amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-21 PRETORIA 7 DANIEL JACOBUS KRUGER AM5233/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53783&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101228_pre_991021.htm CHAIRPERSON We shall be commencing with the application of Mr Kruger, is that so Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. DANIEL JACOBUS KRUGER (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Kruger your amnesty application appears in bundle 1 from page 355 to 365, or 357. That would be the official application form and the incident for which you are appearing before this Honourable Committee in terms of amnesty, appears from page 358 to 360 and the motivation for, political motivation is from page 365. Where were you stationed during the time of the incident? MR KRUGER At the Security Branch in Compol building, Section C, Pretoria. MS VAN DER WALT And who was your Commander? MR KRUGER Capt. Prinsloo. MS VAN DER WALT You have heard the evidence of the other witnesses. You yourself did not participate in any investigation or interrogation with regard to this person known as Mandla? MR KRUGER That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And such is the information which was conveyed to you, indicated from page 358 paragraph 2 to page 359 paragraph 9. You received this information from whom? This information which is embodied in these pages. MR KRUGER From Capt Prinsloo. MS VAN DER WALT What was your task on the farm when Mandla was detained? MR KRUGER Chairperson, it was merely to guard him, to safeguard him. MS VAN DER WALT Were you aware that he had been abducted? MR KRUGER Yes, I knew about that. MS VAN DER WALT And you were aware that he was not on the farm under legal arrest? MR KRUGER Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Who are the persons who guarded him with you there? MR KRUGER It was Sgt Luddick, Lieut Roodt, Matjeni and Mathebula. MS VAN DER WALT You state in paragraph 4 that Lieut Roodt undertook interrogation, is that an error? MR KRUGER Yes, that is an error. MS VAN DER WALT And do you then request that the Honourable Committee amend this? MR KRUGER Yes. MS VAN DER WALT That it indicates that he simply guarded Mandla? MR KRUGER That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT One morning after you had awoken, you noticed something on the farm, what was it? MR KRUGER Chairperson, Matjeni and Mathebula came to me and told me that this man, Mandla, who was known to me as Mandla, had been burned by certain persons and that I had to come and take a look. I went to look outside. I saw that the man was naked, that he was bound to a water tank, that he had been burned on the forehead, that he had also been burned on the testicles and at the back between the buttocks. MS VAN DER WALT What did you do? MR KRUGER I loosened him and I had Betadine ointment which I applied to his forehead and I asked the other members to apply the ointment to the other parts of his body which had been affected. MS VAN DER WALT What happened to him? MR KRUGER I then let him put on his trousers and he went to sit inside the tent. He said he didn't want to put on his shirt. He was clearly in pain. MS VAN DER WALT Did you have anything further to do with him? MR KRUGER Nothing. MS VAN DER WALT What happened later that day on the farm? MR KRUGER Capt Prinsloo arrived there. He was very upset. He chased all of us away from there and I drove. That is all that I know about the incident. MS VAN DER WALT I note that you state in paragraph 7 that you went to sleep that evening and that the following morning Mandla was no longer on the farm. What do you say about that paragraph? MR KRUGER That is not correct. MS VAN DER WALT Why do you wish for it to be amended? When did you realise that you had made an error? MR KRUGER After I had consulted with you and studied my affidavit, I saw that there was an error and that this was not the truth. MS VAN DER WALT On that same day, you were chased away from the farm. MR KRUGER Yes, indeed. MS VAN DER WALT And you have no further knowledge of what happened to Mandla subsequently? MR KRUGER No. MS VAN DER WALT And do you then request that the Honourable Committee grant you amnesty for any offence which may emanate from the actions, such as the assault which you knew about, and the abduction of Mandla, is that correct? MR KRUGER Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT As well as for any delictuable accountability which may emanate therefrom? MR KRUGER That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Nothing further, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms van der Walt. Mr Botha? MR BOTHA No questions, Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA CHAIRPERSON That will be in respect of Mr Goosen and Mr Momberg? MR BOTHA That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr du Plessis. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Madam Chair. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Mr Kruger, as I understand your evidence now, it differs from what was stated yesterday that you would testify, or that it was put that you would testify that you loosened him the following morning, and now your evidence has differed. MS VAN DER WALT There is no difference in his evidence, that is still what he says. MR DU PLESSIS Did you loosen him the following morning? MR KRUGER Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Did he spend the entire night bound to the water tank? MR KRUGER I assume so, I cannot say. MR DU PLESSIS You were not present during the interrogation when he was burned with a log? MR KRUGER No. MR DU PLESSIS So you don't know what took place there? MR KRUGER That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Madam Chair, my instructions from my client and especially Brig Cronje, are that we do not oppose Mr Kruger's application and therefore, apart from pointing out this one discrepancy, I'm not of a view to carry on cross-examining Mr Kruger. As it pleases you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Jansen. MR JANSEN Thank you Chair. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Mr Kruger, your version differs only in one aspect from that of my client and that is the fact of whether or not you were involved in the official arrest. I don't wish for you to concede that you are mistaken, but would you concede that you have to recall an incident which took place many years ago in terms of your affidavit and that you may have used persons like Mr Prinsloo to refresh your memory? MR KRUGER Yes, that is correct. I may have been mistaken. It is all hearsay. I simply heard it. MR JANSEN Thank you Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo. ADV PRINSLOO No questions, thank you Madam Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert. MR JOUBERT Thank you Madam Chair. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Just the same aspect as what Mr Jansen has discussed with you with regard to the arrest and Mr Mathebula. I suppose the same with the application with Mr Mathebula, you simply heard about the arrest, it is based on hearsay? MR KRUGER That is correct. MR JOUBERT Thank you Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr Van Heerden. MR VAN HEERDEN No questions, Madam Chair, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp. MR STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Chairlady. NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Kruger, when you state on page 359 paragraph 4 that Mr Mbizana was intensively interrogated by Capt Crafford, Lieut Jaap van Jaarsveld, you've just conceded that Mr Roodt was not there, how do you know of this intensive interrogation? MR KRUGER Chairperson, all of this is hearsay, I was not present, I did not see it. These are things which the people who were there guarding with me, told me, I didn't see these things myself. CHAIRPERSON Who told you? MR KRUGER Matjeni or Mathebula, I'm not certain which of the two, but both of them were heavily upset. It was clear to me that this was the first time that they had witnessed something like this. CHAIRPERSON The ointment, the Betadine Ointment that you applied on Mr Mbizana, where did you get it? MR KRUGER Chairperson I had a cut, I am a diabetic, I use the ointment myself, and I simply applied it to him because I had it on me. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are excused, Mr Kruger. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. The next applicant is Brig Cronje, Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON And that will be the last applicant in respect of this incident? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct.