. MR RICHARD Do you think it was permissible, in and during the period '85/'86 ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think your first wording was appropriate rather than permissible. MR RICHARD Do you think it was appropriate in and during the mid-'80s for an ordinary member of the public to go to a meeting for no other reason than to find out what is being said? MR LECORDIER Yes, I think it was appropriate. MR RICHARD You've also conceded that you had ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Even a meeting that was run by a supporter of the apartheid parliament? MR LECORDIER It depends what reason he's going there for. It could be to gather intelligence, to see who is the main speakers or who is really attending. He could have his reasons for attending there. I'm not saying he's attending for the support of that Party. MR RICHARD Thank you. And if the reason for going there might have been nothing more than to go and hear what's being said, so as to be informed, would it be permissible for anyone at their will to go to that meeting? CHAIRPERSON You keep using this word "permissible", it wasn't an illegal Party, was it Mr Richard? MR RICHARD The Labour Party at the time was particularly, as then defined, legal. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it wasn't a banned Party, so I mean it would be permissible to go. MR RICHARD Sorry, Chairperson, the use of the word "permissible" as opposed "appropriate" is incorrect. Do you think it was inappropriate for an ordinary member of the public to go to a Labour Party meeting, or any other meeting convened by a Party that might or might not support apartheid, to find out nothing besides what's being said at the meeting? MR LECORDIER I don't see anything wrong with that. MR RICHARD And your evidence earlier was that you had no knowledge of what Mr Klein did while in the meetings. MR LECORDIER Sir, to take you back on your own words, you said Mr Klein used to put up posters for the same party. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Richard, just to get to the bottom of this line of cross-examination. You've put it on record that Mr Klein's - is it Kline or Klein, sorry? MR RICHARD Klein. CHAIRPERSON ... Mr Klein's only association with the Party was helping putting up posters in 1983. Now is it denied that he ever went to meetings? MR RICHARD It's not specifically denied that he ever went to meetings, but it is denied that he was an active participator and supporter of the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you, I just wanted to get that clear, to understand why these questions were being put. JUDGE PILLAY Mr Richard, let's just get something straight, I don't want to get caught in the crossfire as it were. Putting up posters, is that not an act of participation, whether as a member or supporter? MR RICHARD What might or might not have happened in 1983, doesn't necessarily mean that in 1986, three years later ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY I suppose he could have resigned, ja. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now let's go to the next point. The houses in Wentworth, many of them are almost identical to each other, is that not so? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR RICHARD So when you went and examined the outside of the Klein household, is it not correct that you knew precisely which was the bedroom? MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. MR RICHARD Now, if I take it further, am I correct in assuming that you would have known which end of the room the head of the bed would be positioned in that room, by virtue of where the doors and windows were? MR LECORDIER The thing is it sounds like you're putting words into my mouth here. I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The question, Mr Lecordier, is did you know how the bed was situated in the Klein's bedroom? Where the bed would be for instance and ... MR LECORDIER No, I did not know. No, but I knew it was the bedroom. MR RICHARD Now from what I can reconstruct the one handgrenade that did go through the window, went through in such a way that it landed, as it happened, at the foot of the bed. The other handgrenade, if it had hit its target, would have gone into the room at the other end of the room. Was that a deliberate plan between you and your colleague? MR LECORDIER We had planned and we agreed on throwing the handgrenades into the bedroom. MR RICHARD Did you agree to throw them through the window in such a way that they would each land in approximately the same place or might land in different places in the room? MR LECORDIER We just agreed to throw the handgrenades through the window into the bedroom. MR RICHARD Now at the time that you went to that house that night, did you think of Mrs Klein? MR LECORDIER Yes, I did. MR RICHARD Did you believe that she would be in the bedroom with Mr Klein? MR LECORDIER It's obvious. MR RICHARD Did you consider that there might have been other methods of attacking Mr Klein? MR LECORDIER No, I did not consider other methods. MR RICHARD Is it then correct that you felt that Mrs Klein was a permissible victim in the situation? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR RICHARD An acceptable, not permissible. Sorry for the misuse of permissible. Now, did you ever doubt your opinion regarding Mrs Klein? MR LECORDIER How do you mean doubt my opinion? MR RICHARD Did you ever doubt or feel that it might not be acceptable that Mrs Klein be injured in the attack? MR LECORDIER No, I did not doubt it. MR RICHARD Now what was your reason for selecting the Klein household over and above other potential households in the neighbourhood? MR LECORDIER Like I explained in my amnesty application ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think he said that he selected it because in his view the Kleins, well Mr Klein was a legitimate target. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF CHAIRPERSON Now are you saying you know, why didn't he throw it at somebody who wasn't a member of the Labour Party? I mean there are thousands of houses in Wentworth. MR RICHARD May I rephrase that. There were other people on your potential target list at the time, correct? Yes, or no? Other than the Klein ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER I don't know what list you're referring to here. MR RICHARD You listed a number of people other than the Klein family. MR LECORDIER But I did not mention there was a list. JUDGE PILLAY Look at it this way, was there any other person in the area who was suspected by you of being a member of the Labour Party and also a reservist? MR LECORDIER Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Now given that, at least one other person in the same position, why did you then choose, have you got any particular reason for having chosen Mr Klein? MR LECORDIER The reason I chose Mr Klein, he was closest to where we operated from and also I would not need transport to arrange to get away from there, and I had known the area very well. MR RICHARD In other words, he was the closest available target. MR LECORDIER He was the closest, but I won't say he was the closest available target. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now we turn to the question of Mr Klein being a police reservist. When did you first learn that Mr Klein was a police reservist? MR LECORDIER That was common knowledge in Wentworth. MR RICHARD Now, my question was, when was it common knowledge, 1982 or '85 or? MR LECORDIER I can't give you the exact year of when I got that information, but it was known I think, to all who lived in Wentworth that Mr Klein was a police policeman. I don't know from what year. MR RICHARD Do you know whether he ever stopped being a police reservist? MR LECORDIER I don't know that, I've heard it being mentioned here. MR RICHARD Now on what basis did you believe he was a police reservist in 1986, other than the general opinion? MR LECORDIER As I told you, it was common knowledge. I was aware that Mr Klein was a reservist. CHAIRPERSON You mentioned - you gave an example earlier about somebody sitting and having a beer and he came and slapped him up and took him to the police station. Was that - in what capacity was Mr Klein acting when he did that? MR LECORDIER At that time I recall he was still a reserve policeman. And the other thing I'd like to add is, if Mr Klein had resigned from being a reserve policeman, I was not aware of that and the thing is the other reserve policemen who used to be in his click or his gang, they used to still come and visit him often and he used to still go out into Wentworth with them. So I was not under the impression that he resigned from the reservists. MR RICHARD It's not disputed that sometime prior to 1986 he was once a police reservist, but it is disputed that by 1986, that he was an active, or involved police reservist. In fact, it's my instructions that he was never either very active or very effective and in fact had dropped it. Would you comment on my instructions? MR LECORDIER Sir, those are your instructions ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI Sorry, Mr Richard, I don't understand your question ...(inaudible) that he stopped being an active police reservist, but he nevertheless was still a reservist, or are you saying that he stopped being a police reservist in 1986? ...(inaudible) not get a distinction. MR RICHARD The distinction is, police reservist is a part-time activity and it's dependent on the particular person as to how much they make themselves available or not. As at 1986 or 1985, my instructions are that Mr Klein had not done anything of any note or significance in and about being a police reservist. He might still have been theoretically on the reserve list. Does that answer the question? ADV SIGODI Yes, I just wanted that distinction, so that I could also understand the question. I mean as from the, from stopping from being an active police reservist to being a non-active police reservist, but I don't understand if it's disputed that he was a police reservist at that time. MR RICHARD Now did you ever see Mr Klein go out on police duties? MR LECORDIER How do mean "go out on these duties"? MR RICHARD Travelled in a police van, go to the police station and stand behind the counter, go and investigate the scene of a crime. MR LECORDIER I've seen him often with other policemen and police reservists. I've seen him quite a few times ill-treating people in Wentworth. MR RICHARD When was that? MR LECORDIER When? Do you want me to specify it was on that day on that year? MR RICHARD Was it in 1983 or '84 or '85? MR LECORDIER I don't remember exactly which year it was. MR RICHARD Was it shortly before May 1986, or long before ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER Sir, I just said to you I don't remember. MR RICHARD Now let's return before leaving the point. What training did Mr McBride give you before April 1986? MR LECORDIER Mr Chairman, before I answer ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We're talking now besides the intelligence gathering? MR RICHARD Besides intelligence ... CHAIRPERSON Training for instance with the use of weaponry etc. If you could just briefly explain, Mr Lecordier. MR LECORDIER I will answer the question, Mr Chairman, but before I answer I'd like to be excused, call of nature please. MR RICHARD It's 1 o'clock, Chair. CHAIRPERSON I see it's almost 1 o'clock, so we'll now take the lunch adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MATTHEW LECORDIER (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Richard? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD (cont) Thank you, Chair. Mr Lecordier, before concluding on the attack on Mr and Mrs Klein's residence, I've been requested to put her version squarely to you. Her version is that she denies having ever been politically active or having any association with the Labour Party or the police reserve. Do you have anything to say about whether you accept or reject her version? MR LECORDIER I reject her version. MR RICHARD On what basis? MR LECORDIER You say she did not have anything to do with the Labour Party. Was not being married to Mr Klein, who was a Labour Party member, wasn't that enough? MR RICHARD If that is your answer, that is your answer. Is it your answer? MR LECORDIER Yes, it is. MR RICHARD She then goes on to say that at the time she disapproved and did not support her husband's marginal activities with both the Labour Party and the police reserve. Do you have anything to comment on that? MR LECORDIER I do not anything about that. MR RICHARD Do you dispute her statement in that regard? MR DEHAL Sorry, I think he's answered that, he doesn't know anything about that. CHAIRPERSON I think he's said he doesn't know anything about it. I suppose the answer would be, he can neither dispute nor agree with it. MR RICHARD MR LECORDIER MR RICHARD Did you go on any reconnaissance exercises ever with Mr McBride, prior to 14th of June 1986? MR LECORDIER I don't recall when, but I did go on reconnaissance with Mr McBride. MR RICHARD Where did you go on those exercises? MR LECORDIER We went to quite a few places, looking at substations and oil pipes and water pipes. MR RICHARD Did you ever conduct a reconnaissance of any police or military establishments with Mr McBride or alone? JUDGE PILLAY Did you go to the Natal Command? MR LECORDIER No, I did not go to the Natal Command. JUDGE PILLAY Did you participate in reconnaissance of the Why Not bar? MR LECORDIER No, Judge. MR RICHARD Until the evening of the 14th of June 1986, was the topic of a car bomb ever the subject matter of any conversation between you and anyone else? MR LECORDIER No. MR RICHARD Now, we turn to page 6 of your statement handed in this morning, paragraph 2. Where were you when Mr McBride came to see you that morning? MR LECORDIER Are you finished asking the question? MR RICHARD Yes. The paragraph ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON In paragraph 2 you say The question is, where were you when he came to see you? MR LECORDIER I was at home. MR RICHARD At what time in the morning was that. MR LECORDIER I don't remember the exact time of the morning. MR RICHARD Late morning or? MR LECORDIER It was early in the morning. MR RICHARD Now, did he ask you to have anything with you or to make any preparations for what was going to happen that evening or afternoon? MR LECORDIER He just asked me to make myself available that evening. MR RICHARD What time did he come and pick you up that evening? MR LECORDIER I don't recall the exact time, but it was after, it was dark when he came to see me. MR RICHARD Long after dark, shortly after dark? JUDGE PILLAY You say that he said you must keep yourself available at about 7pm that night, was it around there or after that or before that, that he came to fetch you? MR LECORDIER Ja, he came around about that time. MR RICHARD Now, at paragraph 3 you describe a journey into town. Now at that stage did you know where Ms Narkedien was? As you were driving into town. MR LECORDIER No, I did not. MR RICHARD Who was driving the car? MR LECORDIER Which car are you referring to? MR RICHARD The car that you were travelling in with Mr McBride. MR LECORDIER Mr McBride was driving the car. MR RICHARD Now, in the second sentence you state "As we drove over the bump, Robert explained to me that there were explosives in the boot of the car." Did he explain to you what sort of explosives? MR LECORDIER No, he did not go into detail, he just said to me there's explosives in the boot. MR RICHARD Did you know how much? MR LECORDIER No, I did not. MR RICHARD Now, at the Hyperama House and Home, you stopped and then at that stage did you become aware of where Greta's car was? MR LECORDIER No, I was not aware at that stage. MR RICHARD When did you become aware that she was around? MR LECORDIER When comrade McBride told me we must get out of the car and walk down to Greta's car. That's when I realised Greta was in the vicinity. MR RICHARD How far away from where you parked was Greta's car? MR LECORDIER I don't remember how far away we were parked. MR RICHARD Was it a number of car parking bays away or a block away? MR LECORDIER I'd say a number of car spaces away. MR RICHARD Then you say that she was instructed by Robert to drive and drive to the Marine Parade. Did he tell her precisely where on the Marine Parade to drive to, or just to drive onto the road called the Marine Parade? MR LECORDIER From what I remember he just said she must drive on the Marine Parade. MR RICHARD Do you remember the route she took to get there? MR LECORDIER Not exactly. I remember we drove to the end of West Street and turned left on the Marine Parade. MR RICHARD Do you remember why you turned left? MR LECORDIER Comrade Robert had instructed her to turn left. If I recall correctly. MR RICHARD Now, once on the Marine Parade, what transpired, did you travel Northwards and turn around, did you stop and start, or did you go to a specific place? What was it? MR LECORDIER I remember comrade Robert instructing Greta when we got down to the Marine Parade, to turn left from West Street, turn left into Marine Parade and just to drive and after driving for some time he told her to turn off the Marine Parade and drove back into town. MR RICHARD Now do you remember how far down the Marine Parade you drove before turning back inland, left I presume it was? MR LECORDIER No, I don't remember how far down the Marine Parade we drove. MR RICHARD Now, did you notice anything particular about the area that you drove through? MR LECORDIER How do you mean "particular"? MR RICHARD I'll rephrase and ask a slightly different question. What did you drive past? MR LECORDIER We drove past other cars, we drove past buildings on the Marine Parade. MR RICHARD Is it not correct that you drove past a number of tourist hotels? MR LECORDIER There were many hotels on the Marine Parade. MR RICHARD It's obvious if we took that road we drove past these hotels and the other buildings there. MR RICHARD Now, on that night, was the beachfront busy, was there a lot of traffic? MR LECORDIER I wouldn't say it was busy. As I mentioned, it was drizzling at the time and there wasn't a lot, I won't say there was a lot of traffic around. MR RICHARD But were there people around, was there traffic on the road? MR LECORDIER Yes, there was traffic on the road. CHAIRPERSON We can accept it that there would be some traffic, it was shortly after 7 o'clock on a Saturday night. MR RICHARD Thank you, Chair. Then, you drove back to the Hyperama House and Home and drove back to the Marine Parade. On the second journey, did you drive straight to a specific spot or did you drive around? MR LECORDIER No, on the second journey we drove around. MR RICHARD Once leaving the Hyperama House and Home, where did you go first? MR LECORDIER We drove down to the Marine Parade. MR RICHARD And then once on the Marine Parade you say you drove around. MR LECORDIER Drove along the Marine Parade. MR RICHARD For how long did you drive around the Marine Parade? MR LECORDIER I don't remember. MR RICHARD Was it five minutes or fifteen minutes or twenty minutes? MR LECORDIER I just said I don't remember, Sir. MR RICHARD Was it a short or a long period? MR LECORDIER I can't recall how long we drove for at that time. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I just want to get this straight. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr Lecordier. I thought the evidence was when you'd been driving around, the three of you, you went back to where the blue Cortina was. MR LECORDIER That's right. CHAIRPERSON And then are you saying that you got in the blue Cortina and drove around? MR LECORDIER We got into the blue Cortina and drove down to the Marine Parade. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and where did you drive to? MR LECORDIER On the Marine Parade we drove on the Marine Parade and then Robert had turned off at some stage, he turned off the Marine Parade. CHAIRPERSON I must have misunderstood your evidence, because I was under the impression that you drove to a particular spot and parked the vehicle and then Robert went off and then came back on foot. What are you saying now about travelling around? You say you went down and you travelled around the Marine Parade? - for a second time. MR LECORDIER For the second time ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Who? MR LECORDIER Robert was driving the blue Ford Cortina and I was in the passenger seat. CHAIRPERSON And Greta wasn't there? MR LECORDIER No. And then we drove off the Marine Parade and went and stopped. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Richard, you can carry on. MR RICHARD Thank you, Sir. When you say you drove off the Marine and stopped, where did you stop? MR LECORDIER I don't remember exactly where, I think it was at the bottom of Pine Street or somewhere like that. MR RICHARD Now how far from the beachfront had you drive once you had turned off the Marine Parade, was it a couple of hundred yards or right into Pine Street? MR LECORDIER It was close to the end of Pine Street. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, if you could just get my geography right. Pine Street, where does that end? That doesn't go down to the beachfront, is it? MR LECORDIER No, no. CHAIRPERSON Bree(?) Street goes to the Beach Front, Pine Street stops - is it near ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER I think Point Road if I'm not mistaken. CHAIRPERSON Yes, one - I don't know the street names, but one of those streets. But it doesn't go through to the beach? MR LECORDIER No, it doesn't go down. CHAIRPERSON But you stopped in Pine Street? MR LECORDIER That's right. CHAIRPERSON Or near the bottom there? MR LECORDIER That's right, close to the beachfront. CHAIRPERSON Is that near where Bakers Biscuits used to be, or was? It was somewhere down there? MR LECORDIER I'm not sure, Mr Chairman. MR RICHARD Near the Killarney Hotel, if I go though a ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER I'm not sure exactly where, but I know it was close to the beachfront, it wasn't too far away from there. MR RICHARD Let me try it this way. You turned left off the Marine Parade and probably turned left and right, something ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER I can't remember which way we turned and stuff like that. MR RICHARD Now do you know whether on that occasion you drove past the Parade Hotel? MR LECORDIER Yes, we drove past the Parade Hotel. MR RICHARD Was anything said when you drove past? MR LECORDIER No, not that I remember. MR RICHARD Now once you parked the car what did Mr McBride instruct you to do? MR LECORDIER Once we parked the car where? MR RICHARD Somewhere near Pine Street, or at the bottom of Pine Street. MR LECORDIER Comrade McBride instructed me, he gave me a firearm and he instructed me that if anybody approached this car I must shoot them and try and get away from there. MR RICHARD Now how long did you wait in the car? MR LECORDIER I'm not too sure on this, it could have been 30 to 40 minutes. MR RICHARD Do you know where Mr McBride went during that 30/40 minutes? MR LECORDIER No. MR RICHARD Did he ever explain to you what he was doing? MR LECORDIER No, he did not. He just told me he'll be back I must wait for him. MR RICHARD What do you think - what did you think at that stage was happening? What did you think was going on around you? MR LECORDIER I didn't think anything, I just - to my knowledge I knew that we were going to leave this car for another unit to pick up. MR RICHARD Then 30 or 40 minutes later Mr McBride returned. Was he alone? MR LECORDIER I think he was alone when he returned. MR RICHARD Ms Narkedien wasn't with him, correct? MR LECORDIER Yeah, that's right. MR RICHARD Then once he was in the vehicle what did he tell you to do? MR LECORDIER When comrade McBride got into the vehicle, he started the vehicle up and drove it down to the Marine Parade. MR RICHARD Where did he drive to? MR LECORDIER To the Marine Parade outside the Parade Hotel. MR RICHARD Now, is it not there that you saw Greta's car? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR RICHARD And it is also correct that it did not take you long to drive from where you had stopped in Pine Street to the Marine Parade? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR RICHARD In fact, nothing more than a couple of minutes or longer? MR LECORDIER It did not take long. I don't know exactly how many minutes we took, but it did not take long. MR RICHARD Now your evidence is that Ms Narkedien moved out of the parking spot and Mr McBride parked the car in the same parking spot that she had just vacated, and you at that stage were in the car containing, to your knowledge, the explosives. Have I understood it correctly? MR LECORDIER Can you repeat that please, you're asking me more than one thing. MR RICHARD I'm summing up what I understand of your evidence and I'm asking whether I've got it correctly. You and Mr McBride drove in the blue Cortina which contained what you had been told were explosives, correct? He drove to the Marine Parade and parked outside the Parade Hotel in a parking spot which had shortly before been occupied by the car driven by Greta. MR LECORDIER That was after Robert had shown Greta with his hand, a hand sign he used for her to move out of that parking. That's when she moved out and then Robert drove into that parking bay. MR RICHARD Did you see where Greta drove to? MR LECORDIER No, I did not. MR RICHARD Now, the events which you mention in paragraph (viii), page 7, at what stage were you asked to get the numberplate of the vehicle from the front? MR LECORDIER After Robert had parked the vehicle there. MR RICHARD Now when you say "from the front", what precisely do you mean? MR LECORDIER It was on the dashboard, the numberplate. MR RICHARD You then continue to say that "He then showed me a pin ..." That's at paragraph (x). How long between telling you to remove the numberplate from the front dashboard to the point in time that you showed you a pin, was it? Was it a long period or a short period? MR LECORDIER No, it was a very short period. MR RICHARD Now, from the moment that you arrived at the Marine Parade and Mr McBride gestured to Greta to move out of the parking spot, to the point in time that he showed you the pin, do you recall how much, approximately, time passed by? MR LECORDIER No, I don't recall how much time passed us by. MR RICHARD Was it a short period or ...? MR LECORDIER I just said I don't recall. CHAIRPERSON Did you spend any time hanging around doing nothing there? From the time that you got out of the vehicle, took the numberplate, saw the pin, did you spend any time just being there, loitering or whatever? MR LECORDIER No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON One can accept it would have been a reasonably short time? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR RICHARD Now once you saw the pin, what did you believe was happening? MR LECORDIER That's when I was convinced that it is a car bomb operation. MR RICHARD And were you in or out the car when you were shown the pin? MR LECORDIER I was still in the car at the time. MR RICHARD What did you do next? MR LECORDIER Comrade Robert instructed me that we must get out the car. MR RICHARD Now from the moment you got out of the car, what did you do? MR LECORDIER We got out the car and comrade Robert said I must follow him, which I did. MR RICHARD Where did you follow him to? MR LECORDIER We walked to Greta's car. MR RICHARD Where was Greta's car. MR LECORDIER It was parked about a block away. As we were approaching, that's when I noticed there's Greta's car parked here. MR RICHARD Now when you say you walked about a block, did you walk fast or slowly? MR LECORDIER I'd say it was normal, the way we were walking. MR RICHARD At a normal walking speed? MR LECORDIER That's right. MR RICHARD Did you have a chance to observe what was happening around you? MR LECORDIER Can your repeat that. MR RICHARD Did you have a chance, from the moment you got out of the car to the moment that you got into Greta's car, to observe what was happening around you? MR LECORDIER When you say "what was happening", I'm at a loss here. What was happening was normal. CHAIRPERSON Could you just be a bit more specific, Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Once you were out of the car and walking towards wherever Greta's car was, as you ultimately found out, is it not correct that you then had an opportunity to see firstly where what you knew was a car bomb was parked and the environment it was in? JUDGE PILLAY Mr Richard, are you talking about whether he saw any people in the vicinity? MR RICHARD That's the next question. JUDGE PILLAY Well I think we can safely say on a Saturday night in Durban beachfront, there were quite a few people there, the bomb hadn't gone off yet. CHAIRPERSON Just ask him directly what you want to ask him. MR RICHARD Did you see people around on the beachfront near where you had parked what you now knew to be a car bomb? MR LECORDIER I saw people near where we had parked this car. MR RICHARD Where were they? MR LECORDIER Geez ... MR RICHARD Were they in front of the hotel, across the road or ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER People were walking around in the area, we even walked past some of the people. MR RICHARD Did you notice any people in and around the Parade Hotel? MR LECORDIER I noticed there were people around, I did not take note of exactly where they were or where they were going to. MR RICHARD Were there a few people or many people? MR LECORDIER I can't say, it was a long time ago. MR RICHARD Now once in the car did you say anything to Mr McBride or to Ms Narkedien? MR LECORDIER No, I did not. MR RICHARD Did they say anything to you? MR LECORDIER Not that I recall. MR RICHARD At paragraph 15 you make the comment "Greta was smartly dressed on that day" CHAIRPERSON It was changed when it was read to "night". MR RICHARD "... that night". Why did you make that comment? MR LECORDIER Because I recall she was smartly dressed that night. CHAIRPERSON I think the import of the question was, why do you mention it in your statement? Has it got any significance at all, if not why did you mention it? Why did you put it in if you think it had any significance? That is what Mr Richard is wanting to know. MR LECORDIER The thing is, from what I'd known of Greta she wasn't a person to dress smartly and that's why it stood out that night. MR RICHARD At your trial ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, he wasn't tried as far as I know. MR RICHARD Sorry. At Mr McBride's trial you told a version different from this version. Did you ever sit down with the police and tell them exactly this, what you told the Committee today? MR LECORDIER I tried to, but they didn't want to accept it and they kept threatening me and beating me and asking me to say the things that they wanted me to say and to add to my statement. CHAIRPERSON So, your answer Mr Lecordier is - is your answer that you did tell them what you've told us today, but they didn't you, or you tried to but they wouldn't let you? What, I didn't quite ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER That's right, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON That you did actually tell them, but they ...(intervention) MR LECORDIER I did tell them, but they didn't want to accept it. CHAIRPERSON They didn't want to accept what you said. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR RICHARD I don't think it takes us any further. I've no further questions, subject to ... NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD ADV PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Yes. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR Mr Lecordier, hearing your evidence, the attack on the Klein home was the first mission that you'd carried out where you had identified the target and were going to kill people, that was your evidence, was it? MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. ADV PRIOR We've also heard evidence that the military act had to be politically tuned, it had to serve some purpose. What's just bothering me is that because of your relative newness in the unit, your decision to attack and kill people, I would have thought that maybe you would have mentioned it or possibly cleared it with Mr McBride, the Commander. Is there any particular reason why you didn't? MR LECORDIER When I was recruited by comrade Robert McBride, I was instructed to obey orders and to carry them out as a soldier and that is what I did. ADV PRIOR Yes, I understand the carrying out of the orders on an instruction, but the actual target selection, I'm just worried that in a sense the missions followed a particular schedule, it was left to you to target people. MR LECORDIER Yes. ADV PRIOR Did you not think it important in those circumstances to maybe clear the target with Mr McBride? MR LECORDIER The thing is I wasn't allowed to discuss with him who I'm going to attack. ADV PRIOR Was that on a need-to-know basis? MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR And he didn't need to know who you were going to attack? MR LECORDIER He didn't need to know who I was going to attack. ADV PRIOR Just one last aspect on the Why Not incident. At page 6, paragraph 6 of your statement, Exhibit S, something has just struck me. All three of you at some stage went down to the Marine Parade in Greta's car, is that correct? MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR You left the blue Cortina behind with the explosives. MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR No-one was guarding it? MR LECORDIER No. ADV PRIOR When the vehicle was taken to the bottom end of Pine Street you were then asked to guard the vehicle, is that correct? MR LECORDIER That's right. ADV PRIOR Are you sure of that? MR LECORDIER Yes, I'm sure of that. ADV PRIOR Was there any reason why it wasn't guarded at the earlier stage? MR LECORDIER I don't know. The thing is like I said, I acted on a need-to-know basis, I did not question my Commander. ADV PRIOR When you left the blue Cortina at the Hyper House and Home on the first occasion, was it locked or unlocked? MR LECORDIER I think it was locked. ADV PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Dehal, do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL Thank you, Mr Chairperson, very briefly. Mr Lecordier, during the trial, McBride's trial, you said you were given your statement on various occasions during recesses, tea recesses, lunch recesses, to read. Was the entire statement given to you or just parts of it? MR LECORDIER It was the entire statement, but I was made to read parts of it. MR DEHAL Now you recall there was one occasion when you were cross-examined by Mr McBride's lawyer and it became apparent that whilst you were under cross-examination your statement was given to you during a recess, whilst under cross-examination, for you to read. MR LECORDIER Yes, I recall. MR DEHAL And there was much argument in the trial and you then admitted that the statement was given to you to read. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL An application then followed to obtain your entire statement, do you remember that? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL And do you recall what happened thereafter? MR LECORDIER I'm not really sure what took place after that. MR DEHAL Well do you remember that arising from the application, the defence then obtained a single page of your statement, which is contained in this transcript I showed to you, volume 15, 1 page of your statement. Do you see that? MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL Is that a copy of a page of your statement, firstly? MR LECORDIER And is that the only page that was then handed to the defence as being the only page you read during the recess? MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. MR DEHAL Now as it correct that this was the only page you read during the recess? MR LECORDIER No, that's not correct. MR DEHAL Did you read more than - sorry, firstly, did you read many pages of your statement during the recess? MR LECORDIER Yes, I did. MR DEHAL How did it come about that this one page was selected to be given to the defence? MR LECORDIER During the trial and while they were questioning me it was revealed that I had access to my statement and I admitted that and somehow defence had asked for this, access to this statement of mine. MR DEHAL Yes, I mean your statement had many pages. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL How did it come about that the decision was made for this single page, which we now have before us, a copy of which of course, was to be given to the defence as being the only page that you had read? For you now say that's not true. MR LECORDIER I'm not sure of the events in Court that day, but I think that they had asked me in Court "Have you been given your statement to read through?" and I said "Yes" and they referred to this certain page. MR DEHAL Okay. Do you see in this statement there is a paragraph that says - firstly, is this your handwriting? MR LECORDIER Yes, it is. MR DEHAL Okay. I know that you've said that this was dictated to you and told to you by the police etc. You see there's a paragraph here which says "We told him we needed money and asked him if he could lend us guns to rob a bank and if he could we can help him. Robert agreed." Now when you say "We told him ..." the preceding paragraph makes it clear that you told Robert that you needed money and guns to rob a bank, do you remember that? MR LECORDIER Yes, I remember that. MR DEHAL Now firstly, did this ever take place, namely did you ever ask Robert for money and guns to rob a bank? MR LECORDIER No, I did not. MR DEHAL How did that come to be in your statement? MR LECORDIER The place, Security Branch threatened me, put a noose around my neck, threatened to kill my family if I did not say things like this. To me it seemed like they wanted to criminalise this whole event. MR DEHAL Now did you ever intend to rob a bank? MR LECORDIER No, I did not. MR DEHAL Did you ever discuss with Robert the need to rob a bank? MR LECORDIER No, I did not. MR DEHAL Your statement went into many, many pages you said. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Now this particular page which deals with the criminal element, how was this page selected, did you say that this is the page that you read during the recess, or did the prosecutors and the police, or the police alone decide that this is the page that must be given to the defence? MR LECORDIER I'm not sure whether I said this is the page or whether the prosecutors said this is the page that I read during the recess. MR DEHAL Yes. Now you talked about the noose briefly just now, in your earlier evidence you talked about how the noose was placed around your neck, or sorry, was shown to you. Was the noose ever placed around your neck at any stage? MR LECORDIER Yes, it was. MR DEHAL On one occasion, on many occasions? MR LECORDIER On more than one occasion. MR DEHAL By whom? MR LECORDIER By Security Branch police. MR DEHAL And did they make any threats when they placed the noose around your neck? What did they ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think the mere placing of a noose around the neck, whether or not threats were made I mean, is in itself a threat. MR DEHAL I accept that. Did the policemen make it clear with you that your evidence, or did you understand that your evidence against Robert McBride would be the basis for him to obtain the death sentence if convicted? MR LECORDIER Yes, they made that clear to me. MR DEHAL And when it became clear that your statement was read by you during the recess and you had agreed to this under cross-examination, if recall by Mr David Gordon, the senior counsel for the defence, did the prosecutors or the police ever become angry with you about that, about you revealing that you had the statement with you? MR LECORDIER Yes, they were very angry and upset about it. And it's one of the occasions when we adjourned when I was threatened again by the Security Branch police and also the prosecutors had told me that I must do what they have asked me to do and if I try and save Robert in any way, the noose is waiting for me. MR DEHAL Yes. Now if I may just get away from the Why Not incident and your general evidence, the Klein incident is something that Mr Richard dealt with at length. Firstly, Klein's house you were told - sorry, you were told that all the houses in Wentworth were the same, therefore you would have known ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well I said many of them were similar. MR DEHAL Sorry, most of the houses were similar and therefore you would have known which bedroom was where. Now Klein you said was a Labour Party member, was his house in any way different at the time it was attacked? MR LECORDIER Yes, it was very much different to the other houses in Wentworth. MR DEHAL Was it poorer, smaller, larger, bigger? MR LECORDIER Actually if one looked at Mr Klein's house and you looked at the houses on either side of him, it seemed like his house doesn't belong there, it's supposed to be in a, I'd say, another suburb with better housing. CHAIRPERSON Was it better or worse than the other houses? MR LECORDIER It was much better than the other houses, that the normal houses. MR DEHAL And you say that despite the difference your intelligence told you which was Klein's bedroom. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL Would you ever have attacked any empty houses? MR LECORDIER No, I don't see the purpose in attacking an empty house. MR DEHAL Do you recall an incident when Mr Klein was once shot and this matter featured in the press? He was shot whilst allegedly on duty as a ..(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, is this re-examination because you're introducing new evidence ...(indistinct) to allow cross-examination again, Mr Dehal. MR DEHAL Perhaps I may just deal with this, I'm sorry, address you briefly on this. Mr Richard had at great length talked about Mr Klein's police reservist duties and that he was not active etc., I had instructions from Mr Lecordier earlier about his active duties. I did not put the statement because I didn't think it was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Then I'll have to give an opportunity for further questions because this is new in fact. MR DEHAL It is indeed. Do you recall instructing me that Mr Klein was once, whilst on duty, shot as a police reservist and that this featured in the press and this is how you also knew he was a police reservist? MR LECORDIER Yes, that's right. CHAIRPERSON Do you know more-or-less when about that was, Mr Lecordier? When I say more-or-less, which year. MR LECORDIER I think Mr Chairperson, it was 1982 or '83, I'm not too sure on the year. MR DEHAL And finally, in regard to the Why Not aspect, I know my learned colleague, Mr Richard, talked about the second time and again the first time and I'm not too sure if you understood, I certainly didn't, when you got back to the Marine Parade and you drove along the Marine Parade, did that take place once, twice? How many times? That's with Robert, Greta and yourself. MR LECORDIER The three of us in the vehicle we drove along the Marine Parade once I think. MR DEHAL Yes. And after that drive you got back to the Hyper House and Home, if I understand it. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL And there picked up the blue Ford Cortina, got to Pine Street where you parked. MR LECORDIER Right. MR DEHAL And Greta and Robert then went off. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL And then when Robert came back on foot to you at the Pine Street spot, he then drove to where Greta was parked. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL And you said he waved to Greta to come off the bay. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL And then Robert parked the vehicle with the bomb in that bay. MR LECORDIER Yes. MR DEHAL That's when you gave him the numberplate, he pulled the pin and showed it to you. MR LECORDIER That's right. MR DEHAL So there was no going around the Marine Parade again? MR LECORDIER No, no. MR DEHAL Thank you. That is all thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Richard, just on this one point about - I'm not opening the cross-examination all over again, just on this one point about Mr Klein being shot? MR RICHARD May it please, Chairperson. The fact that they alluded to this statement doesn't mean that I'm going to cross-examine him on his police statement, even though I might in another fora have had that privilege. I think the only question to ask has been asked, when was it? I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Adv Sigodi, have you got any questions you'd like to ask? ADV SIGODI There's just one aspect I want to clarify. You say after you had left the car bomb at the Why Not bar you then went to the top of Ridge Road, where you stopped near the Ridge Road Police Station and Robert said he wanted to establish which the cops were going. He was concerned that we may have cordoned ourselves within the circle thrown around the town. Now when you got there to Ridge Road, did Gordon say - sorry, did Mr McBride say why he was concerned about the cops? - what he was scared of. MR LECORDIER I can't remember exactly what he had said, but gathered that it was to avoid being caught in a roadblock or... ADV SIGODI And did he say this in the presence of Greta? MR LECORDIER Yes, Greta was in the car at the time. ADV SIGODI Did you talk about the car bomb at Ridge Road, did you talk about it? MR LECORDIER No, we did not discuss it. ADV SIGODI You did not discuss it. Okay. CHAIRPERSON Judge Pillay, do you have any questions you'd like ask? JUDGE PILLAY Yes. Mr Lecordier, when you first were recruited to political activity in Wentworth, what was your educational qualifications at the time? MR LECORDIER At the time I had left school in standard five, so I'd say standard four. JUDGE PILLAY And you never improved your education at that stage? MR LECORDIER I did go back to night school at Fairvale School, Judge. JUDGE PILLAY After this? MR LECORDIER No, before joining MK. JUDGE PILLAY So by the time Mr McBride's trial was on, what were your qualifications then? MR LECORDIER It was still the same, standard four. JUDGE PILLAY Standard four. Did you perhaps know that by the time you gave evidence, you were no longer held under Section 29, which entitled you to the assistance of an attorney or legal representation? Or didn't you know that? MR LECORDIER I didn't have an idea about things like that. JUDGE PILLAY And the pressure you felt being brought to bear on you, to testify against Mr McBride, was that only in respect of his trial and to get his conviction, or what was the position? MR LECORDIER Judge, can you rephrase that for me please. JUDGE PILLAY You know you say you felt pressure into testifying against him. MR LECORDIER Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Was it intended by the policemen, as you interpret it, that once you testified against him and they were able to secure a conviction and the appropriate sentence that they wanted, that you were no longer in danger and your family was no longer in danger? MR LECORDIER That was explained to me by the police, but I personally felt that my family was in danger and I was in danger. JUDGE PILLAY Even despite you doing what they wanted? MR LECORDIER Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Why? MR LECORDIER I just felt that way at the time, Judge. I even - I was feeling pressure from, actually from both sides for turning against my comrade, for betraying them. JUDGE PILLAY You see, compared to your evidence against Mr McBride, your testimony today is quite different and I just want to test that and I may ask one or two awkward questions of you. You then say - were you released after you testified, or what was the position? MR LECORDIER Yes, I was released. JUDGE PILLAY And where did you go to? MR LECORDIER The police took me to Cape Town. JUDGE PILLAY Why did you feel that you had to be under their protection then? MR LECORDIER It's not something I felt, Judge, it's the way they used to speak to me and stuff like that. I felt that it was better if I remain under their protection because they were impressing upon me that the people will be out to get me for what I had done. JUDGE PILLAY And how long did this feeling of suppression last? MR LECORDIER For a long time. JUDGE PILLAY Can you give an indication till when? Or is it still like that? MR LECORDIER The thing is it still exists, Judge. JUDGE PILLAY You see why I ask that question is because at some time during their - let's put it this way, while you were under their influence you refused to become an informer against the Unions. MR LECORDIER Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Now what strikes me is that you were able to resist it then and yet on other occasions you say you can't ..(indistinct) MR LECORDIER The occasions meaning at the trial? JUDGE PILLAY Well look, you say even after you testified you felt that you were still subject to their whims and fancies and you went to Cape Town and you felt safe with them, you took money etc. MR LECORDIER It wasn't my choice to go to Cape Town, Judge. JUDGE PILLAY Ja, you felt you had to go because they insisted. MR LECORDIER They insisted on it. JUDGE PILLAY Now up to that stage well and good. If you're struggling with this suppression, can you explain how is it you were able to resist their request or their instruction to become an informer against the Unions? How is it that you felt powerful enough to say no, I'm not going to be an informer, then, against the Unions, but yet on other occasions you felt you had to succumb? MR LECORDIER Judge, because in my heart I knew that that is not what I wanted to do and I had got tired of their attitude towards me. JUDGE PILLAY One last question. Mr Abrahams, Mr Pearce and Mr July, were they teachers or principals or in any way involved in education? MR LECORDIER I think maybe two of those names mentioned were teachers or principals, I'm not sure which. JUDGE PILLAY And as police reservists? MR LECORDIER As police reservists and as Labour Party members. JUDGE PILLAY They were all? MR LECORDIER That's right. JUDGE PILLAY I was just enquiring about their teaching connection and connection to the police. Were they? MR LECORDIER Yes, they were. JUDGE PILLAY All of them? Either one or the other. MR LECORDIER If I remember correctly, all of them. JUDGE PILLAY Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Just very briefly, Mr Lecordier. The Klein incident, you decided that Mr Klein would be a target. Did you then go and get the handgrenades, or did you have them while you were doing your recce work? When did you get the handgrenades that you used in that attack? After you had established your target or prior to that? MR LECORDIER I think it was before I established the target. CHAIRPERSON So how long would you have been in possession of those handgrenades then? MR LECORDIER I'm not too sure of how long, but I'd say about a week. CHAIRPERSON How many handgrenades did you get? MR LECORDIER Two. CHAIRPERSON And did you keep them? MR LECORDIER I had kept them and then I had given them to Allan Pearce to keep. CHAIRPERSON And when you went to the target on the night in question, were the lights out in the house? MR LECORDIER Yes, they were. CHAIRPERSON And when you went to the bedroom, were the curtains drawn? If there were any curtains at all. MR LECORDIER The thing is, Mr Chairman, we never go right up to the bedroom window. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Well you went- because we know that you threw your handgrenades through the window, was the curtain - did it have any curtains at the window? If so, were they drawn? MR LECORDIER I can't remember if the curtains were drawn or not. CHAIRPERSON How far away were you from the window when you threw the grenade, more-or-less? If you can just indicate a distance perhaps in this room here. MR LECORDIER I'd say from where I'm sitting to where the cameraman is. CHAIRPERSON About five paces, six paces? MR LECORDIER About that distance. CHAIRPERSON Do you know why the other handgrenade didn't hit the window or go through the window? MR LECORDIER I can't answer that, Judge, because Antonio had thrown the other handgrenade. CHAIRPERSON Do you know where it blew up, did it hit the wall or the garden or miss the house entirely and go into the next-door neighbour's yard or what? MR LECORDIER From what I'd heard it landed outside of the house, Mr Klein's premises. CHAIRPERSON In the garden on the ground? MR LECORDIER In the garden. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Any question arising? FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL Just one minor aspect, thank you. Mr Lecordier, when you decided that you did not want to be under the Security Police' influence in Cape Town and you say you did not want to assist in infiltrating the Unions etc., you had just escaped, in terms of your written statement. Did you say to them you did not want to have anything further to do with them, or did you simply just disappear into nothing so that they could not trace you? MR LECORDIER No, I did not tell them that I did not want to have anything further to do with them, I just thought it's best if I keep quiet and take myself out of Cape Town. MR DEHAL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL CHAIRPERSON Ms Kooverjee? MS KOOVERJEE None thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS KOOVERJEE CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard? MR RICHARD No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior? ADV PRIOR No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lecordier, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. MR LECORDIER Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Dehal? MR DEHAL Mr Chairperson, I was hoping to actually trace Mr Gordon Webster by now. As I said earlier in chambers, I was given a message from a friend of his that he may possibly be here. I don't see him present in the hall. I have nothing further to present at this stage. Perhaps it may be a convenient time now to adjourn till tomorrow morning so that if he does arrive at the hall I could then take up the matter further. CHAIRPERSON Yes, because I think we don't want to wait indefinitely for something that might not occur. How can you establish what's going to happen? MR DEHAL I think that's a fair question and surely we'll have to wait only until about 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. If he doesn't arrive by ten, then I'll propose to place on record what he has told me thusfar. CHAIRPERSON Well I don't know if evidence of that nature can be accepted. MR DEHAL Not in the form of evidence. CHAIRPERSON It would clearly be hearsay. MR DEHAL Indeed, yes. He's not an applicant, he's purely subpoenaed as a witness. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And what is the position regarding the other applicant, Mr Derek McBride? MR DEHAL Ms Kooverjee represents Mr Derek McBride, and I think she would tell you in due course. Perhaps what I can tell you is that Antonio du Preez was also on notice to arrive here. He has not arrived. He called me on the first day the TRC hearings began and he told me that he was ill at home, he told me that he was having difficulty in obtaining leave to avail himself here at these hearings. He asked me to place on record that he confirms, accepts the applicants' applications for amnesty, he does not oppose them and that the versions of McBride, Apelgren etc., he is conformity with. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is there anything else? MR DEHAL Mr Chairperson, insofar as Welile Khumalo is concerned, his also not in a position to avail himself here at these proceedings and has asked me to place on record that he does not oppose the applications for amnesty and confirms the correctness of what the various applicants are saying insofar as they relate to him. That is all actually. That would sum up the applicants I represent and the witnesses, except for Gordon Webster in regard to whom as I've said, if you do not mind, we could wait till 10 o'clock tomorrow. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Kooverjee. MS KOOVERJEE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Insofar as Mr Derek McBride is concerned, he's instructed me that he will withdraw his application for amnesty. That is the position, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Does anybody wish to say anything further? We've heard now that Mr Dehal's asked at this stage for an adjournment until tomorrow morning. Mr Richard? MR RICHARD No, I have nothing to say except that the statements made, until we know whether Mr Gordon Webster gives evidence or doesn't, doesn't take us any further. CHAIRPERSON Yes. So is the position relating to person who you represent who may wish to make a statement or whatever, that they would prefer to do it after the conclusion of any evidence led by the applicants? MR RICHARD After the applicants' evidence is concluded. It may be that Mrs Klein would like to give evidence this afternoon, but let me ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well perhaps you can find out and then we might be able to save some time. We can take a short five minute adjournment and then if you could just let us know, Mr Richard, if she wishes to make a statement or give evidence. Whatever the position, we can proceed. If not, if you'd prefer to do it after the applicants have closed their case as it were, if I can use that terminology, then we'll just come back and adjourn the matter until tomorrow morning. But we'll take a five minute break at this stage for you to take instructions on that point. Thank you. MR RICHARD Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS NO FURTHER RECORDING