amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-20 PRETORIA 6 JOHANNES PETRUS ROODT AM5466/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53780&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101228_pre_991020.htm ON RESUMPTION MR MALAN Mr Roodt, your full names for the record please. JOHANNES PETRUS ROODT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Madam Chair, the application of Mr Roodt starts at page 456 of bundle 1 and it carries on to page 465. Mr Roodt, you have studied your application from these pages onwards in its entirely, do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR ROODT Yes, I do. MR DU PLESSIS Do you confirm the correctness? MR ROODT Yes, I do confirm the correctness. MR DU PLESSIS Now Mr Roodt, your version of these events commences on page 456, right at the very bottom. That would be the typed page 25, where you state that Mandla was detained for approximately one week. MR ROODT That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Do you mean on the farm? MR ROODT Yes, on the farm. MR DU PLESSIS And with the arrest of Mandla in Eerstrus, were you present? MR ROODT Yes, I was present. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. And can you recall that he was taken to the Compol building and after that to the farm? MR ROODT Yes, that is correct. We arrested him and he was taken to the Compol building. MR DU PLESSIS You were not involved in any interrogation at the Compol building? MR ROODT No, I was not involved. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. And were you involved in any interrogation of Mandla at the farm? MR ROODT No. MR DU PLESSIS What was the purpose behind your presence on the farm? MR ROODT It was merely to guard Mandla and the camp. MR DU PLESSIS And did you see that Mandla was assaulted on the farm during interrogations? MR ROODT At a certain stage I was absent because I was busy with other work and when I returned I saw that Mandla had been assaulted. MR DU PLESSIS Do you know whether this was after the occasion upon which he was assaulted by Strydom and Crafford? MR ROODT It was after that occasion. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. And then there is just one final question that I want to pose to you. During this period when you were involved in guarding Mandla, did any idea arise within you, or could you have foreseen that Mandla may die in some or other manner? MR ROODT I suspected that if he were to be assaulted any further, he could possibly die. MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, you will see that we haven't applied for murder in this regard and I will also apply for an amendment in the application for murder and I will then argue it. CHAIRPERSON This will be done at an appropriate stage. MR DU PLESSIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON As previously indicated in respect of Mr Strydom. MR DU PLESSIS Yes. As it pleases you. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Alberts? MR ALBERTS I have no examination, thank you, Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON Mr Botha? MR BOTHA Nothing, Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA CHAIRPERSON Any cross-examination, Mr Jansen? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Yes, thank you Chair. Mr Roodt, you state that at a certain stage you were absent while you were busy with other work, can you recall the period of your absence? MR ROODT It was almost two days. It was one day and then the following day I returned in the afternoon. MR JANSEN Very well. And up to that stage there had been no assault on Mr Mbizana. MR ROODT Before I departed there was no assault. MR JANSEN Was there any talk from any person that they wish to assault the person? MR ROODT No, not at all. MR JANSEN In your statement on page 457, where you state that you and two black members were primarily tasked to guard Mandla, you state specifically that you did not participate in the interrogation of Mandla. Would you agree with me that within that milieux of security where there was also a rank structure, it would have been improbable and unheard of for anyone who was tasked with guarding a subject to interrogate someone without instructions or to initiate any form of interrogation? MR ROODT That is correct, the order was to guard him and not to interrogate him. MR JANSEN But with the exception of the individuals from the unit whom you knew, you were aware of the Security Police culture that it was improbable that someone who was merely tasked to guard a person would proceed with interrogation, not to speak of assault. MR ROODT What do you mean by the culture of the Security Police? MR JANSEN Well I am attempting to determine to what extent one could assist with the improbabilities. There was a suggestion which was made by Strydom, that some of the persons who were responsible for guarding him were also responsible for an assault on him. MR ROODT I must just mention that Mandla had been detained for approximately two or three days at that place before our arrival. MR JANSEN Would that you and the two black members? MR ROODT Yes, and W/O Kruger. MR JANSEN And you cannot recall now who those two black members were? MR ROODT I must just state that at that stage I had been with the Security Police for only a month, I didn't know all the members and I didn't even know all the white members. MR JANSEN So you were new there. MR ROODT That is correct. MR JANSEN Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Prinsloo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRINSLOO Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr Roodt, are you aware that Capt Prinsloo interrogated Mandla on that farm? MR ROODT Yes, Capt Prinsloo was there two or three times. He interrogated Mandla. He sat to one side with Mandla and made notes. ADV PRINSLOO Thank you, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Walt? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Roodt, this morning I spoke to you with regard to the application of Mr Kruger which appears on page 259, where I have put it - and I just want to put it for the record, that Mr Kruger states in paragraph 4 that you interrogated, but he will request for this to be amended because he told me this morning that you were one of the persons who was guarding. Is that correct? MR ROODT Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And you also heard the statement which I put on behalf of Mr Kruger, that the persons who were guarding were not permitted to interrogate. MR ROODT That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Madam Chair, may I just rectify that page, 359. Ms van der Walt said 259. MS VAN DER WALT Nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT I have no questions, thank you, Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr van Heerden? MR VAN HEERDEN No questions, Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, do you wish to conduct any re-examination? MR DU PLESSIS I beg your pardon. I have no questions, Madam Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Roodt, you are excused as a witness. MR ROODT Thank you, Madam. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR DU PLESSIS I have no other witnesses, Madam Chair, my witnesses are finished except for Brig Cronje, but I think he's going to testify last. I think that was the arrangement. CHAIRPERSON I was told that there was going to be an arrangement between and amongst counsel as to the order of the applicants to be heard by this Committee, in relation to this incident. MR DU PLESSIS I think the agreement was that my two clients will testify, then the two black members will testify and then Brig Cronje will testify last. That is how I understood it. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN Correct, yes. For a moment I thought seeing that Mr du Plessis is in the swing of things, he may continue. But yes, it was agreed that the two members, either Mr Mathebula or Mr Matjeni would testify now. And we may just as well proceed with Mr Matjeni, he is here. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR JANSEN He will be testifying ... MACHINE SWITCHED OFF