amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-25 PRETORIA 9 ANTON PRETORIUS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53789&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101228_pre_991025.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes. Whilst we are busy with the exhibits, maybe we can allocate a number to Mr Olifant's supplementary statement, as Exhibit H, just for convenience sake, so that if you want to refer to it, you can refer to it as an exhibit. MR LAMEY As it pleases you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it will be Exhibit H. MR LAMEY May I just beg leave to hand up the original which is still with me, to you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. We shall now proceed to hear Mr Pretorius, Mr Anton Pretorius. ANTON PRETORIUS (sworn states) MR MALAN Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Pretorius, you are also an amnesty applicant for the current incident? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR VISSER Your application can be found in Bundle 1 from pages 271 to 312 and you deal with this particular incident from pages 288 to 296? Do you confirm the content of your amnesty application subject to your evidence which you will deliver today? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR VISSER You also request with request that the Amnesty Committee grant you an amendment with regard to paragraphs 7(a) and 7(b) to read "National Party" and "supporter", is that correct? MR PRETORIUS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Chairperson, may we move for such an application on the same grounds as you have referred to before? CHAIRPERSON So granted, Mr Visser. MR VISSER May it please you Chairperson. In Exhibit D you refer to Exhibit A, have you studied this document and do you confirm the contents thereof as far as you are aware? MR PRETORIUS Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Furthermore this morning you also heard the evidence of Col Coetzee, he was your immediate Commander in Soweto during 1986/1987 is that correct? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR VISSER And we are also now aware who was the superior Commanders, de Jager and Ignatius Coetzee, is that correct? MR PRETORIUS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER With regard to the general background, you refer to the written amnesty application, Exhibit C of Col Coetzee and you mention the paragraphs in your paragraph 4 on page 3, is that correct? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR VISSER And with regard to the background to the current incidents, do you concur with his evidence as you have set it out in paragraph 5 and you also provide the paragraph references to Exhibit C with regard to that incident, is that correct? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR VISSER On page 4 you have also referred to the meeting at Potchefstroom during which you were also present. Whose operation was this actually? The operation with regard to Leeuwpark and the Oasis Motel? MR PRETORIUS It was Special Forces from the South African Defence Force. MR VISSER Did you accept that they had received instructions to do so and what were your instructions? MR PRETORIUS To serve as a support to the action. MR VISSER Were you a co-handler of SWT180? MR PRETORIUS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And for how long had you known him before 1987? MR PRETORIUS Approximately three years from the first day that he was recruited. MR VISSER And from the first day that he was recruited, did you also act as his co-handler? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR VISSER Very well. On page 5 you dealt with the first attempt at Leeuwpark. As I understand you, your contribution and the contribution of the other members with the exception of SWT180 was quite small with regard to the first incident? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR VISSER And then on page 5 you have also dealt with the second attempt, that would be at the Oasis Motel. MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR VISSER In Exhibit H Mr Olifant who is also an applicant, has set out his recollections regarding what took place on ground-level there in Botswana. You yourself were not in Botswana, is that correct? MR PRETORIUS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And with regard to your recollections and impressions being different to that of Mr Olifant, are you prepared to concede that he is probably correct and you are probably incorrect because you were not there personally? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR VISSER Among others for example, you were under the impression that two rooms in the Oasis Motel had been rented, but that only one had been loaded with explosives and according to his recollection, both were loaded with explosives and other aspects of a more inferior significance perhaps, regarding his movements and so forth, and his passports and such types of things. Do you accept that what he says is probably correct and that you recollection may be mistaken in this regard? MR PRETORIUS Yes, I accept this. MR VISSER You then set out your own involvement as you can recall, which is then also subject to the concession that you have made with regard to Mr Olifant's evidence from page 5 onwards, and you also deal very briefly with SWT180 where you confirm that shortly after this incident at the Oasis Motel, he was arrested in Bophuthatswana and then transported to Zambia and detained there but later released. MR PRETORIUS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You then also confirm on page 9 your political motive and what you thought your duties as a policeman were, during the struggle of the past, and then you also request amnesty also for your share in the conspiracy and the attempt with regard to the persons that you have mentioned in Exhibit D, your attempt to murder these persons in Botswana? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR VISSER And any other offence or delict which may emanate from your involvement in these events? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR VISSER Thank you Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Lamey, do you have any questions to put to Mr Pretorius? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Just to make sure about one aspect Chairperson. Mr Pretorius, you have studied Exhibit A as you have already testified with regard to the version of Mr Olifant? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR LAMEY I just wanted to be certain, in paragraph 8 on page 6 of your supplementary application, paragraph (d), I don't know whether or not it is your intention to create this impression, you refer to the planning and the information that you were involved in but that this was not necessarily anything that Olifant knew about. You state there that Olifant would assist Special Forces with regard to planning beforehand. My instructions from Olifant are that he received an instruction from you to depart for Zeerust and then he received instructions with regard to hotel room reservations and so forth, beyond Zeerust, he did not have the broader picture about which everything was about. MR PRETORIUS That is correct. We ourselves, didn't even know that Const Olifant would be required by Special Forces. On the contrary, they requested assistance from us in the form of a person who could assist them. MR LAMEY And after he arrived in Botswana, he understood that there would be someone who would meet him there and he referred to a British person, someone with a British accent by the name of Peter, would that have been the operative who would have met him there? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. It was only after Olifant was in Botswana that I sent the message through to him via telephone that he would meet someone and that he had to assist this person. MR LAMEY Very well, that is in line with my instructions, I have nothing further, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lamey. Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA None, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Visser? MR VISSER None, thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER MR VISSER May the witness be excused? CHAIRPERSON Mr Pretorius, you are excused as a witness. WITNESS EXCUSED