amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-25 PRETORIA 9 OASIS MOTEL https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53788&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101228_pre_991025.htm ADV STEENKAMP Madam Chair, all the legal representatives in the next matter, for Oasis Motel, are ready and present, and I would suggest and submit that we are ready to start immediately with the next matter, thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, are we in a position to commence with the next matter? ADV STEENKAMP We are indeed. CHAIRPERSON Yes. The next application to be considered by the same Panel relates to the applications of the following persons - the application of Mr I. Coetzee, the application of Mr W.H.J. Coetzee, Mr L. de Jager, Mr W.J. Loots, Mr M.A. Olifant, Mr A. Pretorius, Mr ... ADV STEENKAMP No, Madam Chair, he is not an applicant. CHAIRPERSON Those are the applicants who we will sit to consider their application in relation to the matter known as the Oasis Motel incident. The legal representatives who will be appearing in these matters, are requested to kindly state their names for the record. MR VISSER May it please you Madam Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, my name is Louis Visser. I am instructed by the Attorneys Wagener Muller to appear for the following persons - Gen I. Coetzee, who is item 5 of the cover sheet of Bundle 2, item 6 is Col W.H.J. Coetzee, 7, Col L. de Jager, 8, Brig W.J. Loots and Col A. Pretorius who is in Bundle 1. We will in due course refer you to the correct pages of the Bundles. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser, we haven't seen you for some time. MR VISSER Yes. CHAIRPERSON We again welcome you and hope that you have now recovered. MR VISSER Thank you very much, it is very kind of you Chairperson. May I add that my - how things have changed having observed the procedure here this morning. I just hope that I can adapt quickly enough to the changed circumstances. CHAIRPERSON I have no doubt you will. MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson, Lamey of the firm Rooth and Wessels Attorneys, Pretoria. I represent Mr Manuel Olifant in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Visser and Mr Lamey, have you decided who is going to kick-start the process? MR LAMEY Chairperson, it appears that Mr Visser will start with his clients. May I just enquire, there is a supplementary statement of Mr Olifant which has been given to the Evidence Leader as well as Mr Visser, do you have copies of that available? I do have extra copies. CHAIRPERSON Yes, a supplementary statement of Mr A. Olifant has been handed up to the Committee. MR LAMEY As it pleases you. CHAIRPERSON I hope the same copy has been given to Mr Visser on behalf of his clients? MR LAMEY Yes, it has. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER ADDRESSES Yes, thank you Madam Chairperson, we have received a copy of that statement. Chairperson, may I then kick off with, if you will allow me a brief introduction. I have had the pleasure of appearing before Commissioner Motata once before, but that was in different circumstances, where I sat on the other side of the table, objecting to the application, and I am afraid that he has not been exposed to matters as we raise them during matters in which we acted for applicants. I understand from my Attorney, Mr Wagener, however that when he appeared before this Committee last week, he handed up to the Committee the freshest edition of the document, called "General Background to Amnesty Applications". Chairperson, perhaps for the benefit of Commissioner Motata, very briefly on the 5th of February of this year, a meeting was held under the Chairmanship of Justice Wilson where Commissioner Malan was also present, where all legal representatives were employed to attempt to think of ways and means to be implemented in order to shorten the process of the amnesty applications. What we did as a result of that, we drafted two documents Chairperson. One is this "General Background" and this general background Chairperson, deals with a wide variety of issues pertaining to the conflict of the past. We are happy to say at this stage that the Amnesty Committees before whom we have appeared, including Committees chaired by you Madam Chairperson, have accepted this document and it is therefore not necessary for applicants as we had to do in the past, to deal with all the background circumstances, apart from merely handing up this document, and it serving as part of the evidence before you. May I in that regard then ask you Chairperson, whether you will consider that document which I have just referred to as Exhibit A also in this case, and to be taken into account when you consider the amnesty applications of the present applicants. Chairperson, if I may refer you to Bundle 2 before you, at page 187 of Bundle 2, there was supposed to have been a ... CHAIRPERSON What page Mr Visser? MR VISSER Page 187 Chairperson, of Bundle 2, there was supposed to have been an annexure attached. Due to some problem apparently, the annexure which is an affidavit of Wikus Johannes Loots, who is also an applicant before you today, was only attached in part. You will see it starts with page 1, typed page 1 and then goes to page 10 and 11 and then 39. We have arranged Chairperson, for the full annexure to be duplicated and to be made available to you. I am not quite certain what the easy way would be to deal with it. Perhaps it could simply be marked Exhibit B. The importance of this document is that it deals really with the position of Botswana and the position of Botswana vis-a-vis the conflict that was raging within the country. I am not going to deal with it in detail, but it is now placed before you and perhaps Madam Chair, it may be marked Exhibit B, if that is in order with you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that will be in order, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Chairperson, lastly as far as documents ... MR MALAN Sorry, just for the record, Mr Visser, that is a statement as an annexure to the application, it is not an affidavit in itself? MR VISSER Chairperson, I hear what Commissioner Malan says, I was under the impression that it was an affidavit. MR MALAN I don't think it is that important, since it is ... MR VISSER Indeed it is not, but he will confirm this in any event. In fact before Madam Chair, before yourself, in the Silent Valley matter, this document has already been dealt with by Brig Loots and confirmed. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER But we will just do that again. CHAIRPERSON For purposes of completeness in so far as this incident is concerned? MR VISSER That is correct Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON And having regard to the fact that I was not sitting with the same Panel then as I am now. MR VISSER That is correct Chairperson, yes, from that point of view. Chairperson, then the second document to which I referred to earlier, that we drafted in view of the, or as a result of undertakings given on the 5th of February, was a summary of the legal arguments which we presented to the Amnesty Committees before whom we appeared right from the word go. You will recall Chairperson, that in the beginning it was an exasperating about 180 pages, that had been reduced and again, Madam Chair, you have seen the abbreviated version which deals in the main with the background again with the conflict and I must say, is largely based on what you now have in front of you as Exhibit A. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER I don't know whether Commissioner Motata has had insight in that document, but if he hasn't, we can produce, we can produce one and let him have that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER Which will circumvent the necessity of having to argue that and of course, if there is any question that Commissioner Motata has regarding either Exhibit A or the written argument to which I have just referred, he could perhaps pass on his concerns or questions to me and I can deal with them at any stage, either today or later, it doesn't matter Chairperson. Chairperson, then lastly if I may, as we usually do, we have prepared a summary of the evidence of each of the applicants for whom we appear and those have been handed to you in the form of statements and there are five of them Chairperson. May I ask you to give them exhibit numbers immediately, so that we don't get confused, and if I may suggest that the statement of Willem Helm Johannes Coetzee be marked Exhibit C. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER The next one being Anton Pretorius, that could be Exhibit D. Then Lodewyk de Jager would be Exhibit E, Ignatius Coetzee, would be Exhibit F, and the last one Wikus Johannes Loots, would be Exhibit G. To explain the order of what we have just placed before you Chairperson, Coetzee as per Exhibit C and Pretorius as per Exhibit D were the lesser ranking officers who had more to do with the gathering of intelligence during this period of time and the passing on of that information. They were under the direct command of Col Lodewyk de Jager, which explains why he is in the third place and all three of them were under the command of Gen Ignatius Coetzee as per Exhibit F. They were all attached to the Soweto Security Branch Chairperson, whilst Brig Loots was attached to Western Transvaal Security Branch. Chairperson, if you will allow me just to by way of one word of explanation, to understand this particular application, one must bear in mind that this was really a Special Forces operation, not a Security Force operation. What happened here and this is the evidence that you will hear or that is set out in the statements, is that acting upon information received, from an informer of Soweto, which is referred to as SWT180, Special Forces, we presume Chairperson, obtained instructions and authorisation from their Commanding Officers in the South African Defence Force to do this operation and what happened was that Brig Loots in his Commanding capacity in the Western Transvaal and Gen Ignatius Coetzee in his capacity as Commander of Soweto, were asked to assist. You will hear that the part played by all the applicants before you here, including that of Mr Olifant, were in a supporting role. My Attorney just asks me to make it absolutely clear that the Special Forces were of course a Defence Force unit, not a Security Police unit. Chairperson, with those introductions, may I call the first witness, Willem Helm Johannes Coetzee, who is available, has no objection to taking the oath and he would wish to give his evidence in Afrikaans? CHAIRPERSON You will be calling your witnesses in the order we have now marked the exhibits? MR VISSER Exactly in that order Chairperson. Yes, exactly in that order. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WILLEM HELM JOHANNES COETZEE (sworn states) MR MALAN Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, you are an applicant for amnesty for any offence or delict which was committed before, during or after incidents that took place in Leeuwpark and the Oasis Motel in Gaberone, Botswana during approximately August or September 1987, during which there was a conspiracy and or an attempt to murder certain persons whom you mention in Exhibit C, those would be one Mark Shope and or one Lambert Maloyi and or one MK Search and or one MK Pule and or one MK Sipho and or MK Jackie, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Your application appears from page 140 to 154 of Bundle 2 of the documents which have been served before the Committee, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And you deal specifically with this incident from page 143 to 150, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Subject to certain explanations and elaborations and possible amendments which you will refer to in your evidence as set out in Exhibit C, do you confirm the content of that application of yours, as I have just referred to it in Bundle 2? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER In Bundle 2, you have answered paragraph 7 with the answer "not applicable", both with 7(a) and 7(b) of your amnesty application on page 140, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER What I mean is page 141? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Where you state "not applicable" and "not applicable" is that pertaining to the question of whether or not you were a supporter or a member of a political organisation and if so, in what capacity, would "not applicable" be incorrect there? MR COETZEE That is so. MR VISSER Were you a member or a supporter of any political organisation? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Which organisation? MR COETZEE The National party. MR VISSER And you were a regular supporter? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Madam Chair, may I move for an amendment? Chairperson, you might recall that on many occasions in the past, we have explained how it came about, it is really a mistaken reading of the questions, which gave rise to a whole hoard of people saying "not applicable" where in fact they were all supporters of the National Party. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we take judicial notice of an in-depth application moved by your Instructing Attorney only last week before us, in respect of a different matter. MR VISSER Yes. CHAIRPERSON But the same reasons I think have already been explained and advanced by Mr Coetzee, in relation to this incident as well. That application is granted, Mr Visser. MR VISSER As it pleases you, Madam Chairperson. Mr Coetzee, a document has been served before the Committee which is called Exhibit C, do you have that document before you? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Is that document a document which you have compiled after thorough consultation with your legal representatives and is this the evidence that you wish to place before this Committee with regard to your knowledge and share in the relevant application? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER In Exhibit C, you refer to Exhibit A which has also been served before the Committee. Are you capable according to your own knowledge and or reliable knowledge, to confirm the information which is contained in that document? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER You have previously given evidence before other Amnesty Committees, you set that out on page 1(b) of Exhibit C, do you also confirm this? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And furthermore, you rely upon the findings as mentioned by you in (c), (d) and (e) and you request that this also be considered in the evaluation of your amnesty application, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER On page 2, you set out as an introduction what your work and share was in the collection of information in Soweto during 1986 and further, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER In 1986/1987 your rank was that of Captain? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And you were attached to the Intelligence Unit of the Security Branch in Soweto? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER You state there that Gen Ignatius Coetzee was then the Divisional Commander? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER And the Head of your unit was Col de Jager? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER And that Lt-Col Anton Pretorius who was then a Lieutenant, directly served under your command? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Chairperson, if I may interrupt myself, we have and I hope it is in order for me to mention that, we have been informed that the Committee has reached the state where it does not require evidence regarding the background to any extent any longer, and that it would be in order for the witnesses merely to confirm what they have placed on paper before you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER If my understanding of that is correct Chairperson, I may say that in Exhibit C as in other of the affidavits, a fairly full statement is made as to the involvement of the witnesses and what their particular tasks were in the Security Police at the time, and perhaps Chairperson, with your leave, in order to save time, I could possibly ask the witness just to confirm that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, yes. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We would appreciate that. MR VISSER Yes, in fact my Attorney just points out that in the pre-trial minute, in paragraph 9, that was held on some date or other, the 8th of October it seems. That has also been confirmed. Colonel, you have set out that since the beginning of the 1980's you were involved in tactical and strategical combat of the terrorist onslaught? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And you were involved in all the organisations and sub-organisations of the liberation movements and other political groupings within the country who had entered the struggle against the government and by implication, the National Party which implemented the policy of apartheid in the former era, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And you set them out in paragraph 3 and you continued to say that in order to penetrate these organisations. You established an extensive intelligence network and when I say you, I mean the Intelligence Unit of Soweto and that you had various informers and deep-cover agents which you handled also in your personal capacity? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER In paragraph 5 you state that you usually acted in a court oriented manner and that you carried out the regular policing actions as they were expected of regular policemen? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER But that pressure was exerted on you due to the political violence which reigned all over the country, and then also particularly in Soweto, Tembisa, Daveyton, Wattville and Actonville where you operated? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Sorry Chairperson, I am just reminded that it is already quarter past eleven. If you want to take the tea adjournment, I am quite happy to break at this point. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Visser, unless obviously you want to have a short adjournment, we thought we had made arrangements with our Evidence Leader to convey to you that we will not be taking any short adjournment, unless the witness requires it or the legal representative so requests. MR VISSER Yes, I wasn't aware of that. Perhaps Mr Steenkamp just didn't tell me about it. CHAIRPERSON But if it becomes necessary for you to have an adjournment, just make us aware and we will give you one.. MR VISSER No, no, we can go on. Yes. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MR VISSER We are indebted to you, thank you Madam Chairperson, we would prefer to go on. Then from paragraph 8 onwards, you have summarised what your experience was from 1981 onwards and you refer specifically to the establishment of the advance detachments in terms of the four pillars of the struggle of the ANC/SACP alliance and what it all involved? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Do you then confirm all the information which you have provided for background up to page 5, paragraph 20? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Then with regard to Botswana, have you studied this section in Exhibit A properly? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And do you agree with what is stated in Exhibit A, with regard to Botswana? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Do you also confirm that there was close co-operation between the Western Transvaal Security Branch and the Security Branch of Soweto, due to the fact that many of the infiltrations which you experienced in Soweto, came to you via Botswana through the Western Transvaal? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Now perhaps from paragraph 21 onwards, you could submit the section below the heading "Leading Factors and Circumstances to the Current Incident", because I don't believe the Committee has heard any evidence about this incident previously, this would be page 5, paragraph 21. If you could address this. MR COETZEE During 1987 the Soweto Intelligence Unit by means of an informer, SWT180 and various other deep-cover agents and informers, succeeded in successfully infiltrating an underground MK structure in Botswana. I was the handler of SWT180 and Col Pretorius and Const Olifant were his co-handlers. MR VISSER Could I just interrupt you, is it correct that on both the local and international level of threat, it struck you to be of great significance regarding what this structure or group of people in Botswana were busy doing? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Is it correct that this structure as far as your information went, in paragraph 23, consisted of these persons who are involved in this amnesty application that you are applying for today? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER They were Lambert Maloyi, Mark Shope, MK Search, MK Sipho, MK Pule and MK Jackie? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER In paragraph 24 you have summarised what they were occupied with, that would have been recruitment, assistance... MR MALAN Mr Visser, I don't wish to interrupt you unnecessarily, but most of this information is embodied within the primary application. If you could be brief and avoid repetition, I would appreciate it, because all of this has been confirmed already. Rather focus on that which you think might not be in the main application and submit that to us, but for the rest of it, it has been confirmed already. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson, for that indication. Mr Coetzee, as it appears in your main application, there may perhaps be a measure of confusion regarding what exactly the idea was with the operation at the end of the day, because you refer to ICU's in your application and the question which arises is whether or not these Industrial Combat Units were actually the reason why the operation which is of relevance to this application, was ultimately launched. Is it correct that in as far as it regarded your information, this establishment of the ICU's was actually en extension of the activities of Umkhonto weSizwe? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER And that this was simply the opening of a further terrain by means of which the commission of violence and political violence could be launched in the RSA from Botswana by means of MK? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Then that deals with paragraphs 25 and further, up to paragraph 35. This information which you collected was conveyed on many occasions at Information Management meetings and it was distributed to persons and Branches of the Security Branch who had a vested interest in it? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Then there was a meeting in Potchefstroom and during this meeting which you have stated in paragraph 36, certain persons were present and what is significant is that Commandant Charl Naude of Special Forces of the South African Defence Force was present there, and it was there that a decision was made to take certain action or at least certain action was discussed? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Against these persons to whom you have previously referred? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Whose operation would it have been? MR COETZEE The Defence Force. MR VISSER And would the Western Transvaal and Soweto Security Branch fulfil any role in this operation? MR COETZEE Yes, a supportive role. MR VISSER Very well, a supportive role? Did you then receive such orders from Gen Ig Coetzee via Col de Jager who gave you an instruction to give assistance as and when Special Forces would require it? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER was one of the aspects of that assistance the fact that with the assistance of SWT180 an attempt was made to contact these persons upon two occasions in Botswana? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER There are actually two incidents. The one is the incident at Leeuwpark which was an abortive incident, is that correct? MR COETZEE yes. MR VISSER And the other was the incident at the Oasis Motel which was also abortive as we are aware? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And in both these cases, did you have any knowledge of the finer detail of the execution of the operation? MR COETZEE No Chairperson. MR VISSER Then you also deal with the first incident at Leeuwpark, paragraph 39 and 40 on page 9 and then the second attempt at the Oasis Motel at you know the facts from paragraph 41 and further, up to and including 52, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Then in conclusion you have also referred to the position of SWT180 and what happened to him. He was arrested with a vehicle containing weapons which he was transporting to the RSA on behalf of MK? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER He was then exposed by someone in Zambia and he was then taken up in a camp by the ANC? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Was he later released? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER SWT180, where is he today? MR COETZEE He has passed away recently. MR VISSER Do you know what the circumstances of his death were? MR COETZEE No. I have heard that they were medical. MR VISSER Is it correct as you have stated it on page 12, how you saw your role and action during the struggle of the past and is it also correct what you have stated in paragraph 61 and further, that this represents your action and the political objectives upon which you acted? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER The reason why you believed that what you did was expected of you as a policeman, in service as a policeman, and that this fell within your express or implied authorisation? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Consequently you request amnesty as we have already set out in the beginning with regard to these persons and this would then include conspiracy and attempt to murder these persons, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Is it also correct that Mr Olifant with your knowledge crossed the RSA border to Botswana with false documentation and also returned? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And for your share in that, you also request amnesty? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Or for any other offence or unlawful deed which may have been committed by you during this operation? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Just to state it clearly, no person was killed or injured during this operation as far as you are aware? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Thank you Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Lamey, do you have any questions to put to Col Coetzee? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, just shortly Madam Chair. Mr Coetzee, I have only just received this document and I have not studied all aspects of the document, it would appear to me that there isn't actually any dispute between you and my client, Mr Olifant. There is just something that I wish to be certain of. Mr Olifant, as far as you know, was not involved in the first action at Leeuwpark, is that correct? MR COETZEE Not according to me. Not according to me, Chairperson. MR LAMEY There at the Security Branch and the Intelligence Unit you also functioned on a strictly need to know principle? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR LAMEY My instructions from Mr Olifant are that before he received instructions from Pretorius to go to Botswana, he didn't really know what it was all about. He received these instructions to go to Botswana and he had to make hotel room reservations there and so forth and once he had done all of this, and when he returned he first came to this farm between Kopfontein and Zeerust near the border, where he met the other Security Branch members as well. Can you comment on that in any way? MR COETZEE It is possible Chairperson. MR LAMEY Then he does not have any specific knowledge of the persons who were the targets, he only realised later that there was an operation under way, but he did not know which individuals were the targets. It would appear that I am experiencing constant problems with my microphone. MR COETZEE I confirm that he was not aware of who the individuals were, Chairperson. MR MALAN I wonder if I could make this easier for Mr Lamey. Did you have any opportunity to study Mr Olifant's application? MR COETZEE Yes, I do believe so. MR MALAN Is there any dispute that you have with Mr Olifant regarding anything that he states in his application? MR COETZEE No. MR VISSER Mr Chairperson, perhaps I should be of assistance to my learned friend. There is one aspect, Mr Olifant states in his further statement - Chairperson, should this be marked Exhibit H perhaps? As it pleases you. He states that when he, Olifant, was in Botswana, he communicated with Col Pretorius and among others, that he was also instructed at a certain point to dial a certain number in Soweto or in the vicinity of Soweto, he stated another place's name, but it was here on the Rand, Westonaria, and that he spoke to Peter Lingeni, paragraph 7 Chairperson, of Exhibit H and that he received his orders from that point onwards. In Exhibit C, page 10, paragraph 45 you have set out what your share was in the operation with regard to the Oasis Motel namely that you manned a communications point in Soweto where SWT180 would contact you, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And then on your turn, you would contact Pretorius who was in Nietverdiend in Western Transvaal and that he in turn would inform Special Forces and the Security Branch about what the position was? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Now according to your recollection, we know this is a long time ago, but according to your recollection, from whom would Mr Olifant have received his orders if he had contacted Soweto? MR COETZEE From me. MR VISSER Which telephone did you have at that time? MR COETZEE A car phone. MR VISSER Were you constantly available on this phone if contact needed to be established with you from Botswana? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER That is the only point which we could pick up which is of any consequence in the evidence of Olifant and Col Coetzee, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, the ball is still in your court. If you feel that there are any issues which are relevant for you to put to Mr Coetzee, which differs with the version that is going to be given by Mr Olifant, you may proceed to put those issues to him. MR LAMEY Might I just get some clarity from Mr Coetzee on this paragraph, that the version of Mr Olifant is as stated in the supplementary statement. Did it operate as such that the instructions would indirectly be conveyed to Mr Olifant via Mr Lingeni from Soweto or that vicinity? MR COETZEE That may be so, but I cannot recall because the communications point was controlled by me and it was very important to manage the entire operation from a coordinatory perspective in conjunction with the other persons who were already on the farm. MR LAMEY But from the communications point, you also had contact with Pretorius? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR LAMEY But it is possible that the communication with Mr Olifant could have been relayed by means of somebody else? MR COETZEE Yes, the possibility exists Chairperson. MR LAMEY Thank you, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lamey. Mr Steenkamp, do you have any questions to put to Mr Coetzee? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan, do you have any questions to put to Mr Coetzee? MR MALAN I have no questions, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata, do you have any questions to put to Mr Coetzee? ADV MOTATA I have no questions, thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee, for how long were you handling SWT180? MR COETZEE For quite some time Chairperson, approximately three years. CHAIRPERSON This incident occurred some time in 1987, would you say that you had already been his handler for a year or so prior to this incident? MR COETZEE I would say approximately three years. CHAIRPERSON Prior to the incident taking place? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee, before excusing you, I don't think, let me not be presumptuous, Mr Visser, do you wish to re-examine? MR VISSER You would have been correct to be presumptuous, I have no questions, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Coetzee, you are excused as a witness. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Madam Chair, may I call Col Anton Pretorius. His exhibit number is Exhibit D.