amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-20 PRETORIA 6 WILLEM JOHANNES MOMBERG https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53778&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101228_pre_991020.htm WILLEM JOHANNES MOMBERG (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA Mr Momberg, your application is embodied on volume 2, the introduction from page 2 to 32, is that correct? MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOTHA And the incident is contained from page 32, is that correct? MR MOMBERG That is correct. MR BOTHA Do you confirm that? MR MOMBERG Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR BOTHA You have also heard the evidence and the application of Mr Goosen, do you confirm that inasfar as it has regard to you? MR MOMBERG Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR BOTHA Just another aspect. It would seem as if after the deceased, Mr Goosen and Mr Prinsloo went through Rustenburg, you indicate the place where the detonation will take place. MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOTHA Would you please explain to the Committee how it happened. MR MOMBERG Chairperson, through the nature of my work and with reference to a previous application of mine to this Committee, the McKenzie application, I used this road every second weekend for three years, between two and three years, and from a reconnaissance view I knew this place quite well and I knew where there were places which were remote and uninhabited and places where people lived. MR BOTHA And this is the reason why you knew of this specific place. MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOTHA Thank you, Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA CHAIRPERSON Does that end your evidence-in-chief? MR BOTHA That does end it. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Prinsloo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Madam Chair. Mnr Momberg, Mr Prinsloo is well known to you? MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And you knew Mr Prinsloo as a person who was dedicated in his investigation work. MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And insofar as you know this place where this person was eventually blown up, was this also well know to you? MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO So you would indicate this place to Mr Prinsloo because you had that knowledge and not him. MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And there was no secret between yourself and Mr Prinsloo that you would blow up this person? MR MOMBERG No, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And the purpose Mr Momberg, was to - as Mr Prinsloo had already testified, this person was a well trained person and that it was in the interest of the country that he be blown up? MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And you did not do it for any other reason other than that? MR MOMBERG No, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO It was not for any personal gain or out of malice? MR MOMBERG None whatsoever, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And did you agree that this person was alive and he was immobilised in some manner and thereafter he was taken and executed and blown up? MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO According to your version, Mr Momberg, was he unconscious, alive, or can you not say? - when he was blown up. MR MOMBERG Chairperson, I did not inspect any closer before we blew him up to determine whether he was alive, unconscious or dead. MR PRINSLOO And you did not look for any injuries? MR MOMBERG No, I did not look for any injuries, but I did note some injuries to his head when we placed the explosives. MR PRINSLOO Yes, is that injury where you stood under the bridge there? MR MOMBERG No, I speak of at the scene of the explosion scene, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Let us not misunderstand each other. There at the bridge did you see any injuries to him? MR MOMBERG None, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO You have already heard that there was a burn mark on his forehead. MR MOMBERG I've heard the evidence here, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Is it possible that he did indeed have a burn mark and you did not see it? MR MOMBERG It is possible, Chairperson. I can only repeat that I did not see any injury. MR PRINSLOO And you would also not be able to dispute that Mr Prinsloo had beforehand given him sleeping tablets as he has testified? MR MOMBERG No, I cannot, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And insofar as this specific incident is concerned, can you pertinently recall this detail that you met Mr Prinsloo at Compol and not on the road as he has testified, or can you be mistaken? MR MOMBERG I am entirely convinced that we met at Compol, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Why are you so convinced, Mr Momberg? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, purely for the reason that from there we moved with one vehicle and we would not have taken on that road with two vehicles. MR PRINSLOO But according to the evidence, at some stage you must have driven in one vehicle. MR MOMBERG Chairperson, from Compol we drove in one vehicle. MR PRINSLOO According to the evidence which was placed before this Committee, Brig Cronje gave certain instructions. Was it given to you or to Goosen, who was it originally given to? MR MOMBERG The instruction was given to me personally. According to what I heard later the instruction was given just before that to Goosen as well, so the instruction was given to us separately. MR PRINSLOO Where did Brig Cronje give you this instruction? MR MOMBERG In his office in the Compol building, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO How long was this before you saw Capt Prinsloo? MR MOMBERG Approximately two days. MR PRINSLOO What did Brig Cronje tell you? MR MOMBERG Brig Cronje instructed me to assist Sgt Goosen and Capt Prinsloo with the operation in the disposal of a corpse. MR PRINSLOO Did Brig Cronje tell you what was expected of you? MR MOMBERG Negative, Chairperson, he only said that I had to assist them. MR PRINSLOO And what did you understand from that, what did you have to do by assisting them? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, I accepted that the further particulars will be provided by Capt Prinsloo. MR PRINSLOO Did Brig Cronje tell you why you had to participate in this operation? MR MOMBERG No, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO So at that stage you did not know that you were to blow up a corpse. MR MOMBERG Chairperson, as I have already said, Brig Cronje's instruction was that I was to assist with the disposal of a corpse. I assumed that this entailed blowing up or whatever it might entail. MR PRINSLOO Why did you think it was blowing up? MR MOMBERG Because it was my field of experience, I was a trained explosives expert. MR PRINSLOO But there are many other manners in which one can dispose of a corpse. MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO So you just drew that inference? MR MOMBERG As I have already said, Chairperson, it is my field of experience and I accepted that that is what Brig Cronje had in mind. MR PRINSLOO There was a good relationship between yourself and Brig Cronje. MR MOMBERG That's correct. MR PRINSLOO And there was previously a family relation. MR MOMBERG That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And did you at any time at a later stage report back to Brig Cronje and tell him that what you had to do along with Prinsloo was not to blow up a corpse but was to immobilise a person and blow him up? MR MOMBERG No, I did not give any feedback to him, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Why not, Mr Momberg? MR MOMBERG It was not my task, Chairperson, it was the senior member of the operation's task to give feedback. MR PRINSLOO But Mr Momberg, there was a personal relationship between yourself and Mr Cronje at that stage, was it not strange to you that you had an instruction to blow up a corpse and afterwards it went different? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, in an operation nothing goes according to plan and one makes plans on grassroots level. MR PRINSLOO When for the first time was it necessary for you to call up these events as it had happened in your mind? MR MOMBERG During my application for amnesty, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And was that the first time? MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And this was with your fellow applicant, Mr Goosen? MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And in this aspect you spoke to your former Commander, Brig Cronje? MR MOMBERG No, Chairperson, with regard to this specific incident I personally much later had contact with Brig Cronje. MR PRINSLOO Did you have contact with him before you handed your application in? MR MOMBERG No, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO When in this regard did you have contact with him? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, for the first time when we appeared here with regard to other incidents I saw Cronje for the first time in a very long time, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO You have heard the version of Mr Prinsloo where he differs from you. MR MOMBERG That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And the only aspects where you differ from him is the fact where you had met and then what had happened along the road, administering the sleeping tablets and the manner in which he was hit or struck with the spade? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, inherently I differ from Mr Goosen as to where we met. I stand by the fact that it was by the Compol building ...(intervention) ADV MOTATA Prinsloo. MR MOMBERG Oh I beg your pardon, Prinsloo. ... and that we had stopped on the road between Britz and Rustenburg where the coca cola was drunk and with regard to the spade episode, where the person was struck by Prinsloo with a spade. MR PRINSLOO What do you say of the spade incident? What is your evidence? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, while Goosen and I were busy with the final preparations of the explosive device, Prinsloo removed the spade from the boot of the vehicle and struck Mandla two or three times with the sharp edge of the spade on the head. MR PRINSLOO Did you see him striking him with the sharp edge of the spade? MR MOMBERG I looked around when the first blow fell and I saw the consequent two blows. MR PRINSLOO You say that you were assisting Goosen with the final preparations of the explosive device. Would you want to tell me that both of you worked on the preparation of the explosive device? MR MOMBERG That is not what I'm saying. MR PRINSLOO So what are you saying? MR MOMBERG The explosive device was already prepared, it was six mini-limpet mines which were attached to each other with detonators. With regard to the final preparation it was on the correct sorting out of the limpet mine. In the process of packaging in the limpet mines into the bag the wires became entangled and it had to be untangled and thereafter Goosen had to attach the detonator and from there onwards he would work alone with the explosives. MR PRINSLOO So at which stage did Prinsloo strike the man with the spade? MR MOMBERG While we were busy with the explosives. MR PRINSLOO Were you and Goosen of assistance in the removal of the body from the boot? MR MOMBERG Right at the beginning I assisted in the removal of the body from the boot, thereafter I had no contact with the deceased except to help Goosen with the placing. MR PRINSLOO So you had to have someone there to place him on the explosives, who took the body there? MR MOMBERG Prinsloo dragged the body there. MR PRINSLOO So he would know where the place was where he wanted to blow it up? MR MOMBERG He could see where we were busy, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Were there bushes there? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, not bushes as such, it is barren overgrazed land. MR PRINSLOO So are you saying there was no long grass? MR MOMBERG Yes, Chairperson, it was bare overgrazed land. MR PRINSLOO Bare, bare grass? MR MOMBERG Yes, bare overgrazed ground, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And was it safe to have such a bare, bare place? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, that is why I chose the place, Chairperson. Initially I would not have considered causing an explosion in long grass because it could cause a veld fire, and at that stage it was not dangerous there because there was no residential are any closer. MR PRINSLOO Mr Momberg, this driving to Rustenburg, was it your idea? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, no, the course to Rustenburg was Capt Prinsloo's idea. MR PRINSLOO But how did he know that you would be in a place where you regularly moved? MR MOMBERG Capt Prinsloo was aware of the fact that with the handling of McKenzie I had regularly used that exact route to Kopfontein - it has got another name now, Klokweng border post, and that I knew that area quite well. MR PRINSLOO One moment please, Chairperson. This McKenzie that you refer to, was this an informer that you dealt with? MR MOMBERG Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO So how would Mr Prinsloo have known about an informer that you were dealing with, because this would have been done in secret? MR MOMBERG By nature of the activities of Capt Prinsloo's unit, all reports that I gathered from McKenzie would be sent through to him in a processed form. MR PRINSLOO And the fact that you were driving that route, would that appear in the report? MR MOMBERG Any normal person would have been able to infer it. MR PRINSLOO Does it appear in the report, Mr Momberg? MR MOMBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO Does it appear there written "This is the route that I drive every day to McKenzie"? MR MOMBERG No, but mention is made of the border post. MR PRINSLOO But that does not indicate that this is the route that you were driving, Mr Momberg, with all respect. Is that correct? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, there were a limited number of routes that one could follow to the border post. MR PRINSLOO Is it your evidence that you climbed into the vehicle at Compol, drove with Mr Prinsloo on a road which appeared to be the Rustenburg road, stopped under a bridge and then the coke story ensued and from that point onwards you drove again to Rustenburg without offering any input or finding out what was going on? Is that your evidence? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, with regard to the direction of Rustenburg, you must remember that there was a great proportion of the former homeland Bophuthatswana, in the Rustenburg environment and that most of the clandestine operations that we launched were launched in Bophuthatswana territory and therefore it wasn't strange to me that we were going into that territory. MR PRINSLOO Mr Momberg, did you climb into your vehicle at Compol without any prior discussion and simply drive with this man, Mr Prinsloo? Is that what you're saying? MR MOMBERG Yes, that is correct. I did not question him, I knew what we were going to do. My order was clear, the order was to destroy a corpse. I knew that Capt Prinsloo would have a general idea or a precise idea of what was going to happen. It was also not the custom to discuss these things. MR PRINSLOO Well with the exception of custom, did you not discuss any of these matters whatsoever? MR MOMBERG The only thing that we discussed before we stopped on the Britz/Rustenburg road, was that this person was already in the boot of the vehicle and we also discussed whether all our things were ready in order to continue with the operation. MR PRINSLOO Wasn't it said to you that this man was simply tranquillised, that he had taken sleeping tablets? MR MOMBERG No. The first time that we became aware of the fact that he was still alive was when we stopped on the Britz/Rustenburg road. MR PRINSLOO Then for what reason would Prinsloo open the boot on the road there if he was in the boot, for which reason? MR MOMBERG The only reason that I can think of is to give the coca cola to the man so that the drugs could take effect. MR PRINSLOO But he was already in the boot, he had already taken some of these sleeping tablets. For what reason did he open the boot then? MR MOMBERG I cannot speak on behalf of Capt Prinsloo. MR PRINSLOO But then you saw to your amazement that there was a living person in the boot. MR MOMBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO Did you ask him what was going on? MR MOMBERG Chairperson, I accepted that my order was to destroy a corpse, I saw the man and I was surprised. I may use the phrase, I didn't make much of an issue about it because I knew that at one or other point during the evening the man would become a corpse in any case. MR PRINSLOO And you associated yourself with it? MR MOMBERG Yes, I associated myself with it. MR PRINSLOO Did you know at that stage what Brig Cronje had told you, that this would serve a legal purpose which would form part of your express or implied authority within the context of the events of that time? MR MOMBERG I can only reiterate that my order from Brig Cronje was to assist Capt Prinsloo in getting rid of a body. Subsequent to that, when we pulled away after the man had received the coke at the point where we stopped, Capt Prinsloo informed us about who and what the man was and what he had been involved in, and I associated myself with the fact that he was a dangerous terrorist and that he had to be eliminated. MR PRINSLOO This was after he received the coke? MR MOMBERG That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Chairperson, I am not going to put the evidence of Prinsloo once again because it is already on record. I have nothing further, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Alberts? MR ALBERTS I have no questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS No questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr van Heerden? MR VAN HEERDEN No questions, Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN CHAIRPERSON I take it, Mr Botha, you have no re-exam? MR BOTHA No re-examination, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA MR JANSEN I also have no ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen? Sorry about that. MR JANSEN I don't have any questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Momberg, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, who is the next applicant? MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Strydom. You will find his application on page - the pages are quite strangely numbered I must say, but it starts on page 422, the facts of this specific matter in his application. CHAIRPERSON Bundle 1? MR DU PLESSIS Bundle 1, yes.